Hey guys I wanted to open up some discussion about a topic that I get pretty heated about from time to time...
Yesterday I was taking a walk down Wall Street in Everett and I noticed a mob outside of the Wall Street Building with pickets. They were protesting about Donald Trump's tax plan. They stood their and bitched about how the rich are taxed at a lower percentage than the general population. So of course, they are calling for an increase in tax of the rich. They are calling for something to be done about the paradise papers. They are convinced that paying less taxes is an evil thing. I'm standing there in aw. Taxation is theft, we don't need to raise taxes to make things better, we need to lower taxes. 0.3% of my paycheck pays for the roads in my state. A 1% property tax (though I don't agree with it) pays for all of our schools and fire stations. And grown adults are actually standing here with signs acting as if federal income tax is totally legitimate. It's almost as if our income tax doesn't fund terrorist organizations and helps kill the innocent. RIGHT.
FEDERAL INCOME TAX IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FRAUDS PLACED ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE EVER.
I could go on and on about how I feel about taxes, but I really want to get your thoughts and opinions. What do you think of taxes? Could society survive without taxes? If so, how would we build roads? What about schools? Would we be more or less prosperous?
Let me know in the comments.
Thanks guys!
I usually engage in circle talk for a few minutes until they realize I’m making a moral and ethical argument against taxation. Once I get them to agree that is they own themselves and the product of their labor, it leaves very little room for the mental floor routines.
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What you are saying is valid. Sometimes you can bring people back to morals, but for some, it goes right over their heads. Why is it so hard to get people to understand they don't have any right to tell anyone else what to do?
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Unfortunately, your fighting decades of brainwashing. It makes our jobs of explaining things harder.
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Yes, I am involved in politics in my country and it is so hard to explain these things to people but we have amazing large libertarian community. So I hope future will be much better. There are lot of events. I think the biggest challenge is to compete with government because they teach all children to be socialist. In European Union they made recently even online game called Taxlandia from taxpayers money which teach kids to pay high taxes and that it is completely morally okay. It is just insane and horrible!
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Meanwhile, people were making themselves rich by taking the opportunity to make wealth.
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The tax code is intentionally written with "loopholes." It's written so that people that know about the tax code can avoid paying the taxes. Anybody can take advantage of these "loopholes" but not everyone does. Usually, the rich just have more financial education and are able to use the legal loopholes to their advantage.
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Which is why I prefer the FAIR Tax. Tax on consumption. The loophole is to buy used items or make it yourself.
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Usually you must have an uber successful business to take advantage, which is a feat. and no tax is fair. lol
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It is fair as in, everyone is charged the same amount. Whether you buy more or not, is up to the person. But, yes, in general, taxation isn't fair. At least with a national consumption tax, everyone sees it up front on the purchase receipt.
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These people were all 40-60 too. And it was 1:30 in the afternoon. They don't want to make anything for themselves, they just want to take what they haven't earned.
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I'm sure we could come up with a better way to do things that doesn't require the threat of violence to steal our money... We need to outcompete the government so that it is no longer necessary for them to steal our money. Someday we might get there...
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someday might eventually thanks to the blockchain! it allows us to unite peer to peer without a real third party.
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I don't mind paying a tax if it's helping my community. I mean, I like to live in a decent looking neighborhood with nice sidewalks, roads, and parks. But being taxed for international problems or to solve issues that someone else started doesn't make sense. It's like I used my credit card to buy a TV on black friday but then I charge my family a tax so that I can pay for the TV. SMH... That's totally theft.
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I looked at my pay stub, and my state only takes 0.3% of my check to pay for roads and things. I will gladly pay that for roads. It's the Income tax I have a huge issue with. Once the free market starts building schools that are better than public schools (which wouldn't be hard at all) we eventually won't even need property tax. Why the hell would I put my money for my community through a government filter rather than just paying third parties directly? Governments don't even usually build roads, they will contract it out and pocket the profit.
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It's crazy to think that the government actually takes their cut from an employee's check before the employee even receives the check. We have to break out of the system and take ownership of our money.
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That's called tax evasion. And it's a crime. It's sad living in a world where taking ownership of what is yours is considered a felony.
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Taxation is Extortion, simple as that.
The Government is God and I am Lucifer
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"Taxation is theft" would only be valid if what the ruler takes actually belonged to the serfs in the first place. What in this world do you actually own to disburse it to your design? How do you determine ownership? Since no man has created this planet, buried the minerals under the earth, quicken the vast biome, or produced water and air, which he takes for granted, no man can actually claim ownership.
