If you'd rather just hear how the Engagement Guild solves the user retention issues, watch me in video form describing it:
[ignore the high-looking thumbnail image.....I'm going to fix that shortly]
I hereby present to you the Engagement Guild Proposal.
PROBLEM: Users are frustrated that their high engagement posts are not being rewarded. Then they write their "This Is My Final Post On Steemit" and then go back to Facebook/Reddit, etc. where they continue to get engagement.
SOLUTION: Engagement Guild.
Before I explain how the Engagement Guild will work, I need to illustrate to the Steemit community why it's necessary. Curie and Steem Guild are doing a fine job, and those should remain, but in order to move to the next level, engagement needs to be rewarded. I think we can all agree that social engagement brings value to a network. Social value equals more social engagement, more passion, more web traffic, equals more investors, equals a higher value for Steem. This is basic 101 social media.
Everyone in here currently disagrees with "what is valuable", but fans of a particular person drive engagement, which in turns drives the value of a network up. As a particular person gains more and more engagement, their value goes up. Rewards should organically follow this increased engagement. This is how Steemit can grow organically, and how groups tend to form in all online communities.
Groups and content lovers do not need to be picked apart by overlords determining how valuable the content they love is.
People on Steemit are already determining what to engage with. They are doing so organically. The comments tell the story. Humans are guided more by emotions and that needs to be the number one priority in Steemit right now. I know everyone will say, "but mainstream!" Well, creating a healthy, well-functioning system that creates happiness is what we need. When we are functioning well, others will take notice. By trying to attract everyone to a place that is not functioning well, we fail. We build upon the basic tenets of creating a system that creates the maximum happiness. The rest will follow. I've done this myself in social media, so I know what I'm talking about. Remember, I am a user. Not a programmer, not a miner, A USER.
(And for all those thinking that I'm trying to create more rewards for myself, you're wrong. I am happy as a creator in Steemit and I don't need to be trending all the time. Once a week would be nice, but every day would feel just wrong. I felt guilty when I did in the past and that affected my feelings about being here, because I knew I did not deserve it. I am building my blog in Steemit as if it were my personal real estate. I am aware that I am a guinea pig and that the devs don't have everything built yet. But I think my solutions should really be considered because I'm one of the very few early adopter users who is still active, very active in here.)
I now view my successes based on the following metrics:
- Did I get any new followers today?
- How many people engaged with my post or read it?
Those are the 2 main things I attribute my personal success to. Steemit should be the same, and follow this.
Let's take a look at a post that had 86 comments, 179 votes and 161 eyeballs:
This post echoes a lot of minnows and it generated a lot of social activity, as clearly indicated by the 161 reads. That is a lot of reading going on. And 86 comments is huge. The reward so far is $2.51. The Engagement Guild would fix this by taking notice of the enormous social engagement that came from this user and giving higher rewards. In the short time I've gotten to know this user, I can sense his overwhelming passion for Steemit. His passion is what attracted me to his blog, and has attracted many others too. When users put forth passion, receive a ton of eyeball views, and a ton of comments, then receive $2.51, the system is not working. This is the kind of thing that frustrates people. I have the solution.
HOW THE ENGAGEMENT GUILD WOULD WORK
- Posts are compiled by the amount of comments.
- A group of humans in the form of an Engagement Guild Team would review all the posts with the highest comments and eyeballs (readers).
- Having humans review the comment section would get rid of bot and sybil attack problems, since humans can still see what is written by a human and what is written by a bot.
- Humans would also quickly glance at the type of commenting, and detect fake, superficial comments like "good job! nice post!".
The effect of rewarding true engagement would be as follows:
- It would make users stay on the platform.
- It would set an example to other newbies that their hard work in attracting and engaging others will be rewarded.
- It would entice real bloggers, artists, creators to set up their home in Steemit.
- The residual effects would be felt throughout Steemit and the internet.
- It would encourage authenticity, creativity, autonomy, and real content.
