"this is not the type of content that will help steemit attract, retain, or grow a user base" - @smooth
Trinity of Consciousness Symbolism appreciation of the work:
Is this Quality Knowledge I Put Out Not Helpful to Steemit? Flagged for Quality Getting Rewarded?
I'm quite tempted to downvote as simple complaining about the opinions of others (that's what flagging is) isn't really appropriate in the "steemit" or "quality" tags.
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And then we have whales upvoting ozcharts multiple times a day for content that could probably be generated by AI.
Keep up good work, you are bringing lasting value.
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Does it matter if it is generated by AI (or even a random number generator) if it brings users and engagement? Analysis of markets is very popular, there are numerous successful web sites and media outlets catering to that interest, large subcommunities on other social sites devoted to it, and many people give a large amount of their time and attention to it. A large portion of that proven successful approach to content could equally be generated by AI (in fact there was literally an AI project that wrote competent stock market news reports in English).
Long-form philosophy blogging is a tiny niche at best. It is read by almost no one and written by even fewer.
If you want to grow this platform into something other than a (temporary) money fountain for a few of your favorites you really need to refocus on what drives, or has any realistic prospect to drive, mass engagement. This isn't it.
Step out of your myopia please, before there is nothing of any lasting value left here.
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So which whales are right? (tragedy of the commons?)
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Seeing as how, this ain't the Pequod, and I ain't Ahab, enjoy the show.
www.highlandernews.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/news.ahab_.wiki_.jpg
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Thank God.
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You watch your dirty whale mouth.
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Thank Herman.
The only other whale story I could think of was the one about Jonah, unless you think anyone has heard of Theodore Sturgeon.
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i didn't quite get the reference but i enjoyed the image.
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It is an illustration from Moby Dick. Ahab was the whale hunter. So many of these content wars seem to be spawned by someone getting whale flagged for content the whale didn't like. Ahab died in the end when he became tangled up in the rope from the harpoon he was using to hunt Moby Dick. It was a statement on trying to fight whales with nothing but a tiny stick. Sorry to be too obscure. Cheers.
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no problem, thanks for giving me the scoop.
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Thanks you for your support once more.
Some people "get it", and some people don't. I'll be talking about this quality issue more. The post yesterday on Reputation Guilds was a good starter to get people to see how things can work differently, and possibly better.
Think about how organizations work in reality, the real world, and then think about how to really make something valuable like that online... quality matters everywhere if you want someone to be interested in what you're offering in terms of monetary value people would actually be willing to pay for. FB and others don't matter for quality, it's only attention based, so anything goes as long as people like/enjoy it. The money investing there comes from ads that target people to buy things from their attention market. It's not investing in a product in Facebook or other sites. There is no product. Steemit has a product, it's the content. Quality matters. (General message, not at "you" Dan)
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It's a free market, people can do as they please. It was just a single flag, but I can understand you're upset because it was a very influential stakeholder and cost you a not insignificant amount in rewards.
I feel negative opinion is just as healthy as positive - one of the reasons why Reddit has been so successful. Unfortunately, the flag is a poor metaphor; probably riles up anarchy folks here too due to the subconscious association with governments and authorities.
I am aware there was a Downvote icon before - would rather just have that back. People would still be upset, but it's healthy for the community - particularly once influence tokens are more justly redistributed.
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Agree. I always thought the icon change was harmful.
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I thing all will be solved if we have both icons/options in existence ! .... BUT >>>>>>>
1.When pushing "flag" it should get a hardcoded -100% downvote
2.When pushing the down arrow it get a hardcoded -20% downvote!
PS When the downvote is -20% don't let the reputation algorithm apply (No impact) ;)
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Actually it doesn’t need to get hard-coded! Each social media can have their own strategy on that matter!
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I can agree with your thinking here to some degree, hence the upvote.
But it seems to me that users would still be able to create multiple accounts, likely bots, to downvote as much as they liked no matter what.
Until this can be stopped, if it can ever be stopped, the hardcoded votes won't be of much help I think.
PS I'm not sure I understand your comment now... especially since the PS. Can you expand on this idea?
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I wrongly thought that reputation goes down when reducing rewards and the down voter has more reputation, but that is not correct (@smooth explained )... It happens only if rewards fall bellow zero... But still I think leaving 2 options with different % down votes will make the trick... It doesn't matter if someone has one or many accounts... Total SP matters
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Maybe one option would be a form of downvote that reduces reward and reputation to zero (but not negative). That is, not expressing an opinion that the post or poster is harming the platform (and should there lose rep), but instead expressing one that the post or poster is not helping or not helping proportionately with what would otherwise be the reward payout (and should not gain or should gain less rep)
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Oh right... I guess that's a good idea then. I'm very positive to it.
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What about a system where downvotes/flags don't actually have an effect on anything until you get 5 of them, then you get the weight of all 5 plus any after that?
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It is easy to create multiple accounts and vote multiple times. There are already people who have thousands of accounts and bots to control them. That is the nature of a decentralized system.
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Nesting again... I also very much like the idea you put forward downstairs, under liondanis answer to me.
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You sir, have raised a good point.
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Like I said, this is a free market. Free markets do not reward quality - they reward popularity.
