I had planned to target other issues in Steemit, and was slowly moving ahead to lay the foundations, but then this hypocritical and irrational flagging that targets original quality information like morality and self-knowledge reached a limit for me. So I went after this bullshit first, and knew that going after whales has it cost (bernie took it upon himself to get xeldal to no longer upvote me, and abit removed their witness approval). I knew there would be costs, and there will continue to be costs as I speak up about issues.
It's even more costly when so few actually care to stand for the issue and make noise about it. When it's just one person making noise about an issue, less people take it seriously, and simply brush it off as one person's issue with another person who flagged them. Apparently reading is a problem when you lay out what happened yet people don't want to read what was said...
Thanks to a few posts I am aware of that I have resteemed, at least I know some people are aware of this issue to some degree and are confronting it in their own way. Thank you for speaking up.
I wonder if people understand how change happens in any community...
Do you think it's by saying nothing?
Do you think it's by letting someone take all the hits while you sit back afraid of being a target?
Nothing much will change in that case...
For things to change in a community that has injustice or wrong-doings being done, pressure, interference, tension, fiction and conflict will emerge. Many people fear the negative and getting involved in standing for something that doesn't directly, immediately and personally involve them. It's not their fight, so then don't really care about what is going on. And worse, they don't care to understand, so they just look at it however they want join in the bandwagon of "look at the whining, pathetic asshole losing his cool!"
So if one person stands against something, and no one else in a community does as well... then they stand alone. The issue will be ignored because no one else stand with the lone wolf. They become marginalized. And then when you're essentially fighting against something on your own, while the "community" doesn't wake up and see what's going on... well then that person gets frustrated. Apparently more noise is required. Maybe people will eventually give a shit if the noise is so loud they have no choice but to pay attention.
So whats the solution? To just ignore it all? For someone to not even address the issue to begin with? I guess I should have just ignored the flag and just let this behavior keep going. Just let wrong-doings go unaddressed. That's a REAL solution, right? LOL.
If a community wants to actually create REAL UNITY, they need to unite under truth and morality. That's the only way to true unity. Hiding, being afraid, letting the status quo perpetuate, does not address anything. A community that leaves someone hanging when they fight for whats right, isn't a real community. Few of those actually exist in the real world too, so don't feel too bad about that for Steemit ;) It's a symptom of being conditioned into cowardice and fear of standing for what right. This pervades all of society. I tried to previously teach about this in previous work, the importance to stand for what's right, and the fear of ostracism, standing with others. I understand the psychological factors that have us in fear and cowardly tyo stand and act against things. I really get it. Sometimes people get together to stand together on issues, but as a society we aren't united anywhere. We just go along to get along.
If you don't care about what's going on or to even understand it from the facts presented, then why don't you just ignore the whole thing? I guess its fun to pile on the BS when someone dares to speak up and keeps making noise about an issue.
So don't fight against injustice and wrong-doings, fight against the person calling attention to it! Brilliant! That's how issues are dealt with... Don't understand an issue, don't care about it, and then turn on the guy who is speaking up and standing for what's right, and just marginalize him more until he just gets torn down.
If you want good contributing members of the community to keep getting slapped, over and over, while they can't stop the powerful people in a disunited "community" from slapping them over, and over, and over, then you need to stand with them. Otherwise, if the community does nothing, one person alone can't stop the irrational abusers of power. It takes numbers!
In real life, I could defend myself from a physical attack. But in a virtual "community" like Steemit, I can't do anything myself to create change, that's what a community is supposed to do together, united in what's right on an issue to address and correct wrongdoings. I can only speak up against wrong-doings, and keep speaking. But for the ignorant fools, this is simply "whining", "complaining", "pathetic", etc. I have defended the right for anyone to speak up against issues in the past, commenting on posts that any issue can be brought up, and in voice chat to correct fallacious understanding where people want to dismiss people bringing up issues as simply "whining" or "complaining".
The only option I have is to speak, and keep speaking, and keep making noise... or else... NOTHING! Nothing at all will happen if no one speaks up. I spoke up, and will continue to speak up.
If no one stand with others on issues, you end up with someone who stands alone, marginalized, and they get alienated and outcast -- not because they did something wrong, but because they DARE to speak up against the wrong-doings that the powerful people in a "community" are doing.
