HF19 did what many predicted it would: brought with it an increase in self voting.
It's become common for users to frequently spam rather empty comments at posts, every two minutes even, and self voting them, even to a dollar or two. It adds up to quite the rewards after a while.
Now, on one hand I'm of the opinion that you are allowed to use your stake however you see fit, and on the other hand this kind of spamming adds no value to the platform and I think it's worth frowning upon.
Recently, I flagged a user - no reason to name names, he can join in on the conversation if he wants - who has been a prominent spammer and self voter, and politely warned him that I will be flagging his spam if he keeps it up.
As expected, this was taken very personally, accompanied with a slight rage fit about how he's never done anything to me. He later deleted his comments.
This made me think about the psychology of flagging on Steemit, and made me realize that with the recent increase in new users, this is as good a time as any to have a community discussion about the subject.
Ideally, the flag, or rather the downvote, would not be anything personal; simply a distribution tool, exactly like the upvote. Some posts we feel deserve more rewards, while others deserve less.
Payouts on Steemit are subject to community approval, and the final payout is the result of a consensus.
On Steemit, users get really attached to their potential payouts, and we feel that they have deserved them, due to getting upvotes. But at the same time, the downvote is no different than an upvote, and since users can use their stake to allocate resources to a post, they should be allowed to allocate resources out of a post.
It's the same thing, just in reverse.
The definite downside of flagging is increased drama. People simply do not react well to being flagged. It leads to rant posts, flag wars, whining, all the stuff we've seen on Steemit since the beginning. And those of us that have been here longer have seen quite a lot of this stuff.
But I don't think we should avoid using what is a fundamental part of the platform in the fear of drama - and on top of that, I don't think we should tolerate the drama, period.
The whole psychology revolving the issue needs to change.
A good first step would be to make a GUI change where the flag is finally changed to a downvote. But that alone won't fix the issue.
I said at the beginning that if you have the stake, you're allowed to use it. And if you choose to use it to self upvote your spam comments, fine. But the rest of the community has stake, too, and it's their equal right to flag what they view as worthless spam on the blockchain. No reason to take it personally.
But what say you?
I'd like a community conversation about this right now. New users are increasing, and I, for one, would not like to see any more spam on the platform than there already is, and there's quite a lot of it, unfortunately.
Let's have a conversation in the comments!
There's this GitHub pull request that is on hold. https://github.com/steemit/condenser/pull/1270#pullrequestreview-34666550
I hope they haven't forgotten about it, and are working on a long term solution.
I'd love to downvote, but I don't want any drama.
As for the self-upvote, I think it's a great way to drive demand for SP. It's how in the future advertisers can bring in revenue to the platform. However, mass upvoting your own comments is abusive and difficult to police. Maybe there should a rate-limiter for self-upvotes?
PS: And yes, the lower voting power target is not working.
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I don't know the specific person / situation you mention but if they were posting a bunch of pointless comments just to upvote them, then I agree it's spammy and is generally bad behavior. I don't see self upvoting necessarily spam when it's not joined with an activity that makes it spammy like many pointless articles (I've seen it recently combined with @randowhale votes) or comments as you mention.
There is just as much potential abuse for downvotes (flagging) as there is for upvotes. I personally think flagging needs an overhaul to reduce the possibility (and reality) of abuse.
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What kind of an overhaul would you suggest? Anything in particular you have in mind?
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I'm thinking about posting an article on this topic but here's my general thoughts.
If someone has earned upvotes through their own community and not illegitimately then they should not be at the mercy of somebody else (and possibly their followers) taking away those votes/earned value.
Imagine a scenario where a community has formed on Steemit around a topic, let's say abortion. Authors that have valid opinions and have gained notoriety and value for their published thoughts should not be worried about the other side ganging up on them and devaluing their work. It is censorship plain and simple (if an article gets enough downvotes it's devalued AND hidden).
My idea would be something like.