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It was popular too and HQ. Yes, downgrading HQ posts is going to help ANY organization thumbs up. A good message to send. Awesome.
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In extension of many parameters, they actually end up rewarding both. But I see your point.
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The arrogance that seeps out of that statement almost makes me want to put my puny little flag on. That aside, your post is quality to you and to those who agree. To others, they may not agree. That is their right. Other people see quality in posts you, or I, consider to be garbage. That is the nature of the system.
Without making a statement on the quality, or lack of quality of the post, I disagree with smooth's action because I have always taken the stance that the flag should be an item of censure not simply disagreement or displeasure.
What @smooth has done here is no different than what your friend @beanz has advocated repeatedly that the flag aka downvote can and should be used for. Reflecting the value of the post. You've agreed with her argument until it applies to you? Is that not a hypocrisy?
What applies to the smallest on the system, applies to the largest. So, if you want to use the flag as a downvote, then the whales doing so is just as valid as a minnow like me. The action has greater impact coming from a whale than me but is just as valid.
Community of all types is both messy and fascinating.
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arrogance: "to claim for oneself, assume,"
Did I falsely claim something about myself? No, I was talking about the content, whether this content that comes from me, or other content that comes from others, there is HQ timeless immensely valuable knowledge out there.
Did I falsely claim something about the work? No, but you seem to think I did.
Arrogance is to make a claim and assume something you don't have. If you have it, it's not arrogance, although it can be boastful, prideful, etc. And that's a bad thing, for stating things as they are and people not liking the frank, bold, telling of it like it is? Ha! There is timeless knowledge and some people can't comprehend it's value in their unconscious state of awareness.
If someone isn't able of objectively discerning the relevance and value of knowledge in life, that's not my shortcoming as a false claim in arrogance, that's their own problem to not recognize it. I don't claim "timeless knowledge" about the work falsely. When someone can't recognize the value of knowledge in life, then yes, they are simple-minded because they aren't at a position to be able to discern relevant valuable information in their lives.
Flag way, have fun. The issue is about flagging HQ posts, that I make. Other people, make long posts, that get rewarded each day, and they post once, and always get to the top, while I do it a few times and I'm the target for the HQ post, not the other lesser posts like on cannabis. Go flag that instead, not this HQ knowledge. I support flagging to reduce rewards, as long as there is a valid reason, like shit content or repetitive top 7 trending each time I would post... then OK there is an issue. But flagging for my first HQ post to make it to the top 7 and over $100... wow. Yes, that will surely help any platform by downgrading the top quality content that a organization produces. That will show everyone what is valued here. Awesome.
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Actually, I used both in the original comment. Appears to me that you are the one who truly 'doesn't get it'. No matter how much YOU wish to be the definer of what is a 'crap post' and what is not, YOU ARE NOT the definer. YOU are not THE ONE who gets to decide value.
YOU can decide for yourself what is crap and what has value. OTHERS will make their own choices and this time SOMEONE decided that it should apply to YOU.
What you believe is just for others, must also be applicable to you. IF when it is applied to YOU, you see injustice, then MAYBE you need to rethink your argument.
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LMAO, let's see, you focus in on the first sentence that YOU THINK you can dissect and dismantle and ignore that you were being called out on your hypocrisy in regards to flagging and post value. YES, such timeless posting will surely solve all the problems of the site.
Like I said, what applies to the smallest on the system applies to the largest as well. If it's okay to flag to redistribute rewards it applies to you as much as to others and whales have the same right to do that flagging as puny little me. I don't agree with using the flag for that purpose but when you think it is okay, be prepared to accept it when it happens to you.
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LMAO back at you. Like I said elsewhere in other comments, flag the cannabis post, ok, I was actually expecting it. But it didn't happen. And instead, the real meaningful post gets flagged. Seems this issue is being missed and people think it's just about the "me" getting my post getting flagged. Nope. You just "don't get it".
You don't understand the meaning of words you use, yet again. Before I was "arrogant", now I'm a "hypocrite" even though I have stated consistent criteria for flagging to remove rewards: crap posts and people who always get to the top of the trending, no matter what they post. Yet, those who claim that to be the "long-post police" are not flagging posts that make more than me, each day, from the same people, and get to the top of the trending page. Why is that? That's called hypocrisy. Inconsistent behavior, selective application of methodology to favor others (well basically long-post trending is OK but me?). I don't pretend to be something I'm not.
Flag the cannabis post at nearly $200, not this one at $100. Redistribute the rewards on the posts that don't deserve it, i.e. cannabis post vs. this one. Use rational judgment.
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I can't agree more my friend!
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Don't worry, the-alien's posts are on my short list as well. I'm not on a flagging rampage where I will downvote these things every single time, but I will do it selectively where I disagree about the rewards (and the value they bring or don't bring to stakeholders) and swarm voting.
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Might I suggest that we consider stepping outside the constraints of a binary system and adopting a trinity of opinion. A third option. Upvote. Downvote. Censure/Shun/Ostracize/Constrain?
Upvote and downvote can be exclusively about reward allocation. The third option would be exclusively for reputation loss and post visibility, divorced from reward completely.
Perhaps we are too far down the development path for that, but it might be worth considering in future iterations.
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Good suggestion and I doubt we are too far down any development path (the reputation system in particular is severely underdeveloped).