Are you afraid of losing autobots upvotes from whales contacting others to remove those upvotes from your posts?
Are you afraid of getting flagged on your posts for talking about this?
Are you afraid of some whales not liking you?
Do you even understand what the issue is?
Ok, let's just let this flagging behavior continue... right? I shouldn't have said a thing to begin with you say... LOL.
Sure, I could have just shut up, let it continue, keep reaping my big rewards, and not give a shit about what's going on as along as I keep reaping the rewards, which I was. Be all fake and pretend everything is just fine and will magically work itself out. What a good dream. That's what I could have kept doing. It would have been easier. No tension, interference, friction, controversy, conflict. All I had to do was keep coasting along and keep my head down doing my own thing, just ignore problems in Steemit. Because THAT is a real, good "community" member, right? Just care about myself alone and my self-interest to keep making rewards, keep my high payouts, and just take the flag once in a while. Sure, that would have been easier. I knew when I started this I would get hit and be affected. But I did it anyways, because I had enough of the bullshit, irrational, hypocritical flagging. I did what I did because this is an issue about the abuse of power and bad behavior on this platform. Everyone who wants to turn this into "KrNel just wanted to keep making big rewards" doesn't understand because they don't want to understand.
I tried with facts, and apparently facts don't matter to many, they just believe what they want, which I already knew from my work on psychology and cognitive biases, as I made a post yesterday on how facts and truth don't matter to many. So I'll keep making noise, keeping the tension and friction on this issue to generate the interference for people to notice something is up and needs to be addressed.
Flagging is the least effective way of affecting the rewards pool allocation.
Make fun not flags
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You know what a fact or a truth is? That I can use my flag on your posts if I don't believe that it has value. In fact, I think this "flag-war" drama is BAD for Steemit, and I publish my views on the blockchain by flagging you. Do you think trending posts about community members throwing stones back and forth at each other is an attractive method for retaining potential new users?
I understand that the way the flag is represented this website makes it seem personal when someone uses it against you, but I assure you that is not always the case.
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I don't agree. There is a place sure, still flagging has become I'm big so I can do what I want, at least bernie does it and hold no responsibility, blaming a system for his flaws. He's lazy. Lazy and Fat. Fat on cash.
True that, but use your brain, not just your slider(whales seem to forget the gravity here),(it's not a game, people are involved)
I agree with that, still it needs to be addressed an I'm not going to flag you :D t perpetuate a cycle of stupidity.
ACTIVITY is down, so far 3k users are active. If we are getting 150 a day, don't you think that having this issue resolved would actually help out.
I agree it's a touchy shit rotten topic to some and the same on the other end for others like you who want to see things improve. Steemit can grow, not with huge holes in the user base and themes getting a endless re-surge.
This is being said already EVERY time. IT's not personal IT's about the fact that whales are the gatekeepers and get to smack down the aspiring minnows, do you get how many times minnows make it up the trending page.
We need some data actually. This needs a resolution, get some facts going.
I'm going to actually do my best here. Because this IS annoying. AND taking from my time.
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It is a game.
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Complete with a point system.
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If someone is going to abuse their flagging power, that doesn't mean that it still doesn't have a purpose when used correctly. And since Bernie is powering down, isn't it expected that his influence will dwindle as well? Abuse of flagging by those who do not believe in the future of Steem will run its course. That does not mean that there still isn't a purpose for others (I'm not a whale) that wish to show disagreement on rewards.
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I know I even think Bernie powering down isn't helping either. Rather than solving the problem he perpetuated it and now hes ok to leave those "" to their devices. I think this has gone on far enough and needs a change. Bernie isn't a problem, but he could have helped. He didn't answer anything. It's past that point I guess. As far as I know there was a disagreement at some point, then bernie started getting the smacks, he' not a bad guy but his growing frustration could have been resolved, it would be best for everyone to stay and solve the problem.
I agree on disagreement on rewards, @smooth already did yesterday, he framed it correctly tho,still it was seen as a huge ATTACK ,everybody outcried for @karenmckersie she posted,
https://steemit.com/steemit/@karenmckersie/im-taking-a-break-from-steemit-downvoted-by-smooth-for-no-reason-warning-to-new-members
Everybody went and said smooth is the next asshole, then we had the ats-david poke since he's the cause of all this :D
It's bullshit, but that doesn't mean we should concern ourselfe with what people are thinking feeling and going through.
