What your bank is not telling you about your cash deposits and withdrawals.

in money •  8 years ago 

I'm sure you have heard that if you deposit or withdrawal more than $10,000 in a day, you will have to fill out a CTR, "currency transaction report". This well known and something all banks must comply with. This CTR is filed with FinCen or the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network which is a bureau of the United States Department of Treasury. They're simply looking for money laundering and financial crimes. If you are on the up and up, you are fine. Do your transaction over $10,000 and don't give the bank a hard time. Doing a CTR is not a bad thing. Banks do thousands of them a day. If a CTR is required you will know about it because they have to ask you questions. But there is a side most banking customers don't know or truly understand. Something that can have even more of an impact on you and your family. That would be a SAR, "suspicious activity report". When your bank files a SAR, you will not know about it. This is where it can get tricky.
The banks and government know that most customers are aware of of the $10,000 rule for doing a CTR. This has been a game with those trying to dodge any reporting in hopes of not getting flagged for the governments enjoyment. Many customers will bring their cash deposits, or withdrawals to just under the threshold of $10,000 believing they will go under the radar for reporting. Some will drop their deposit/withdrawal to $5,000 or maybe $4,000. That may work and go undetected a few times, but the tellers are trained to catch on to these types of transactions. When a customer is suspected of structuring their transactions to avoid reporting, they will get a SAR placed on their account. This SAR will impact all owners of that account even if it's you that's doing the naughty. Your spouse, parents, siblings, friends on that account? It doesn't matter. When you hear of someone that says "My bank closed my accounts for no reason", just remember that's probably why the account was closed. Banks don't close accounts for no reason.
Just a few years back, the banks were so behind on processing any SAR completed on a customer that when a teller would complete a SAR, it could take months for compliance to review the information. Tellers were told to only do the SAR once rather than every time the customer does something the teller feels is sketchy. Now days, compliance for all big banks have been ramped up and tellers have been given the green light to SAR every time they feel it's deserved. During the last financial crisis of 2008, banks where caught with their pants down on many things around compliance. Have they fixed their bigger problems? Of course not, but they still can make sure the typical customer is regulated.
Does having a SAR placed on your account mean your accounts will be closed and possibly reported? No, but it can lead to more monitoring by the bank which could lead up to closing your relationship.
With over 20 years experience in banking, here's my advice. Banks are in the business of making money. They don't want to report or close your accounts. They just want customers that will not put their bank in a compliance nightmare. If you need to withdrawal or deposit more than $10,000 in cash and you are not committing a crime, just do it. It's better to get the CTR out of the way than have the bank employees report your behaviors when you are simply taking care of buiness.
This is my first post. Hope it was worth the read. Thanks

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@silverbug2000 This is good info, structuring transactions is illegal and even Politicians are going to jail for it.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-cubs-marc-hamid-skybox-trial-0723-met-20160722-story.html

However there is no such thing as a SAR placed on your account, or at least there shouldn't be.

Once the teller fills out the SAR it is sent to FinCEN. It is up to FinCEN to decide what to do, but no teller is ever supposed to know about any sort of SAR or other activity once the form is complete.

It's not supposed to be on or in or anywhere near the account. Even a branch manager should not have access to these things. It's essentially an affidavit from the teller to the feds. If you know of a bank that is recording these things anywhere in a customer record, you need to contact FinCEN right away.

You have to understand that the reason for a SAR is to prevent collusion between people in a local bank branch, and drug dealers, gangsters, etc. If a branch manager or teller has access to these then any sort of relationship could totally spoil an investigation.

Easiest way to avoid a SAR is to not keep your money in a bank in the USA.
Now days there isn't any valid reason for you to be keeping enough funds in a bank in the USA that a SAR or a CTR would ever apply to you.

There are stable blockchain backed crypto currencies such as bitUSD, SBD(currently trying to stabilize) and Tether and with just a few minutes of planning you can load these directly onto debit cards for spending on an as needed basis. Otherwise just let the blockchain be your bank.

Oh one more thing. You are far more likely to be derisked than to be closed for too many SARs. With your account open and the tellers happily filling out SARs it provides visibility to the feds as to what you're doing. They want you to keep banking this way.

Banks however need to balance risk and so if you're an ex-pat or have family, friends or relatives on the SDN list, or you happen to take a vacation to some country the USA doesn't like. You can be derisked and find yourself completely stranded with no money and no recourse and no ability to do anything about it.
http://www.americanbanker.com/news/bank-technology/lexisnexis-elliptic-want-to-make-bitcoin-safe-for-banks-1090573-1.html

If anyone is interested in hearing more about blockchain banking, vote this up and I'll probably make a blog posting about it soon.

Thanks for the info @williambanks . I have been reading a lot of your posts and comments lately. I like your research, transparency and commenting. You have a new follower in me!

@jacor , thanks! That really made my day!