One thing to keep in mind is that despite the scary red flag a downvote that doesn't drive rewards all the way to zero is just a function of reducing net upvotes (and net increase to reputation). It does not reduce reputation.
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This is what I've asked for repeatedly, but unless we get this I think the "flag" button should just be replaced by a "downvote" button. Since the change, this is how it actually works anyways.
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If they see "no value in it" they can move on, no?
For what it's worth @krnel your content is always well presented and interesting. Whether I fully understand, agree with it all or not. I appreciate what contributers like you bring to steemit.
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I will be flagging this later as disagreement over rewards if it continues to be highly rewarded when I check back before payout. I have no issue with being criticized but I do not believe that one of the biggest earners on the site whining about flagged once should be rewarded by even more rewards, especially when much of that is from autovotes.
EDIT: downvoted for the reasons stated
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EDIT: I didn't notice the positive change to flag rules, but I'm very glad it went through!
I no longer see much reason to complain about smooths flag. My only wish for now, is that we change the flag symbol to a downvote symbol.
Original comment:
I think it's good you make clear why you are downvoting, but by using the "flag" you are also in this case abusing it. The rules for flagging are made clear every time you vote.
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I think many agree with you but are afraid to stand with you because they think the voting trails dolphins will stop voting for them.
We all have an opinion but aren't able to share it sometimes.
So thanks for doing something.
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I disagree in general with flagging for reducing rewards (not for this post)... it should be done more elegant as I explained ^^^ (actually I thing it's an elegant solution)
But I like what you do, knowing that your intentions are to make steemit a better place... It is better experimenting early on with the tools the platform gives us... That way we will fix many things that could harm us in future... @krnel don't take it personal it is obvious @smooth has good intentions and I am sure this debate will bring good results!
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Lol good thing.
I cant stand the crybabies out there with "timeless" content.
Then he goes off with a speach about arrogance. Call it how you see it...
Pathetic.
Dude obviously likes the smell of his own crap
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... and flagged because this post should not ask for rewards... just attention from the community (that's why decline rewards exist as an option before submitting the post)
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I would feel bad if I had more reputation than @krnel and I would harm his reputation!
The current system must change for sure!
I insist on my previous idea!
https://steemit.com/knowledge/@krnel/is-this-quality-knowledge-i-put-out-not-helpful-to-steemit-flagged-for-quality-getting-rewarded#@liondani/re-smooth-re-liberosist-re-krnel-is-this-quality-knowledge-i-put-out-not-helpful-to-steemit-flagged-for-quality-getting-rewarded-20170115t124745501z
Both options should be available and when downvoting (not flagging) the reputation algorithm should not be used !
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Even if you did have higher reputation, downvoting something which has upvotes does not harm reputation (ignoring unimportant edge cases) as long as the remaining reward does not go below zero. It merely reduces the degree by which the post or comment will further increase reputation.
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That is good/fair! I thought other wise....
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I am consistently blown away by your work @krnel. Please, do continue.
I visited smooth's profile, and all I could think, the whole time was "this is not the type of content that will help steemit attract, retain, or grow a user base". Having 2.6 million steem power and an opinion that smells like a butt, doesn't even remotely look like value to me.
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VERY WELL SAID
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The quote part was said by smooth. I try to be as eloquent as I can, but I can't take credit for that.
Thank you.
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This was the part I had to commend. Those with most SP have the greatest responsibility to recognise the bias in their opinions.
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I could not agree more. The post that's value was "redistributed" has, now, 453 upvotes and one "redistribution" vote from someone with too much power and not enough to do. Why do the opinions of 453 people not matter as much as one person who woke up on the wrong side of the bed?
Thank you for your support.
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453 "votes" are not "people". The vast majority of those are bots, trails, people with multiple accounts and other forms of autovoting.
In any case, this system is based on amount of stake voting, not number people voting (I have suggested, repeatedly, that the vote count be removed from the display as it is at best highly misleading as I explained in the previous paragraph). Anyone can buy, or earn, more votes if they like.
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justify your actions any way you like to make yourself feel better. You are not fooling me.
can you prove "The vast majority of those are bots, trails, people with multiple accounts and other forms of autovoting."? if so, please do.
if you are so determined to redistribute rewards, then why don't you give away some of your steem power that you obviously didn't earn here. your blog is a shambles, with no valuable content in sight.
i've stood up for you before. i cannot countenance this abuse.
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EDIT: I didn't notice the positive change to flag rules, but I'm very glad it went through! ^^
Original comment: Agree or disagree with Smooths decision, but this is what subjective valuation can look like on the platform. Someone is gonna get their preferential toes stepped on.
It's also why the flag should be removed from Steemit.com; Because hardly anyone uses it as a flag.
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It's no real change in rules. what Rules? All it is, is justification for people with an attitude who add no valuable content to the platform to do whatever they want and still pretend to be good people.
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To most users, there would clearly seem to have been a change in the rules on Steemit.com (not the Steem blockchain) that told users for what the "flag" (not labeled or displayed as an ordinary downvote) "should" be used.
When clicking on the flag, the confirmation page used to read;
"The flag should be used for the following:
Fraud or Plagiarism
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling
Intentional miscategorized content or Spam"
Now, you say that
"All it is, is justification for people with an attitude who add no valuable content to the platform to do whatever they want and still pretend to be good people."
