Downvote pool

in downvotes •  6 years ago 

Here are some of my thoughts on a downvote pool combined with 50/50 and the new curve discussed in this post by @vandeberg and of course also after his recent post talking about the downvote pool which seems to have received a lot of pushback from the community.

Even though I've given this a lot of thought and have some really long discussions with Steemians I feel are a big part of this ecosystem and understand it rather well I have to warn you that I may miss some points in this post. It's been quite an eventful week with a lot of discussions, debates and opinions, one thing is certain though, everyone cares about Steem and wants the best for it and what we have right now is clearly not.

First off let's talk about the linear curve. I have often in posts mentioned that even though it's not great for content discovery and the main thing taking the opportunity of it right now are bid bots I always hoped that it would only be the beginning phase and that over time there would be more services, innovations and other usecases for it. Unfortunately not many occurred and the toll has been on content discovery. Many who remained powered up on Steem have either turned to receiving passive ROI through bid bots/distribution bots/small part "SMT's" (such as actifit/steemhunt/etc) while many others have instead decided to vote-trade their way forward leading to closed circles of users rewarding similar content daily, having a guaranteed vote waiting for them thus quality declining much like when an author is on an autovote.
The current curve does not leave a lot of leeway for good curation rewards, as mentioned many have already circumvented that problem by delegating to bots and receiving a bigger piece of the pie than just 25% curation but the results of that are a trending completely filled by authors that buy these votes of these delegators. I'm not saying we should do anything to fix our trending, trending itself may not be under the best parameters right now as though how it calculates a post from being trending which mostly just depends on rewards + age. If we are to focus on content discovery again though and at the same time reward curators or investors who instead of delegating to bid bots would delegate to curation projects and receive about the same ROI or higher this could fix our content discovery and curation.
There are few cases today where curators are able to earn a 100% ROI or higher on their vote value for doing good curation, with 50/50 and the updated and discussed curve this chance would increase a lot more. Of course though bid bots will still exist, maybe not to the extent we see today but there will always be interest of buying attention in an attention economy. While they may exist they will have to adjust quite a bit and at the same time I think many investors will move away from them as their ROI won't be as safe as delegating to a curation project that focuses on rewarding general quality content. With this in mind let's start talking about the downvote pool.

I read quite a bit of comments in the downvote pool post by @vandeberg and many keep bringing up the "look at how flags downvotes are already pushing away new and existing users, how will this change bring in new users and keep existing ones. This is something quite shortsighted in my opinion because how do we know how many have refrained from giving Steem a try because of the low quality trending, low quality post rewarding and in general bad distribution due to there only being upvotes which has a lot of authors producing lazy content - myself included - since it's so safe for them to do so and they have gotten comfortable with it and downvotes have become this unusual thing which as soon as it happens they get so surprised by it that they go onto the defensive and retaliate or unfollow/mute/etc. At the same time, these few cases of random accounts flagging newcomers or pushing them away are so few that I don't think it's something we need to focus our attention on. It's similar to blockchain tech in general where early on many will abuse it and use it for all the bad ways you can imagine but at the end of the day the benefits, advantages and what it allows you to do will outweigh the cons every time, we just gotta get there.

With about 0.01-0.1% of downvotes compared to upvotes in this day and age it is quite clear that we need them. Reddit has around 10% downvotes and there the upvotes barely even mean anything. Now obviously they can't be compared but a system that allows you to earn from it's pool and investors will clearly need some more downvote activity than we currently have, things have gotten too safe and comfortable and close to Steem just becoming another proof-of-stake chain with "content" only being a placeholder to receive your ROI. I believe downvotes will mostly be used for the bigger reward pool abusers on the chain which don't need to be named as many of us are aware of them already, I'm hoping they will be used well and organized and without bias but I can't promise it will cause a lot of chaos early on - that's the way of open-source tech and innovation and new experiments and that's a good thing. Name other big projects today that do listen to the community, have witnesses who want the best for the economy and of course get rewarded for it and at the same time are so flexible with changing and trying out new things - I don't believe there are many thus this is one of our strengths.

