Do we actually need a worker proposal system? Let&#x27;s get some real examples of work proposals first.

shaka (72) · 6 years ago

My first reaction when I heard about the worker proposal was enthusiasm.

I was exactly there.

When I first read about the SPS I thought „awesome, that’s the right thing to do“ but then immediately focused on the question of how to bring in the needed funds rather than questioning its necessity as a whole.

You are raising valid points. I’m not so sure anymore about the merits of funding proposals upfront to their implementation. It may even prevent devs from first probing the market for actual demand and could thus lead to the preservation of otherwise non-viable initiatives.

Still, maybe there is a category of projects or rather jobs, like code maintenance, debugging, incremental improvements etc. for which a salary would help to speed things up to all our benefit. I need to think more about this. Thanks for triggering that!

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4 votes

exyle (79) · 6 years ago

Thanks for the cool comment. For now I personally wait and see where the funds are going to come from. If it's donations it's fine of course, if it requires a HF it has more to it.

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

I believe a worker proposal system is important for real funding (earning some upvotes here and there based on the goodwill of Steemians is not enough for professional developers & entrepreneurs) of projects that are primarily for the good of Steem and it's ecosystem and not to make money.

For example, take SteemApps.com. There is no real business model behind it, besides using ref-links, but even that is not enough to cover infrastructure & working costs. However, that was the plan from the beginning! Building a project which has the one and only task of providing value for Steem.

Well of course, I also did it to provide value as a Witness, besides securing the blockchain - but even then, it would be far more profitable to build a business such as @magicdice rather than a non-for-profit project for Steem.

However, this could change with a worker proposal system. Everything in life is about incentives. Bid-bots didn't just pop up because people weren't able to build something better, but because it was the profitable low-hanging fruit. And I believe the same will happen now with gambling on Steem - I've just seen 2 or 3 new gambling applications popping up this week.

But let's be honest:

Do we want more gambling?
Or do we want more projects bringing actual value to Steem?

If the answer is the 2nd one, then I do believe a good way to boost that kind of economy is via a proposal system.

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exyle (79) · 6 years ago

Its undeniable that steemapps.com has brought value to Steem.

I'm assuming that you build it because you love Steem and want to add value to it but surely also because you thought it could help you get you into the top 20 (incentive). A place you 100% deserve btw in my opinion.

Let's say this WP was in place, would you put future updates up there? Would you besides the witness pay ask for funds from the WP pool too? Would you be able to do more than you are doing now? Can you give an example of a WP you would put up there that is not possible for you to create now?

Magic dice is doing well right now because STEEM is cheap. When STEEM goes up people will lower the bets but your witness will still make 100k STEEM a year.

Also Magic Dice will have competition soon like you said. 10x more gambling apps won't mean 10x more profits for those apps. It will just dilute the gamblers and profits will go down.

Of course Bid-bots are the low hanging fruit. But the first person that puts in the work and finds the way to generate more ROI for passive investors than bid-bots will get all the delegation that are now going to bit bots. That's an incentive in itself.

Talking about incentives? Why did people make Dtube, Partiko, Steemhunt and all the other DApps. All without this WP incentive.

Everyone is talking about how much more projects that will bring actual value will be build for Steem with this WPS, yet none has been able to give a good example yet of something that isn't done today.

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therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

Talking about incentives? Why did people make Dtube, Partiko, Steemhunt and all the other DApps. All without this WP incentive.

Because those projects all have business models behind it. All of those you've mentioned are earning benefactor & curation rewards and are self-sustaining.

However, sites like steemblockexplorer.com, steemworld.org, steemd.com, steemnow.com and projects like dsteem, beempy & co. all have no revenue model. They are simply there to bring value to Steem and its users.

Everyone is talking about how much more projects that will bring actual value will be build for Steem with this WPS, yet none has been able to give a good example yet of something that isn't done today.

I'm very certain that with a good Working Proposal System implementation, we can incentivize people to create more projects like the ones I've mentioned above.

If we have a baseline coverage via the reward-pool and the rest is being added by donations, then that's great. But I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the inflation of STEEM for funding of projects that are going to be valuable for Steem and that are not focusing on making money.

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exyle (79) · 6 years ago

But I honestly don't see a reason why we shouldn't use the inflation of STEEM for funding of projects that are going to be valuable for Steem and that are not focusing on making money.