I don't think we should have needed a change at all, but clearly in this case (with even dantheman downvoting to change payouts) we needed it.
From here on we should ofc still continue discussing what the downvote and maybe even a separate flag should and could be used for. But this is a start to clean up on Steemit.com, in order to be less confusing and more attractive to outsiders.
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This: "The flag should be used for the following:
Fraud or Plagiarism
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling
Intentional miscategorized content or Spam"
is no change. It is the same as it has been. Where is the part about one person taking away the reward garnered from hundreds of votes because of their self important opinion?
Reiterating an opinion often, does not make it fact.
I, personally, haven't talked to "most" people on Steemit, and don't know what they think. Indeed, how many is "most" people on Steemit? A very few, influential people on Steemit have expressed opinions geared toward justifying their use of the flag at a whim, but no changes have "gone through". Gone through what? The flag is confusing because it is only one action that unduly penalizes people when abused by people with too much power and not enough sense. Adding more reasons to use the flag will not make it less confusing.
Whose job is it to "clean up Steemit"? Batman (the rich guy), the Sheriff (the moral guy, who gets paid to)? Making Steemit the best we can falls to all of us to do, otherwise it will be just another den of oppression, and no one will want to be here.
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The part I quoted and since you quoted, is what was before.
Now it instead reads;
"Flagging a post can remove rewards and make this material less visible. Some common reasons to flag:
Disagreement on rewards
Fraud or Plagiarism
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling
Intentional miscategorized content or Spam"
I agree that the flag is confusing. That's why I've opposed using it for simple disagreements at all up until now that the rules were changed.
Let's at least agree that the flag symbol should be removed.
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If this is true then I must intensify my search for a better platform to which to add my efforts. If people with millions of steem power want to redistribute rewards, let them give minnows some of their steem.
Taking it from others, who have garnered hundreds of votes from the aggregate of steemians, is not adding valuable content. It is presuming to speak for others.
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To some extent I agree with you here. It is not optimal. Far from it.
That's why I've made several comments in the past about some (in my own opinion) clever ways to improve on the system.
In the beginning I got no attention, then all of a sudden everyone wanted to flag everyone against the old guidelines in the name of "fairer distribution" and now it seems I'm one of the first to adapt to this change. (sometimes I'm happy I never put in much money; it let's me be much calmer, colder and somewhat detatched when everyone else is running around screeming)
What we really need are some sharp changes to the platforms scaling of payouts, in my opinion. Accompanied by better onboarding, by rewarding the voters on the introduction posts of those particular users that later go on to become successfull bloggers. That way we would have both a referal system and more people actively looking for good new writers, rather than just good or just new writers to gamble on.
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Curation (which includes voting in both directions), is considered a valuable contribution, arguably more valuable than the content itself (what good is content if there is nothing to sort the wheat from the chaff?) That's straight from the white paper.
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abuse
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After some reading I want to add, @smooth from the few interesting things I read in your blog, I wish you would actually take time to blog more... (no resteems, and with pictures this time please ... thank you! lol)
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smooth may not get a comment left under one of my comments. you left it's @ name, so maybe it will. just thought i'd let you know.
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Ah, I sort thought he would considering I used the @. Thanks for letting me know.
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There is no built-in notification feature for tags on the platform. Sometimes I run a bot that notifies me of mentions, but you can't count on that working in general.
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I had missed that. That's really good to know about. Thanks.
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I guess this is what they keep talking about things will work itself out and the consensus is that your content was rated as something not worthy of someone to take in the information you give whether they choose to or not. This shit is getting confusing. I'm about to bot it up and go winfrey. Everyone gets a vote. Don't need to see the information just everyone setup a bot and lets automate Steemit :P It's all a numbers game.
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Lmao.. meanwhile I'll hand out "you're a dick" comments like Oprah, when i see em.
@smooth i kinda see where your intention is but I still don't fully understand... especially now that your going to be, literally hovering over krnel just to watch his earnings on a post that he put some work into.
You flagged already and made an example of him... if you continue.. you are only giving an example of what is to be and that is not promising
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I'm not and never have been hovering over anything or anyone. I never claimed to be a full time curator. That is not how I approach things. If something catches my eye as being rewarded too little or too much relative to my own subjective views of what is best, I may vote on it, either up or down. Whether it is @krnel or anyone else. Simple as that.
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I read your comment out of context.
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I know I'm due for one. Are the keys to it under my chair? I thought smooth was trying to help Steemit. When did smooth become a control freak who wants to deprive other steemians of their voice?
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That downvoting the voters is getting old.
If the voters vote it then obviously they support it.
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There was a time when bringing subjects slightly beyond the comprehension of most was seen as a good thing; as improving.
Now it seems that anything difficult is chastised as 'elitist' or 'other' or not 'inclusive' enough.
If there's no place for intelligence or those aspiring to cultivate it on Steemit then the platform is worthless as anything other than a cash cow.
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Some people "get it", and some people don't. Quality matters. Thank you for the feedback. Steemit will be worthless to those who actually care for things beyond money, popularity and quantity of users to make something successful.