This gives the opportunity for the community to flag an article without affecting the visibility or the value of the article. It does affect the decision for others to upvote (or not) the article because they see a flag from another member they trust.
So the flag can affect other members' decision to not upvote an article, but it cannot take away the value and votes an article has already earned.
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Also, downvotes are not only censoring the author but they are censoring others who have upvoted that author. If your downvote cancels out my upvote then you have effectively silenced my voice.
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I appreciate your comments. Would you say someone else voting against your vote in an election silenced your voice? Or is that just negation?
It's a bit of a different question, since votes are not equal on Steemit, although in reality, neither is political power.
Not entirely sure where I stand on this issue myself.
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I understand where you are coming from with the question, but it's apples to oranges. In an election, the end result is a community choosing a leader to represent them. We're not doing that here. We're not voting on articles so that they become the sole words that are to represent the entire Steemit community thoughts and values.
With my vote, I am choosing to use my own scarce resource (a portion of my voting power) to assign a valuable asset (currency) to an author I think is deserving of it. If you downvote that same article you have taken away value from the author and voting power from those who have voted. In my opinion, it should not be possible to take away something that has been earned and given legitimately. That's what downvoting does.
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It's true. If we continued the election analogy, the loser of an election doesn't end with 0 votes. They just end up with less, and in fact the margin of victory is considered relevant for determining vague things like a "mandate" for larger changes. With flagging at the current time, you don't just outvote the opponent, but subtract. The results are similar, but not the same.
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Sounds like a good start, 100% upvote :D
Followed as well...
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This post received a 1.9% upvote from @randowhale thanks to @britt.the.ish! For more information, click here!
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I just kinda got chewed out yesterday by a couple big guys yesterday for flagging someone's spam and calling them out. Was told "we don't that type of negativity"
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I can't say as I see the evidence of self voting so much as I definitely notice the ridiculous payouts that circle jerking have risen to. Even mid-level circle jerking.
Right now there are several posts in Hot that are nothing more than 4 or 5 selfies that are at almost $100 in under an hour. This may not seem like much to anyone who has been here for a while but after having spent 5 fucking hours actually researching and writing a post today (that avoided an @cheetah upvote) that's at less than $6.00 after 4 hours, it pisses me off.
And the upvotes are from the same people, who, I've also noticed very rarely upvote comments to their posts that don't come from people in the "You Upvote Me & I'll Upvote You" club.
The problem with renaming flags as simply downvotes is that I assume my downvote would subtract a whopping 0.13 from someone's shitty circle-jerked post the same as my upvote would add 0.13.
I'm not wasting my precious votes on any of these people any more. I've wondered how to trim my feed and now I have a good place to start, I'm dropping every one of the people who:
a. appear to be engaging in this kind of exclusive vote 4 vote bullshit
and/or
b. who don't upvote comments on their own posts (unless the comments come from YV4M&IV4Y club members).
It'll take a little work to figure out who they are but I think my shitty little 0.13 vote is worth the trouble.
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Still thinking about starting the @poolprotector to amass SP and prevent people from earning money from spam
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I'm ok if someone upvotes themselves in the comments if there are alot of comments and they want it to be noticed. However it has to be a genuine comment.
People that post a generic spammy 'good' post comment and then upvote themselves are clearly spamming comments for the rewards and should be downvoted, in my opinion.
Especially those that link spam AND upvot themselves.
If fact I might need to go and hit a couple now.
#follow4follow
#vote4vote
LOL
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vote4vote!!!! I upvoted this comments pl do the same. super good comment. genuine. i like it. thanmks
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As a community we need a way to stop people posting links to articles, copied work, or non-original videos for Steem. If you go to the new section for most tags there's so much bullshit(I really try to search new often), however, I don't believe someone upvoting themselves constitutes spam. It's a self promotion tool, like minnowsupport or having friends resteem you. Before we debate this though let's focus on getting rid of article linkers, plagiarism and people just posted random videos.
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The only thing on Steemit that should promote you is quality content, thats it plain and simple. Using tricks like self voting is like allowing lobbying in politics. Steemit must be organic , free market and a meritocracy or it will not work long term.
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Is self voting a trick if I like my own content? I wouldn't post something if I didn't like it.
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Objective systems like blockchain are designed to remove human weakness from decision making, you know like ego? Have you read the post where the guy showed he can double his holdings in 180 days from $83k to $166k by only self voting. Lets be serious here how can you defend that? Saying you wouldn't post something you don't like yourself is stating the obvious, not really a counter point, in a free market you can like your own product as much as you want if other people don't then you crash and burn simple.
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To get such a high doubling you'd need funds saved or to invest a large sum. Both of which we want. If you're doubling only a few dollars, who cares?
Every system out there allows the self vote and I see nothing wrong with it. It's been allowed by the devs and with two accounts or a friend one could do the same thing. All disallowing it does is help people willing to end rules. Also with a stable user base/price you won't see such doubling as Steem on the market will grow decreasing the price per Steem.
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This is a good example of the split in opinion on this platform. Because Steemit is both a creative platform and a good investment it has two clear sets of users. Ones who put alot of effort into content and creativity and ones who put alot of capital in, both who feel they deserve reward. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, personally I think its a problem that can't be resolved. The platform has already changed enormously in the past couple of months with the price of Steem rocketing, as the price of Steem has risen so the quality of content has decreased.
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This is very true. There is a lack of quality compared to similar paying content on other platforms. I think part of the problem is you need content creators who are also interested in cryptocurrency. On YouTube or Instagram my posts are worth very little, but the same post here earns me $20 - $100. I'm overpaid but compared to others here I might even be underpaid. This is a problem any platform has though. Initially the early adopters become powerful no matter how deserving.
Edit: Do you think a reinvest in myself button could solve things?
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Explain how that what would work, reinvest in myself, sounds interesting?
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I have to agree with you - my feed is filling up with video reposts from non-authors! They don't present it as original work, but I'm tired of having to un-follow potentially promising but stumbling new content creators due to feed overload. Incidentally, I wish I could filter resteems to a different tab, but C'est La Vie.
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I had two rant posts written about me after I flagged someone's plagiarism, which only happened after the user said they were going to continue to spam plagiarized content. I feel like I need a "Plagiarism Police" badge now.
In the end, we were able to convince the guy to stop copying and pasting, and he's been producing original content ever since. But the drama was real for a minute lol
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I totally agree, down vote is necessary , criticism and sometimes negative feedback is a very integral part of keeping something true to its ideals. Someone posted a video of a "hot chick getting her arsehole tattooed" I mean really? If Steemit doesn't do its bit to raise human consciousness and instead joins facebook in lowering it then its not providing anything in anyway alternative!
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Ah, well, at least it will be uncensored in the blockchain....?
Ahem.
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I do agree with all your points, which are very valid. On the other hand, I do believe that downvotes should be exercised with more caution by some people among us, who recklessly destroy the reputation of others, sometimes even due to a small noobish mistake, that could have easily been fixed with a simple warning. Upvoted and resteemed!
☂ ⓐⓒⓘⓓ ⓖⓞⓓ ⓒⓐⓣ™
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I'm not sure about how to best address the situation but what concerns me about downvoting is the potential for retaliation. As a new user, I'm hesitant to downvote posts that are clearly spam/plagiarised incase I incur the wrath of multi accounts.
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This is a valid concern, yes. I think if someone were to flag clear spam, for instance, and there was a community consensus that such spam is inappropriate, the initial downvoter would/could get support from the rest of the community.
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Hopefully! I think I'll feel differently about it when I become more established here. For the time being i've just been tagging steemcleaners. (Not sure why I think this is safer.)
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Maybe a system of downvoting whereby a certain number of users need to downvote in order for it to take effect? So for instance there is an offensive or plagurised post , not until 5 users have downvoted does a penalty take effect. This way its consensus censoring of poor content and prevents retaliation upon a single downvoter, even if the user takes revenge it wont work because they would need 4 more people to help in their revenge voting.
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I have wondered if removing the SP weighting from the down vote would be useful, I suppose it would have a similar limiting effect to what you propose.
If it takes X users to enable the downvote, would it have to disappear entirely if the consensus was reached?
Definitely worth some consideration. Thanks for your reply.
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How about X amount of downvotes a small financial penalty and Y amount of downvotes then removal of the post. Its important i feel to have options , I feel the same with upvoting I'd like everyone to have a Whale vote, a dolphin vote and a minnow vote so within the sphere of liking somones work you can still grade it, if its excellent its maximum vote if its good still upvote but slightly less rewards. If the platform is to work autonomously, to self regulate good content if you like, then incremental voting could be key. Both up and down , but with down votes needing more consensus. what do you think?
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I agree with what you suggest for downvotes but think that the upvoting system you have suggested is flawed.
The current upvote system is proportional to the amount of Steem Power you hold, which is essentially an indication of your current medium-long term investment in the platform.
We're already seeing a lot of people upvoting their own posts and I can't help but think that people would just use their 'whale vote' on them selves. Essentially damaging the distribution of rewards.
That's just my point of view. This is all an experiment and until it's tried we have no proof of whether it has helped or not.
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I never suggested any self voting I find that a ridiculous idea.
Again the amount of money you have should not effect voting power.
This is the exact flawed corrupt model we run in real societies where wealth buys power and votes!
Separate financial investment from voting its essential to both sets of users. The financial investment will become worthless if good content isn't allowed to find flourish in a fair and free system .... and the creative and talented people who are fun to read will move onto a platform that provides them with a real voice. If a platform started today with one person one vote and no Whales it would extract a serious amount of value out of Steemit straight away.
Why is everyone mixing up voting with financial input?? The two must be kept separate otherwise you have whats known as a Feudal system "rule by the rich"
Arguing against this is like arguing that George Soros or Bill Gates should get a million votes each in the next election.
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This is a very important discussion, indeed!
You made me think about this...
First of all: Flags are an integral part of this system. A tool (given to us by the gods of the code ;-) )
Every tool can be used to do very subjectively "good" and "bad", depending on the person using this tool.
Secondly: It's up to the community to educate all those newcomers, what a flag is (only problem... it seems, that there is a very deep gap about what will be taught. The bigger part ( coming indoctrinated from other SocialMedia ) are not used to the "negative" downvote part, thus seeing the use of the tool as "bad". The other part (I think in total this must be the much smaller, but more SP-powered part) may already have understood what a flag means.
Most are not aware, that flagging overrewarded posts means "more" rewards for everybody else. Possibly by just hiding the rewards, there will be enough psychological impact, that there is much less personal drama on "lost" rewards. ( I am aware that this number is needed in a lot of processes to find out "trending", "hot" ... but just hiding might be enough)
So what to do:
Overcoming shortterm opportunism to create longterm benefit for everybody. There are loads of issues to be fixed, but generally spoken in a "agree to disagree"-way instead of a "rule"-way.
The way it would work for myself:
-I will try to gently tell people that they would have gotten my upvote for their comment if they did not vote for themselves in the first place. I hope this will "educate" in a way that I prefer and if enough bigger stakes would do this (YEPP it's a time issue) this "selfvoting-comments"-problem would be fixed very fast.
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I think flagging is for the rich. It's okay to beat up a minnow. They ae powerless to do anything. But, if you mix it up with a whale, say over their posts being overrewarded. You can lose big time.
Would you agree?
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Just wanted to emphasize that.
The love of money, albeit potential, is the problem.
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Downvoting should have never been changed to a flag imo...
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Yeah, the term "flag" on the internet sends a completely different message. Sure, the downvote is used also for, well, flagging, but there's a wider utility for it.
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I think you are being quite judgemental and sitting on your high horse. People have spent hundreds and thousands of dollars to buy Steem Power or have spent countless hours to work for their SP. They need something in return. If they vote for themselves, it is because they need an ROI and the system allows them to do it. I spend lots of hours everyday on Steem. I am a poor writer. English is my second language. I enjoy reading the articles on Steem and I upvote good articles. I sometimes comment on the articles but sometimes the authors are quite oblivious to my comments. They don't reply to my comment nor do they acknowledge that they have read my comment by upvoting it (even with 1% Voting power would be sufficient). Should I be flagging those authors? I have spent money on them but they are too busy raking up upvotes in their articles that they don't even acknowledge our comments. This platform does NOT run only because of authors. This platform also runs because of users/readers who spend money on SP to upvote good articles. They spend money on Steem so price of Steem goes up and they upvote articles and authors make money. If they upvote their own comments and make a few cents, why does it hurt you so much? You are already making hundreds of dollars through your writings because they are upvoting you, can't they make a few cents sometimes?
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Like I said.
People can use their stake however they wish.
It can be upvoting your own spam, or it can be flagging those who upvote their own spam. In my opinion.
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I'm new here, so I'm learning about all of this for the first time. Good info to know...I appreciate your perspective-- thanks for sharing!
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Thank you as I'm still a newby here and there's just so much to learn.
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Oh I think this needs to be policed. We work hard for our votes. These spammers have no place here. But yeah, you don't want to have to do with someone having a tantrum...
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Not sure of a good way this could be handled. But what I have seen on other sites it does seem to be the favorite pastime of some. So much so that I wonder how they could possibly have any life at all. Maybe a spam filter of some sort would work? Thank you and take care.
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@schattenjaeger, definitely a discussion that needs to happen.
On the flagging front, one possibility I thought about (back when the so-called "whale no-vote experiment" was active) was turning the whole flagging/downvote issue into a two-step process. A "flag" literally becomes what it is everywhere else... an "alert" that there might be dodgy content. But maybe there's no actual "downvote" till there's some level of concensus... maybe 5 or 8 flags on a post.
The purpose being that personal vendettas and petty squabbles might be taken out of the equation, somewhat. Could they be overcome with bots? Sure... so let's say someone spams, and gets flagged. When there are six flags, the the collective weight of the flaggers then becomes a downvote by account called "system" (or something else) which also removes individual fingerpointing somewhat.
Don't know if it would work... nor if "downvoting by consensus" is a desirable approach. Just thinking out loud here.
As for self upvoting... I'll summarize my two bits (written previously, elsewhere) as this: For me there's something ethically dodgy about voting for your own content... and especially comments. That said, if I arrive "late" on a post that has a LOT of comments... and I put 20 minutes into writing a long and relevant comment? I might upvote it simply to make it more visible (as I might do with this comment... we'll see)... like people used to do when they would "bump" threads on old style message boards. I do the same thing for other people who write great comments and get overlooked, however.
That said, since I think most self-voting is done for money, I have no effective answers, there. Most people are greedy and put money far ahead of morality.
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There is precedent for flagging in this situation: I don't have specific examples, but whales used to flag each other for upvoting their own low-content posts.
I suppose a fix would be to implement both a redistribution button and a downvote reputation button -- I've been less active on steem the past 8 months, but I've noticed the reputation numbers change much slower now. I've probably made ~30 blog posts since returning and my reputation has stayed at 62, so I'm not sure what it means anymore, but having a redistribution option separate would be an ok fix.
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Do you happen to know if a downvote is notified to the poster? I have never been downvoted, so I don't know, or maybe I have and I didn't know it? Thanks!
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For me as a new user it is strange that there is no downvote. There is so much Copy and Paste here on this platform that I fear that in the long run the quality of content is not improving. I don't even understand why u can upvote yourself. I find this useless. I like steem, but sometimes I feel it is not 100% straight in what it attempts to do.