This post will get flagged :D expect it :D
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The root of this problem is people feeling bad for getting flagged. As @kevinwong put it regarding author rewards, you should not "count your chickens before they hatch." I think one way to mitigate this problem is to remove the reward estimation of the post, or do something more visual to represent it. For instance, the dollar amount could be removed, and replaced by a color spectrum. Some visual indicator that shows a post is "highly valued".
That would make the actual payout of the reward more of a surprise to the author until it happens (unless they used some kind of browser extension to calculate the dollar value again), and people probably wouldn't wince as much if a flag is changing the value of the post.
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Yup I've had an instance a while ago when a relatively "experienced" user thought his post was downflagged because the payout amount was reduced slightly, but that's just due to market fluctuations lol. Indeed there are plenty of misconceptions even with the littlest of things
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@kevinwong lol I can't reply to your post! Can't wait until HF17 so we can continue threads.
Anyways, I posted an issue on github suggesting a change that may help the psychological well being of users. We should make it less apparent in the UI how much a post is worth until it's paid and final.
https://github.com/steemit/condenser/issues/1212
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I raised a ticket for this but forgot that's not the way it works 😅. We need posts on this, with specific ideas and suggestions like this but even more detail, even mock ups, etc.. I'll probably do one, you and @kevinwong should too. 💯
@robrigo, I made the same mistake of raising a GitHub issue, they want it to be fielded on Steemit first, then hopefully picked up on by @sneak. As I said above, organizing between us is the best way for this, feel free to mention me and I'll reshare, etc.
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If these posts manage to get on trending, good. Exposure is required. People aren't getting involved and don't want to understand. So keep not understanding, keep not caring about actually looking into the issue to see its about the flagging behavior, no rules, no criteria, just whatever they decide, and targeting original content on morality that they don't like, and keep targeting me. Have fun.
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I'm not targeting you as a person (you seem like a decent human being from my vantage point), I'm publishing my dissent on some of your posts that are making a lion's share of the rewards pool.
Which "People"? Who is this straw man you're targeting with your elitist diatribe?
I will have fun. I fucking love this website. And that's why I'm giving you the time of day to tell you why I flagged. If I were you I'd take a step back from Steemit for a few days. Maybe you'll realize that it isn't a very big deal when someone flags you.
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A flag are based on a opinionated view, not a collective view. So why does a single downvoter or small group of downvoter get to make that judgment of someone "taking too much from the reward pool."
The whales are the one's that vote and have posts that earn high rewards and has the influence on what gets up on trending. The economics of steemit is you are allowed to do 4 posts a day and anymore, your rewards will decrease.
So if he ended up on the trending page by doing 4 posts a day that's the whale's fault for AUTOVOTING like irresponsible people. What looks bad for the platform is user's can expect to get flagged when having success on the judgment of being overvalued and being a good blogger. A lot of people have their logic ass backwards because I didn't see an entire community flag @krnel's post, just a few whales and whale groupies do the flagging. That doesn't mean his posts were overvalued so why should anyone lose rewards because of this?
Stop trying to put the blame on us and the rest of the community that we're "whining." Whales are taking advantage of the community.
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Are you -out of all people- crying for a government ?
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A long time friend of mine who's somewhat of a political activist is fond of saying that that biggest problem with the world today is that people increasingly lack "civic stamina;" that is, they are more inclined than ever to not only ignore the elephant in the room, but tend to attack anyone who "has the gall" to claim there even is an elephant. Even so, most of them tend to be happy-- post fact-- when they benefit from the fact that SOMEone stood up and pointed out that the Emperor wasn't wearing any clothes...
You know as well as I that when "rewards" are involved-- be they monetary, egoic or a combination of the above-- the greed aspect of human nature floats like scum to the top of the cesspool. And everybody gets to deal with the stench, even if it is created by only a tiny percentage of the overall picture.
Facts. Most people lack the personal honesty and integrity to sit with the facts and examine the deeper truth of their motivations. I, for one, appreciate the fact that you have taken the ongoing issues here into the light.
Few will have the chutzpah to openly say "I'm really just here to get rich off this IPO and reap the benefit of thousands of other people's hard work till it's time for me to bail and move to Bali." Because even if that's TRUE, it still makes someone sound like a self-involved asshole, and we (generally) don't like being judged. So the facts get wrapped in "I just CARE about the community!" window dressing.
But it still leaves the question... which gets shoved in the background while the open arguing lives in the foreground.... of "What do you WANT? What do you/we/anyone WANT Steemit to be?" I'd almost say it should be a mandatory community assignment for everyone to go ponder that question and write an essay about it, and post it to a new tag called "community vision." Or something. But get people OUT of "reactivity" and INTO "responsiveness."
In other words "What do you want this place to be?" followed by "are your actions supporting that?"
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Good idea!!!
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That was what said in my post on steemit succeeds of we make it succeed, less than 3 weeks after joining.
My goal is the bottom one. Help people evolve consciousness to change their individual lives, and the world, and using Steemit to do it. Truth and specifically moral truth is #1. I'm trying to get people to care for truth, moral truth, and understand the responsibility to learn about both the positive/negative, truth/falsity, right/wrong, moral/immoral, good/evil, etc. Some people don't recognize the value of that content and try to suppress the information from reaching more people.
Thanks for the feedback, good points made.
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Thank you. I think I shall write more about this, tomorrow... maybe using your original post as inspiration.
I, too, am here mostly for the last reason on your list. On a more personal level, I miss "social blogging." I'm just tired of the algorithm-censorship and "channeled content" of Facebook, and the shallowness of the pool there... while I like the way a conventional WordPress blog can convey information, it lacks the social interactivity. Medium is OK, but I hate the way comments over 50 words become freestanding posts... crappy UI, in my opinion. Steemit feels like-- or has the potential to become-- an interesting "hybrid" of the three... allowing for interactive discussion around user generated topics of interest. I like the "rewards" in the sense that they serve as a good persuasion tool to newcomers that coming to Steemit doesn't mean giving up the few $$$ of revenue, like they may be getting from AdSense.
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Great post, thank you. I am totally with you that we as a community need to speak up if we see flaws or wrong doings. It is actually quiet sad to be honest to see more and more posts on the trending pages with posts about things that probably scare new users or investors away.
So, how are we going to tackle the problem ?
Let's start with putting something together that shows what the exactly problem's are and a proposed Solution (just whining is boring).
I would love to see something in the Regular People Format that @stellabelle put together for the hard fork changes.
Having an easy to look at overview of issues and suggested Solutions is the first step in my opinion and people could refer to that particular overview going forward rather than looking through 10 different posts.
Just my opinion :-)
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Well lets get it going, some points are there.
https://steemit.com/guilds/@beanz/repost-and-reminder-the-rise-and-fall-of-digg-com-a-lesson-for-steemit
I think we are about halfway there :D, we passed the first stages,
User rebellion against more vote rigging
And downfall, which should be avoided. It's not that bad but it needs to be addressed in my mind.
There are disconnects between the people, sure most don't understand that it shouldn't be a big deal to get a reward, or a smaller reward. Still it's a important issue.
I'm saying we need more responsible behavior on the whales part and a bit more engaement from them. "They" are like businessmen on the Bahamas :D while most are slaving away on factories.
I don't care, but many do and react emotionally.
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Hey, thanks for the shoutout. And I agree with you that some solutions would be a good idea. What are your solutions just curious.
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Regarding the vote debate, I don't feel I have the comprehensive understanding about how the underlying logic works, so I can't offer a Solution myself. Instead I would just ask people to state what specifically need to change and than someone from Steemit.Inc can see if those changes are doable or not. Raising the concerns like many do already is a good first step.
So to answer your question directly, my Solution would be for people to not just to state that there is a problem but be more specific about what the problem is and if possible to provide ideas/suggestions on how those problems can be solved.
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If there weren't costs to the fight, it wouldn't be a fight. One of the reasons I liked Lord of the Rings so much was the high price that Frodo payed for doing his duty.
Keep fighting, and rest assured that you have support. It's great that Dan spoke to the value of your work here.
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Until 'they' started letting this topic get to the trending page nobody knew, and fewer cared.
We know when the popular crowd (t)rolls by, and we are glad that keeping our heads down didn't get us ridiculed by the 'cool' kids,...(edited for clarity)
It's not easy to peacefully abdicate power and let others control things that you consider your own, but that IS what is playing out here.