- It would encourage people to create content that resonates with others, instead of placating the whims of the whales.
The residual effect in the future, as we build out communities, is greater autonomy, freedom and happiness.
It is happiness, freedom and engagement that creates real value in life and on the internet. I think we all know this.
I am willing to spearhead this effort and I promise to everyone that I will not abuse this system for my own benefit. In fact, all team members who would be on the Engagement Guild Team would take an oath to not use the voting guild for their own posts. The team members would become a part of the guild organically, as the ones who cultivate and encourage others will become known to the community in an organic fashion.
Whale Support Is Essential In Moving This Engagement Idea Into Reality. If you are a whale and think this guild would move Steemit in a good direction, please contact me here or in Steemit Chat. Users so far have said they think it's a good idea that could make a difference.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks for your attention,
Stellabelle
By the way, I have created a group in Facebook called STEEMIT NEWBIES. It's a help page, designed to answer questions from users who are very new to Steemit: https://www.facebook.com/steemitnewbies
It's a place where people can get actual help in the form of a person answering very specific questions about Steemit. It's part of my Operation Newbies series of projects. I'll make a post about this seperately.
Facebook, Medium, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter...those are my stomping grounds, so it makes sense to set up Steemit Newbies groups in those platforms in order to siphon off and help people who are trying to transition to Steemit.
Hello @stellabelle,
Congratulations! Your post has been chosen by the communities of SteemTrail as one of our top picks today.
Also, as a selection for being a top pick today, you have been awarded a TRAIL token for your participation on our innovative platform...STEEM.
Please visit SteemTrail to get instructions on how to claim your TRAIL token today.
If you wish to learn more about receiving additional TRAIL tokens and SteemTrail, stop by and chat with us.
Happy TRAIL!
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thanks
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Not to beat a dead horse but kinda proves your point and a lot of what others are saying -- you have nearly 400 votes, 47 comments and counting and this is only worth $5.55 and people have reblogged this.
And this is only up 2 hrs now as I write this.
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This is a real solution! Good job. Just like @krystle who did a post on adding a comment tab that would actually drive human consciousness engagement.
The new reward pool will cut the bot economy in two and drive bots to the other economy, duplicating the root causal issue on Steemit of a lack of human consciousness that is the only thing that can actually engage in attention and comment/reward actual comments. Attention requires consciousness. We need to deal with the real issue, not just replicate the problem into another area.
Making a comment tab would be great. A way to find comments is needed. And now just today, we have notifications enabled through Google chrome when someone replies to your post or comment. This is a great step forward!
Being able to follow posts is a feature I requested on github, so that new comments on a post you like can be sent as notifications as well and that will greatly drive interactivity on content.
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You have been on this cause for awhile now @krnel many people will testify. +1
And I got a post out today about the new notifications feature in the last cpl. hours if you want to reblog it
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Yup, well stellabelle's post motivated me to finally talk about it again. It's an issue that needs to be understood more deeply.
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I knew this a long time ago but only today formulated an actual plan.
The designers of social media need to understand what drives human actions.....as we have seen, it is primarily emotion and the attainment of happiness. Look at how many people have abandoned their accounts......this should never happen, the logic is: "they have a chance to make real money, why would anyone leave?" Money is not enough if you're experiencing a negative cognitive load.
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Yup. We've talked about some issues in the Steemit Community Discusisons. Information is not available to enable a new user to understand this completely new model of economy and social media mix. Then their expectation are not met, they are feel helpless, disenfranchised and disillusioned. Too much to learn and no central location to do it from. Feeling lost is not welcoming for many. I just learn when I don't know something, but others aren't as persistent to adapt to something new. Steemit is fixing that with the onboarding and tutorial though.
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I feel very strongly that this solution solves a lot of frustration. If you have any weight or influence on whales, please give this to them. Out of all the ideas and solutions I've created, it is this one that I feel really could affect people in a tremendous way and move things forward positively.