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yeah I was thinking about downvoting spam comments a couple of times but the word 'flag' and the intimidating popup doesn't really make me feel comfortable ;)
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I never self vote after HF19. I don't see a reason. I might do it once in a while if I want my vote to have more visibility but I think in the comments, other people upvoting is a sign of " good comment, thank you!".
I upvote at various % all the comments I lik.e
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Very interesting subject, and very interesting remarks of yours, @schattenjaeger. Thanks.
I thought about it a few days ago, and wrote three lines about it. I thought I´d share them with you. About something you just mentioned: why this flag thing, instead of a downvote that shows like a vote? Same type of box, one for upvotes, the other for downvotes. And no flags of these, signalling articles.
https://beta.chainbb.com/steemit/@gregario/why-the-flags
The other aspect is more phylosofical. My first impression is that it´s very difficult to justify this power given to people with voting power to undo what happens to other people. It sounds to me like if you have a lot of money you can go to the bakery shop and make the baker not sell bread to your neighbours (hypersimplified, I know).
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Personally I have never flagged anyone although I have been flagged myself. Remember @asshole? I just ignore it. Same as when I see a post that seems to have earned a lot of rewards for a spammy post or comment. I've got better things to do with my time on Steemit than to flag people. Like writing a good post for example.
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As you, I would not like to see any more spam here than there already is, and this last day it's really hard because we are "under attack" for spam comments on the posts and direct messages in the steemit-chat. Sometimes I just ignore them, sometimes I try to explain that it's spam and I don't like spam. Maybe the flag/downvote it's a drastic solution, I'm not sure about this. However, I'm sure that we have to study a solution.
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Also on the subject of self voting , this reminds me of corrupt trading known as stock buy backs, legal yes, ethical? Investing in your own self worth is not a good look.
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I agree for general postings, but the default for new content being a self-upvote kind of puts the blessing of STEEMIT on upvoting your own comment, IMO.
Flagging should be separate from downvotes. Just my 2¢
...and I'm just a Steem-Newb-Minnow with a big stake LOL
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Flagging spam, plagiarism and unlawful content - I am all for it.
I have seen, however, downvoting being used inappropriately for simply politically disagreeing with a post. There are serial downvoters who use significant steem power to downvote users en masse without rhyme or reason but political spite.
There is a steemit.chat channel #steemitabuse, where I just today flagged such a user who has been downvoting one of my followers for whatever grudge they hold for days on end. How can we deal more effectively with these type of rogue accounts? It is abuse of the system and doing harm to users for expressing their views, or just for reporting facts. I am subscribing to some users whom I do not agree with politically - yet I am still interested in their thinking. Let's have a debate. Let's exchange ideas. Convince me with facts and logic if you can.
People work hard in many cases. They work for the rewards, for steem power and reputation. Abusing by blanket downvoting is theft.
I think this is a pertinent subject - for who will be next to be abused in such way?
How then do we deal with that?
ch @globocop
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@globocop, @bloom is correct the post in question is obvious spam which your defending https://steemit.com/artificial/@runaway-slave/any-country-with-noble-aspirations-moral-goals-religious-polities-like-russia-he-ll-bring-all-his-artificial-influence-to-bear
steemcleaners has been tagged
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The example @globocop mentioned (calling my recent flagging 'abuse', possibly without spending enough time to understand the issue) was the following: when looking into an account that I already earlier identified and downvoted as a troll/spam/hate speech account, I found the post:
https://steemit.com/artificial/@runaway-slave/any-country-with-noble-aspirations-moral-goals-religious-polities-like-russia-he-ll-bring-all-his-artificial-influence-to-bear
This post is a typical example of anti-Semitic hate speech: who is 'he' who wants to destroy? - hint: the post title/text is a quote from the article linked in the post.
It is also typical that anti-Semitic intention is just hidden enough that it cannot be found and identified with goole-search as anti-Semitic hate speech, but of course their followers and the anti-Semitic community will understand. This suggests that the author might be experienced in smear campaigns against minorities.
