who controls the knowledge and why...

in christian •  8 years ago 

What would you say if I told you that from the earliest times elitist (those with power) have worked to manipulate knowledge to justify their power? I believe a number of people would accept that statement as true.

Have you ever thought about the world’s knowledge base and applied that paradigm to each separate section? How are the elitists manipulating the sciences, language, entertainment, etc.?

What if there really is a God who long ago communicated His intentions to a select group of people but that knowledge was twisted to support the narrative of elitism? And what if that God from time to time stepped into human history to throw off those elites and return truth to the people?

Some of you may disregard this possibility simply because you don’t believe in God, but I ask you to set that aside for a few minutes to think through this strain of thought. Hopefully you will gain something from it logically even if you continue in rejecting the belief in God.

The Bible we have today is composed of an Old Testament and New Testament. Most translations of the Old Testament are based on the Tanakh, with varying degrees of influence from the Septuigent (LXX), and less so, the Targums. But what if the Tanakh was the product of that elitist (Pharisaical) intent to place themselves in either the line of God or as God’s interpreters of those texts?

Did you know that most of the OT citations in the NT are from the LXX (and Aramaic texts) and not the Tanakh? Why did the early church fathers choose to include that text instead of the LXX or Targums? Availability definitely effected the decision but the Tanakh also lends itself nicely to the elitist narrative by obscuring references to the Messiah and pointing more to a people who control the Word and The Land – and thereby the gates to heaven. This narrative was picked up by the early church (after Constantine) for one reason or another… possibly out of fear of the rulers – and propagated down the halls of time to this present day.

Martin Luther may have protested many of the Catholic church’s faults, but he missed a number of them. It was a large task to completely reform such a heretical structure so we can forgive him for not getting it completely right (also because no one ever does). Many of those who followed him however failed to continue the reforms and became complacent to teach the heresy of the universal (Catholic) church with variations on the reforms of Luther. Over the years, instead of moving towards clearer understanding the church fragmented with internecine squabbles over stupid questions like how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

Though the centuries, various heresies were found to not fit completely and were then tweaked a little to one side or another instead of being completely thrown out. We find ourselves today a completely fractured church split into hundreds of denominations.

But I digress…

The biggest lie that is told by the elites is that they hold the keys to heaven or that if you don’t follow their example or set of rules you will burn in hell for eternity. Nice gospel… A word that means “good news” over time included more and more truly bad news. Eternal Hell became orthodox - the only point of unity within the multiple denominations - and to speak otherwise became the worst possible heresy. But was that really God’s plan? To included something in His good news that would cause embarrassment for some – to the point of never being able to express the gospel in public? Or a cudgel by which red-faced preachers would attempt to get people to refrain from sin? Worse yet, it became a point of pride for those who could avoid an eternal damnation that seemed to reach into time to torture the living.

And here we have arrived. A world run by elites simply because people are too uninformed (or ill-informed) to understand that God didn’t intend for each person to be ruled by an elite class but by Him first and then by ourselves as well. So many have become used to listening to the elites we have terms for it like normalcy bias or elitist bias. God said don’t trust in human leaders; so what do we do? Look to them for guidance?

But what of the theology of it… if I haven’t lost everyone already, what does the Bible really say? If Jesus died – taking the penalty for the sins of all mankind – why is anyone punished? Didn’t Jesus speak about people going to hell? He told the parable of the rich man in Hades after all.

Answers to all the possible questions could take a while to explain to the completely incredulous, but some may see the truth in a few simple answers. For believers, possibly a clearer understanding of the shear scope of God’s grace which motivates to sharing the truth in grace with those who accept the elitist narrative of the Bible.

Why did Jesus use the Greek Mythology term "Hades" instead of the Jewish term "Sheol"? Certainly Hades was used in the LXX to translate the Hebrew Sheol, but the two words really didn't mean the same thing. While Hades did represent a place of eternal punishment, Sheol did not - meaning a a dark and gloomy place with no punishment attached. It's first seen in Genesis 37:35 when Jacob is told that Joseph was attacked and killed by a wild beast. Jacob said, "Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son." Should we believe Jacob was going to eternal damnation for mourning the loss of a son?

The “Eternal” hell they want us to fear – "aionios" usually mistranslated “eternal” or “everlasting” but translated better to “lasting throughout the age”. Meaning punishment has a set duration. In the Bible all sin is debt – with a duration that is limited by the law of Jubilee (not eternal). In the LXX Jonah was in the belly of the fish for "aionios" which lasted only 3 days...