Thank you for you supporting my idea.
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what did you mean "drive bots to the other economy"? What other economy is it?
I'm just not exactly clear on this.
Actually, bots in Steemit will need to become AI because human social energy will become the new metric instead of following one particular user, so the abilities of the bots will need to upped.
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A comments reward pool cuts the bot income, so it drive them into a new marketplace, the new economy, not just the post reward pool. It just duplicates the issue without dealing with the root cause. I'll make a post on the comment reward pool that I have already objected to as a "solution" in my review of the proposals.
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Are you going to mention my solution? I will need all the support from the community to convince the whales that this is one that will help solve user retention.
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Nah, I'm going to say to especially ignore your post :P hehe. I resteemed it before, and yes your solution will be included.
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Thanks dude.
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The root cause being: engagement is not being properly recognized and rewarded?
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That is part of it -- but as of late @krnel has stated and many agree that basically a lot of people on here are lazy lol, simply put....
I desire engagement. I just have not found the right girl.
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i gotta eat now. Steem later.
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Good point!
There are many informative posts on steemit (with very few comments in general) that are very good. Those are usually noticed by the existing guilds.
On the other hand, you propose to create a guild that takes care of a second set of posts that trigger discussions and interactions. I think this is very complementary to what we already have as those are not necessarily within the existing guild area of action, and thus something possibly cool to see implemented.
Let's see where it goes!
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Yes, that is exactly what I'm proposing! It's an area that still needs to be rewarded....
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(just to say I was agreeing with you... nothing more ;) )
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thanks. I appreciate that
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Furthermore, I declare this post
-Resteemed
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ha ha!!!! You're an example of a great social media user, and someone with whom I can really identify.
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there! I just threw 5 cents at your comment.
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If I had a dime for every...
Oh wait.
Thanks to your 2 votes today here I DO have a dime of fiat backed, fractional-reserved currency lol!
And thanks, I know it is funny but it is your thought that counts. Appreciated.
#MinnowLife
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can you do a mention @stellabelle to see if the notifications are working for me?
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Firefox people are telling me on my dedicated post on my page to this topic today for the new features -- try logging in and out, again. I did not have to in Chrome but maybe you do. Check here on my latest undervalued post lol
https://steemit.com/steemit/@barrydutton/new-feature-activated-on-steemit-in-browser-notifications-for-mentions-replies-etc-short-form-post-w-explainer-graphic
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I have a few times in the last 90 mins or so, here is one more @stellabelle
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ok it is not working.....thanks
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Very good initiative @stellabelle. We need more of these on the platform, and more users taking lead to get things off the ground. SteemTrail has been building its framework and communities since September and would like to offer any assistance or guidance to this guild. Let me know if you would like to chat about this, i have a lot i can share.
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first thing needs to happen is getting whale support for the idea. If I was a whale, I'd just use my own SP to get this thing going, but that's not the case, so whale support is absolutely essential.
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Why not post a daily top five thought provoking well commented post like dragonslayer used to do. Then at least the minnows can support it and maybe the whales will notice with a. More tangible example of how it might work.
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And then split the rewards among them, too, right? What is a tool I could use to find the posts with the most comments?
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Well I would go to most active. Usually the way to appear there is the ones with most comments. You'll miss some but I bet people will start commenting links to other posts or will direct message you(after they voted of course). Then you can provide links so people can vote (and comment) on those post and lastly when you are paid you can send them the sbd. (I thought @furion steem.li used to have a sort that would help like that but it's not working. )
It's a lot of work but if it gets attention some whales will latch on.
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Agreed. I know you would.
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"Total and utter nonsense!
As I have said many times, all things around here should be determined by the voting power of those who hold the voting power.
WE designed it that way, we gave said power to ourselves (and friends)! And so it should be that way! Also we are selling bits of that power for money so everybody is free to buy some (and pay a unjust amounts for what we rewarded ourselves)"
Engagement, mingagement BS...hmmm.
