"I simply downvote" - Response to Crypto.Piotrs Criticism of Transisto - The Downvote Knight MemesteemCreated with Sketch.

in hive-174578 •  5 years ago  (edited)

Doing my rounds on the SFR Discord to see the going ons and became aware of this situation.

wo0nx0.png

Obviously, need this up here to be the thumbnail.

Basically, @crypto.piotr was calling out @transisto who runs @likwid for downvoting a user that apparently wasn't using their downvote mana. Moreover, they haven't appeared to use it in the last week or longer which I will explain below but let's start with a quick meme.

I've been on this strange Batman phase after watching The Joker.

Besides making my sister-in-law and wife shake their head when I do the laugh from the movie, I've been trying to draw parallels to the world around me and it's going-ons. By the way, not even talking about the "tortured soul I'm dying inside" laugh but the maniacal laughter. I think I'm pretty good at it to be honest and considering trying out for a haunted house next season.



Send in the Clowns

After seeing the post and @whatsup comment, this one called out to me to create it. I had no choice but to comply. Including the quote as well...

"Because @transisto's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight."

xm3opu.jpg

I really love how the screen snip captured:

"I simply downvote"

Had to joke around that would be my new recurring meme and SFR catch-22 category. Actually, I'm only kidding about one of those things.😜

I'm not going to spoil the movie if you happened to live under a rock and never watch it. Do yourself a favor and watch it. Seeing it for the second time really helped me pick up on things. The gist of the statement is that the true hero sometimes has to do questionable things. Things that people may not understand. This is opposed to the hero the people need which operates within lawful parameters.

No, I'm not saying we should give ourselves a high five as heroes of the blockchain. It's something all of us should be doing as stakeholders if we care about that stake to hold value and not be siphoned out by the exploitative. I don't want to get too deep into the philosphy and moral implications partly because it's late and I need rest for that challenges of my day job.

So, as to not re-invent the wheel, I'll include my comment below and may interject if I feel something needs to be clarified or an additional point should be made.

I will also include the script that was used to pull this users vote data. I will add that I would have obtained a much larger window into their habits but, unfortunately, it seems I am hitting a wall on the API side of the house. Enough technobabble, I'll put that below so the nerds can nerd out. My first remark below was in regard to the cropped words mentioned already.

To be perfectly honest, he could have stopped right there and not even extend the courtesy to these people.

We've encountered many downvoters that won't extend this courtesy. It's kind of a bummer. Sometimes, you can speculate. Like @ctime hitting a couple of my posts / comments after criticizing the potato but other times one is left in the dark. My opinion is he should be thankful he got any kind of feedback even if he didn't like it. Also, had an opportunity to discuss the matter.

Moving on..

I'm generally not in favor of content agnostic downvotes but these is something I can can get on board with because it's some bullshit reason people give for not using their downvotes to make Steem better.

A. They are a people pleaser that shirks duty for being liked and defers it to others.
Perhaps "responsibility" would be more apt.

B. They are a coward afraid of anything remotely controversial.
Some people avoid controversy like they would the Coronavirus. I am not one of them.

Both of these I have little if any respect for. If everybody had a mentality like that, this place would go to hell in a handbasket.

I believe this. Furthermore, it's kind of messed up to assume those "hated" flag guys will take care of that racket. Way I see it, it's selfishness being dressed up as being nice or even false piety. Maybe they want to be popular but the the sooner we all realize negative curation is something we should all put a bit of time in. Find a manipulator. Flag a manipulator.

udgp86.png
Note: Please, see our Abuse Definitions for specific guidelines.

Also, check out the sleek Flag Trail App designed by @reazuliqbal if you would like to assist in blockchain cleanup without lifting a finger. (after initial setup of course)

See? It's Easy.

Edit: I would *consider downvoting a never downvoter, not just because someone let their dv top off. To me its an interesting idea that merits further exploration imo

The rest of the comment was critical of @crypto.piotr for, in my opinion, not following due diligence in presenting the subject matter which I find can be counterproductive to what should be our mutual goal of keeping Steem clean.

