If you didn't know this world is harsh. You can do it all right by the worlds standards and a freak flood can take it all away, as if it never existed. Or a freak death can wreck your whole world. Or maybe an illness or accident that leaves you paralyzed physically or emotionally. We try to rationalize all this but it makes no sense. We think everyone hates us or maybe someone is mad at us but its just that the world is a harsh place to live.
"For God so loved the world" changed the dynamic of this world. Is it still a harsh place, Yes. But God did something in sending his son to redeem us from this world. He sent the world a way out of the darkness, death and destruction. God made away that delivers us up to him.
Does the world love God? No. Jesus was persecuted for his light that he shined into the world and we can expect the same.
Which brings me back to "For God so loved the world". Why? This place is so harsh and it hates all that is God. Why love it unto death? Personally I am looking forward to the day I don't have to struggle and fight and contend with this world. Do I want it today? No. But it would be nice to have a stress free life. I just don't find that in this world.
So I keep going back to why does God love this world that hates him and all who profess his name. I declare Jesus as my salvation but that can only be said in certain company. Why? What's wrong with saying Jesus is my savior? The answer is the world hates God, Jesus and all who love him.
This place hates all its inhabitants. Which is the key to this puzzle? This world hates all. The prince of this world hates the creator of this world and magnifies this hate across the whole world. Maybe those of us that stand with God think we're special but we're not. The world hates all and does a good job of fooling us. The world makes the inhabitants think those that are the most successful are loved by this world. Wrong. They are just as hated. The successful just make people envious of their status but they are hated all the same.
So a place that spreads hate to all, needs a way out and that is why Jesus came. He created this world and it was good and a man screwed it up. Which man makes no difference because when left to our own devices we make horrible choices.
God loved this world to death. Literally. He did what is required of all humans on this earth. Die. Go back to the dust that we came from. But in his death he let us know when I raise myself up from this grave you can expect the same. He showed us that death has no sting. His resurrection gives us hope that this world has no hold on us and we can separate ourselves from it and live. We can enjoy everlasting life in a place that is prepared for us. That is free from the pains of this world. A place that has a righteous King. A King that died for its inhabitants. He loved the unloveable.
So here's the part where the fake, cheery SEO styled "agree with everything" mentality that dominates this sty of a website goes away and I offer some rational, scathing criticism.
You've been warned. :D
I think the phrase we need to focus on is not "For God so loved the world..." more so than "God sent". Notice the word "sent" is the past tense variant, something that happened and not something that will happen or is happening. This is very important, especially when we're discussing a deity who canonically is supposed to be all knowing and all powerful.
Let's have a brief look at what those two character traits mean before we go any further. All knowing, or omniscient, does not mean "knows all that there is". It's so much more than that. The term means "knows all that is possible, and all that is NOT possible, to know". Omniscience isn't all of THE information, it is INFINITE POSSIBLE information. Likewise, omnipotence does not mean "can lift any heavy boulder" or "can make anything you see around you". It means INFINITE POTENTIAL FOR POWER. For the omniscient being, no knowledge is beyond knowing and no outcome is unknown. For the omnipotent being, all action is easier than breathing, INFINITE displays of power require 0 energy input. The creation of the universe for such a being was neither confusing, nor difficult.
So, now that we've established some parameters here, a problem should be evident to you. Why is an omnipotent, omniscient being in a reactionary position? Why was a fix to a problem sent? Why does a being who knew specifically, with unlimited clarity, what would happen have to REACT to a problem? Why does a being with unlimited potential to fix any errors in his reasoning BEFORE he acts send an imperfect solution to a problem he obviously knew would occur?
God may have loved the world, but he didn't love it enough to employ his defining character traits in their fullest measure to ensure he didn't HAVE to incarnate within it and perform an incredibly painful and horrible task to poorly fix a problem he knew would occur from the outset. It's the same mentality I hear on the news after every severe storm outbreak in the American midwest: " Oh we just lost everything and we'll literally never be able to live as good a life as we did, mathematically speaking, and everyone who lived in our general vicinity is either dead or just as permanently ruined as we are, but THANK GOD."
Thank god? Thank the being who knew the tornado would come but didn't love you enough to avert it BEFORE it happened to spare you soul crushing hardship for the rest of your life? Thank god for using unbelievable suffering cast upon extremely limited and unseeing beings such as ourselves to prove menial philosophical points? (Lest you be tempted to suggest god did this to teach us something. I teach my children not to harm others but I don't do it by tying them up and bull whipping them until they vomit and pass out)
No, this "God so loved the world" nonsense doesn't pan out logically. God may love the world, but not very much. Certainly not enough to do what any intelligent and capable human being would do in averting trouble BEFORE it happens. And when that capability and intelligence is literally infinite in scope, as opposed to our little meaningless dust-triumphs on the tiny speck floating around an insignificant sun, failing to act cannot be attributed to love.