While I understand that authors may fear these changes and may turn to say things such as "we're already earning this little" I am hoping they see the bigger picture. As a manual curator myself I can already tell you that I'll be curating authors a lot more, a 50/50 change will already incentivize me to undelegate from @ocdb and use it towards curation again and at the same time I won't feel the need to post mediocre/lazy content and instead reward the real authors. I firmly believe that the 50/50 change will quickly cause authors to earn more rewards than what they are doing now. There is so much stake locked up in bid bots and distribution bots (the lesser of evils @ocdb has 4.3M SP right now) when it could instead be used for curating authors. The more we downvote what we perceive to be low quality content and clearly seeing that it has been bidded up the more we will make good curation even more effective. Remember that when you downvote a post you're at the same time rewarding everything else by that much spread out over all accounts - I know it feels like nothing but if enough of us do it we will quickly see the right kind of content being rewarded.

Having said that I fully expect there to be retaliation of authors comfortable with the way the system works today, especially those who have only been looking to take out as much value from our ecosystem as possible without giving back much. I also expect new secret bid bots to pop up but at the end of the day if we make downvoting & curating great again these authors will at least have to produce quality content they bid on, not what we currently are seeing on top of trending.

Looking forward to discussions about this, as I mentioned above there may be some examples, aspects and simulations I may have missed and would love to be pointed to in the comments so we can continue the discussions there. Right now though I believe these changes will only strengthen our platform and have been long due.

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I think you have made a reasonably good assessment of the Steemit EIP. I think is important to emphasis that there are 3 parts to the strategy (curation, downvote pool, and rewards curve). These three are used to increase the incentive to curate.

I understand the downvote pool is most likely to face the most resistance. There are a few ways this can be implemented. Offering curation rewards for downvotes would be a bad approach. It is good that is not being proposed. A downvote pool that offers no reward but does not take from a users voting power is far more reasonable. As it stands, downvoting costs the downvoter almost as much as the downvotee (assumption of 1 lost selfvote). That should not be the case.

I think part of the problem with all of this is that there are so many related moving parts it is hard for people to get a grasp on the entire picture. This means that people focus on a narrow view with a couple of points that affect them but don't necessarily consider other aspects.

I would say that in combination, a slight curve, 50/50 and some flags reduces a great deal of abuse and incentivizes better content as there is more in the pool and more manual curators (hopefully). To win support now, send a bid. With manual curators it means supplying what is in demand well enough that it gets support.

The bidbots can still operate but the "main" abusers will likely have to change their content or stop using them as they won't want to incur loss. If they really just want eyes on their post, the loss won't matter as it is the cost of advertising. Also, with the curve, the larger the votes are on a post, the more impact a downvote will have (as I have come to understand it). This means trending could look pretty damn good soon.

Because it is so complicated to visualize, I think the only way to really get a good feel of it, is to try.

I think retaliation is the biggest reason people hesitate to downvote the biggest, most powerful abusers. Especially if their Steem power is so low and barely puts a dent in the authors rewards. This is a comment I left for @whatsup that I will copy here to get your opinion on:

“Downvoting is important but there are at least two general limitations. 1) you need Steem power to effectively reduce overvalued rewards and 2) you put yourself out there for retaliation, which in my opinion is the main reason the current proposal will not work ... and why people hesitate to downvote now.

One solution would be for the community (aka a witness or Steemit) to create a downvote bot that people can submit requests for downvoting. The name could be @communitywatch. Importantly, people could submit these requests as encrypted memos so at the end of the day no one knows who flagged them, eliminating the possibility for retaliation. Now, the problem is how will people abuse this system? Good question! I don’t know. The specifics would need to be worked out but the bot could limit the number of of downvotes submitted by a specific user, such as 2 a day. Or it could limit it so one user could only downvote another user so many times a week. Something like that. I don’t know what the right balance would be.

This type of system would also give minnows more power and since they make up the most accounts, watchdogs would be everywhere.

Another question would be how strong a downvote should be cast for a given submission? I don’t know the solution to this. If one post gets many submissions for downvoting, maybe the strength of the downvote exponentially increases.

My initial thought is all requests should be 0.001 Steem or something like that so everyone can freely submit requests. Maybe it should be higher if needed to compensate the person running the account. Maybe Steemit could delegate stake to the account that is just sitting idle. Alternatively the community could delegate Steem power.