Isaiah 45:23 and Romans 14:11 state that every knee will bow and every tongue confess; not just the knees and tongues of believers. While Romans 10:9 states that those confess with their tongue will be saved. Every tongue will confess – everyone who confesses will be saved.

In Revelation 20 we see the nations come down with Satan to over through Jerusalem and end up cast into the lake of fire yet in Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. Further in Revelation 21:25 the gates of Heaven will never be closed...

Most clearly stated (for me): 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. Protasis and apodosis… the “all” in Adam are the same “all” in Christ.

in Act 3:20-21 Jesus is in heaven until the "period of restoration of all things"... not "some things", or even "most things," - All Things.

Back to Revelation, Jesus is called "The Beginning and The End" - in Genesis 1:1 God created the heavens and the earth in "The Beginning." Let that sink in... all things were in fact created in Christ - all things will be restored with His return. Only death and "hades" (mythology) will be "no more."

I have already stretched this too long so I will leave off with these last thoughts.

I want you to know - to understand - that not all Christians believe that non-Christians (or people who commit certain sins) will burn for eternity in hell.

Finally, the Scriptures tell us not to trust in princes – yet the princes tell us not to trust in scriptures (or to trust only in the official interpretation of them)… will you follow their advice?

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Killer first post, Farmer Bob! I've been wrestling with the issue of eternal punishment and salvation for a while now. I don't think I'm quite ready to go full bore Universalism yet, though. There's just too many questions about what exactly the bible means when it talks about punishment of the wicked.

First, what exactly is meant by john 3:16 if everyone will receive eternal life? What is it to perish? Or Romans 6:23 where the wages of sin is death? What about all the Old Testament passages that talk about the wicked being destroyed, burned up, blown away like chaff, etc.?

Also, it begs the question: if everyone is eventually saved, why bother repenting and believing in Jesus in this life at all? Why all the warnings in the Bible to repent?

I'm in agreement with you about the elites and man not lording it over each other, though. I'm just more in the conditionalist camp in regards to the afterlife. I'm open, though. In the end, I don't really think we can say for sure one way or the other based on the biblical evidence because it is so vague. It's kind of like prophecy in that regard.

Nice reading you. Peace.

I have to head to work, so I can only give short answers now, but I'll get back to you later. In the mean time I recommend Robin Parry on youtube.

Also, Roman's is one of the most abused book in the Bible. Paul is actually doing a dialectic between his own teaching and the false teaching of a Jewish-Christian teacher who is trying to push a salvation-by-works gospel. I recommend "The Deliverance of God: An Apocalyptic Rereading of Justification in Paul" - Douglas Campbell to understand that. I plan on writing about it in the future but am not ready for that yet. I can also recommend Tetelestia.org study on Romans.

as to John 3:16, remember that at the end - the restoration - every knee will bow and every tongue confess - the judgment of God is not retributive as many would have us believe, His judgment is transformative.

repenting now allows one to live the life-to-come now - the kingdom of God is righteous, joy and peace now. To live for the moment, directed by desire, is to be a slave to sin. True peace - that is inner peace - is lived only in union with Christ. Not a life free from adversity, but a life lived with a forward look to eternity.

Further, God's judgment is still judgment, God is called a burning fire (Heb 12:29) and while that fire, as with the burning bush of Moses, does not consume, it is still fire - and some will be saved as though through fire (1 Cor 3:15), meaning loss of all his work (accumulation). Knowing the potential of loss, I would rather work for that which will remain.
I do not believe the biblical evidence is vague. When studied out, it become very clear - and the vagueness you see is part of the oligarch's program. God is not far off or absent and Christ sent the Holy Spirit expressly to that we may come to understand.

I hope I didn't confuse the issue... but let me know and I'll get back to this later.

peace to you also!

No worries, I've been looking into this ever since you posted. You know, a part of me is/has always been hoping for Universal salvation, part of me can't accept it.

I found some points brought up by a pastor named Peter Hiett to be pretty interesting, and I'm really rolling them around in my noggin. It's a new thought for me, but he brings up the point that God is eternal, and God is light. In the resurrection/restoration of all things, it's possible we will all live in the Eternal now with God, as in outside time. If that's the case, then all the references to Eternal punishment, and things lasting forever could mean that they last until the closing of the current timeline.