I doesn't fall in any user or groups responsibility as it's something that has bearing on the sustainability and self-policing capabilities designed into our platform.

Before I get off my soapbox

Did you know you can get paid to find and downvote abuse? That's basically our spiel and I have recently picked up efforts to optimize our bot which I will document in a later update.

Basically, we have grown this project for 2 years and change and the intent is to foster and encourage decentralizing content moderation and empowering those that partake with visibility / stake that they we may grow together.

Believe it or not, this is not ever our final form as I am in the midst of developing a web app and have a few more ideas up my sleeve.

If you want to be on the ground floor, I would advise following me so that you will be apprised to new updates to include business plans once I secure rights to certain intellectual property.

Well, It's 1 AM here. So much for that quick post, huh?

Oh, I almost forgot. Time for the NERD THINGS!

This is a little Python snippet. I use Beem to do what was supposed to be pull ALL the votes on the account.

a = Account('livinguktaiwan')
downvotes = []

for v in a.get_account_votes():
    if int(v['rshares']) < 0:
        downvotes.append(v)

8begwd.png

As you can see in the above, it only pull 126 votes out of 19719 cast. This is how the output of the votes look when you print them. Included the first and last.

{'author': 'gooddream', 'id': 535326633, 'last_update': '2020-01-21T08:25:09', 'num_changes': 0, 'permlink': 'how-to-get-ripped-off-by-a-taxi-in-da-nang-vietnam-sad-but-true', 'rshares': '276638629072', 'vote_percent': 3500, 'voter': 'livinguktaiwan', 'weight': 15415}
{'author': 'pennsif', 'id': 538047046, 'last_update': '2020-01-28T04:36:06', 'num_changes': 0, 'permlink': 'returnoftheprepper8proofofegg-da4wu99oiq', 'rshares': '304951916715', 'vote_percent': 3900, 'voter': 'livinguktaiwan', 'weight': 45056}

I verified that reversing the expression to greater than does get the upvotes so the logic is sound. I may try to develop a script to obtain the votes using account_history in chunks due to the limits. A lot of the things I used to do in the ol days are becoming a bit more challenging.

One thing that appeared anomolous to me was that when checking my account it only pulled 116 votes versus their 126. I don't know what exactly is going on but it seems that @holger80's library may not be in line with the RPC changes.

I could theorize as to why at this point. Is it because RPC node operators are feeling the pinch as we continue to grow or perhaps another reason. I'd have to do some research but it does appear some cost saving measures where implemented on the API.

If you have any insight into this, please let me know.

I suppose a possible way forward for me is to start streaming the blockchain data I need into a relational database but I would have to assess the technical requirements as my server hardware is fairly dated but maybe it could handle MIRA with at least one of the plugins I would need.

But, for now, sleep is my top priority. Good night yall!

swollMrFlaggy.png


Would you like to delegate to the Steem Flag Rewards project and promote decentralized moderation?

It's much more fashionable than self-voting.

Here are some handy delegation links!

50 SP 100 SP 500 SP 1000 SP

Also, here is my SteemAuto fanbase link if you would like to be one of my consistent supporters.


P.S. This was created using the eSteem Surfer Desktop App and really digging it. I highly recommend it if you are on a Desktop. P.S. Edited with Busy.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

Downvoting someome for not downvoting is my new favorite reason for downvoting.
Maybe it could push them into my 2nd least favorite reason for downvoting which is revenge (least favorite is opinion disagreement).

Good reason, right @abitcoinskeptic? :)

Beem gets rate limited frequently with Steemit nodes due to tightening of their nodes and no logic in beem to deal with it.

I thought I was going insane the other day, Marky.

I tried rewriting the script to do the same thing in like 10 different ways and I could not for the life of me figure out why I would not get the desired results.

