Beethoven is the Best Composer, Change my Mind

hashcash (63) · 6 years ago

I saw this post more than hour ago. I started by searching more on Beethoven online. The moment I started the search I knew I wasn't going to be able to say anything of value to the discussion and definitely not anything that'll make a man change his mind.

Gave up in frustration and moved onto another post and made a relevant comment there. After that I went to Beethoven's Wikipedia page and started reading took me some time to cover a substantially relevant portion of it. Still gained nothing in terms of forming an informed opinion myself.

Read few other posts and made a few comments and again came back to Beethoven. My mind wasn't simply ready to drop it. I watched this video:

-in order to understand what Beethoven's compositions were like. After checking out the video for till around 22 minute mark without success.

To vent the building up frustration read another post and made another comment. Now that my mind was a bit more focused I decided to write about what I did for the last hour and a half in order get to some semblance of what Beethoven's symphonies and his work mean to the music world. As you can see I failed and this comment is a pretty much the documentation of the process of my failure.

cmp2020 (72) · 6 years ago (edited)

It takes a lot of time and experience to form an opinion like that. If you'd like to read about Beethoven's life and 10 of my favorite works by him, here is an article I wrote last December. Thank you for taking the time to try to form an opinion before commenting! Anyway, here is the post:
https://steemit.com/music/@cmp2020/10-of-beethoven-s-compositions-in-honor-of-his-birthday

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classical-radio (65) · 6 years ago (edited)

Big call here!Beethoven single handedly caused the shift between the classical era and the romantic.
I not a fan of a great man view of history, I would suggest that CPE Back and many others also did their part!

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bengy (73) · 6 years ago

In general, I would agree that Beethoven did much to shift the course of music, but I would say that he was a product of the shift rather than single-handedly causing it.

Beethoven single handedly caused the shift between the classical era and the romantic.

I would argue that CPE Bach did just as much if not more. Also, the music of Schubert I would argue straddle the divide just as much as Beethoven's, although he does appear a little bit after Beethoven. His early works are very much Classical in style (such as the violin sonatas), but his later works are most definitely a Romantic style ( such as the C major string Quintet).

His music shook the foundations of classical music by incorporating rhythmic, structural, harmonic, and melodic innovations that were unheard of before his time.

There are many lesser known composers that were disrupting the "expected" Classical conventions. Zelenka was a Baroque composer that has some wildly interesting shifts in harmony. Likewise, CPE Bach would also had some really odd ideas. Even earlier, Les Elemens by Rebel is famed for it's unexpected beginning harmony.

He managed to surpass even losing his hearing towards the end, and wrote one of the most influential symphonies ever despite it.

Okay, I'll concede this one!

However, I would blame him for destroying the string quartet as a genre. The later string quartet (despite being phenomenal works) led the cello higher and higher, and in the intervening centuries, I would say that the string quartet has become too treble heavy for my taste. On the other hand, this has led to some pretty amazing sextets or larger...

I'm not sure I've written this in a way that will change your mind though, I'm pretty tired and I'm not sure it is all too coherent!

cmp2020 (72) · 6 years ago (edited)

Thank you for this comment. I would say that the term single handedly was not the best choice. I also agree with you that CPE Bach was a large part of the shift between baroque and classical. However, I feel like Beethoven was a large catalyst for romanticism. I can't say that I know exactly how big CPE Bach was in his time, but I feel like the fact that large majority of composers that followed Beethoven were greatly influenced by him. I am not going to say that this did not happen with CPE Bach, I just have not done the research to determine that. I will do some listening and reading and see what I can find over the next week or so. However, I have listened to a lot of Schubert's music (he is one of my favorite composers) and read up a lot on his life. I feel like Schubert's shift to romanticism was largely following in the footprints of Beethoven. Schubert was a huge fan of Beethoven's work. This is easily heard in many of his later works, which are obviously innovative and obviously inspired by Beethoven. I also feel like the fact that Schubert's music was undiscovered until years later (when Schumann, Mendelssohn, and other composers discovered it) demonstrates that his innovations were late to the cultural party, and did not exactly inspire the cultural shift.

In regards to my second comments, I feel like innovation is a large portion of the role of composers. However, I feel like Beethoven was very outright in the changes he made. He took music as far as he could with the influence he had (which was great). I will not argue that other composers do not innovate, but I feel like Beethoven's innovation had a cultural impact larger than that of any other composer (Except maybe Wagner). But this point was also a valid point that I respect.