This is just a rambling idea I have had for a while. What are your thoughts? I have to imagine individuals would be more likely to go after powerful bad actors if they weren’t afraid their Steem account would get downvoted to dust.”

Good idea! At least better than developing anonymous downvote on-chain altogether.

No hardfork required. Another pro.


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for the community (aka a witness or Steemit) to create a downvote bot

@steemflagrewards already serves that purpose.
Delegate and follow their downvoting trail if you like that solution.
More downvotes helps the abuse fighters currently serving the community.

It won't solve the distribution issue.
Which is the pinnacle of the problem, imo.
I address that here.

@steemflagrewards is a great service but the one vital difference is it is not anonymous. Are you associate with them? If so, would they consider taking requests via encrypted memo? Thst would help in my opinion.

This link is good for one day.
https://discord.gg/nPZuAb

It is not anonymous, but you can set the bot not to downvote anybody with more stake than you.

Cool. Thanks.

While I agree on many of what you mention above, at the same time I feel it's all wrong. Those who will receive the downvotes are more likely to "retaliate"...so chaos indeed. It'll definitely become personal. I don't really think the a separate pool for downvotes is what we lack of...

As for the good content that needs to be discovered....it can still be found...do we really need a 50/50 reward system to wake up the whales and be more active?

How's that gonna help a newcomer? or a guy with 500SP whose vote at the moment is almost none existent? How will they be benefited from that? Hoping that they will receive a vote from a big account that wouldn't have landed on their post in a 75/25 reward system?

Everything is already complicated and it's gonna get worse...that's my point of view...

Those who will receive the downvotes are more likely to "retaliate"

I'm sure those doing the downvoting will be aware of this, if not there's always going to be a lot more upvoting power to help undo what others may find was unfair downvoting due to retaliation. There could even be guilds spawning to do just that.

do we really need a 50/50 reward system to wake up the whales and be more active?

How much stake is locked up in bid bots/other right now? 50 million SP? 80? It's not news that everyone will go for what is most profitable to them, in this day and age it is also pushing those that would want to curate to do the same thing cause else they're left with lower stake in the end than those going for max ROI and not caring about curation and rewarding authors.

If it starts with “If everyone would just...” It will never happen. People don’t behave like ants, acting as a unit in support of a greater system. You have to build systems that work based on people behaving selfishly. At the end of the day that’s what a corporation is as well as a military. In a corporation you work for your own personal enrichment in service to a larger system. In the military you’re legally obligated once you’re enlisted so this is also for self preservation.

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You have to build systems that work based on people behaving selfishly.

I agree, for a long time many curators have had to just be altruistic for there to be any sort of natural curation happening. That's why 50/50 will do authors more good in the end while at the same time keeping curators/investors happy and not relying to delegating their stake to only selling it for attention to the highest bidder.

I honestly don't mind giving it a shot, I think the 50/50 split could very well improve curation. The thing I feel like won't work in this whole plan is the "group/community" flagging.

I'd rather we just put it out there, so people will see it doesn't work and we can move on to finding another solution.

I think for us to have trending page that doesn't suck, we'll have to use a more complex algorithm to adjust for the real life conditions of the platform. Bots, curation trails etc.

There is a clear tendency to focus only on the static effects of 50/50. It’s clear that at least some manual curators would become much more active after going 50/50. I’ve been told smoke.io has 50/50 curation there’s some actual data - possibly applicable - in existence already.

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One of the main reasons I invested a little in Smoke early on was due to 50/50 and from what I've witnessed so far there's always quality content on trending. It's going to be interesting seeing how that will work on Steem, especially now with stake being more distributed.

About the issue of bid bots actually. Majorily one of the uses that bid bots supposed to have is to help your content gained visibility and exposure. I.e if your post is of quality content. But also this bid bots also can't work without delegated steem power. The bid bots have now been misuse by many to promote low junk quality content up there.

I am not trying to defend the bid bots non am I trying to discriminate the bid bots but I am just trying to show both the good and bad side of it all.

This statement you said "The more we downvote what we perceive to be low quality content and clearly seeing that it has been bidded up the more we will make good curation even more effective" yea. Thus statement is also talking about how the bid bots are been misuse like I have stated earlier. Low quality contents are been bidded up even though they are not worth it, or let me say the quality is low. There are good quality contents still out there but lack exposure, and visibility and this can even make the authors to leave the community out of frustration because I once thought of quitting steemit out of frustration.

If the manual creation can be address, it I'll surely help the community, helps the author who are feeling frustrated due to low value on their high quality contents .

Like I said earlier, I amM just trying to share my viewonn it. Nothing more. My comments is welcome with some contributions

That's where the downvote pool will have the most effect, today we can't even downvote low quality bidded up content. As in even if everyone active with stake would try there wouldn't be enough stake to downvote those posts down from trending.

The article says 'what we propose', so is this going to happen? The last time STINC, sent one of these out re: the downvote it happened real quick.

I dont delegate much of my SP to Actifit etc.., as you may or not be aware.. I like the power to vote on things.

What you mentioned about Circle Jerking can happen inadvertently due to sheer human connections and friendships. I'm all up for a different way of doing things, so I say lets try it.

The separate pool for flagging? Yes, you see down votes all the time on YouTube etc.. but where there's money involved it tends to get personal. I don't see it making a whole lot of difference, do you?

where there's money involved it tends to get personal

Yes but on the other side of the coin, where money is involved there is a lot more profit motivate toward milking rewards, which makes downvotes even more important.

There are two sides to it for sure, but it is important to indeed consider both sides.

What you mentioned about Circle Jerking can happen inadvertently due to sheer human connections and friendships.

Yeah and those are all great, after all it's a social media platform so no one is gonna judge someone for voting on their friends. There are though unfortunately "friends" that are only friends cause they own a similar amount of stake and enjoy getting the ROI and attention of trending posts no matter the quality/quantity.

I don't see it making a whole lot of difference, do you?

I think the downvote pool will make a big difference, I was not sure about it being that high to begin with (25%) but considering those that don't want to use it won't I think it could be a good number to fight all of what users believe is abuse of the pool.

As @tarazkp said though, there's so many different variables in effect here, the best thing we can do is try.

Oh and about your first question, it will depend if the witnesses agree and accept the HF.

On reddit, they have some provisions so you don't see the votes right away ( at least with the comments)
The thing I do fear is down vote organization. Like minded people get together and push their votes or down votes for their gain. If this has a bunch more people on it, it will be hard to regulate.

I think interactions in posts should mean something. Trending posts with 1 comment is a bit ridiculous. I think we need more dialogue and interaction in posts other than the upvote.

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I agree with your ideas and we should be having more often conversation reviewing ways to improve the experience of people here.

I would just add to the discussion the importance that this platform should be doing in terms of reinforcing the message to push good quality content and not promoting quantity without any substance.

I see a lot of repeating posts that in the end don't add any value and are just there to have quantity in order to get their​ daily votes. This also includes the 'spam' of some apps that post in your name to promote their services using your rating, activities or information​ and sometimes offer upvotes to do that.

Yeah the trending does definitely need a rework.

Unfortunately hiding votes does not work on a blockchain, but there are a lot of other good things that come out of this instead. :)

We need a downvote pool just with the current system or the old reward curve but not 50/50 curation..
Bid bots, vote sellers and other non-curators also profit from 50/50

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  ·  6 years ago (edited)

also profit from 50/50

Yeah but the thing is that they won't profit as much as curating on good content that will get more votes on top or won't get downvoted. That's the idea afaik, if it's going to be more than delegators receiving both bids and curation rewards from a bid bot or distribution bot is what we will have to see. The free market will adjust quickly I believe.

I've also been thinking how it's going to affect @ocdb, we're gonna have to remove the "10% guaranteed profit on vote" but I don't think as many posts from whitelisted authors will be getting downvotes compared to bid botters.

But the bid bot market decides which posts have top payouts..

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One issue with rewarding real quality content is it punishes the mentally and intellectually impaired and rewards the educated and literate people at their expense. People with below average intelligence and less ability to think and rationalize will suffer disproportionately.

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Nicely presented :)

Hopefully most people are up to speed on this now, and although no-one can predict how it will turn out, the current setup is clearly far from ideal and I think the proposed changes are worth a shot.

Looking forward to comments being rewarded much much more frequently with the 50/50.