So, not only is it rate limiting but also a limitation of how much historical data is stored. I learned this with the get_blog method of the Account class. Was losing my shit until I read the source more closely.

I know there's a good programmer humor meme in there somewhere.

q8cnqk.jpg

Beem floods the node with requests without regard to rate limiting.

I have done some tests where I query history on an account and count how many records I get from a particular block. Every time I run it, I get a different result. Not completely, like sometimes I get the right result, sometimes I get fewer, if I run it 25 times, I'd get 3 different totals.

It's been like 3 months since a PR. Haven't even looked at open issues. Do you know if @holger80 is still around or sitting on a beach somewhere drinking martinis?

I mean not that he didn't earn it. I would buy him a few rounds myself as the library has been so useful... But seems like things are starting to fray.

Not sure how helpful I can be but plan to look into it. Do you know if the rate limiting / history settings is something exposed by the APIs?

Holger is gone. He stopped working on beem and stopped working on Scotbot and just disappeared.

I don't think the rate limits are published but I have been meaning to ask what they are, but I think they change frequently.

Oh, that sucks! Guess we better fork the repo then and hope we get a few people to work on it.

I mean could create my own database solution but think the reliability of the library is important for other Python people that want to build cool shit on our chain to do so.

Without having to host an expensive node, I mean. Having the low cost of entry, in other words, I believe is a good selling point for Steem.

Too bad Utopian bailed as that would have been exactly the kind of stuff they would reward.

Proposal?

Suppose it is worth a shot if I get some sort of demo up.

There are existing db solutions (saw one for mongoDB) but haven't given them a spin.

Planning on developing a containerized web API that auto-populate what the user needs into a SQL db. Think SteemSql in a box but w customizable views.

I still need to get more spun up w the web frameworks I've been working with. Found a good guide that is demystifying a lot of the process to me.

Loading...
Loading...

Also, would the inconsistencies are mostly due to lack of uniformity between nodes or does it seem to be some sort if bug in the libray?

Loading...

I think it is potentially both since api.steemit.com is a cluster. I had this discussion really recently for this exact problem.

The easiest (not cheapest) solution is to run your own node.

You have an approximate figure for the cost? If I could afford it, definitely would wanna cross that bridge at some point.

$200-600+/m

Ouch! Yeah that would def not fit my budget anytime soon.

And as the blockchain continues to grow. It just becomes more and more expensive, right?

Wonder if some sort of archival mechanism would be feasible to further reduce the overhead.

For instance, consensus decides to pick a block and someone offload everything to a slower more inexpesive storage medium instead of keeping so much in RAM.

Would something like that work. The last thing I would want to see is people start to shutdown or further restrict capabilities due to cost.

Hoping we can proactively address somehow.

Loading...
Loading...

You guys have a special place in my heart still from saving myself and others from the plague that was camille.

Sometimes I also read your posts on religion, and in your work with SFR I know you have a strong sense of ethics.

The wall I keep running into with flagging communities, is the conflict of interest.

By rewarding people to "clean up" and "restore" the reward pool, why would the hall monitors pass up an opportunity to earn more? Who polices the police?

Is it going to come down to which protection agency is the strongest, or the best paying? Or are the people expected to somehow organize themselves into a loose revolution if they don't like being flagged for not knowing the thousands of "because I said so" rules that change every day?

The culture of steem evolves every day, and the technology people are using with it too. Maybe I am just venting a bit, because I think you enjoy philosophy subjects a bit.

Let me know what you think if you can see things from the point of view of folks who don't like being blacklisted and revenge flagged for not jumping through someone else's rules.

Personally, I usually pick up other people's garbage in the park and streets when I see it. I don't reward street peddlers asking me for gas money every day. I don't feel justified to take money from their their earnings either though.

That is how I look at flagging average people who work hard to post original content but cross the line in the eyes of a random stranger. I guess that happens in real life too, but I don't really like seeing "wrong place, wrong time" casualties. It raises my alarm bells to want to help people out who are mistakenly picked on.