I would have resteemed if we could resteem comments lol. I tried again to make sure, but yeah it still gives me the error.
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This is why I disagree with the flagging system, and why it should only be used to negate abuse, not to simply disagree with something. That's just dumb.
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interesting theory. Now, define abuse.
I personally do not agree with @smooth's assesment of this content, but if we take it as a given that this content takes an amount of money inconsistent with its value from the reward pool, then it is, in fact, abuse. no other meaningful definition is possible without creating a "steem tos".
Even things like plagarism and spam are only "abuse" because people started downvoting them at one point.
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Abuse is anything that literally, not figuratively, devalues the platform. Plagiarism and spam are such. Copyright for instance, is a legal grey area which puts the platform and its users at risk. I think those types of abuse are worthy of being flagged. The same with content regarding physical abuse or malevolence against innocents.
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I disagree. why should your opinion be any more valuable than mine? Copyright infringement, like all forms of abuse, is only abuse per quod.
For example, in late july one poster had this to say about whether copyright infringement is abuse and should be downvoted:
The problem is that the term "abuse" deceptively implies the existence of a set of objective standards. Normally, on platforms different from steem those objective standard are based upon compliance or noncompliance with the site TOS, but there is no TOS here. We make the rules by upvoting content we think is paid less than its value warrants and downvoting content that we think is paid more than its value warrants. We make our own rules and to do that, users need both an upvote and a downvote.
On a site like facebook or twitter a flag means that you broke an objective set of site policies about what content is acceptable. A downvote on steem can never mean that.
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^^THIS is an excellent comment IMHO
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And, the value of said content is relative to whatever a person values it as. If they vote on it and decide it's worth their entire weight in the reward pool, then so be it. The same goes for someone like @smooth that believes it's worth less, however as I said, I just feel like negating someone else's rewards because you disagree with the content's value, is somewhat violent in nature; passive aggression. Myself for example, when I dislike content I ignore it. Doesn't bother me if someone gets rewarded heavily from a large stake holder. I'm not giving them my vote, and that's what counts to me, my individual vote. I shouldn't be concerned with another persons vote.
It's a mundane argument. Value is subjective, and trying to dictate that value is malevolent, like a dictator.
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Those downvoting are not "dictating" value any more (or less) than those upvoting are.
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The only possible "abuse" is the one that goes against rules laid out by the platform. As the guidelines for flagging were changed, I recognize no abuse at the moment.
This is not to suggest there can't still be "harmful" behaviours, even if it isn't objectively "abuse" according to platform TOS.
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there are no rules laid out by the platform. Steemit is not steem.
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I think you agree? The combination of Steem and Steemit was what I labeled the platform in this case. There were rules for flagging on Steemit, but they have now been widened to include any possible reason and since they are not called rules... there are no longer any rules and the "flag" can hardly be called a flag anymore. - It is once again a downvote.
What should happen now, is that we remove the "flag" icon and replace it with a "downvote" button, "thumbs down" or similar.
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I can't reply to your last comment, so I'll respond here.
Sorry to paraphrase. But that is exactly what I mean by subjective, you say so yourself, and as such you're taking it upon your self to speak for the whole. Who gives any one person the right to speak for every one? Beside that, who's to say that wont bring many people to Steemit?
These attitudes, where we think we know what's best, is off-putting. Seeing people dictate what is valuable and what isn't, oppresses people from expressing their own unique and individual opinions, especially when they have to fear getting downvoted just because someone disagrees with how much some one else's opinion is worth. I fucking hate green day, but I'm not going to downvote you because I think it's lame and would've probably bullied you in high school for listening to them. Instead I'll ignore that you like green day, the people who do like green day will like your post about green day, you'll get that one reward for posting about green day, and we'll move on.
Sorry if I sound like a rude prick, but I really dislike it when someone suggests something is best for everyone. Perhaps I should downvote yours and Smooth's comments because I disagree with them and think the opinions you're expressing devlue our community? Of course I wouldn't, because that would show aggression, passive aggression that devalues the community. See what I'm getting at?
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I agree with that perspective, however I disagree with your belief that constitutes aggression. It is simply voicing your opinion on what type of content you want to see here. Others doing the same in aggregate form what "the platform" collectively encourages or discourages.
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I agree with that, but how can you avoid flags being used for simple disagreement when anyone can flag? There are many people who are simply slaves to their emotions and react without thinking.
If there were a way that flags were only used to combat abuse it would be better, but the problem with that is a) what constitutes abuse and b) who is allowed to define that or have the power to flag?
The problem is that most people aren't self aware enough to realize when their emotions are in the way of their rationality. I know, it happens to me sometimes.
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Good points. You can't really define abuse, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that there needs to be a medium. We should be able to disagree with content, without the need to come off aggressive when disagreeing. A simple dislike button would cure this flagging disease we see spreading through the ranks.
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There was another very well written and rather detailed post concerning the need for a way to cast negative feedback on articles (and comments if I'm not mistaken). I don't recall if it was @dantheman or someone else off the top of my head but it influenced my thinking favorably. It made a strong case for balanced feedback.
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Probably @bitcoindoom
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The people who designed, developed, and develop this system disagree with you. They have now expressed that by incorporating "disagreement over rewards" into the flag dialog.