I'm still not sure what to make of the second death, in the Universalist paradigm. In a sense, I can see the problem with God killing all the sinners, throwing them into the lake of fire in Rev 21:8, right after He said there will be no more death, pain, etc. How's that supposed to work out if you know and love someone who was a liar, or unbeliever, and God kills them in front of you? At the same time, doesn't that suggest salvation for the principalities and powers, Satan, etc.?

Anyway, you've definitely got me thinking, and studying the Word, so thanks for that!

well.. home a little late... but I want to address one thing you asked. Why believe at all?

As I was working I recalled Robin Parry's answer that question and since I had recommended him to you I found myself hoping you wouldn't stumble onto that video (or that if so, it didn't put you off). I found his answer to be weak... though I enjoy much of his work.

I believe it is an extremely important question - in the light of what I have seen from many universalists since my conversion. Many seem to have taken a completely non-critical view of sin and the need for a Spiritual Life - at least the ones I have come in contact with. That seems the cowards way out since the Bible is filled with admonitions against various sins as well as growing in grace, witnessing, following our calling, etc.

Building (hopefully) on what I wrote this morning. Believing now joins us to a community of believers that is a relationship like no other. It also increases our light in the age to come. To live a life after the flesh now will also take a toll that is natural to our bodies. Without God as our guide and confessor we accumulate failures that no amount of ignoring or alcohol will relieve. God has provided a means to overcome those failures in His Son - a relief not available to the unbeliever until death. The universalist is uniquely positioned to recover (as are faith-alone Hell-ists) in that we have an assurance of salvation so that no failure has the sting of eternal damnation. No reason to go though life unsure of eternity.

Further, I don't believe it's possible to not-believe in Christ and then also believe that He will save us in the end...

believe now, grow in grace, spread the true gospel, live as a witness of and for the glory of Christ - this is the life well lived. no bucket list required.

I hope this helps.

Well, I had a chance to catch one of Robin Perry's videos and he does raise some interesting points. He didn't really appeal to scripture all that much though, just mostly to a sense that the damnation idea didn't really fit the story of redemption. I think he has a point, but in the end I felt like he didn't do enough to overcome some of the problems I have with the idea of Universalism.

First, the bible does indeed indicate a destructive end to the wicked. Over and over in the old testament. Jesus Himself uses Sodom and Gomorrah and the Flood as examples of God's judgement. If we all die anyway, what's the point of singling out the end of the wicked? I mean, I know we all die, but from a conditionalist perspective those passages would refer to the second death. While we're on the subject, under a universalist perspective what is the second death?

Also, I know Revelation is highly debated regarding its interpretation, but what about the lake of fire, and the destruction of the devil, false prophet, etc in Rev 20, Dan 7. In Col 1:20, and Acts 3 which you cited above it says all things will be reconciled, Colossians specifically says "whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." That seems to muddy the waters for me a little. Which is it, are the Devil and the fallen Son of God reconciled or not? Picking one side or another doesn't reconcile what seems to be an obvious tension, for me at least.

It's passages like the following that make me think that at least some people are going to suffer eternal destruction.

Psalm 37:38, 2 Peter 3:3-7, 2 peter 2:1-12, 2 Thes 1:6-9 There are more, but you get the point.

Anyway, I'm not arguing here, so don't think I'm attacking you. Actually, I really have some hard feelings for having been taught the whole Eternal Conscious Torment doctrine for most of my life, so I'm pretty open to going wherever the evidence leads. Not sure I'll be able to get to the book you recommended any time soon, though. My "to Read" list gets bigger way faster than I can knock it down.

Further, I don't believe it's possible to not-believe in Christ and then also believe that He will save us in the end...

You got me there. Didn't consider it from that angle before.

Believing now joins us to a community of believers that is a relationship like no other.

On this one, though, I have to disagree. From my personal experience with so called Christians, most are extremely judgemental, unforgiving, and legalistic. People in the churches I have attended treat each other much worse than the people I have met in the dregs. Probably because they have no fear of getting their rear ends kicked... I got called a heretic earlier today on this platform for sticking up for C.S. Lewis! I'm surprised the Heretic Hunters haven't found this post to "expose" you yet.

Thanks for the dialog, Hamish.

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