/s
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Then don't pretend that it is social media.
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Why?
Do you see any other ways to present it? More profitable ways, I mean?
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Yes, I have proposed many alternative structural amendments. It is clear that everyone knows that the leveraged advantages are counter-productive. It has been acknowledged at the highest echelons.
Advantage is justifiable - the extent of the advantage is not; nor is the blatant intravoting which ensures that the distribution or decentralisation is meaningless to all intents and purposes. I thoroughly understand the necessity for power weighting. I do also see that one of the reasons for the price of steem and its history is due to the failure of decentralisation.
Again, admitted by the top echelons.
I have proposed these things and there is no power in me to force people to listen. All I would say is that the powers who are usurping the system might be happier with half the power and four times the steem value ... and rising!
I cannot promise that but I do know how to get there.
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Well I do not know what you believe, but no "amendments" will do any good IMHO. Steem is simply started/staying on a wrong fundamentals.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually I believe the powers that will eventually bring the "new and improved social media" will have negligible stake in it (per Steem standards)...maybe 0.5%-2%, maybe less. And they will be getting happy/exited not by the price of their token, but by the numbers of people who come and use/enjoy the platform they have build. Do not get me wrong, they will get very very reach by their holdings, but they will simply not rush to sell in the first 6 mo at any price they could get, much unlike the current "founders".
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And there we agree! Too many millennials getting overly excited at the technology without understanding how a business derives 'value'. 400 names currently hold 90% of the steem - hardly a 'value proposition' or valuable situation.
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Outstanding idea. Paired with the separate payoit for comments this could get engagement going. I still wish comments got a higher percent of rewards. Is this coming or is it just perpetually discussed? I can never remember.
Anyhow This engagement guild Is a great idea. I wish it was there for the summer sign ups.
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the new rewards for comments are coming as i understand it.
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Yes, agreed.
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can you mention me to see if the notifications are working?
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Done a few times now, are you not seeing them @stellabelle ??
What browser are you in?
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chrome. i changed the notification setting but it is still not working.
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I think it would work. I value an active comment section on my posts more than money. If I had that and was rewarded for it too, I wouldn't have time to worry about content wars.
Great idea, thank you.
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I'm definitely not alone and being primarily a creator seeking autonomy, this idea would solve many issues. Creators are seeking autonomy. That is where the the most pain lies....
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yeah, active and healthy comments mean that you're actually making a difference somehow.
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Amen
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yeah.....what do you think about it?????????
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I'm all for this idea. I'm always trying to solicit replies from Steemians no matter if they're minnows or whales. They're all equal to me. A human is a human no matter how much STEEM they have. The more people we have curating on Steemit and not bots the more valuable this platform becomes.
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"I'm all for this idea."
"I'm all for this idea."
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Agree 100%. Barry deserved more than just ~3 bucks for a post with so much activity. I have noticed his passion for Steemit and would love to see him better rewarded for it.
p.s. And of course others that can engage the community as much as he did.
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Thanks, I really appreciate that -- a lot of my posts have ended up like that with larger engagement and most of them in general end up with those numbers across the board. As so many other people working hard and/or putting out decent content while other stuff we see gets rewarded alll day long.
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LOL.
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Nice! Some great ideas!
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Nice article..
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do you think it would make a difference?
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Shocker, maybe that was a bot
LOL!!!
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Engagement is very important. The existing guilds look for engagement in the posts and will do so more once the comment rewards proposal is implemented.
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The comment rewards proposal is good, and a step in the right direction. The missing piece, however, is creating and maintaining autonomous creators and rewarding those who drive discussion and engage others. The Engagement Guild does this exact thing. Or, the possibility of an algorithm identifying social energy in the form of human comments, that's the other way that would not require a guild to be formed.
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Comment rewards is a good idea but devs need to be careful to not reduce curation rewards % as this is currently the main reason why people are buying steem power. I think this percentage is too low even now.