We are a collective, we police ourselves.
You should join us!

Sfr has no leadership, only leaders.

Sfr has no leadership, only leaders

Well said. Yes, I hope nobody has the impression that I try to run shit. I know you don't so thanks for helping to clarify that.

Leadership implied followers, and well, we make a better herd of cats than a regimented platoon, imo.

herd of cats

I see what you did there.

By rewarding people to "clean up" and "restore" the reward pool, why would the hall monitors pass up an opportunity to earn more? Who polices the police?

Now that you mention it. We do need a mechanism for auditing our bot vots. Thinking maybe a declined rewards curation showcase post. Maybe I'll use the @admiralbot account for that so feel free to give it a follow. Once it gets going, we can monitor and people can let us know if anything looks amiss.

Let me know what you think if you can see things from the point of view of folks who don't like being blacklisted and revenge flagged for not jumping through someone else's rules.

I hear what you're saying but there's a tension between well-intentioned flaggers and those that don't even help a little. I mean flag trail offers a lot of features. They don't wanna flag a higher stake user because fear of retaliation? That's an easy fix! Lot of it can be customized but people may just not be aware.

The good thing about flagging with SFR is the unity and camaraderie we have. If one of our guys gets flagged, there is the casualty-care channel where they can get some help although I haven't been monitoring it as closely as I should. Maybe get a discord web hook in general to watch for incoming flags on any of our members would be a better one. I'll have to give that some thought.

Well.. it's getting late. I'll hit the last couple tomorrow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Hope my answers helped address some of the concerns.

Had to give myself a week before reading the response to cool my jets down. Some of my favorite artists/authors had been blacklisted, and I still have a bit of cow when I see their new art posts labeled as spam/theft/recycled.

Thank you for giving me a dignified response. As I expected, you are very diplomatic as always and able to be persuasive with objective reasoning.

I do not understand how the declined payout bot helps. Something that would audit SFR or all?

I am leaning closer to considering SFR as a way to dilly out my downvotes. Your team has good people skills, and that is a huge plus!

Thanks, @creativetruth. Things should get even better when I onboard my brother. We're doing a lot w relatively little and the big bottleneck is manpower / time.

I plan to pass the mantle somewhat to my bro Richard and teaching him what I know. I've learned trying to juggle everything with my full time job, developmentally challenged child and chronic pain conditions leaves me a bit over encumbered at times.

Hope I can harness the young buck energy of my bro while paving the way for for growth and bigger opportunities for all.

The big plan is developing a system where we can provide businesses moderation services. Think w the right framework. Something like that could be really big.

Yes, I can see a lot of potential in that. Let's hope the torch continues to burn brighter when you pass it on.

Thinking maybe a declined rewards curation showcase post.

Nah, you gotta make it burn.

I mean, everyone is doing it.

SFR doesn't run blacklists. Other entities can do that. We deal with people on case by case basis for the most part.

And we have compensated people for mistakes we made before.

SFR does have a pretty stellar team.

Do you think it's the leadership of SFR that allows it to have... not sure what the right word is, "friendlier and fairer" policies than other flagging groups?

Hey I'm right here! J/K

I'll respond to this in a bit. Want to make sure I give your unusually thoughtful replies the attention they deserve.

If you have any insight into this, please let me know.

«-INSPIRATION

Cranky Script

I like SFR but there is much more abuse going on than bidbot misuse, like sbi @ecoinstats @steemexplorers autoposting/selfvoting or stake based upvotes - buy my S-E token and I will upvote your posts, any ideas what to do with this shit? I'm downvoting it for long time but I'm getting tired

Loading...
  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment

Hi, @anthonyadavisii!

You just got a 16.18% upvote from SteemPlus!
To get higher upvotes, earn more SteemPlus Points (SPP). On your Steemit wallet, check your SPP balance and click on "How to earn SPP?" to find out all the ways to earn.
If you're not using SteemPlus yet, please check our last posts in here to see the many ways in which SteemPlus can improve your Steem experience on Steemit and Busy.