Because you will need to fund these projects indefinitely if they can't stand on their own feet at some point. And with even more projects wanting a piece of the WP pie you will run out of funds fast.

Personally, I was so happy that there finally was starting to be this realisation on the blockchain that the reward pool is not a business model and that projects need to look for outside funding to be sustainable.

Delegation is a good incubator model but the goal should always be that projects stand on their own feet.

Also, you have not provided any examples of proposals we can look forward too when this system is in place. "I'm very certain that..." is just not good enough.

Sorry for being so harsh about it. But this thing will effect everyone on this platform when this HF get's a pass. I for one want to be sure that when it does it's for the right reasons.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

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2 votes

therealwolf (75) · 6 years ago (edited)

I'm with you that businesses should look outside the reward pool for monetization, but I'm not talking about businesses. I'm talking about projects for Steem.

And the examples I've mentioned (steemblockexplorer, steemd, steemworld, dsteem, beempy, etc.) are very clearly projects without any business model. (not every project should have the goal to make money - but that doesn't mean the developer(s) aren't needing money to develop it)

For example, steemworld.org recently introduced donations and while a bit came in (~400-500 STEEM) I wouldn't say that's very much, comparing to 1+ year of development.

Also, you have not provided any examples of proposals we can look forward too when this system is in place. "I'm very certain that..." is just not good enough.

I'm not yet sure how it will look like in action as the current sketch is very rough, so I don't feel comfortable to make an example proposal.

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hans001 (57) · 6 years ago

I don't care about gambling you can say everything about magic dice but I give you an example if you set it to 95 out of 100 you bet with 10 steem and the dice rolls 5 times in a row above 95 it is manipulation. Never ever wil that happen without sorry to say that. Search my transactions for proof. I thought also well let's make a buck at those points you get and if I lost twice every 10 rolls I hadn't said anything about it but 5 in a row that's why I stopped it normally I never gamble never ever bin in a casino. But buy a lottery ticket monthly that's enough. I don't want steem back I did the action myself knowing that the system always wins, but like this?

Further to be honest they want what? Pull down the earnings of posters more? For what? For a task system? Exyle is right on this point. Why do we need this system? I don't think we need this system. And I really don't think we need to shrink the reward pool more. Also this system is not good because it isn't balanced there will be power votes. So it isn't honest. But that's my humble opinion. 😊

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soyrosa (74) · 6 years ago

Thank you! I feel like so far the opinions lean to 'we like it!', so I need this post to see the other side as well. Did you weigh in on the discussions on the latest @blocktrades post already? I believe within only a few hours they will put up a vote for the community, might be important to show some of your perspective as well before that happens. Cheers!

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2 votes

exyle (79) · 6 years ago (edited)

Nobody is asking there wether we need this. Just where the money is going to come from. Donations or reward pool.

The deal itself is between @blocktrades and Steemit inc. They can build whatever they want and they should have this freedom.

If the funding for this WPS comes from donations it's fine with me. Then it's just another project on the blockchain.

If it requires a hard fork then it's a whole other matter.

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soyrosa (74) · 6 years ago

Yes, the discussion is only about where the money comes from, but if people see your side of it (I mean your doubts if this whole system is needed) they might be less inclined to take a permanent cut of the reward pool.

I'd personally also love to see what proposals people might send in and what arguments they have for needing a fund for their specific proposal.

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9 votes

johnhtims (54) · 6 years ago

I think the reason we get so many "we like it" is because steemit doesn't have a secret ballot polling system. This makes getting genuine opinions extremely hard.

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johnhtims (54) · 6 years ago

Also the polls can easily be gamed by voting bots. I don't take steem polls seriously at all.

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pouchon (70) · 6 years ago

After reading your post one steemian came to mind quick
Jerrybanfield.
He was pushing for proposals in dash and came over to steem and try to do the same thing for promotion.
I am happy and a little bit shock that you lay your point across.
You touched all bases for steemians and witnesses.
WP sounds good but it will sound better with donations or just straight delegations.
Self interest is the elephant in the room and we may not see it coming over to damage everything.
Keep on postin

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5 votes

bozz (70) · 6 years ago

It sounds like Steemitinc might be pushing this because it gives them some more transparency about how they delegate their funds. I could be totally wrong though. It's possible they only want to give to projects that get the majority of approval from the community though. That could be seen as an olive branch vs. the past where things were a lot more arbitrary. Who knows though. Great post with some good questions and some great explanation.

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tipu (67) · 6 years ago

Hi @bozz! I`m here to help :) If you want to delegate, please make a comment (for example replay to this one) like this:
I want to delegate X sp to @user
Where X is the amount of SP and @user is the steem user you want to delegate to. For example:
I want to delegate 100 sp to @exyle
@tipU will answer with a delegation link. Hope this helps!:)

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stackin (78) · 6 years ago

In my opinion, developers will always take advantage of any money given to them 🤷🏼‍♂️

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exyle (79) · 6 years ago

lol, not only developers :)

abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Worth asking the question :)

Would one example be steemchiller's steemworld? It's clear that a lot of people use the site daily, and at present he is supported by author rewards (and recently a donations button but I've not checked to see how utilized that is). If he could secure a daily/weekly payment for his development work, he wouldn't need to produce a weekly update (more in the pool), and could relax a little knowing that he was covered for x amount of time. There are likely existing projects and ones gone by that use/d the Author share to fund development, the WP in effect replacing this somewhat.

I am for the idea, and do see the majority/all coming from the Author share, but I do think a fraction from the Witness share to show willing is worth exploring too.

exyle (79) · 6 years ago (edited)

What would be the end goal of Steemworld? Endless funding from the WPS for development or should it become a sustainable business at some point that can run by itself?

What would the proposal be? What would it look like? And at some point the project is finished and then what? What happens when the funding stops? Also if he is secured of funds for X amount of time will he work harder or slower to make it a sustainable business.

What do you think?

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2 votes

abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago (edited)

Maybe only receive funding when there is work to be done - like the addition of claiming/creating accounts after the latest fork?

What would the proposal be? What would it look like?

I think this could be answered by BT, or someone with knowledge of the BitShare's network where WPs have been in place for a while.

And at some point the project is finished and then what? What happens when the funding stops?

I guess, no more new features until there is a good enough proposal/set of features to add that are voted in to receive funding.

Also if he is secured of funds for X amount of time will he work harder or slower to make it a sustainable business.

Businesses hate paying for 'keeping the lights on', yet these tasks are critical in places :) I would suggest for a website, that isn't critical to the chain (but is a solid nice to have), that this wouldn't be a valid 'paid for x amount of time' deal, and more a 'this is what I want to add' sort of thing.

Maybe steemcleaners is a better example of constant funding for a no end in sight project? They take a good deal of Author rewards to fund, which to some might look better coming from a WP pool. e.g. Is the 1.5 million delegation that amount to ensure they have enough to combat abuse, or enough to ensure they can pay themselves enough, or both? With WP, there could be a line drawn - SP for abuse, WP funding for work?

Tough questions man, I'm feeling the heat :)

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5 votes

exyle (79) · 6 years ago

I don't get it.

First you say:

If he could secure a daily/weekly payment for his development work, he wouldn't need to produce a weekly update (more in the pool)

And then you say:

I would suggest for a website, that isn't critical to the chain (but is a solid nice to have), that this wouldn't be a valid paid for x amount of time deal, and more a 'this is what I want to add' sort of thing.

To me, he seems to be doing all the work that needs to be done now without a worker proposal funding and even better he secured his own funding by finding users that want to support him.

Even better would be a revenue model outside of the reward pool which should be the aim of most apps imho.

Wether Steem cleaners take money directly from the author rewards or we first cut the author pool altogether and then put it into a WPS pool and then give it to them.

I don't see the difference.

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Maybe my thinking changed as I was working through my example :)

I think WP work is paid hourly, with a known lump sum split across this time and so there would be a fixed end point to the received funds. If this is true (would need to listen to BT recording again) then it would be a case of offering up the list of features (work to be done) prior to receiving funding.

To me, he seems to be doing all the work that needs to be done now without a worker proposal funding ....

Yes I agree, but love doesn't buy food

... and even better he secured his own funding by finding users that want to support him. Even better would be a revenue model outside of the reward pool which should be the aim of most apps imho

This is the goal for sure. So should WP's be seen as 'kickstarter' funds?

Wether Steemcleaners take money directly from the author rewards or we first cut the author pool altogether and then put it into a WPS pool and then give it to them.