I hope this fork doesn't repeat the larger world, all laws favor the rich,....
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
spreading the word about the censorship on steemit.
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What censorship? I can read your post.
You are not censored. You are sidelined for spamming the network. A choice you made yourself.
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my posts and replys don't show up in any feeds.
You are full of shit.
Should I post a screenshot of your reply feed to show my comment didn't show up in your feed?
Stop with the lies. Word is spreading and the truth of steemit is coming out.
My post dont show up in the new feed when created, they don't show up under any of the tags. they don't show up in my followers feeds. my comments don't show up in peoples reply feeds. That is censorship.
would you look at that my replys don't show up in your reply feed. not censorship according to you though. LOL stop with the stupid already.
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And how did that situation come about? It was a situation of your own making. You spammed everybody and got downvoted. Now you want to play the victim card, which is the exact same behaviour you describe concerning those you oppose with philosophy.
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lies.
the spam came after the censorship.
Censorship is censorship. the reason does not matter.
I am not playing the victim im pointing out the facts. you are the ones crying foul and playing victim.
Stop trying to distort the time line and context of stuff. telling your lies no matter how many times does not make them true.
Funny how anytime I point out when someone else is in the wrong the group of cry bullys come out trying to say im playing the victim. I have been censored, that's not playing anything.
Also this is all a dodge from the points u made just earlier about how im not censored.
Pathetic at best.
LOL
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IF you get enough votes to up your reputation you will be allowed back into the game,...
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People did that 3 times, was instantly flagged more. I made posts about it all when it was going on. they want me silenced, they even censored my alt account.
the next day they flag me with all their alts and bots and it basically makes everyone waste their steempower. after a couple times of that people stop trying to restore my rep.
So no, even IF a lot of people raise my rep again it will only be dropped instantly by the flaggot whales censoring me.
https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/682361772425879557
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Hi, if you write a post with something useful and with payout declined I'd like to upvote it to bring your rep to positive.
//Edit: I changed my mind. I saw "You are full of shit" in your reply which IMHO is offensive. You deserve a negative rep score so other people won't be annoyed.
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/682387128478343181
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interesting.
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resteemed, upvoted and im posting a link to this post on minds.com
https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/682294676924932107
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I am just plankton here with a pretty good reputation.
I guess I don't understand the drama so much as I am not as much involved as the whales and other bigger fishs.
If I get more whale votes and theirfore more steem power, I will naturally involve myself more in these situations with flag wars.
Untill then I am a firm believer that the market is always right and will solve it the best way possible at the current time.
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I'm going to get once more a coffee and get this over with. RE-STEEM in 2 hours just because,.
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get a coffee.
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You seem to lack focus in this post. Morality is subjective. You have yet defined what idea or aspiration you wish others to rally around. The majority of your post seems to be you whining about others flagging your posts because they don't agree or value them which is how steemit works in the first place. Instead of whining write more clearly defined and to the point posts.
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When a mailing list thread veers off topic, eventually the thread gets dominated by people yelling at others to stop it, which causes more people to get annoyed at the volume of messages and post metadiscussion about stopping the metadiscussion.
The only way to fix it is to stop posting about it. Your martyr argument about taking a stand is an interesting narrative, but ultimately the only thing that stops dramatic metadiscussion threads is once everyone has had their yelling out.
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I strongly disagree. Without getting into the underlying question of whether his posts are generally overrewarded, his repeated whining and ranting about voters disagreeing on the value of his content do not add value and should not be rewarded (and if rewarded should be flagged) and attacking other members for voting as they see fit by using name calling and making false accusations (both a form of trolling) are absolutely deserving of a flag.
And this post of his will be flagged by me if is significantly rewarded. There is nothing here that brings value to Steem, most obviously because it is repetitive and redundant, being is fifth or more post airing the same complaint (a form of spamming).
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That's your opinion.
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It might appear like whining to you, because you don't want to hear opposition to your own ideas and actions.
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yes
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This is entirely subjective, according to your tastes. I just wanted to make sure you do realize that just because you believe this, doesn't make it true. I would say that @mynameisbrian's comics are severely under-rewarded. That's my subjective opinion. Neither of these statements are objective facts. They are both opinions. Everything is subjective, that seems to be the way this system works, right?