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I was just talking about comments yesterday and the curation penalty, no harm happened to lowering it to 15mins for posts, could go even lower but with comments it should be max 1 minute or something. Right now it discourages people to vote on comments cause they know they won't receive any curation rewards for them, with 50/50 it would be even more discouraging.

  ·  6 years ago Reveal Comment

The curation problem exists because people have short term self interest and don't understand the value of building communities. I commend the benevolent whales who want to fix these issues but I think the issue of curation is fundamentally broken because of user interface problems which is also part of the reason the downvote pool will not work as some hope.

Free downvotes provide financial incentive to downvote everything that you do not upvote in order to maximize rewards, regardless of the content. Very few people will downvote a wallet larger than theirs, and fewer still will spend hours scouring new posts for the worst content to downvote. Think of how few people manually curate by upvoting right now, and consider how many fewer people will spend any time looking for content to downvote. Downvoting will be used primarily by the largest wallets and malevolent actors with grudges, as they are now.

Consider the emotional upheaveal, chaos, and damage that happens when someone is downvoted, and then multiply that by every active user on the platform especially the largest accounts. How much damage will a single errant whale on a temper tantrum be able to do?

I think proponents are assuming that users will behave with long-term community interest instead of short-term self-interest. These specific changes will only solidify the control that the largest wallets have over the platform, which exacerbates the problems of echo chamber, circlejerking, and stake-weighted self-interested lobbying for favorable platform mechanisms. Will new users feel comfortable disagreeing with someone that has a larger wallet, or will they stay silent and look elsewhere for social media interactions? The downvote pool, when combined with non-linear reward structure, will ensure that the power to reward anything on the network lies in the hands of a few power players who can more easily dictate which opinions or content can be rewarded and which ones can't.

I commend the benevolent whales who want to fix these issues but I think the issue of curation is fundamentally broken because of user interface problems which is also part of the reason the downvote pool will not work as some hope.

You are right on that part of the interface problems even to downvote someone outside the official steemit webpage. For example, I use partiko and busy.org and they only offer the upvote.

So since the interface is not synced​ across different services people that use other apps to post on steemit will not even have that functionality. And I have reasons to believe they will not go to the official page just to downvote something on purpose.

Any general interface app will most likely implement that to appear when the hard fork happens.

Unfortunately there is nothing to suggest that people will curate more with 50/50 but there is everything to suggest that they will not.

I know its hard for those that curate on steem to understand someone that doesnt care about curation.
Its the same thing in life. Thats why you get conflicts based on worldviews and culture.
50/50 will benefit you and a few curators. To think, for example freedom or fyrst will turn into curators because you raised the curation is actually the shortsighted view.
Do you think people will downvote more?
No they wont. Fear of retaliation will still be there.

This is the problem with such changes. Those that propose it assume the very best outcome instead of the realistic one.

@liberosist made a good comment on the post in question and a post on his blog. I think he summed it up well.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

To think, for example freedom or fyrst will turn into curators because you raised the curation is actually the shortsighted view.

Nobody thinks that AFAIK. The realistic goal and more likely outcome is that they delegate to someone or some type of service which takes curation more into account (and that if they don't they will be penalized with lower rewards and less ability to milk the reward pool).

Do you think people will downvote more?

Yes I do, but how much is a question.

No they wont. Fear of retaliation will still be there.

Right now there is fear of retaliation, and in addition a system which makes the downvote cost about as much to the downvoter as it takes away from the upvoter. This is goofy, insane, and it should be no great mystery why there are almost NO downvotes (supposedly something like 0.01% to 0.1%), even by stakeholders who don't post and don't care about retaliation.

When the cost of downvotes is reduced, there will still be the fear of retaliation, but not the enormous cost, so there will be some increase in downvotes. We'll have to see whether it is enough to do the job.

GINA is busted, almost missed this.

Nobody thinks that AFAIK. The realistic goal and more likely outcome is that they delegate to someone or some type of service which takes curation more into account.

Well, they do think it unfortunately. I gave them two as an example of those maximizing personal gain but the point was that those that want to max will always go maxing if the opportunity is there.

