The Inevitable Lifestone Thread

in hive-135459 •  4 years ago 

There were quite a few of these threads in the Kong forums, so it seems inevitable that we should have one in the Steem forum as well.
One primary difference, however:
Whereas most people who make these threads are adversaries of Lifestone, I am an unabashed fan of Lifestone.
I think Lifestone in its current incarnation is slightly underpowered.
Every update I ask Grand to buff Lifestone.
These are unpopular opinions and I am aware that this is the case.

Anyway, there was a discussion on Discord in the balancing thread recently, in which it was suggested that Lifestone is a "bad design", because it allows players to pay morale for material advantage.
To respond to that point: First of all, there are other pieces which do "morale for material" as well: Lich and Gemini are the two which come most readily to mind, although there are others. Gemini is the most straightforward of these, since it twiddles the fewest number of knobs: namely, you pay 15-18 value and 4 morale and get two Gemini Twins. One Twin is probably worth about 8 points, roughly comparable to base Berserker. So when you run Gemini, you're basically saying that the value of being able to run a second Berserker in a 17th unit slot is roughly equal to 7 value plus 4 morale (plus 1 turn necessary to split the Gemini in the first place). I don't know if that math is right, but I do assume that the numbers can be tweaked to reach some level of "acceptable" if not.

Lich is a little more complicated because rather than get exactly 1 extra piece, you can create any number of extra pieces for 4 morale each. Granted, Skeletons are nowhere near as powerful as a GeminiTwin, but the ability to summon them in a crowded center is not to be underestimated. I won't go into the math on this piece here. Suffice it to say for now, however, that Lich just got a buff in v0.54 (Skeletons used to cost 5 morale each) and because of that buff will likely be under increased scrutiny for some time.

Which brings us back around to Lifestone. Unlike Gemini and Lich, using Lifestone does not itself increase the number of pieces you can run. Instead, it effectively converts one of your Minion slots into an extra Champion slot. The advantages of doing so are obvious: most Champions are stronger than Minions in all but a few fringe cases. The costs of using a Lifestone are more subtle: for starters, you net -1 morale by using a Lifestone even if you resurrect the most expensive piece possible for the tier you're running. Second, Lifestone is immobile, which makes it vulnerable to an early minion rush or a quick snipe by Thundermage. And the longer it takes you to make a champion trade, the longer it will be before you can use your Lifestone. It also costs 1 turn to resurrect the piece - a small cost to be sure, and it's not impossible to use a resurrected piece to force a tempo play by the opponent, but a cost nonetheless.

Anyway, whether you're a fan or an opponent of Lifestone usage, it's fairly clear that repeated nerfs to the piece have pushed it out of OP territory, and it now presumably lies somewhere in the "balanced" area, if toward the lower end of the spectrum.
...Or is it? Hatred for Lifestone continues unabated, and probably will continue as long as the piece exists.

One last note: guhbuh suggested the following "rework" to Lifestone, which I tweaked slightly:
PieceMaker-LifeStone(1).png
This version of Lifestone is a Champion rather than a Minion, which means there's no concern about gaining extras - you get 7 champions to start and that's all you get. The incentive for using the piece then becomes a flat gain of 3 value if the LifeStone is used.
Is this edition better or worse than Lifestone as it currently exists?

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I don't find current Lifestone to be out of the balanced area, as you say, and it's ok for me (both using it, and facing it).
With this - "bad design, because it allows players to pay morale for material advantage" - I don't agree. It is exactly the kind of trade-off you would expect such game to allow, and make you decide about. Direct win condition / measure (morale) vs indirect / investment into potential. Are material sacrifices for tempo, position, later material advantage, checkmate, all bad designs in classic chess ? Should rules include we can only trade same things, eye for eye ? Not even taking things for free would be allowed :) . King vs King end game tends to have predictable outcome in classic chess, so you would have to either checkmate from equal material, or manage to promote pawns for any material advantage. Wouldn't that make great design :) .

Now evaluating the proposed change of LS (against current):

  • Only allows me to have "improved quality" of revived piece by 3 value vs army limit (current - 4/5/6/7), worse.
  • I don't gain "extra" champion slot, worse.
  • Before activation, inactive slot is champion (vs minion slot in current), worse.
  • Costed / costs me (in army building, and in match while LS doesn't translate to power on field) more in morale, worse. On the other hand, it doesn't cause the extra pay penalty, better. But, I only pay penalty for current when / after it provides me the advantage I want it to give, not beforehand. Could be seen as "2" (sort of) morale penalties vs 1 in favor of current, worse.
  • It can move by itself, tier 3 swaps could even be usefull themselves at times, better (with possible extra upside on tier 3).

Current seems better as sum, and is better in categories / comparisons that make you decide to include LS in first place. Imo, you don't include LS because it maybe escapes from threat, or maybe uses swap before reviving champion. You do it for the extra champion it provides + "extra quality" compared to invested cost (army building).

When comparing to other existing pieces, the suggestion for new LS takes it a bit into direction of Patience.

Hooray, a fellow friend of LifeStone!