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I don't think you need a guild for this; I think you need to work with the design of the upcoming Communities and see if these can be tweaked to meet your preferences.
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It's not a case of my preferences. I am mirroring the people I see on Steemit. Rewards are currently not going to the drivers of engagement. I see this as the root problem and I have yet to see this addressed with any viable solution.
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Actually, I submitted Barry's post, the same one I referenced above into the #curie channel and I was told it did not meet the requirements, but was told that he would see what he could do.
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I vote for the #curie posts every day lol
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If it was the post I'm thinking of, I thought it was a great analysis and discussion. But the curation projects have guidelines that forbid voting on most Steemit-related posts, since our large accountholders' opinions are watched closely. If we put their names on something that has even a shred of a proposal or controversial opinion, then it looks like they're supporting it and that's trouble for everyone, including us. Not our place to make such votes. There is enough other content from diverse areas to support with those votes. Fortunately, controversial and Steemit-related posts generally get plenty of views from everyone, whales included, so they can decide what they want to vote on or not.
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That's why there's a need for a new guild. The whales that support real organic engagement can help us drive Steemit into a high value engagement future which will make their investment grow.
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Honestly, by attempting to control organic energy, the end result is stifling growth, which in turn makes people want to leave. Best to develop and cultivate those who inspire engagement...that's the easiest way to create fast network effects. @krnel, i'm curious what you think about this too.
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You want to start a guild, but you're complaining about controlling organic energy? I would say voting power is distributed presently in a rather inorganic way, which is why large accounts need a bit of help finding the best stuff. And I am agreeing with you that engagement is an important measure of quality. Is it the only measure?
If someone writes a great fiction story on here, it may get a few comments and votes. Is diversity important enough that we should have a place for fiction? Sports, gaming, and news are big on some other sites like Reddit, but most of those posts don't get much traction here unless it involves betting. If people begin to post good pieces on here, should they be rewarded for working to create something that could be important and help build for the future? Engagement is important. So is diversity. So are certain fields that help bring us users.
These value choices are not as easy as you make them out to be.
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I provided a viable solution which is not covered in the definition of "complaining". There is a difference. If I had just pointed out the flaws of the current system and not provided a complete roadmap and solution, then I would be "complaining". This was not created as a replacement for existing guilds, but as a complimentary project to promote organic growth and also to catch authors who generate large amounts of social energy, which is the real driver of growth and expansion.
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Very good post clearing the horizon for guilds strategy and showing how we can act now to build steemit future.
I don't resist putting a quote I made for my next post, about concrete actions to improve the guilds
The future is dealing with the problems and errors we made in the past, turning the past into a consequence determined by the future.
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very nice quote! I like it. I'm still gnawing on that last bit....
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how is the past a consequence of the future? Oh never mind, I just got it while i was typing this
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Thanks:) and congratulations on streemtrail award. It was a very good boom in my motivation to write good content.
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wait, isn't the future the consequence of the past's errors?
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For me now I'm dealing with the errors I made in the past, so that's why I said that the past is a consequence of my future (that I couldn't predict), that's how the past takes shape and meaning :)
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and also, I started a Noob FB group many months ago -- you can type in Steemit 101 and it is there, - I have kept the post promotion out and too many groups, dilute and confuse things but I am glad you started one also
I opted not to put this in my main post reply to you, to avoid other info in the reply content.
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@stellabelle, Great ideas and I seriously do hope that they work! An engagement guild makes this Social Media! Rather than Game Theory. Thank you!
May I suggest that on its own, the guild is great but insufficient? I asked you the other day about a centralisation of some of the really good ideas ... do you have any thoughts about that?
In addition, may I remind you of our tit-for-tat over Aleppo? I do not mean to be contrary here but it is what it is.
Though my content was accurate and showed you to have been misled, I got 40 votes across 3 posts to your 230 odd - quality and painstaking research. You did not vote for my work. I do not understand how you can be so passionate about this and yet you do not do what you are suggesting.
I take great pride in my integrity of work.
I do believe that you have a terrific idea but there needs to be a bigger thing here. Curie and Tribune for under 60. 50, 40 SP
A minnow's progression metric
Many ideas which will assist.
Please do not take umbrage at my Aleppo comments - it is better to use us as the examples than others! The point is that I would like to see social media here and not tomato ketchup recipes which get 130 votes before they can be read, realistically!
Again, an engagement guild is a cracking good idea.
I am sure that a rewards dynamic can be arranged, though the github list looks as long as a long thing!
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I have enjoyed sharing your epiphanous video. When the inspiration strikes, the message must be spread. Serendipity and synchronicity.
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Well, exactly! I had to capture the zeal, the passion! That's the only thing that change anything, especially when it has to do with the future.....
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This post has been ranked within the top 10 most undervalued posts in the second half of Jan 19. We estimate that this post is undervalued by $42.60 as compared to a scenario in which every voter had an equal say.
See the full rankings and details in The Daily Tribune: Jan 19 - Part II. You can also read about some of our methodology, data analysis and technical details in our initial post.
If you are the author and would prefer not to receive these comments, simply reply "Stop" to this comment.
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@stellabelle
I would like to see more engagement on the Steemit too.
If this is a non-profit guild, then I would like to help in any way I can.
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This seems like a wonderful project @stellabelle and will be a great complement to curie and steem guild. Those projects have particular guidelines which curators follow, but here your guideline is purely views, so you could help out the people who are falling through the cracks of the guidelines of the other two prominent curation projects!
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Exactly, I conceived of it as a complimentary thing, and with time, there would hopefully be no need for it. It's to catch authors who have high engagement and low payout.
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It sounds great to me! I think that is the goal of all curation efforts, keep them going until they are no longer needed. As distribution slowly evens out rewards will get progressively more even. :D
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I like the idea.
I make comments like that quite often and they are neither fake nor superficial. Sometimes you want to tell someone you enjoyed the post and you don't really have anything further to add. That doesn't mean the comment is any less valid.
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what i meant by that is, if the system is trying to be gamed with a lot of short, fake comments that are just generated by either bots or armies of people trying to create the appearance of engagement.
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I'm sure there would be a way to test if a bot is just repeatedly making the same comment using some kind of automated analysis - I doubt they vary what they say.
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sure, there's probably a way...
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I'm sure it can be done.
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Great idea! Also I think it would be easy to implement!
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yeah, met too........Now, for some whale supports.
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Two questions (I didn't watch the video yet. Excuse my ignorance if the questions are answered there):
Sometimes I think that I am a collector of messages like this one:
:)
Anyways, a great initiative. Roadmap here or there or everywhere, two biggest Steemit issues from the start until today still remain:
Your idea addresses issue #2.
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Posts will be sorted by the amount of comments they receive. A simple program can do this. From highest to lowest.
Then, the next step would be a human Engagement Team to look through say the top 50 or so highest engagement posts. People looking at the comments to make sure they are from humans, not bots. If a post has a bunch of bot comments, then they are scrapped from the High Engagement list. Also, if there are a bunch of fake comments, like "good job sir", those won't really count either. Long form, real human comments will be the indicator and that's why a human team of engagement specialists will be necessary in order for this success.
Think of this phase as training wheels. Once the way of engagement is established and people know what pays, then they will not try to game the system because there will be no reward for it. Humans still need jobs, and work within any automated system to ensure that the proper metrics are being rewarded.
A whale or whales SP would need to be utilized in order for this to become a reality....
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Yes, overlord's SP for a substantial reward :)
Part of checking the comments can be done by bots. You know, bots controlling bots ... Like producing a validity score for human comment to filter out obvious bots' generated comments.
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Yes! exactly. Bots sniffing out the rear ends of other bots and then throwing those into a "bad bot" garbage disposal. cheetah and other good bots would be exempt...on a whitelist.
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