Why would delegating to a curation service be something they would do?
Selling votes would still be the best option for them. The loss in liquid payments replaced with increase in curation.
A curation service, imo will never be able to match a vote selling service in ROI consistently.
Sure, the gap between what curators earn and bot delegators will reduce (Which i think is the main goal of this proposal.I find curator jealousy to be the actual motivator behind this proposal, but thats just my opinion)
but that doesnt really change the fact that selling votes isnt going away.

Curators can right now earn quite a bit more then bot delegators and that doesnt really mean anything. i wonder what kind of ROI the cheneats script is getting nowadays.

This is goofy, insane, and it should be no great mystery why there are almost NO downvotes

There are downvotes. Say something that a whale doesnt like, get into an argument and youll see a downvote flying towards you.. That ofc is rare, but with this you give psychos free ammunition and you let them loose on a creator base that had 25% stripped from their payouts, their growth slowed down and their motivation reduced.
But still, fear of retaliation is why you arent seeing much towards the community downvoting, or witnesses or large account creators.
Guys like Bernie will have a field day. Free downvotes, increased payouts once consolidates all his SP in one account and faster growth in comparison to now.
Will this stop that?
What about the circle jerk daily photography orcas? Will that stop?
Why would it stop? Will you downvote them? Are you against photography? Do you hate art?
No matter the change those that arent interested in curation will not be interested in curation and those that want to circle jerk will always circle jerk (Theres something called: Putting in minimal effort required to eliminate the chance of a flag)

People will continue acting the way they act right now and i think that indeed, creators will leave STEEM. Especially good ones. No behaviors will change and all that happens is that you took from creators and gave more to big SP holders.
Which could turn out positive for some shitty ones because they can now get more attention with the quality bar lowered..

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I have a new proposal how to deal with the bid bot problem: add a small "fee" for delegations, and incentivize manual curation instead: https://steemit.com/steemit/@vikisecrets/hf21-eip-solution-proposal-for-bid-bots-and-delegation-abuse-add-a-small-fee-for-delegations

" The evidence is that a contributor who is down-voted produces lower quality content in future that is valued even less by others on the network. What’s more, people are more likely to down-vote others after they have been down voted themselves. The result is a vicious spiral of increasingly negative behaviour that is exactly the opposite of the intended effect. "

Nobody takes care on the ethical, social and psychological effect what this will have.

A huge mistake!

As if we not have enough problems to get and hold users!

This should be the No. 1 Priority.

How to bring new users on board and hold old users on the platform.

And the Downvote Pool will lead to the opposite, some bigger users already start powering down.

A downvote is always a negative thing, even if we have to downvote stolen content or spam, it's a punishment.
To force punishments on a social network will bring toxicity, the opposite what we want.

I understand all the technical aspects, but there are other solutions to fix them.

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A world with no toxicity is worse.

Congrats, wonderful answer

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  ·  6 years ago (edited)

I understand all the technical aspects, but there are other solutions to fix them

In fact there are not. Saying it or wishing it does not make it so.

We need to direct our efforts toward minimizing the toxicity and negative effects of a tool which, as with all tools, can be used for good or evil, but which is absolutely needed by the good. Probably that means education, so people understand that receiving a downvote is not a personal attack, it is another stakeholder expressing their legitimate opinion (and it is because all human beings have legitimate opinions whether you like them or agree with them or not) on how the reward pool should be allocated, and also reminding people that if you do not get the rewards you feel you deserve, it is not only the fault of the downvoters but also also the fault of other stakeholders who did not upvote enough.

Or more to the point, you did not produce a contribution which stakeholders, collectively (both upvoters and downvoters) deemed worthy of a larger payout. You can blame them, blame a subset of them (those evil, nasty downvoters!) or you can work harder and adapt and produce contributions which are more valued.

Ordinary social users will not understand it, getting a downvote is a personal thing for them.
We have to make the improvements with the eyes and the thinking of ordinary users, they are not interested in studying all these aspects and when someone new join Steem, he have to learn already more then enough.

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There is no other solution to this problem. We need downvotes, or we will ultimately need to get rid of the reward pool altogether. I would suggest, therefore, that instead of continuing to whine about the necessity of downvotes, we work harder to figure out how to make it easier to understand and help people to understand better. Because there really is no other alternative.