At best it is a sign of disinterest. At worst, an indication of outright malevolence. Either god is all-knowing/all-powerful, OR he is loving. Simple empirical observation demonstrates easily that he is not both.
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I understand your argument. My willingness to love my savior is my willingness. I am not being forced to love him. I do it out of free will. There can be no free will if we have no choice.
So if we lived in a world that was with out harm to us we would accept our roles but we would not love the maker. We would go along with our everyday task and all would be wonderful.
God desires our love for him. It can't be a forced love. It has to be a free willing love that accepts his gift to us. God never forces himself on us but instead allows us to see his greatness and desire him the way he desires us.
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"There can be no free will if there is no choice"
You're ignoring what I said and forcing the conversation into absurd parameters. I agree free will is not a possibility in a universe that precludes the potential for choice. But it does not logically follow that free will can only exist in a universe where ALL possible choices are available, nor in one which includes terrible outcomes. One does not need to be at pain of incredible hardship to have a choice. If you disagree, then you disagree with every parent who has ever lived and carefully curated their childrens' environment to include choices that are appropriate for their level of intellectual development and those which allow for failure for the good of child, but not catastrophic failure that leads to severe harm.
I agree, God does not force himself on us. In fact, it's very damning that Christian apologetics for the fact that incredible suffering exists in a universe where there is supposedly a loving, all powerful and all knowing steward, are academically similar to the scenario in which there is no god, or that there is a god but he doesn't particularly give a shit about what's going on.
This is not love. This is neglectful parenting. I do not need to teach my child about the dangers of the world by letting the little fool jam a fork into the light socket. No all knowing, all powerful being who loves us needs to subject us to tornadoes, nor genetically inherited sin conditions which, if left untreated, cause eternal damnation to prove philosophical points, nor to give us the opportunity to love him.
And yet here we are. We certainly ARE subjected to severe weather and, if your bible is to be believed, have in fact inherited sin conditions which will assure our consumption in eternal hellfire if we don't follow teachings poorly stewarded from manipulation in a book written mostly by people who didn't know what electricity is and sheep herders. The extraordinarily poor recording of the most important information ever given to mankind, alone, is demonstration enough that god really doesn't think very much of you.
The god of your bible is a sociopath.
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I have three kids and I know this much. My kids would hate me if I dictated their every move. They would resent me and rebel. But if I explain all consequences of each choice, then I have given them the knowledge they need to make choices. Can I still push them they way I want yes. But their love for me will be pure if I allow it to grow from them and not me pushing it on them.
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Yet again, you are ignoring the points made. I understand a child needs freedom. But I know for a fact that you do not give them freedom beyond their ability to handle. If that were not so, they would be child protective services' children, and not yours. You will not allow your children to do heroin because "If I limit them their love for me wont be pure." That is an emotional appeal to nonsense.
Are you going to acknowledge and discuss the points made or does your argument depend on you closing your eyes? Can your claim not stand up to the smallest scrutiny? I am no genius. If it cannot stand up to me it has no hope of standing up to my betters.
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I acknowledge your points and they are valid. But do acknowledged there is an evil force warring with the God of the universe. The evil of this world being lead be a demonic force and that force is causing the pain and misery of this world. I opened up in my blog by saying this world is harsh and it hates all of us. The world hates us because of the demonic forces ruling it. God gave us a way out of the misery. But to end the misery would mean to end the whole world. God does not want that. He desires that all come to him for their salvation and that non should perish. The world is out to destroy the inhabitants, not God.
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"Acknowledge there is an evil force warring with god"
Demonstrate it exists. Consideration is not due without proof, and incredible claims require commensurate evidence.
And even if you do it does not back up your initial point. In fact it would back MINE up. No evil force can war with an all powerful, all knowing being BUT with that being's permission. And we have already established that one does not need to subject a child to incredible danger in order to give them the ability to make choices and love us as parents.
If such an evil force exists, it is god's fault for not precluding its existence in the first place. Yet again, your god is in a reactionary position. And that's awful suspicious.
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So now for a question. Is your hope only in this life time. We live our 70 or so years and that is it. Explain to me why get up if that is all we have.
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Just add. If I forced myself on my wife would that be true love or would she be put in a position to do my will because I said so. Same applies with God. My wife would own me if I hurt her in anyway. But because she loves me she allows me to have a relationship with her. Which to be frank makes no sense to me because I am jerk most of the time. But love looks past the flaws. God looks past our flaws. He accepts us as we are and all he desires is our love.
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