Since I see one of my comments "up in lights" here in your post @anthonyadavisii, you and the SFR team might want to know we do make progress with people. From time to time ...

https://steempeak.com/steemhunt/@roleerob/re-zainabfatima-q4rzyp

For those interested to see the "rest of the story" on this exchange, I did what I could, after her response, to encourage to "keep on keepin' on" ...

So ... One account at a time, progress is being made.

Thanks for using eSteem!
Your post has been voted as a part of eSteem encouragement program. Keep up the good work!
Dear reader, Install Android, iOS Mobile app or Windows, Mac, Linux Surfer app, if you haven't already!
Learn more: https://esteem.app
Join our discord: https://discord.me/esteem

Hi @anthonyadavisii!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 5.389 which ranks you at #696 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has dropped 3 places in the last three days (old rank 693).

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 90 contributions, your post is ranked at #4.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • You've built up a nice network.
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Try to work on user engagement: the more people that interact with you via the comments, the higher your UA score!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

Congratulations @anthonyadavisii! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

You made more than 4500 comments. Your next target is to reach 5000 comments.
You got more than 6250 replies. Your next target is to reach 6500 replies.

You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

To support your work, I also upvoted your post!

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

As a follower of @followforupvotes this post has been randomly selected and upvoted! Enjoy your upvote and have a great day!

Dear @anthonyadavisii

I'm not sure if 'calling out' is what I intentended to do. My goal was to politely bring up this sensitive issue (downvote abouse) and I didn't look for confrontation. Unfortunatelly I didn't manage to avoid that confrontation and my post got hit really hard with number of powerful flags. Well. To bad.

ps. I absolutely enjoyed latest Joker. Thx for reminding me some of it's great scenes :)
Enjoy your weekend,
Yours, Piotr

  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment

As long as there is unmitigated abuse which is not terribly difficult to find, it's irresponsible to not address it using your DV.

Why wouldn't anyone at least try to do this? I understand not having time but it's a matter of wanting to be the cool guy. Then it's kind of bullshit.

It's like wanting to be the "good parent" and making your spouse be the disciplinarian.

Irresponsible or not, it doesn't matter. By enforcing too many rules and by punishing everyone who doesn't follow them, we end up being seem as a Stalinist site.

Do you want that for Steem? I'd rather see it as a place of Freedom.

As long as people are minding their own business and not hurting others intentionally or actively scamming the system, I say we let them be.

If this Network needs that everyone is daily flagging others to survive, then the system is not very well designed. Is it? And we shouldn't punish regular users for the errors of the developers.

Funny, that. I see it that way as well. We have freedom to post what we want, vote what we want (up or down) for whatever reason we see fit.

I personally think the Libertarian mindset that espouses this idea that you can't encourage, instruct and / or implement stake based measures to bring about change they are convicted is positive has been a bane upon this place.

For far too long, have used the existence of antiabuse projects like @steemcleaners (who do good work I might add) as a justification to not use their own power. Its pretty much the bystander effect.

Also, your idea of letting people be seems to presuppose that everything these people do exists in a vacuum and doesn't imoact others. I would suggest going to a mostly irrelevant chain like Whaleshares if you don't wanna downvote.

I would venture to say their decline has MUCH to do with their idiotic removal of downvotes. It's negative curation. You're not killing anybody by adjusting rewards down.

  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment

One could argue its the downward pressure put on the token by users that avoid putting in effort like a cat avoids water. Which group do you think is more likely to remain. The people that have poured their heart into this place or the ones that don't like to commit resources. I think you know the answer intuitively but suppress the truth.

The lazy people tend to just game, game, game and dip whereas folks like us have more than our money invested here.

But keep on with the fLAg MAn bAD! Go ahead, make us your scapegoats.

  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment