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Recording of transcript including reading of Kenneth Shoulders & JohnHutchison's 2010 meeting where they talked about the near infinite potential of "Charge Clusters" also known as "Exotic Vacuum Objects" (EVO) also known as "Condensed Plasmoids", here are some of the claimed properties of EVOs:

• Unlimited Energy production
• Antigravity
• Propulsion
• Transmutation
• Teleportation
• Unimaginable destructive capability

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  ▶️ Watch on DTube
  ▶️ Watch Source (IPFS)

He also discussed the value of the academic approach, patents and how to problem solve and time manage as a cutting edge inventor.

Here is the reading of the transcript below on Soundcloud

This is a sit down chat transcript, Kenneth Shoulders and John Hutchison were in the room with their respective wives, Claire and Nancy

John Hutchison
Have you seen George's new book that he has written about me? It's pretty rough.

KS
George?

John Hutchison
Hathaway

KS
No I didn't...

..and any roughness should be his own, I never saw such a mishandled project in my whole life. It starts with the Prince, right on down, and I tried my best, funny story I think, I'll tell it right now, like it or not, you can cut it.

But, I was working with and for the Prince, like a lot of people

Nancy
For the Prince?

KS
Prince, Prince Hans of Liechtenstein, and erm, John, impressed me as a person that could do some things of value. He didn't know quite how he was doing them perhaps, give him some space, give him what he wants, let him figure it out, let him do what he can do whilst he can still do it. Now this was at a time that the technical stuff was pretty heavy.

John Hutchison
Uhhumm

KS
He wasn’t into the TV promotion side of things very much

John Hutchison
Right

KS
So I have a lot of faith in you being able to do it and I remember one session that we had at your place

Nancy
When was that?

KS
I don't know…

John Hutchison
‘95 I think

KS
1895 is definitely out when he hasn't come yet but 19 something and um we were just musing over it, about what do we need, what basis to move and John, for the longest time, just sat, most entranced, and finally said “sunshine” and then reduced it very clearly to “California” and er “somewhere on the coast”, those are the pictures I understand very well.

Didn't need more than those few words you know, to say everything, but that set me off on a Crusade, if you will, to get the prince to support John for whatever it took, and it wouldn't be that much on the coast in California where the sun shines well, you know. And, er, that's all what the whole thing was and I jumped on the prince and I was, un-princely about it to say the least we've been together quite a bit and worked on some things with him jointly and knew how he functioned pretty well, and yet in some areas that he was wavering on his belief a little bit and he had to be nudged pretty hard.

So I started nudging and we communicated entirely by mail only just the US mule kind of thing, and it would take about 2 weeks turnaround time. And I noticed it started out with the usual signatures on the bottom of Hans, everyone who knows him called him Hans and he responds two Hans and the more I drilled him, the tougher these signatures got, Hans-Adam Liechtenstein, Prince Hans-Adam Liechtenstein, Prince Hans-Adam Liechtenstein III [actually II]. Ok! I’ll go for the John thing, so we talked a lot about anything after that, so that was my shot at trying to get John what I knew he needed and he knew what he needed, to say the key words all right, and my job was to supply it, easy, to do, but couldn't call The Prince over the phone.

Nancy
Was Hathaway in that?

KS
Hathaway was kind of a senior technical advisor to the prince, is one way to look at it, he was technical not theoretical that was my put on it. Hathaway had far too classic a background, he’s far to classic in his approach to things, every bit of the work that he’s done, had been what I’d call dead classic, you know go and look it up, that's all that you're doing, it's just piecing everything [together] that you can look up. You know John is working on something that you can't look up, you can't piece it together, you can't find the parts, you know that's the kind of stuff that I worked on and I knew the rules you've got a wrong, you can’t get the kind of answers you want to the things the way you do them. And er, why? well obviously they’re afraid of losing their academic connections, because what we have to do, to make progress in our field, is to be very non-academic.

Nancy
What do we have to do in our field?

KS
Anyone that's in lead science, anyone that's out there in the exploratory science if you will, exploratory science, cannot tolerate the rules of academia - they will perish, they won't find anything ok, it's so easy not to find stuff, and you won't even know what you didn’t find that's the hell of it. So er…

Nancy
So what are your rules?

KS
Rules are generated steadily over a long period of time. I can enumerate the few of them but most of them are in the way I actually work, I can see some division lines, I can see what it takes to be an academician, I know what size project you can work on, it can’t be too big. I know that you have to publish, because that’s the only way of carrying on a project, is [to] cut it up into tiny little pieces, you have to assemble it somewhere else, so you must publish, so it’s publish or perish.

What it does to the science world is, is publish and perish, I mean it kills things, because I don’t even use a notebook, I can’t rely on writings of any kind to help me, they’re almost all negative effects, they take energy out of you without putting any back in. I only want to learn enough to climb to the next level of progress, and be given the grace of standing there long enough, to catch my breath, before I have to rise again to the next level.

So I step, step, step, step as often as I can - and my only guidelines are just that - what’s it take to move forward, and you can look around you and there are so many things that people do in the normal science world, that is, just retarded when you get down to it - it holds you back. ‘You must not’… generates a list that is miles long, you must not, mess with patents, they’re useless to take you to the next step, oh, they’re supposed go get you some money from somebody that’s gonna pay you so you can get to the next step. Save your time, don’t do all that stuff, just do the work that it takes to get you to the next step - you’ll get there quicker.

Nancy
Do you have patents?

KS
A lot of patents, from things I did in the past, that I was required to do by the system that I operated in that I don’t have to worry about any more.

Nancy
What system did you operate in?

KS
Borderline academic, it was basically a commercial system, the commercial system demands patent, because you are supposed to make money and they’re supposed to help you make money.

Well i finally decided that you have to forget the money part, really, ‘cause almost everything in the money part, drags you down, keeps you from moving to the next step. You spend more time promoting - to get a few bucks.

Nancy
Well this is interesting, because this is what John’s mantra from the beginning was I don’t care about the money, I don’t care about the money

John Hutchison
Well, I’m not even a scientist.

KS
He has to not care, at least as much as he can afford.

Now, I can support myself in science endeavours if, two things, if I don’t do it the usual way, like I have to build everything that I use, academia says, you have to have an instrument that is qualified to produce results that somebody else understands, well, sure, that’s nice, if you want to give your competitor a jump on ya, because that’s what it amounts to, in some ways of looking at it. But er, I have to build all my instruments, partly because that’s what a frontier science demands, frontier instruments, for frontier science. You can’t buy anything of value, you can buy something that’s way off and left field, and try and adapt it to your needs, but you are going to spend more time doing that, than you would if you’d just taken the dang step and moved on.

Nancy
What are you building now?

KS
Look it up on the web, haha

Nancy
Oh, so should I look up “Ken Shoulders, what are you building now?” haha

KS
Just Ken Shoulders will do and the first three things you’ll get up are a website that I post stuff on.

Nancy
Do you post all your results up on a website?

KS
I post results that I want posted. A large part of that is patent oriented, but it’s in reverse orientation to what you would do for a commercial outfit. I put out what I want in the public domain, that will never stop me from doing what I’m doing that er, other people can do freely, which will aid me, I’m glad to see them do it, I’ll help them a little bit, but erm, I sure as hell don’t put the good stuff up there, that’s for sure.

Nancy
The website’s a very descriptive tool, the website's ‘kenshoulders.com’?

KS
Nope

Nancy
Just a sec

KS
Krscfs - it’s just a list, that’s all I need, I just need a list to send to people to look up.

My world was a different world, anybody that’s going to do different stuff, new stuff, has to separate themselves from the community of bankers, in science, they will not think forward, they, think dollars, and dollars are almost always moving backwards.

Nancy
So, along the lines of, along the lines of Tesla, along the lines of, who, who would you compare … and I know John and you have been working together, who would you compare your, it’s awful, because my work is so different to anybody else's, but haha

KS
‘My kind of work is so different from anybody else's [joking]’ haha

Nancy
So who else, can you say ‘well, you know, if we didn’t have somebody doing frontier science x, we wouldn’t be here today’ so what’s, give us an idea of a frontier scientist that you’ve been…

KS
I pushed microelectronics long before micro electronics was ready to be born. Nobody wanted to hear about it, because I talked to commercial people mostly, nobody wanted to do any of it, because it cost money, and it’s not going to pay, until I accidentally, through multiple probings dropped in on MIT one day, just at the right time. By the right time I mean, there was money available and they suddenly had a need for what they thought would be micro stuff, but they didn’t have a foggy notion about what to do. So I took all the stuff I developed in my shop, I’ve always had a nice little shop that I could make things in. I brought all that forward into MIT. I developed it up to a certain level with horrible inefficiency, or I should say, horrible efficiency - whichever, it wasn’t very good. But you know, I got Claire out of it! Haha

Nancy
Is that where you guys met?

Claire
Yeah, I was a college graduate and I had a job as a technical assistant at the old Barter building where I was working on old magnetic core computers, the first ones. Really ancient machine, we took people on tours of the building.

KS
But she made the mistake of showing up over in John Linvill’s laboratory and John Linvill had become the administrative director of this project.

Claire
Bill Linvell, not John

KS
Yeh, sorry, John was the guy on the west coast, but erm, basically she er, appeared one day, in a little group of us and got attached to me, so that was the end of it. Haha. And that was 58 years ago [in 2010]. It’s a while.

Claire
It’s a wonder we’re still married.

KS
But that was a good call.

What I was saying was, historically, I was at the very frontier, of er, microelectronics, I moved from there, from MIT, to SRI, made the process progress faster and bigger, and erm, micro-stuff just took off and I was at the technological level - I made the instruments, the machines, the processes, everything that goes with it.

Claire
You changed a lot of machines too, the mass spectrometer

KS
Ah yeah, well that’s a, that’s a thing that, is a commercial sideline, I needed a spectrometer, made one, right kind, nobody else had them, and er, couple a guys were in next door, decided to put it into a business, what they saw - and they did. The business eventually grew into Finnigan™ MAT Mass Spectrometry, a German company MAT eventually bought, bought Finnigan instruments out, they are the world’s largest supplier of mass spectrometers now, and have been for a few years - with my little gizmo - for 20 years, it didn’t change a bit, hardly. They just made it easier to use.

Well, now, I saw that field grow, and I knew a lot of what made the good stuff go, wrong turns were taken and all that, so I’ve had a chance to watch our field grow, several different times, and erm, I’m trying to take all [the] steps I can, to make sure that this field, this EVO business, doesn’t grow the wrong way, and it’s darn hard to steer the thing.