That's not whining, that's caring about Steem
There are always different solutions to fix a problem, but to make downvotes easier is not a solution.
We need a kind of downvote, yes, but no solution what animate people to downvote more and this solution is only a solution for the big players here on steem.

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There are not always different solutions. To make a car go, you need an engine. Maybe there are different fuels you can use, or electric, or air-powered, but ultimately you still need an engine.

There is not going to be any way around downvotes. You can dress them up in different ways but they're going to be there. This has been analyzed to death since before Steem even existed, and many times since. The conclusion is really pretty clear.

I respect your passion and caring about Steem but on the substance of the matter, we ultimately disagree. Sometimes what is needed to save something you care about is a bit of tough love, and difficult adjustment periods, not just saying what people want to hear.

And, a downvote isn't only a personal attack for them, it takes away their money, that's what an ordinary user feels when he gets downvoted on Steem
We have to think from their view, not from ours

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  ·  6 years ago (edited)

We have to educate so that people have a better understanding of how Steem actually works (and part of that could be UI changes to help convey this better). Rewards are allocated by the balance between upvotes and downvotes. Upvotes do not give and downvotes do not take away. It is the reward pool, and not individual voters, which pays out at the conclusion of voting depending on the balance of votes and how that balance compares with other content also competing for a share of the pool.

Were you here when the 50/50 was changed to 75/25?
I came later.

My post on the topic.

Maybe they felt the 100% inflation + curation rewards were too high and wanted to pump post payouts to hype Steem even more knowing it'll pump shortly after payouts went out and Steem went to top 3 briefly.

There are many moving parts to steem.

Does the fork pass the witnesses any time soon?
Or, do we keep waiting for smteees!?

I was but mostly just lurking, if I recall it was before payouts started and according to others was mainly a decision by @dan for unknown reasons.

I think dan had the best interests of steem in mind up to near the end.
Once it was clear that he wasn't in charge, i think that changed.

I know stinc has intentionally put us here.
Why it is insisted that they run things at this point seems counter productive, to me.

I am fairly certain that this whine is at its time.

So, count me in on the flag pool and a change to the curve, just not the one proposed.
I think rewarding investors is good bidness, but not to the point that they break the game.

Hmm I think you missed the major fact of human behaviour , everyone comes with their set of value-self gain and not to forget jelousy ....

humans are always motivated by self-interest and selfishness, even in what seem to be helpfulness. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from so doing. motive for all voluntary human action is the desire to experience pleasure or to avoid pain....

I do agree on the value of downvotes, they are needed, but as we dont actually have a set rule for them, i see them in a posibilety to be missused...
In my world, i prefear posts with photos AS thats my intrest, soo i then should go down vote allllll posts that dont have pictures? AS this is MY set of value ;)

Then also add, clicks, set amount of peeps working together to down vote.. hmmM O.o
I might have missed something buut em red flishlets, paddeling for their life...how will this help them?? a bigger fish down vote will kill them either way & that i mean both psycologically and reputation vice here...

In my world, i prefear posts with photos AS thats my intrest, soo i then should go down vote allllll posts that dont have pictures? AS this is MY set of value

Yes, you are entitled to do that. (And FWIW my posts don't have photos; if you think I'm too lazy to find a good photo to put on my post, you would be correct, and justified in downvoting.)

yes at this point; i am entitled to do soooo & thats also my point with the fact of human behaviour........ we dont act/do what dosent give us a gain and i see that this , can maybe be a problem..?
Ha ha naaa, why would i do that?? Your posts miiight be fab with out a pix ;) LOL
I hope you understand i was juust making a point with that example; he have nooo picture in this post & look at that, i hade upv it ;)

You got a 43.89% upvote from @ocdb courtesy of @acidyo! :)

@ocdb is a non-profit bidbot for whitelisted Steemians, current max bid is 30 SBD and the equivalent amount in STEEM.
Check our website https://thegoodwhales.io/ for the whitelist, queue and delegation info. Join our Discord channel for more information.

If you like what @ocd does, consider voting for ocd-witness through SteemConnect or on the Steemit Witnesses page. :)

Bid bots have destroyed content quality on steem The only solution would be a huge overhaul of the entire frontend to ban them and I don't see that happening.