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Thanks @stellabelle! So kind of you to say. I need to turn on mention notifications because I just came across this comment by chance.
I also agree with the sentiment of your comment 100%. Value is in the eye of the beholder.
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Some people prefer long-winded diatribes, others prefer biting comics. That's just how it is. If I was a whale, comics would be on the top of trending, along with other long-winded diatribes that I personally think are interesting. Variety is the freaking spice of life! I should say, not all comics. ONLY COMICS THAT MAKE ME LAUGH WOULD BE ALLOWED TO TREND.
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Variety would be nice. It is a unfortunate that people are making it an either or choice. Both styles of content can coexist if those who have the staking power would stop moving the pendulum from one extreme to the next.
It is up to the larger stakeholders to get together and talk. This polarization and entrenchment of opposing views is an environment that produces conflict. They need to cross 'no man's land' shake hands, call a truce, and talk about how to act in ways that encourage growth for both parties.
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please can we not kill everybody. I'm hoping on a resolution here.
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Let´s implement this Vote-Canceling as soon as possible @dantheman, I support it 100% with my witness.
Also, please read my short important article about @karenmckersie : https://steemit.com/kicking/@fyrstikken/kicking-little-old-lady-down-the-stairs
@krnel is one of the people I know 100% is for the best of the platform, and if "vote-canceling" needs to be approved, I approve it and I am sure so will many others because a huge part of the community has had enough of this whale-police BS now.
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Vote-cancelling might be important, but implementing something "as soon as possible" means that other, significantly more important things get paused.
I hope we stick to the plan. Ten people's butthurt is not worth delaying our mobile app that will be used by millions.
Not every little incidence of swirling site drama and associated 1-3 ragequits (most of whom don't actually quit) requires that we drop everything and fix it in code. In fact, if we follow this procedure, we get nowhere fast.
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@sneak - Yes, let us just focus on the restaurant at the top and ignore the corner-stones and the foundation - IT WILL ALL BE GREAT - NOT!
@dan, @ned, @dantheman - What is most important? A Solid foundation, or a failing building?
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If you think every instance of weekly finger-pointing on the site is evidence of a failing building—then run.
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I agree with your earlier comment above about sticking to a plan, but you are missing the point that the issues absolutely run deeper and are more foundational than the weekly site drama and finger pointing. But again I agree this does not nevertheless, argue for disrupting progress on a bigger and more important plan. My suggestion, as it has been for some time, would be for the team to stay out of the site voting/downvoting/finger-pointing/name-calling drama entirely and focus on the plan. Getting caught up in it only makes matters worse. Let the community sort it out. This will all be forgotten in time, one way or another.
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Vote cancelling won't produce the outcome you think it will. It basically gets to more or less the same outcome (though with slight differences in the calculation of curation rewards). Instead of downvoting, those who disagree with how whales are allocating rewards repeatedly to concentrated payouts for krnel and others and find that form of voting harmful will will cancel some of it, and the algorithm will find a consensus. Or alternately we will continue to downvote and those whales who disagree will cancel our votes, but in doing so reduce consume their vote power and reduce their own ability to excessively upvote. The net result will be much the same as it is now, with both upvotes and downvotes taking place (i.e. smaller rewards hogged at the top, and more rewards available for higher and more rewards to hundreds or thousands of other posts and comments).
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thanks for getting that @karenmckersie initiative going. That was very kind and good.
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I think whether or not he has produced anything deserving of a flag is subjective. It also depends on how much stake is already voting for that content. It could be good content, but still over-valued. Is that not one of the stated intentions of flagging, @dantheman? Disagreement on rewards?
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Isn't that what whales are trying to do, the main argument is whales voted so whales downvote :D
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https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/681743255410319373
Dan you are one of the flaggots. you have flagged me personally.
Spreading the word about the censorship on this platform the last month seems to be making people notice. to bad its already to late and none of you wanted to listen earlier.
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all I got there was a political debate, everyone is a flaggot here, expecially the higher ups :) get a bigger stake than them and weigh it down uppon them :) funny for a meme, how are you doing btw :) I'm not sure anybody checks what the "banned" "trolls" are up to
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Disagree.
//Edit:
@smooth has explained above.
Also I downvoted this comment due to "disagreement on rewards".
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