Nancy
OK.Ok

KS
That is the game

Nancy
What is the, the game is erm, to have EVO knowledge be used for positive things, instead of weapons of mass destruction?

KS
As far as I am concerned, there has got to be a universal law that says, whatever you do good, there’s got an equal bad side. So sure they’ll be a lot of positive things and there are some plain, dark, black things that are gonna happen too. That’s because people let it happen or cause it, so you can count on it. If it’s very, very hard to do some of the evil things, then they’ll apply more energy to it, and then finally, they’ll balance out - but whatever it is, there are plenty of bad things to be had.

Nancy
What things could happen with EVOs?

KS
It has the ability to penetrate stuff and then explode when inside something, and it’s incredibly energetic, just unimaginably powerful, so that, you shoot through stuff if you want to get something on the other side. Doesn’t hurt anything on the way through, but boy, it sure created a commotion on the other side. It’s a kind of a gun - but its a gun you don’t have to reload - it just shoots - and an incredible amount of total energy can be put out. So its destructive power is almost planetary in extent. It’s. big. Stuff.

Nancy
What’s the positive things it can be used for?

KS
You name something that you want, that you need to be good, and it’d probably be the thing that does it for you.

Say, anti-gravity, the propulsion properties are just incredible, it will be able to push anything you want, anywhere you want.

It enshrouds stuff, this is all written in some of these things on the web. When it enshrouds things, it can allow them to disappear, it does make atoms disappear in my laboratory work, well that’s interesting, you know, because, when they disappear, I can transport all this stuff through to somewhere else, and it reappears. That’s teleportation. So, it does that, very nicely.

As an energy source, it’s just incredible, we can forget all of our energy problems. We can forget all of our propulsion problems.

The good side to some of that is, is that it will allow interaction with, erm, humanoids, interaction with biological species, oids in general, and so, this interaction, I don’t know how far it goes, but I believe, you’d be able to enter a body, with these things, in their dark state, adapt to what that body is, and extract it, to become another one of those things, externally, that’s er, not got a good name in the, er, “spirit world”, where most of these stories originate. But it’s er, a form of transmutation, if you want to look at it that way, it’s a form of, teleportation of sorts, because you can take an entity, and put the entity over there [gesturing a different place with his hands], by copy techniques, or move techniques - relating it to computer language. The copy and paste one would get you there in a hurry, it’s super-luminal it looks like, things go faster than light - we’re not bound by that rule anymore.

Nancy
And how much of these theories have you documented actually.

KS
I don’t document anything as a theory, I make measurement and put a name on the measurement, now I might have to make a false name to keep it from interfering with the existing name, nomenclature in science is a bad long story - bad nomenclature. I try not to make any new names, if I can afford it, but I am often forced to. This effect of, er, of teleportation, er… let’s start back. I don’t have to change any names on, erm transmutation, it is just flat out transmutation, with the funny exception, there are never any hot species…

Nancy
Hot Species?

KS
I never create any radioactive species..

Nancy
Ok

KS
Where as transmutation is normally thought of as a hot species, as you would tend to make hot ones more often than you would, er, neutral species - not hot. But er, isotopically is the only way we can speak when we talk transmutation, and we use an instrument called a mass spectrometer, I build those well, mine, anybody else's, any work you wanna go to, in the literature where people have said we have a funny thing going on here fellas, transmutation, we’re not supposed to get that, that takes a lot of energy, we’re not putting a lot of energy in - but you’re transmuting, therefore, you’re putting energy in somehow.

That’s a whole separate question, is, what is this class of writings you do? I don’t write for memory purposes because I rarely ever go back and read anything. I write for projective purposes, I have a partial idea and I develop that idea out into a more complete form that maybe others that follow would want to read about it, and look at it. But, so, I do write to expand a notion. But, as far as I am concerned, it is dead as soon as it is written, I’d just sooner move right on. But those that are slighted to be presented, maybe one in 50, such writings are put on that list - and they’re never academic in nature - they’re never published lists of numbers or things like that, that have to do with erm, that would make a paper - that would be qualified as an academic paper. It's a notion, it's a bunch of notions laced together ideas.

Actually, one of the recent ones is something of interest. In measurements I was seeing some very strange things happening to these dark, black EVOs. They’re ones that are almost charge less and about to disappear from this universe. Which is one of the funny, creepy things, if you let them alone, they will get cooler, that's a term I've got to throw in here, but they will get blacker and blacker, less and less charge, until they're gone.

Now electrical engineering does not let charge disappear, but it does in this multiple toroidal form, you see an EVO, is a cluster, it's one way of thinking of it, of electrons and you know and physics says, yeah, well, you can get Cooper Pairs at two, Muons [207 × electron], and maybe Tauons [3477.48 × electron] beyond that… they are all just clusters of electrons of a larger size - but heck, they rarely go above the 100s and I see them into the billions worth - no trouble at all. So I am working with a WAY upscale class of guys.

They are physically large enough to er, see, they are about a third of the diameter of a hair, but what are you seeing? Well usually it's as a result of their interaction with something else. It will blow something to kingdom come, then you look at the crater size, oh that was a 5 micrometer one, oh, and look at that, there's a 20 and it's my present job too get them bigger and bigger and bigger and that's tied up with safety, very much. So I've over worried the problem, I think I've got way too much safety built into my world.

Nancy
So you’re um

John Hutchison
That’s nice stuff, to build them bigger and bigger Ken, wow, I didn’t realise they were that big, a third of a hair

KS
I didn’t know that..

John Hutchison
No no, I mean like a third of the size of a hair, that’s incredible.

KS
Oh, no, that’s where the normal ones are, that’s easy.

John Hutchison
Wow

KS
I've been able to use these techniques of these little bitty machines I make, to get them up to 100 micrometres so far, without anything really awful, unless I make an intentional move to blow them up - I can make them explode - and I didn't think I'd ever get to that part, I thought I would be at 20 micrometres plus and they'd be blowing up and I couldn't stop it.

John Hutchison
Oh my goodness

KS
But no, they'd rather, under the conditions I build them and hold them in, they’d rather live and/or, if you don't attend them they'll just fade away and disappear, they're gone.

Nancy
Are they living?

John Hutchison
It’s really, really

Nancy
You said they’d rather live, are they are living?

KS
Er, not by our definition of life

John Hutchison
No

KS
They exist, you know, er, I think therefore I am, I haven't seen any of them looking back at me, winking, or anything like that, so they aren't that kind of alive - but boy they have law, they have association, they have every kind of law that I am, I necessarily have to obey to exist, they have the same kind of existence, they have their boundaries, I have my boundaries. As long as I maintain the er, the cradle I call this thing that I work with them in, and certain parameters exist under the cradle, they live, they exist at least.

Nancy
Did you create them

KS
Oh yeh, absolutely, I start out with baby ones, that's just a technique I happen to have - that’s old but, I start with tiny tiny ones and watch them grow and I can grow them and grow them.

Nancy
Do they get feed, what do you feed them?

KS
More electrons, they need electrons, they become electrons

Nancy
And they’re in a vacuum?

KS
They can be just about anywhere, but the vacuum is just handy for me because I can analyse them in a vacuum - they can exist in a solid, they literally, I think in some of John’s [John Hutchison] earliesh work, in the middle of the middle and I’ve seen a paper that showed things like that and many other cold fusion guys have probably created them and kept them overnight and when they come in next morning they blow to smithereens - but I think they did some wrong things, they didn’t have to do those things.

Nancy
Do they exist anywhere and everywhere?

KS
They are very ubiquitous things, extremely so, you can shuffle across this road, touch this handle, a little spark, and you will have created them - there will be little marks on that door knob [that] are the witness marks, that I talk about. They are just everywhere, you get out of your car, rub across your seat, snap… you just made one. You thought they were just electric sparks, oh yeh? Go look carefully at where it struck - carry off that piece of stuff, analyse it in an electron microscope, you will find all kinds of what witness marks look just exactly like.

Nancy
Witness marks, tracks

KS
Well, they’re not a track par se, but they are a mark. They track up to that point and then exploded.

Nancy
And when they explode, they’re gone?

KS
In that case they explode, break down into lots of little electrons, lots of ions, that's what the flash of light is, that's the ionic spectrum of the explosion, and… pfft, no more

Nancy
So John, what do you think about this whole thing and how it relates to the Hutchison Effect?

John Hutchison
I think, I kind of erm, Kevin’s a scientist, I’m not a scientist, you see, Ken studied some of the earlier work… and erm, I’ve seen in some microphotographs, some, similar kinds of things.

Nancy
So you think that from your analysis of Johns metal samples, that he had these exotic EVOs operating inside those transmutated metals?

KS
I’ll back up a little further.. Yes I do think they are a major cause of everything he has done, propulsion, transmutation - you name it - they stem from this effect. Now, I strictly shied away from using large machines as John makes and uses. Tesla like coil like things, erm, because I couldn’t figure out what was going on with the base process. There is a big gap in my ability to go from where John’s machine is, to the base knowledge that I have now, so I had to use different techniques and that made us draw apart. If I had the guts enough, I might have jumped on a John-like machine, home made or otherwise - kept modifying it and kept modifying it until I got a better understanding of what was going on - but instead of doing that I just skipped right on into the basic stuff, from where I discovered it. And, erm, started building up - using what you might call the bottom up technique and he was working with the top down method and I had, just due to my background - I had no ability to do that, I didn’t feel like I had - so I built up from the bottom.

It puts me in a class of screw-ball scientists - If I had done it - erm - from the top down I’d be called a garage crank or something like that…

Nancy
Now you’re just a screwball

KS
Just a screwball now.

Nancy [to John]
Would you prefer to be a Crank or a Screwball?

John Hutchison
I don’t care what they call me, I kinda, I love the history of the Tesla tech - and other technologies, just to replicate it - to do and to play with it and I guess, just half way and bizarro came in and pushed me

KS
And misdirected everything

Nancy
Ok, so you gave an opinion, ‘misdirected everything’. Tell me why you think it was misdirected.

KS
It was not malicious, it was done to conform with both their own experimental method and their own techniques that they understood and to conform with the direction, either spoken or not, of the sponsor.

Nancy
And who was the sponsor?

KS
Hans-Adam [II Prince of Liechtenstein]

Nancy
So Hans-Adam wanted something out of the John Hutchison experience?

KS
Well he wanted to fertilize and feed several things that would become the defining devices or engines for the UFOs. He was really after what is a UFO engine really like? Where do they get their propulsion from? Or as he would have said ‘their anti gravity technique’ - I would not say that, I would just say propulsion - but that wasn’t, maybe it wasn't stated overtly, but it certainly communicates easily to people like [Harold] Puthoff and Hathaway, ‘cause it's the standard method, so it's propagated into John's bedroom and without a word you are now doing things the standard way by decree and you don't get told what to do exactly, maybe, but you get leaned on, so gently, that finally your off-course - you will do it to yourself - I would do it to myself, whenever I work for anybody else, I try to sense ‘what are their needs’ and er conform.. to some degree - only keeping a portion for yourself - as yourself - but er, … this conformation… is er, deadly

Nancy
What conformation?

KS
The conforming … conformation, it is a killer in terms of new science. Because nobody wants to take a risk. They get into their monetary, their business world, they manage risks like crazy. When you’re in this world, you’re bare naked, and it’s far better to take a risk, you know, take a big risk, all that you can afford and er, that will get you somewhere or nowhere - you go back to zero. See John there, had been taking a big risk when you get right down to it, he’s hung out in lots of different ways, as I have and am, I take risks like crazy. I, erm, have to start out [with] an attitude if you will, of er, if you’re a banker - you’ve gotta be the devil himself, you know, if you’re associated with a business - your wrong to start with, what are you fooling with me for, you know, I don’t make businesses - but I do.

I’m the creative that businesses spring from, you can say, or be pretty sure to say, that almost all microelectronics that we see, I was the father of - and I have been granted that - I am the father of vacuum, nanoelectronics - there is a big plaque somewhere that er, an award with my name on it and all that nano-stuff, but, it’s past history.

I took a risk, instead of milking that field which I could have, ooo could I, I could still do it, I say no, I will be better off, and the world will be better off, if I operate independently. So, goodbye schools, goodbye companies, goodbye everybody and the fact is, you were about to ask me ‘who would I look up to’?

Nancy
Actually I asked that about two hours ago.

All laugh

KS
I don’t forget that, but you didn’t get an answer because there isn’t one really.

I used to associate with some good old fellas, I was always the kid or the baby and these guys were great. But now, when I go through and look at what they really did, it wasn’t that great - but, that was the system they were in - and they were in the academic system, obviously, so they were just being, academic.

Nancy
Who has been a non-academic that, you’ve felt has, erm,

KS
Well, I don’t mind pouring through that as a question - I will just go ahead and play bumper ball - you know, ricochet off first one wall and then another trying to find an answer to that. I’ll start with a few nots.

I can take the top list of everybody that I know of in cold fusion… where it’s at… that is supposed to be a forward moving field… it’s dead… dead in the water… they really are bad… if I took a list of the top guys in that business, or ex-business - I can name guys like Storms, McKubre, erm, Miley - now all those and everybody of their ilk - that I know well - that I have associated with closely - and when I look at what they do - I have very little admiration for it - I guess I put Storms at the top of the list of the - those that seemingly survived all the pitfalls and perils of being at a high echelon in the field - and that’s about it on that bunch…

… er, base physics, I don’t talk to those people anymore - so I don’t know who they are. I know of several gorgeous errors that are propagating now.

Nancy
What errors are those?

KS
Sono-fusion, sono-anything that they do, their belief in the fact that ultrasonics, that you get these little bubbles, and when they break, they emit light and they do all these wonderful little things - it’s nothing but an EVO generator - that’s all they got. They have a charge separation process to form the bubble, it would bang, and when it went bang, of course it raised all hell that these little things raise. That’s got nothing new, nothing novel, but they couched all the results, in such a way that they fit the academic world and they publish this and they publish that and they publish the other thing - all wrong.

The same kind of thing happened down at the very respectable, erm, what do they call, well, in San Diego, they’re the SPAWAR group, very scientific bunch, doing cold fusion like work, attributing almost everything to neutron emissions and they don’t know how in the heck to measure neutrons - they have EVOs - that’s what they’ve got.

Nancy
So they’ve got EVOs and they don’t know they’ve got EVOs?

KS
They won’t admit they’ve got them. Now guys like McKubre stand on the side with a stick poking them up saying, ‘hey you guys, those are probably not neutrons you ought to quit publishing that they are, you’re killing your reputation, think about this’. Well, they don’t - they can’t, they’re involved in the system, the system says ‘you said this is what it was, that’s a vector that points in that direction and you don’t dare change the direction or you’re dead.’ And that’s true - they can’t unpublish the results they’ve published already, in any reasonable way.

Nancy
Would you talk about publishing because, now that you are on the frontier.

KS
Those people that are in Cold Fusion, demand it, it corresponds to the academic method, which requires it be published.

Nancy
But you, you’re publishing, right?

KS
No, well I wouldn’t consider that publishing, it won’t get published in the standard journals - in the so called peer-reviewed journals

Nancy
It’s a posting

KS
Yes, it’s a posting - but you tell me where ah, I can find a peer - that’s what you’re asking for - who is my peer or who do I consider to be my peers, who could critique what I am doing - well there are some people that can - but they maybe even shouldn’t because it is BAD FOR YOUR REPUTATION and it’s er, not rewarding - you can’t get a job in the field because there’s no field and you know, nothing good about it.

Nancy
I wasn’t asking who your peers were so much as, if you would parallel another person in history to your work as far as your thought processes, who would you parallel…

KS
I’m trying to dig into that, I’m having such a poor time of it. I’ll have to quote somebody else - Rutherford is a scientist, an English scientist.

Nancy
So these, um, EVOs are circulating toroids

KS
He says, no, but maybe you have to get used to people miss-quoting you by miles

John Hutchison
Oh, I know that, yah

KS
yah

Nancy
You think they’re quantum-mechanical black holes/white holes?

KS
Quantum mechanical is a buzzword, if you’re gonna write something, you gotta put a buzzword in it, so that was his...

Claire
I don’t think you have to understand what it is.

Nancy
Do you think they are black holes/white holes?

KS
They are black holes, in one of my notes [I say] that they contain all the characteristics of black holes, they swallow material and make it go away - that’s what they do.

Claire
Astro-physics talks about black holes.

KS
Big black holes usually, but this is lots of little ones and I’d say, same thing - all the way down.

Nancy
It goes in, and where does it go out?

KS
It goes into the hole and then it goes out of the hole - haha.

Nancy
But where does it go out.

KS
It goes into another universe - there’s another writing on that subject. Now that’s where you get spooky - I don’t believe in other universes - but, damned if I don’t believe I see them go away, so they left where I am, and they went somewhere else, so I gotta assign that a place.

Nancy
You just don’t have the vision to see it?

KS
I can bring them back, as long as they don’t go too far - if I take them down too far, they’re gone.

Nancy
I think we’re just not perceiving it, I think that we’re, what John and I talk about this alot is that, erm, there’s one universe, we’re just seeing a sliver of it - it’s still in the same…

KS
Oh, oh, ok with that, we are able to move these things in and out of our sliver. Haha. It’s called the multi-universe theorem. so.

Nancy
Of course humans are quite limited.

KS
Oh my God, we are trapped in this tiny little sliver.

John Hutchison
Oh yeh

Nancy
I was into a lot of outer body stuff.

KS
Well these things allow you to move out of this whole universe body stuff. Haha - so, they are manipulatable on an atomic scale at this point - no gross stuff, none of my stuff disappears. But that guy said, [so this is like relative?] so ok.

Nancy
Well now that’s someone else, I am not asking for somebody else's opinion, I’m asking for your opinion.

KS
Well, then, you’re gonna have to dig some more then deary! Haha. I don’t know any or I would have said it. I’m not holding anything back. Now I can say a few things I think are not true, maybe make them true, I don’t see a comparison to Tesla - why do I say that, because I don’t know anything factual about Tesla - or even about a lot of these crazy things people say he did. Show me, because I only accept what I can do and I haven’t done Tesla things, so I can’t validate what he did. It’s a terrible situation to not know a parallel, I would like to know one, I would like to know somebody, but, you know.

Nancy
Van Gogh?

KS
OK, I can’t make them statements, I don’t know

Claire
No, he was touched on different

Nancy
Well, they say he was, erm, schizophrenic, and that’s why he saw, he was able to see the different colours, I’m just saying that, Ken sees the different colours.

KS
Oh, I see it an entirely different way to other people. I had to, to keep it, as a job to do, I have things I must not do

Nancy
Why?

KS
It will wreck the technique that I use - boy, do I adhere to a methodology, you bet ya, am I afraid of certain things, paralysed

Nancy
Paralysed?

KS
Yah

Nancy
Why?

KS
It will wreck my technique. Haha

Nancy
No, he’s got a box.

KS
No, these are guidelines, they’re rails I can hold on to when I’m out in the jungle, it’s an awful place to be if you’re not, uh, protected or given the guidelines.

Nancy
What if your guidelines are wrong Ken?

KS
Then I take another guideline, you think I’m gonna ride this one into the rails, haha. No it is very clear to me that I’ve got techniques that work. I keep them honed, I keep them sharp - I do lots of things to keep that going, and I believe, very much in subconscious, subliminal er, thinking if you will.

Nancy
Yeh

KS
I go to bed with a problem, I wake up with a solution

Nancy
Do you work on your third eye?

KS
Screw the third eye, I wouldn’t trust it, it’s only an eye - I work off everything I’ve got and I

Nancy
.. us to trance?

KS
Yeh well, I find that really a lot of things that people have said from eastern religion is true. I can stay on the edge of the region between sleep and awakeness and do the best job I can do. That’s when it really gets me some mileage. But the trouble is, if you lose your training a little bit, you go to sleep too much - and if you stay fully conscious, you are not going to get anywhere. I get up 5 times a night and it is largely because I like breaking the sleep routine - because every time I get to that boundary, I get a little bit and I hang on to it and I keep on moving that way. I like this form of subliminal thinking - it is stupid, because I don’t think until I’m back awake and then it is not thinking too much, it is kind of like just jotting down what you just heard.

John Hutchison
How long does the after come when you wake up

KS
Until I cool down, I can almost, I can measure it as a temperature, I go back to bed, I feel a little bit hot.

John Hutchison
Ok

KS
And after a little bit, I get cool, and sleep right after that - or back into that thing, but I’ve got to work quick in that, that narrow zone and, this chair [pointing to the chair he is sitting in] gives me more time, than a bed does, it’s less comfortable I think or something like that - but I can keep a certain position in the chair, think about a particular problem and for a moment, I can do some good with it, and its either ‘click’ [or] back up awake.

Claire
And I remember when Ken came back with one of your samples and was really puzzled.

KS
It didn’t work that way Claire, the sample was mailed.

John Hutchison
We were mailing it I think

Claire
Well, whatever, he was really puzzled, I remember, it was a piece of metal, and er

KS
And I saw stuff on it, yeah, I had to discharge all that work, because I, didn’t, do it. I keep my eye on these things.

Claire
But what really puzzled you was to how it, you couldn’t figure out

KS
I couldn’t explain the key part, I could explain, erm, the marks on the outside, but I couldn’t explain [the] stuff that I found, myself, inside.

Claire
Now you think you can?

KS
Sure, yeah, easy. These things penetrate metal like crazy, another paper on the list.

Nancy
It’s penetrating the metal and mutating it?

KS
It [EVOs] penetrates metal, it gets nasty mad at some point maybe, at which point it explodes, it dishevels I should say, it may also create a very high pressure, but it certainly dishevels and parts come out in various ways… some are highly altered and transmutations and some you can say, well, were not altered at all - but you don’t know whether it was altered into something else and then re-transmuted back - it’s real hard to tell - cause the efficiency of the transmutation is very high and so when you start running some experiments which are on the list, on the net, of these things and a little transmutation vial that I purposely don’t let any new material in - it’s all solids and it’s all pure and it’s doing a mass analysis - a mass spectrometry analysis, about every 5 seconds you pusshhhh, run it, look at it, pusshhhh and look at again and well, the first burst which lasts seconds you, you see a few characteristic lines that are exactly equal to the powders or the material that you put in and you think well that’s good, but then there is little strange lines beginning to show up… hit it again… more strange lines… hit it again… more strange lines… yet pretty soon you have transmuted a transmuted a transmuted product and pretty soon the whole base line of the spectrometer run is filled with … stuff whereas before there had only been a few primary items put in there. The transmutation is very obvious in that sort of thing - and you can’t blame it on external contamination… there is just no way… you can’t blame it on so many things you usually do say is the cause… but er… just transmutation…

John Hutchison
I like the erm, thing where they were in your home talking about the explosives you dropped on the ground - oh, we shouldn’t talk about that, right

Nancy
Well, you, John loves explosives

John Hutchison
Oh, never mind - er, potassium permanganate I thought, adventures, er - I might have had some time ago - but

KS
Potassium permanganate makes all sorts of friends.

Nancy
Well let’s talk about your history between you guys…

Claire
John, why did you want to come here and see Ken?

All - Incidental

John Hutchison
I always liked talking to Ken

All - Incidental

Nancy
So John, what has always fascinated you about Ken? Was it his stunning good looks?

John Hutchison
I like the wake Ken is honest, I like the way he talks and I like his friendship and I like his science… so…

I know when he is um, he speaks of these things, I kind of understand that it is a very sensitive area and

KS
There are few people, VERY FEW people that interface with the things that we play with, it’s real hard to get a conversation going in an average group…

Nancy
So you and John can have conversations

KS
We are are better off, better arranged at that than not… so you know, you go into a bar - don’t expect to get an audience… it takes the bull out of us I’m pretty sure - oh, he can get an audience out of his stage life - but, I got no stage life

John Hutchison
Yeh, he has no stage life stuff, so, my stage stuff, I’d probably get an audience, so, I just erm, I kind of deal with what Ken is saying, and I can tune into it an I respect it, you know

KS
In this business of ‘who to talk to’ you have to ask yourself, very selfishly, ‘what am I going to get out of this?’, you know, and there is not much you can expect

Nancy
What do you want to get out of it?

KS
Help

Nancy
For what?

KS
Move the field, my next step … I need a bike - give me a boost…

Nancy
What do you need for a boost? You don’t need corporate America, bankers or

KS
I can’t afford it

Nancy
You can’t afford it, so what do you need to get to the next step?

KS
Well, actual physical motion and experimentation is what you need. The question is really poised around, what person can do what, to help you get there. And I guess I am finding, more and more, there aren’t any - you get there by yourself or you don’t get there.

John Hutchison
I agree with that too

KS
I hate that, in some ways, because it’s so counter social, it is absolutely criminal talk on the most [part]

Nancy
What about, I mean, it goes against, so much of synergies of bringing two energies of people together to create a third energy, a third force. You know if you are all by yourself, all you have is yourself.

KS
Well that’s not a singularity necessarily. Yourself.

Nancy
As long as you’ve got multiple personalities, you’re fine

KS
Oh there are plenty of personalities to deal with, if not personalities, er, effects, things that can be used.

Nancy
But what good is it, if it's only something that you worked on and you want to advance this, for what reason do you want to advance it

KS
That's a question, that I've many many years on the wrong side of and I'll try, If only for the purposes of straightening it out. I used to hate to say, ‘I am for advancing for social benefit’ for the good of mankind.

Nancy
Who you can't talk to about this

KS
I can't talk to you, but I have have to advance them, or I don't have any goal to reach. I have to include mankind as my beneficiary, that's all there is. I can impart a certain amount, a small amount to my family, but it is very small.

John Hutchison
I was basically all alone in this stuff and I found it fun to play with it. After the, erm, this general major interest, these scientists came along and wanted to promote it to er,

KS
Well, it's another stage, is the way I look at it, of awareness. Like, in the very first stage, it is done for yourself, but after a while, you begin to look around and say, oh there must be more to it than that.

Nancy
What if that's all it is, what if it's just fun for Ken

KS
I have a certain economic necessity that’s called .. it’s not to make money, it’s the economics of life. It’s the distribution of energies of things. And er, I don’t allow play, I say - of course I do… but I don’t want to admit it. WE DON’T PLAY - WE’RE WORKING! - so it has to be cemented in that way, or otherwise, you are just liable to just stop and play and how can you measure that? I'm not getting anywhere in the main thing I was trying to do.

Nancy
Well you sound like you're stuck in a box Ken, if you can't play.

KS
Hell, we are in a box, we are in a box biologically, we can only take certain temperature extremes, we can only take so many G's or less. We are in a box, it's just a question of shape. Now I like my box to have tendrils that reach way out into time, somewhere else and pull back great mysteries - look them over, solve them, put them God knows where sometimes.

Nancy
Sounds like great play

KS
Well I do real good at that, I'm one hell of a good frontier play-boy. haha

John Hutchison
Ok, so that's the frontier

KS
But, er, I don’t admit the play part - it is the wrong word, it may be something else has to be in there. There has to be a reward somehow wrapped up with the play.

Nancy
Why?

KS
Well you wouldn't play if there wasn't some reward in it you know it’s, it’s gotta work that way…

Nancy
Why?

Ken
What’s this why stuff, I can’t say why… “mummy, why?” haha

Nancy
It’s this, the duality of you is fascinating Ken because, you work on this frontier scientific and you can't have any of the other scientists who are in their boxes understand you and then

KS
Well, they shouldn’t

Nancy
But then I ask you, why do you put yourself in these boxes of plays and reward…?

KS
Well I have no choice

Nancy
Of course there is! You see you're doing the same thing.

KS
Well look, if I really let myself loose totally - I would probably start looking into well how DOES this stuff couple into religion - I see a little hook there, and how DOES this stuff couple into er, bio excretia or whatever - you know there are a lot of biological things going on, that I see some overlaps here

Nancy
Yeah

KS
One of those papers is written up in such a way.

Nancy
And you can't risk doing that Ken, because it might blow out your box

KS
No it doesn't, it raises hell with efficiency, I can kind of imagine where I ought to be and, if I don't do this, that and the other, at a certain rate or pace, I won't get there.

Nancy
Well now there's another restriction you've put on yourself. If you play…

KS
I'm not for taking all the restrictions off, I’ve got to restrict the hell out of myself or I scatter. I know what diffusion looks like, I hate it, instead of going in all directions you could have, kind of, refocused it a little better and got some more leverage out of it.

Nancy
Well if you had diffused, you might have gone round the other side and saw the backside of it

KS
Remember diffusion kind of wanders around in strange ways. You're not going to get to the back side by the diffusion.

Nancy
Sure you can

KS
Well if you took your things over there to work with when you are diffused. I’d rather marshall all these little things, and aim them, strike home, that's it. It’s all about getting power enough, to get to, the next step and to do that you don't diffuse, you focus and that's a box and you call it a box, it’s a box. I just want it to be a good box, that I can stand on to get to the next step.

Nancy
So how much have you is German, what percentage of you, is German heritage?

KS
I can't find any, although some of the names are similar, Schuler and er...

Nancy
Well, this is very much a German word, the shu shu shu…

KS
Well I'm not even going to give the Germans credit for being as good as I am at this. You know, how much of German's are me, you know!

There is a way to get somewhere if you got this kind of thing as a goal. I got this kind of thing is a goal, so I can use every trick that I can, muscle, and maybe I found a lot of German parts that fell off, stick it back on.

Nancy
See I think when you're half asleep you're out playing, and you just won't admit that's your playtime.

KS
No that's my hunt time

Nancy
Of course it's play, but you're hunting and playing

KS
OK now if you're going to get it down to the hunting thing - I'm hunting like heck, search, search, search. I pick up things and I look at them, discard them maybe, if they're too heavy to carry. I don't carry a shed full of stuff like John - I'm going there with a handbag wherever I'm going.

Nancy
If you had something that you wanted to say to people, if you two guys say, left your body, permanently tonight, what would you like to be on the record - something that you said.

KS
Ah, hah, ah hah ha… don’t have to pay hahaha

Nancy
You don’t have to pay what

KS
Anything! I’ve gone!

Nancy
Ok

KS
Yeah, there's always a collector around looking for something, not an actual bill collector, a collector of some kind, somebody that wants something you've got.

Nancy
And you think that that's happening, that's the synergism that we have in the society is everybody wants something that somebody else has

KS
Yeh

John Hutchison
Well I like collecting old muskets, I think they're kind of cool things

KS
There you are, well, they were hand made probably

Nancy
What do you collect Ken

KS
Ask Claire… everything

Nancy
Do you have any heartfelt feelings towards the man sitting to your left [meaning John Hutchison]

KS
Well I wish he had taken a shower last night, haha

John Hutchison
Well I took a shower

Nancy
Well John doesn't know his left from right either

ALL - incidental camaraderie

Nancy
Just look at the man to your left and tell him what you think, what do you feel about, you know

KS
[To John] “I love you deeply”

John Hutchison
[To Ken] “I love you deeply”

All - haha

John Hutchison
Well you know I've always been fascinated by

All - Frivolity.