It is a gray area, but I do believe that the voting on these posts is essentially a form of abuse. Much of the voting power has decided to vote on these long form posts in order to generate curation rewards (including to use in funding voting guild businesses) because there is an expectation that "quality" and the reputation of the author is a free ride when it comes to the risk of being downvoted. They are incorrect.
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But value is subjective; if someone likes something, they're going to like it as a token of their appreciation. Disliking something, I guess, is the same. I just feel that showing your disapproval through negating said tokens is a violent act. Not intentionally violent, but indeed violent in nature, as you're suppressing someone else's subjective appreciation.
You are right though, and it does fly both ways, I just feel there should be a medium for people to show that they disapprove of something, as such a dislike button. It would improve metrics, transparency, and overall consensus.
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Its a good point about metrics.... the rest of it, the way to indicate that you don't like something without effecting rewards is to post a comment saying "this is fucking stupid"
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No one is negating, we're all just expressing views. As I asked in another reply, if I downvote and then someone upvotes after me, are they negating my downvote (or my opinion)? I don't think so.
Perhaps it would help to understand (if you don't already; I'm not sure) that upvotes and downvotes/flags are equal and opposite. If two people with the same SP vote on a post, one up and one down, the effect is to not change the reward at all. We're all entitled to our views on what is the best approach to use our own vote power.
I agree that the flag icon is bad and misleading. I'd love to see it put back to having symmetric up and downvote buttons, since that's how the system actually works.
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I understand, I just feel, that there should be a downvote button that doesn't negate rewards, and is simply there to show people that their content isn't valued the same by every one. Although upvotes/flags are equal to one and other, they're not seen in the same respect. One is negative and one is positive. Any negative act you take upon someone, even out of kindness, can be considered violent. When you're negating someone's rewards, then it's evidently violent.
Not to sound condescending, but do you understand how people powerless to tip the scales, might feel in that situation?
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Putting so much emphazis on "feeling" as if though it was a thought, in general makes me less inclined to read comments. However I do see what you mean by doesn't "negate" and perhaps that could be one use of the downvote. On the other hand, I might suggest it should be the other way around.
Maybe the downvote should adjust payout as is done today, but the flag should have no monetary value attached to it.
That way, payments could be adjusted with regular votes and the flag could be kept as a separate mechanism (just to show if someone thought it was simple spam/harrasment) as there would not be the same incentive to flag simply in order to bring down the payments of others.
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"It is a gray area, but I do believe that the voting on these posts is essentially a form of abuse."
This is where I have to disagree. Unless the platform says it's abuse, it is not. You may find it harmful to the platform or it's users, but that's still not to say it should be labeled "abuse".
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"The platform" says it is "abuse" when the stakeholders do, and only then. There is no central authority defining these rules.
Anyway, I don't think the label is that important.
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Well, I separated the terms "platform" and "users" to narrow it down to the combination of the data made visible from the blockchain and on the most promoted user interface/website.
I don't consider myself, users in general or any stakeholder for that matter, to be a rigid part of that particular "platform".
Also, I used the word "says" in the same way as "the book cover say x". Not to suggest that anyone in particular was actually saying it anew right now.
I think that the labeling is actually more important than it may seem at first.
For example, it would seem here that if I voted for this post you would consider my behaviour abuse of the "platform" (your previously used definition). This would be even though I make hardly anything from it and am not associated with any guild or other form of organized voting. Just for thinking that this is good content and you seeing it as bad content, you would have termed this abuse, no?
I may dislike the content and consider it a "poor" use, but I wouldn't consider it "abuse" unless it actually directly and clearly violated a stated current goal of the developers of the platform (my definition).
Maybe you don't mean the same thing when you use a word such as "abuse" and this could be the cause of a lot of confusion.
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Good feedback. I do strive to minimize confusion. Thanks.
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@smooth doesn't know what they are talking about. The knowledge of Trivium is HIGHLY valuable and if it was flagged as being the contrary, said user must have no comprehension of what it means. Why not pick on posts with silly cat pictures or something?
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Cat pictures more than likely bring more value to stakeholders (which is all I care about), because they have a wider appeal to grow the user base. Content by itself does not bring value to stakeholders at all, as stakeholders don't own it and it isn't monetizable by any readily available method. It does add some element of brand equity, but that is limited and secondary to the primary imperative of expanding the user base. Content is nothing more than a means to an end. It must be evaluated based on its utility in achieving the end and not necessarily proportionate with its word count, vocabulary, or intellectual appeal.
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No one should ever say anything that the collective disagrees with!
Dissent is punishable by exile!
Comply, or be outcast.
And definitely don't be sharing any of your unique individual views and ideas with members of your community who are interested in it, because that will surely never help build Steem's user base. Quit thinking so much and putting such time and effort into your work, and crank out some mindless drivel that will sell, why doncha?
;)
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or don't crank out anything at all like smooth doesn't. one look at it's profile and anyone can see it has never posted anything of value. running around with immense flagging power, pissing on things is not value. Am I right? Mindless drivel is worth even more to someone than nothing except piss.
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Self-government is all about contracts and rules. If there is no contract or at least way of ruling, there is minimum to expect in terms of being able to dissent.
If others want to "discriminate" and not hang out with you or anyone else, they should have the option not to and to bare the consequenses of personal responsibility. The same applies to you. That's freedom of association 101 and you can't have free speech without it.
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Sad. :(
I've been in many "it's just a downvote on the blockchain" discussions (though I still personally see it as an abuse flag) and what I still don't like about that position is it implies, "Community, your opinion is wrong, and you are mistaken about rewards and value. It's up to me to correct you for your own good." That attitude seems presumptuous and arrogant.
But it could also be that I'm just stupid (as is the community) and the person doing the flagging is right. How are we to know without a time machine?
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If people upvote after I downvote are they stating that my opinion is wrong and it is up to them to correct me for my own good? I don't think so, in either case.
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No. We would be correcting you for our own good. In fact, I normally don't upvote anything on the trending page but when I saw your flag and the amount of views on the post I did want to correct you by upvoting the post.
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Maybe it's as simple as this: You can spread negativity or positivity. I get your argument that you can't realistically upvote every other post available for payout so you'd rather downvote, but I still see it as spreading negativity. I'd prefer we each promote what we like and move on when others promote things in ways we disagree with. As was told to Thumper: "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."
A downvote / flag is psychologically discouraging for authors, especially when they've invested a lot of time and effort into their content. You say you want to grow the platform, but discouraging authors is not the way to do that. Potential new authors will see the negativity and bickering and flagging and think, "Why would I subject myself to that psychologically negative environment? I'm already fragile enough as it is." (I know some authors).
Humans are not emotionless machines. We interpret intentions in funky ways (loss aversion, etc). As a social platform, we should do our best to recognize that and act accordingly. I think the flag is appropriate as it recognizes that reality while still providing a mechanism to prevent community-accepted abuse. A downvote? Well, that's different to me. As it stands, it seems the community sees your downvote in this case as a negative action.
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It is good to approach things as simply as possible, but no more simply than that.[ref]
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@smooth: thanks for clarifying. If and when those changes are made, I'll better appreciate your actions. It's possible you are taking one on the chin here for pushing a needed change the community isn't yet ready for. If that's the case, I hope your actions can be appreciated in time as a catalyst for improvements which would lead to them not being perceived as negatively as they are currently perceived.
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I don't think I get your meaning.
People continually see a flag (because that's what it is on the interface they use on steemit) in order to communicate a desire for lower payouts as a negative attack on them and/or their content. To not recognize this would be to not recognize the social norms of the community. It doesn't matter what the founders/whales say or do, what matters is how people who are flagged interpret that action. This goes back to my Thumper comment (I was making a Bambi reference there) along the lines of, "If it's not nice, don't do it." If you think flagging long form content with high rewards will somehow save Steemit or make it more popular, I guess I'm not seeing it. Seems to me to bring more negativity which will keep people away.
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My comment was a reference to the fact that there are multiple considerations and reducing it to a single one (positivity vs. negativity) is taking things too far. As you are probably aware I have been a champion of positivity as an effective approach to community-building for a long time, and I remain so, but this does not mean that it overrides everything else. There is an evolution of awareness of the need for downvoting as well as upvoting, as can be seen not only in the statements and actions of the founders and developers but also in the recent (and long considered and debated) change to add "disagreement on rewards" to the flagging UI.
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EDIT: I didn't notice the positive change to flag rules, but I'm very glad it went through! ^^
Original comment:
"I still personally see it as an abuse flag"
I do so too and so will most new users finding us here, because they go through Steemit.com.
That's why the flag should be removed from Steemit; Because hardly anyone uses it as a flag. Not even the founders of this platform.
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It's not a unanimous sentiment by the wider community - it's just a few opinions, translated as flags.
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Yes I was being sarcastic. Just think this makes it confusing on what type of content to post.
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Imaging if a "Flag" cost Steem Dollars. I can understand 'down voting' (though I've never participated this way) ... Just move on is my motto. To plant a flag is to make a "statement". (Ps. I've never flagged) Promoting cost SD's, anti-promotion "costs nothing". Just thinking, it's late and I have to 'stoke' the wood-stove. ~Peace All! (;
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It essentially does. When someone with my SP places a vote it consumes scarce voting power worth what could be a few dollars in curation rewards if used to upvote something else.
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I'm a little lost here haha! Sarcastic about?
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Sorry I thought u were replying to my comment :P
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Agree. That applies to upvotes and downvotes.
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If an average user had flagged it for rewards, it wouldn't have been bad, but when the whales abuse their power, in part just to make a point. It is kind of like being a victim of a drive by shooting. Sadly this platform is an excellent idea that just isn't growing.
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See my point about hiary dogballs above. Yes, it sucks that @smooth can remove a large part of the rewards of a post. Yes it sucks that @jamesc can give a large amount of rewards to a post (especially since that amount is taken from everyone else recieving rewards.). The huge disparity between the early miners and the average userbase is one of the worst qualities of steemit (and this is an opinion that i expect many whales would agree with)
I don't agree at all with @smooth 's particular take here. In fact, i think @kernl is one of the better posters on the platform. But at the end of the day, the existance of whales and the huge disparity between the biggest actors and everyone else on the platform has benefitted kernl, not harmed him. Even in determining the payout for this post smooth downvoted, kenrl gained more from the @jamesc upvote than he did from the smooth downvote. This disparity in power between the largest users and the average made the payout to this particular post higher, not lower.