The only possible conception of ownership within this planet derives from use of force to extract, extort, and enforce claims made unto a world that man has no part in creating. The arbitrary property and individual rights exist only because of legal framework established by those "evil" rulers and enforced by the "thieving" 'gubermint. Without your overlords, the serfs would "own" nothing. Render unto Caesar.
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I, and many others believe, that every person owns themselves. On top of that, they own what they create. When you give your labor to another individual, you give them value. Since you have given them value, and we are free voluntary people after all, it is fair to say that both parties should benefit. In a capitalist economy this is done through exchanging monies. So in turn, this money comes from the value created by you, or it is property of another person given to you, which makes it your property. Everything that you earn by exchanging the value created by your own personal being, is now yours and can be used for your survival. When someone takes what is yours from you, this is theft. If I approached you and took the shirt off of your back for my own gain against your will, would it not be theft? Would I not be forcing you into something that you had no desire of? Is forcing another human being to do anything ethical? If I have $100 to feed my family for the month, does my family not come first? By all means, we should be helping people as much as we can. Prosperity can be multiplied into more prosperity. When the government take $100 from me, they are potentially taking $10,000 from me in the future. Imagine how many people I could have helped with that $10,000!
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Why do you believe such, based on what a priori supposition? Prior to the blood orgies of the French Revolution, such a concept did not exist. The French National Constituent Assembly merely voted a wish list of "rights" into existence after revolting against their rightful lord and master. Even the infamous Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen does not stipulate unrestricted rights unto an individual absent the assent of the commonwealth and her interests.
And who will define such actions as theft or otherwise? By what authority and enforcement would the afflicted party address in righting a perceived wrong? Is it not to the state or to their overlords who provide legislative and judicial avenues to redress such grievances? If the overlord provides for the guarantee of "property rights," then is it not rational to conceptualize that in the absence of such overlords, there will be no "guarantee" to property, thus, the concept of property rights itself is arbitrary? We all serve masters, give credit where it is due, dues when it is demanded.
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Long ago man was sovereign. It wasn't until those with power stepped in. The only master that man had was the earth. It was their responsibility to take care of their environment, so that their environment would take care of them. You believe in a system that tells you how to live, I believe in no system. Man has the ability to organize freely, but no right to organize to control others. I don't care what any law says or what any intellectual says about my rights. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You can choose how to live your life, I can choose how to live mine. We don't need legislation to determine what our rights are.
Think about this: the model we use today causes issues in our lives, then gives us solutions to solve them (at a fee) then we are expected to be thankful. You want to know who would call me stealing your shirt theft? everyone there including yourself. You think humans are so incapable of acting freely under their own will? as if they need some governing force to tell them how to live and how to think. There is no guarantee with anything in life and government won't change that. You don't need a government to know what's yours and what's your neighbors. That is a foolish statement. Sure, someone could come and steal your property, but they can do that today. Just because we have a police force provided by public funds to enforce our rights, doesn't mean we couldn't organize a private security force to ensure our safety for a bargain of a price.
You're very intellectual and I see where you're coming from. But, can't you see that the possibilities for solutions are endless? Government holds back our evolution as a society and it's sole responsibility is to ensure that no significant change takes place.
The only master of mine is the good Lord. Thanks.
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When was this? Which epoch of human existence did individual man own himself? All of man's social existence have been hierarchal in nature with rulers and serfs, from the smallest tribal unit to the grandest of empires. The only places in human existence where man "organizes freely" are the libertarian paradises of Somalia, Syria, Libya, and similar failed societies where the petulant serfs revolted against established authorities.
Without hierarchal social organization, all man is capable of creating are chaos, misery, destruction, and death. Only the will of the ruling class forged the chaotic masses into some semblance of order, meaning, security, and prosperity. The 100,000 severed limbs of Syrian children bear mute witnesses to the folly of those who proclaim "rights" and "freedom" in revolt against their station and established social hierarchy. For millions of Syrians, tyranny under Assad would be infinitely preferable to the current freedoms so enjoyed by those still subsisting amidst the ruins of a polity once known as Syria.
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Man was sovereign before he was controlled, thus there would be no documentation. Yes bad things have happened. But sometimes great change comes from terrible tragedies, not to say that children dying is anything that anyone wants. Man is inherently flawed, but saying that governments prevent mans evils is false. And saying that they don't magnify that evil is even more of a falicy.
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