RE: People ignore the flagging proglem... until you show them how 'great' it is by flagging them... LOL

You are viewing a single comment's thread from:

People ignore the flagging proglem... until you show them how 'great' it is by flagging them... LOL

in flagging •  8 years ago 

Downvotes, not flags.

Steem is set up to allow anyone with STEEM Power to influence a pending payout. Pending payout amounts are not cumulative and can fluctuate until the time of the actual payout.

Complaining is one thing, proposing a solution to a perceived problem is more productive though. Do you have some idea of what a solution to your downvote complaints would look like?

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

The fact that most users interact with the SteemIt UI seems to escape... ;) I don't disagree, but trying to rename something when the UI looks like this...

  ·  8 years ago Reveal Comment

Reducing concentration of upvotes/flagging power... That's the solution.

Exactly!

I've received downvotes I've disagree with in the past but not on the scale @krnel has. The most interesting thing I've read on the subject is this post which was resteemed by @dantheman.

https://steemit.com/steem/@bitcoindoom/why-down-votes-and-flags-are-an-unavoidable-consequence-of-game-theory

Those who have more risk more. When large stake holders downvote their downvote are remarked and make huge waves in the community even when nobody dares to address them. Those downvoters risk losing support if the community doesn't agree with their downvotes. This is all detailed in the post. I don't know if downvotes are truly a necessity. It's something to keep in mind though.

Excerpt

One More Thing: What about Power Imbalance?

Some people have pistols while others have nukes. The short answer is that those with nukes fear being nuked by others with nukes as well as an uprising of the masses. Anyone who gets persecuted by a nuclear power will find sympathy from the other powers who see the entire economy suffer as a result. Those with nukes (large steem power balances) have the most to lose if social oppression kills the Steem economy.

So should we eliminate down votes? No. We need to carefully consider adding new features to further counter-balance voters who have nothing to lose. Only then will we be able to put a stop to reckless down voting by whales and other users.

  ·  8 years ago Reveal Comment

That change is welcomed but it wouldn't be enough to counteract a single flagging whale bully. Better than nothing of course, linear curve for rewards is asked since long time from what I know.

And how do you change how it works without compromising the value of SP, and therefore the market value of STEEM, on which the economics of Steem stand upon?

Allowing the community to vote against a player who is behaving badly regardless of how much SP they have is a simple solution. The votes could have different levels of consequences depending on how many people vote against them and the level of the vote. One other option that I really like is requiring them to have a certain level of reputation and posts before they have any significant power towards upvotes or downvotes. A person with a rep under 70 would not have very much influence when they flag or downvote someone. Checks and balances need to be in place so the community can help to correct those that are detrimental to the prosperity of steemit as a community and the value of the tokens.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I wrote about this, but I proposed to split the system into two distinct functions that complement each other: flagging and curating. Flagging gets unlocked at a higher reputation, >55, and curation at >30-40.

By limiting who can curate we can pretty much do away with autoflaging and autovoting and collusive voting sockpuppet accounts and counter them by flagging their content (necesary to increase them to above the threshold for curation) if they are used to abuse/game the system, for the benefit of large players especially. The flagging system as well, it could work as a way to limit people from negatively affecting reputation and visibility. Right now there is a real problem of one rogue account overloading the system by posting repeatedly insanely large posts and adding gigabytes in hours to the system ad infinity as nothing is going to stop someone from posting. This is a real problem that needs addressing now, before the community explodes and storage/bandwidth is more scarce.

If we put limits on flagging, curation and content creation we can effectively police the community, what we have right now is a joke, and it's a joke to argue that limiting those things deincentivizes SP without explaining why and how.

@Pharesim asserted repeatedly without explaining why and how it is as such, that reputation isn't consensus on the blockchain and cannot be used or should not be used to limit operations.
It most certainly is a metric that is tied to each individual account and without limits on operations and consequences for abusing/gaming the system it's absurd to address functionality or the viability of this platform.

My suggestion is to make a DV weigh 3/5th of an equal upvote and drain the equivalent of 10 similar upvotes. By stunting the curation system as such, spam and abuse can be delegated to a flagging system which has no recharge rate, and should affect reputation the same across the board regardless of reputation of the flagger or the author, or their SP. By creating tiers for people to reach in order to unlock curation and flagging and maintain a relative level above which they can create content and even send memos to wallets, we can then stop spam and spam attacks, effectively deal with bad actors regardless of their vests, and even abusive flags.

https://steemit.com/community/@baah/a-solution-to-the-downvoting-flagging-problems-on-steemit

https://steemit.com/flagging/@lukestokes/hey-steemit-let-s-talk-about-flagging-again
(wrote comments there)

https://steemit.com/flag/@dwinblood/clarification-for-some-people-re-flag-vs-down-vote
(and more comments here)

The obstacle that has become more and more clear is not the much needed curve change, as that won't fix any of the problems with abusive persons and their shields of vests, but the fact that the majority of people that can deliver this solution to the developers and the developers themselves see this topic as taboo and maintain a strict "It deincentivizes SP" argument without any WHY and HOW for that assertion, those two things are poisoning the effective discussion and it's viability, and pushing this problem into the future and marginalizing it as something that's not such a big deal is delusion at it's best, especially considering that there's no discussion about how to deal with overloading the system by even just one person posting at infinity and creating spam that makes bandwidth, storage and computation redundant!

You have put quite a bit more thought into this than I have and you have some very valid points. I never really thought as much about the bandwidth and storage but see how that could be a major problem now. I think your solution makes sense and at the least the community should discuss these sort of things. I guess the other option is just wait and see if these problems continue to cause issues and the devs can just fix leaks as they go. I have a feeling it will be dealt with eventually, but at what cost?

How can they expect to reach consensus if these problems continue to grow and the disparaging lack of communication with the community on these issues continues to snowball as well. I have yet to receive a thoughtful criticism that doesn't stink of that taboo of not addressing these things will make them go away, or lose your supporters that don't ever want to rock the boat.

Why would they be dealt with down the road when it's 16kb*20 seconds=69.12 megabits in a day from one rogue account just for commenting.I don't know what the limit for images is but it seems you can upload them in ghost mode and can be vastly larger than 16kb, and by ghost mode I mean you can drag files into the comment/post and upload them without posting it, and they are on the blockchain, effectively uploaded, and there seems to be no limit to this and this vulnerability is essentially overlooked!

I can't answer you cause I am not economist nor programmer. I am a guy using websites, reading and writing. So if a whale flag a guy (manually or with bots) it's a problem, cause a single whale can compromise the all post / user. Can we agree on this?

The value of SP was huge interest (not now, only in the beginning) it's giving rewards, but I would not say it's flagging people because you don't like what they write or you take revenge for godonlyknows.

Do you have some idea of what a solution to your downvote complaints would look like?

Perhaps something like what Dan proposed, an easy way to use our steem to block the voting power of those who abuse their voting power, they have the means and knowlegde to use bots, the average user can't use bots, so it's orders of magnitute harder to repair the damage that a suposedly"bad bot" can do. We need a tool to easy counter bad actors. But wait, when Dan proposed this, "some" whales oposed it! go figure...

and btw most of downvotes/flags have nothing to do with "pending payout" in most cases this is used as an excuse, even in posts that don't have "pending payouts"

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Actually for what downvote in create? I see a lot of great whales get downvotes @pfunk

Flags are wrong. Remove it from Steemit.

  ·  8 years ago Reveal Comment


:) This is what most users see, I actually agree with you for the most part, but ignoring the UI... And demanding people call it something different doesn't change the situation.