The "alternative" LifeStone in the top post is definitely a step down in all ways except for its ability to avoid getting wasted by Thundermage. I imagine the suggestion came about as a negative response to the ease of gaining material with it. Mostly it was an exercise to see whether LifeStone's fiercest detractors would accept even a "watered-down" variation on the same theme.

Thanks for comment; I'll send 10 RP along shortly.

your new lifestone is just envy but it can be used on dead ally champions. The old lifestone is useful but not op due to the amount you can use and morale loss. Your champion version is kinda worthless because its a champion slot thats worthless until you use it. Lifestone should stay a minion because its meant to be dangerous to use, its a unique unit. Morale cost for power is just a thing, some attacks cost morale units cost some... morale for power is also in the case of units that lose morale on death.
Take the smelliest unit, greed+++, you pay 25 when it dies, for 4 extra morale on your army, you are paying the morale ingame rather than in the army creation.

As it happens, I agree with your post about the "alternative" lifestone.
I wouldn't have thought about the comparison to Envy myself, but I suppose it does fit after a fashion since the net result is value gain from getting a more expensive champion than the one you initially fielded.

Also, I made no promise in the original post but I will award 10 RP for your comment.

You are wrong about Gemini. I'm gonna copypaste my Discord message:

when it costed 12, people teleported it onto row 3 and split, and this was okay because it was so OP that paying "6 army points + 2 morale" was worth it for each, but it was actually better to split on row 1, because 1. gemini gives you the defensive edge and you can stall, 2. units with overcosted value (such as geminitwin and phalanx with armor broken) are more vulnerable so it is better to hide them away

the same thing i said for morale-positive pieces also applies for pieces with on death morale penalty, but the sheer overpoweredness of the morale penalty pieces is making people think that trading them is an equally good tactic to keeping them

Also, your LifeStone (lol capitalization - at this point, I should stop being such a game purist and say "Lifestone" because it even looks better to me) analysis does not mention the massive material gain from it, instead opting to call it turning it into "a champion slot" (which is true but would hardly be what I consider most important about it, because so many minions are like champions anyway). In fact it seems like you never analyzed the material/morale value at all, creating a LifeStone that just gives +3 morale and +3 material?

Anyway, current LifeStone at best basically gives -1 morale and +7 material, which is actually insane. The free material from LifeStone is so strong still that I am very confident that it's still overpowered and the only reason it's not is because of nuance (nuance is a meme term that makes fun of grand calling RPS nuance). ThunderMage and GravityMage have made it basically unplayable, Grand still thinks it's okay to require low-cost swappers and making a mess out of your defense to counter ThunderMage vs. LifeStone.

There is one exception, though:

also phoenix+0 lifestone+3 is a thing, you thundermage your own phoenix early so your lifestone cannot be exploited

An acceptable rebuttal re: Gemini: certainly I can see the appeal of trying to keep one or both Twins alive for stalling purposes because of their high value.

Yes, I definitely should have mentioned the increase in material from successful LifeStone usage, as that is the entire reason for the piece's existence. I will note however that your comment does not assert that LifeStone is "bad design", merely that a piece whose usage provides a net benefit of "-1 morale and +4 to +7 material" is still a strong piece despite its RPS issues against gravity and thunder. If that is your belief, then that means you would fall on my side of the "should LifeStone exist or not?" argument camp, which I appreciate.

For the record, I have argued in the past, and would again in the future, that nerfs to LifeStone should not be mere simple numeric edits. For example, pieces revived by LifeStone could come back frozen/petrified for 3/5 turns, which would allow users to pay for a material advantage with a tempo or positional disadvantage.

also phoenix+0 lifestone+3 is a thing, you thundermage your own phoenix early so your lifestone cannot be exploited

This is a disgusting interaction. Phoenix reviving itself is one thing; Phoenix cloning itself through LifeStone manipulation is quite another. If I was Grand, I would consider this interaction to be a bug and endeavor to figure out some way to make it not work.

Thanks for the comment; I shall send you 10 RP shortly.

Just a sidenote on Gemini, I don't believe that the vanilla moveset of "3 range rook" is worth 8. Probably around the lower end of 7-8, especially as Crusader and AirElemental are basically strict upgrades to that.

I don't have a problem with LifeStone reviving things. I'm thinking of a design in our game that does the same but is more granular with costs (so you could revive a number of different units, or one big cost one). Though this is even more difficult to balance and may not see the light of day (because of the idea of "unit advantage", the idea that units may have a different extra innate cost than their number such that, say, two WaterElemental for a Rook is NOT an equal trade - for example, Pawns in this game are 0 but not literally zero value). To make a properly balanced unit like the one I mentioned, you would basically have to figure out that number and incorporate it into the design, or rebalance the game so the piece costs make sense with the unit advantage idea.

I feel like that interaction is pretty intentional, at least the Phoenix LifeStone part. Gemini's value was probably pulled out of LifeStone range for that reason, as you could do it with Gemini too. But there's a devbot army that uses 4 Phoenix+++'s and spams LifeStone+++.

Basically, currently I think LifeStone is really bad design right now, but the idea of reviving (which is really broad) can be quite good.

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