There are exceptions, but on steem the people who are hurt most by the disparity in power between whales and the average user are the little guys who get no rewards or almost no rewards when they post because whale upvotes assign most of the rewards to other posters.
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Point well made.
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How many whales upvoted it? No real imbalance on that point.
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Yes, it is a whale's world isn't it. There is a saying.. "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". I know you said you aren't voting much, so I just want to thank you for signing in once in a while and flagging a user who is attempting to feel successful on the platform. Your strategy is brilliant.
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"Yes, it is a whale's world isn't it."
In terms of voting (both directions), yes. Singling out the whale influence in one direction while ignoring it in the other direction does not make things better, it makes it worse. In the extreme, perhaps whale votes would cancel each other out and the rewards would be determined by the wider user base. Does that sound like a bad thing?
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@smooth in the early days you were my favorite whale, I mentioned you in an article once, about how much you educated me with your blunt style on the decentralized blockchain. My first threat of a flag was delivered by @berniesanders for making a Moby Dick joke about Masteryoda being flagged by either Dan or Ned. (I can't remember) So, I have not focused on any one whale and their activities.
I have been here for 5 months. What I think would be great if the whales tried to diversify their voting more and either read content or pay someone who will instead of setting up bots that vote on the same ole crap every day. All the whales involved get to take responsibility for our declining users, stagnant price and grumpy community.
Since you seem to know exactly what end-users want, please do tell if you did any "Test Market Studies", or even a survey? Do you hold a marketing or business degree? How many successful internet companies have you worked with? Are you even an adult? These are rhetorical questions. To me you are just some fake name in a mostly fake community, and you "mined" your shares, giving you a lot of power. I find it very difficult to believe anyone besides a Crypto Trader would invest in this envirnment.
You came up with a really great idea recently, you were going to give a random vote each day. (This would have made someone's day) However, it was too much of a bother to tell anyone who won, or if and when and if you did it at all. ) After all, you have one of the biggest reasons to care (your stake). Just a thought, why don't you see if there is anything you can do to improve user experience instead of acting like a whale of a bully and showing off your power?
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The random vote went away due to technical difficulties (the person who was helping me with hosting my bots gave up given the increased hassle and resource requirements from chainbase). I hope to bring it back in improved form and your suggestions are good.
Just a general reply to your earlier comments, what difference would it make if I were nothing but a crypto trader with no education nor relevant experience? Would that make my views any less relevant or potentially correct? Would my desire to increase the value of my investment by having the platform grow and succeed be any less sincere?
I never claimed to know what end users want. I have my views on what is value to the platform, and why, and what are the healthiest and most value-creating ways for rewards to be distributed. That includes thinking about what constitutes attractive markets and what does not, mechanisms for reaching and serving those markets, and finally whether or how doing so would bring value to stakeholders. In many ways I strongly suspect many of my views agree with yours (based on what you wrote). In other ways they may not. To the extent we agree on goals, perhaps we have some disagreements on how to get there. This is all reasonable and healthy.
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@smooth - Annoying nesting response.
Discussion is good, debate is good, and one thing I have always respected about you is your willingness to stay engaged in the conversation.
Regarding my slightly harsh comments about who you might be. I feel I went a bit too far. I am sorry. However, the reason it matters is there are industry standards that Internet companies do to gain users, revenue, and market share. They are not that hard, there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. I am not talking about copying another company completely, but there is something to be said about taking ideas from proven models that have proven to be successful.
Thank you for engaging. I hope and wish you will pursue your idea of rewarding random or different users and use your stake to improve the user experience. You have the power to help users enjoy this site. For your success and mine, I hope you use it.
By the way, it is in my best interest that your investment makes your filthy rich. (We are all winning and losing together here)
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How many readers viewed it?!
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Not enough. The platform needs to vastly grow before any of this matters.
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EDIT: I didn't notice the positive change to flag rules, but I'm very glad it went through!
Original comment: This is the problem with flag wars. Encouraging a subjective use of the flag leads to further abuse.
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I wonder if it could be done, that if the community could scrape together, say, 1000 votes we could toss anyone, no matter their steem power, out on their ear. I'm not firm on the 1000, I'm just floating an idea. Any thoughts?
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tack
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resteemed to give the community the chance to make a debate about how flagging , downvote should work...
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I read what you said before, that this post shouldn't get a reward so you flagged it. So bringing up issues, showing behavior someone does on the platform, shouldn't be rewarded at all? What are your requirements for a post declining payout?
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Actually I am confused.... Have not the answer right now... Just trying to figure out what will work better for the good of all of us...
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Why would you flag something you obviously think is a very good point, post and argument?
Lol
Not to mention resteem
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What if I think it has a value of $50 and it sits already at $500 with a single whale vote and 10 views... I certainly want that it gets more views but not more rewards...
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then resteem it, question and comment how and why you feel the way you do. Which is what you did... lol, sorry I just remembered what your original comment is in response to.
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The content wars rage on............
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Flagged as useless comment spam. This particular post is actually a good indication of why.
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I've tended to think that it filtered out good posts, but maybe in reality it's just me doing all the filtering and then fooling myself that @screenname did the same work as me...
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