Right now they have one pot, the delegation. Some is used to curb abuse, some is used to self-vote - they decide. What if there was no abuse for a week, would you be happy with all the SP going to 'salary'?

With WP, the salary is separated from the SP allocated for abuse. This sounds more transparent and fair to me.

Just thinking out loud, I don't have the answers :)

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mattclarke (68) · 6 years ago

I don't like the idea; but then I have zero experience in software development.
In a way this whole thing is a good demonstration of the DPOS concept. I don't know what's the best way forward, and I don't have to; I just have to vote for witnesses I trust to make that call on my behalf. #WWYD (what would Yaba do?)

marki99 (54) · 6 years ago

Prople constantly ask steemit, inc what can they do to help. Well this will provide everyone with some work

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meesterboom (78) · 6 years ago

I'm with you, I am not sold on the idea one little bit

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Maybe if you were presented with a chart?

Notice the relative pause while WPs are developed and then a surge on release!

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3 votes

meesterboom (78) · 6 years ago

Hahaha! Oh that's smashing!

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Arguably more insightful than the comments to exyle in another thread :D

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meesterboom (78) · 6 years ago

Lol, I was just reading them. I was typing out a lengthy reply to join in and just managed to get a hold of myself and give myself a shake and deleted it. Phew!

abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

haha! Brilliant.

Mark has his typing boots on today, clearly influenced by my nonsensical replies.

I'd like to think we are just 'fleshing things out', and that he doesn't wan't to ditch the Gentle Giant costume for a more assertive looking, 'You are talking shit and I'm going to curb-stomp you' attire.

🙏

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3 votes

meesterboom (78) · 6 years ago

Haha, I think your safe. For now... ;0)

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dreamryder007 (67) · 6 years ago (edited)

It sounds like Ned already paid for it. As far as the funding goes I think a donation from Steemit Inc. + declined payments would be enough. I personally am very skeptical due to voting (some people have huge single accounts and some have thousands of accounts) and have very low expectations that this will add "much value" to the system.

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doctorcrypto (59) · 6 years ago

I don't know enough about the goings on....
So I appreciate you putting it in layman's terms.

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gadrian (66) · 6 years ago

Great point, maybe before paying for a development that requires HF, we should explore to see if Top 20 witnesses are onboard or not. Wouldn't it be funny if it was paid and developed and the witnesses would say no to the HF?

_{Posted using Steeve, an AI-powered Steem interface}

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johnhtims (54) · 6 years ago

I'm not enthusiastic about it either. I like the free market to decide which projects survive or not. Usually it's delegations from steemit inc, this though pretty much takes it from the entire steem ecosystem. Minnow, dolphin, whale... whether they like it or not.

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newageinv (70) · 6 years ago

I tend to support it as it could ensure the long term sustainability of the code in case Steemit Inc cannot or decides to nor longer support it for whatever reason. The ability to build a fund to serve for the benefit of the protocol could be a positive in the future as it becomes more decentralized.

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cmplxty (62) · 6 years ago

I think that taking it from the reward pool further alienates people who don’t have good stake on here. Those with less than say 3k SP and even higher than that, get hurt more than the huge accounts do. We want to get more stake more than others do because we want a good account value.
This new proposed system could be good but don’t screw the already strained lower accounts. Everyone says that we need to boost new people but this would do the opposite in combination with the RC restraints from HF20 in my opinion. How do new people get more RC? More stake.

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partiko (66) · 6 years ago

Thank you so much for participating in the Partiko Delegation Plan Round 1! We really appreciate your support! As part of the delegation benefits, we just gave you a 3.00% upvote! Together, let’s change the world!

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jonmaim (63) · 6 years ago

Great analysis.

I don't see the blockchain without a mechanism to reward chores and other maintenance tasks though.

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abh12345 (76) · 6 years ago

Almost seems like an oversight that a pot for development/maintenance/marketing wasn't included from the start? Even if it wasn't tapped into for a year or two.

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pennsif (79) · 6 years ago

This post has been included in the latest edition of SoS Daily News - a digest of all you need to know about the State of Steem.

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bil.prag (68) · 6 years ago

the thing is that 37 "people" will be able to decide a vote for every proposal. so "people" with most power to distribute steem will get a cut from everyone so they decide who will get that cut? or did i missed something?

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