In regards to the string quartet, my theory teacher is a cellist, so I am going to mention your point to him. I am quite interested to hear his take on Beethoven's effect towards the string quartet. I am a huge fan of the Mendelssohn String Octet, so I agree when it comes to the amazing > Sextets.

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bengy (73) · 6 years ago

Take a listen to the Brahms Sextets is you don't already know them! They are really quite something.

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remlaps (75) · 6 years ago

Looks like you kick-started some discussion. This was a great idea to launch a conversation. Thanks for the post!

I'm going to argue that Beethoven is not the best composer because there's no way to know who the best composer is. Because it's not measurable, we can't know who the best composer is, or if there even is one.

Granting your points (although I agree with @bengy & @classical-radio that "single handedly" is probably an overreach.) There are still areas that Beethoven did not dominate. Opera, especially, comes to mind. Also, Beethoven never composed a movie score. And, I'm not sure if he wrote any requiems? Although I only know what I've learned 2nd-hand through your lessons, here are some other examples:

Bach & Mozart handed down the rules of counterpoint and voice leading. One could argue that Beethoven was standing on their shoulders, as well as his own teacher, Haydn's.
Mendelssohn wrote fantastic compositions at a much younger age, as a teenager.
Schubert was a far better song writer.
Mozart was a far better opera writer
Mozart had the best-selling CD of 2016.
James Horner's Titanic Soundtrack was the best-selling classical music CD in the last 25 years, which covers much of the time when people have been able to buy music en masse.
Bach and Schubert both composed massive numbers of compositions.

All of those, and others, could plausibly be claimed as the best composer. So could Beethoven. It all depends on the importance we place on the different factors. But, since there's no objective way to measure it, the claim that Beethoven is the single best composer is, IMO, not supported.

Thanks again for the post! Great way to launch a discussion.

bengy (73) · 6 years ago

Ha, I did forget about the lack opera! But you do make a good point, it is hard to quantify what makes the best composer. Beethoven was deficient in some areas of composition for sure.

I would also add that just because you like any one particular composer doesn't mean they don't have some off days! I recently did a Bach cantata that was eminently forgettable... And also I generally like playing Telemann, I never like all the movements in a suite or sonata.

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cmp2020 (72) · 6 years ago

It's hard to make every cantata memorable when you're writing a new one every week :)

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cmp2020 (72) · 6 years ago

Thanks for the input!

Bach & Mozart handed down the rules of counterpoint and voice leading. One could argue that Beethoven was standing on their shoulders, as well as his own teacher, Haydn's.

This is a point that I have often seen made. However, I don't think that because you learned something from someone else that necessarily means that your achievements are theirs. Haydn, Mozart, and Bach learned from someone else who learned from someone else. The cycle goes on forever. In order to be concrete, let's call Beethoven's achievements his own. But, fair point.

Mendelssohn wrote fantastic compositions at a much younger age, as a teenager.

This is true, but these compositions did not have a huge cultural impact. Mendelssohn was a good composer, but he was not known to be a huge rule breaker like Beethoven. He innovated, but not on the level that other composers of his time innovated.

Schubert was a far better song writer.

This may be true, but it is due to the fact that Beethoven did not prioritize songs like Schubert did. I will say that Beethoven has songs which are just as innovative and complex as Schubert's, but there is a reason why Schubert was called the king of song. However, there is also a reason why Beethoven was called the king of harmony by the same person. Both men were talented, but I again feel like Beethoven had a larger cultural impact.

Mozart was a far better opera writer

Beethoven was a far better symphony writer. The reasoning is again priorities and focus. Mozart dedicated a lot of his time and effort to opera. Beethoven did the same with his symphonies. However, I will say Fidelio is the first opera with a female protagonist. Like that has anything to do with musical achievement.

Mozart had the best-selling CD of 2016.

That's because there are like 10 people who still actually buy CDs. Though I applaud the market based approach. I will say though that a lot more people know Beethoven's music than Mozart's. For example, here's a list of the 10 most famous pieces (that I just found and probably has no scientific backing). Beethoven is the only composer on the list with 2 pieces.

James Horner's Titanic Soundtrack was the best-selling classical music CD in the last 25 years, which covers much of the time when people have been able to buy music en masse.

This music came out much more recently than Beethoven's. It was also featured in a major motion picture.

Bach and Schubert both composed massive numbers of compositions.

Beethoven had a descent amount. Probably a lot more than James Horner. I again will make the point that Beethoven's music had a larger cultural impact than Bach or Schubert's.

Thanks for the feedback!

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