By defending their follower-friend (above, in the thread https://steemd.com/music-molecules/@runaway-slave/the-music-of-molecules-trippy-and-cool-gld-slv-music-to-my-ears-wonder-what-cryptos-sound-like-erratic-static and on steemit.chat), @globocop gives the impression that they support this kind of hate speech.
Posts like this that should not tolerated, and of course, I applied a full downvote/flag to that post (and I hope that readers, after checking that post, will help with downvoting).
Further, as usual when I find such a post of a user, I also check other posts of the same user. Also, looking into accounts engaged in hate speech, I apply other standards than usual. So even if the other posts are not as bad, I look e.g. whether they deserve the projected payout and apply if necessary a limited downvote (i.e. reduce payout/reset it to zero, but not enough to hide the post). So even without digging deeper (possibly much of the Zuckerberg-bashing, Rothschild-bashing and of other conspiracy theories pushed by that account has an anti-Semitic motivation as well), this led to a significant number of further downvotes to that account within a short time.
As a matter of principle, when dealing with troll and hate speech accounts I follow the guideline of 'Do not feed the trolls' - so no debate, no discussion, just downvotes.
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Is downvoting accomplished by flagging?
I would be hesitant to try and read a poster's mind...
I was unaware that "Zuck" was Jewish. My critique of
Facebook is strictly commercial, as imo they are likely
doing social engineering in the name of profits. I was also
critical when they were accused of collating data for NSA.
Do they strictly do this to help anti-terror efforts or do they
spy on Americans? I have nothing to hide, and I own all my
content. I'm just not a fan of Facebook.
I support the Jewish people, and wish the BEST for Israel.
Not a Rothschild fan, however. Trillionaires have too much
influence over world economies, one bad day and the U$D is KAPUT!!!
Awaiting your reply, @bloom
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I'm not a fan of Zuckerberg, the Rothschilds, ..., in fact I'm very critical of facebook, the banking industry, ... and I would like to see a post with a critique that is fair and well thought through. But I have seen a number of accounts pushing the wildest anti-Semitic conspiracy theories some of which have been used before by the German Nazis. When these accounts then also attack Zuckerberg and the Rothschilds, one would assume that this is motivated by a deeply-rooted hate against Jews.
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@bloom
Fair assessment, IMO. What I did not like about the Facebook IPO was that the pre-IPO price was raised right before it, and then there was evidence of a big Pump-N-Dump shortly after the IPO was closed. Many people lost lots of money if they "cut their losses" and got out too early. But the stock did make a comeback. Could have been orchestrated by outside forces, but the pre-IPO price boost was internal as far as I know. Stinks like Manip-Manop, in my nostrils.
As for the Rothschild Family, I have read that they are actually descendants of Esau, the nation of the Edomites in the Bible. If that is true, they are orchestrating the biggest "bait and switch" in history, which would make them the #1 Anti-Semites currently going, maybe rivaling the Nazis. But I can neither prove or disprove this theory. Can't rule it out, either ;)
My point is, a single bad apple does not make an entire People BAD.
The Jews are/were God's Chosen People to bring us our Savior,
and for that I am eternally grateful. They have been far more of an
ASSET to this world than a liability. Albert Einstein alone is a great
contributor to the world of Science! I could go on and on...
Big Net PLUS in my humble opinion.
@Icarus
Any group has bad players, this is true.
TRUTH is Truth, whether good or bad for the ones the light shines upon.
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Word! Thank you for explicating my own concerns better than I would have myself, lol. You just gained a new follower, me!
☂ ⓐⓒⓘⓓ ⓖⓞⓓ ⓒⓐⓣ™
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Why thank you ☂ ⓐⓒⓘⓓ ⓖⓞⓓ ⓒⓐⓣ™ ! Followed back after scanning your channel! 😎
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I guess I'll see you around then :D
☂ ⓐⓒⓘⓓ ⓖⓞⓓ ⓒⓐⓣ™
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