Ok because the question got 42 upvotes, I realized I needed to make a couple of posts on the topic.
The first is a guide for people wanting to transition away from the banking system...
https://steemit.com/steemit/@williambanks/your-bank-is-an-anachronism

The second post will be coming in a few days and will be targeting anyone who runs a bank or finance company, sort of a 101 on how they can become useful to the world again.
@silverbug2000 I mentioned you in the article and gave a shout out of thanks! Want to say thanks again! I'm following you now.

What is the SDN list?

Darn good question...
As part of its enforcement efforts, OFAC publishes a list of individuals and companies owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of, targeted countries. It also lists individuals, groups, and entities, such as terrorists and narcotics traffickers designated under programs that are not country-specific. Collectively, such individuals and companies are called "Specially Designated Nationals" or "SDNs." Their assets are blocked and U.S. persons are generally prohibited from dealing with them.

Source...
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/SDN-List/Pages/default.aspx

Actual list (takes awhile to load because it's rather long)
https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads/sdnlist.txt

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

So it's actually an offence to transact with the people on this list? Punishable by law? Do you have to break the law to get on it? How do you get off it?

@wish Depends on the situation. As a normal business doing business, like say a grocery store. It's a non-issue. But if you deal in money or securities it is required that you report any and all transactions. You can "do business" with them, but you are not allowed to release funds or assets without approval of OFAC

You could probably put whistleblowers and Govt activists in that category as well.

@ajavajive Well we couldn't, but I'm sure the feds can & do.

This is why i dont trust banks and stock piling bitcoins and Ripple XRP

@dharmakirti
Uhhh Ripple probably isn't the best currency to hold if you're a cryptoanarchist. http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/seven-banks-kick-off-ripples-blockchain-network-including-santander-ubs-unicredit-90-more-1566894

They're all but wholly owned by Santander.

Thanks for sharing this information @williambanks. I could have gone into more detail on this post. Put this up on the fly just to see what would happen. Turns out this thing is for real. Thanks for sharing.

@silverbug2000 Glad I could help! Sorry for taking over your thread. Like I said you did a great job of warning people though! The dangers are real.

Several years back they turned us from Depositors into investors, meaning that when Deutsche Bank crashes and all the derivatives are exposed, FDIC will pay the banks first, then we the little people are left holding nothing. Did we really ever think they cared about us? Come on, Hitlery is going to re-install Glass Steagall even though all the damage is done. LMAO.

@derrick1974 I don't disagree with you on depositors into investors. However have you checked how our investment is doing lately? https://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/financial-stability/reports/Pages/TARP-Tracker.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program#Participants
It's pretty much been paid back according to that.

I'm not saying this was a good thing at all. However the taxpayers aren't on the hook for it anymore according to all the information I can find anywhere.

In the meantime the US Govt does own metric craptons of what amounts to convertible debentures in these orgs that the banks can either buy back at market rate, or the govt can sell on the open market which will convert those warrants and dilute the companies shares.

Nevertheless, hardly a penny ever went to it's intended purposes which was to allow people to refi their homes while the banks write off the losses into a prepaid sheet paid for by the US Taxpayer.

My investments? Hold on, let me go check Kitco. ;-)
Down $25, looks like they are in there pushing the paper, good thing I have physical. I only hold it just incase, my real investments are in home gardening and long term solutions. Can't eat gold and silver. . . .

And using Treasury.gov and Wikipedia, is almost as bad as using Snopes. Does anyone still believe anything they say? Rome is burning and Nero is out golfing again. . . . .

Well Treasury.gov was used because it would be considered a primary source by any definition of the word, They may spin stuff , but they don't tend to lie.
Wikipedia was chosen for accessibility of the information.

Also, yes your investment. If you live here, then it's your government that did this. If you voted for any of the people that pushed it through, then it was most definitely your investment. If your guy didn't make it that year, you need to ask yourself why. If you didn't vote, you have no right to complain.

Should definitely do that soon. I'm probably an outlier here as I'm not sold on the whole cryptocurrency idea but sounds like you know what you're talking about, so I'd look forward to learning about that.

Thank you ! Does this apply to credit unions too? I'm so glad you told me about this, I had no idea! I was actually going to withdrawal 10,000 soon for debt removal. If I do it online do I have to fill the Form?

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I hate to pimp someone elses post in yours, but this is a great post about fincen compliance and how its basically does nothing but hurts consumers

https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Frankly I am fed up with the banks.

From the assumption that all the customers are criminals to unnecessary invasions of privacy to acting as if the customer needs them more than they need the customer, it is about time that they turn to dust -- cryptocurrency will accelerate that process.

And they are even not that cool. Transfers take forever, the fees are horrible, they have the audacity to tell me what I can or cannot do with my money, they use outdated technology like SMS 2FA or silly, bulky hardware tokens (ever heard of FreeOTP?).. funny story about that, the last two tokens I got from a bank came with the battery already almost completely drained .. thanks guys, guess you could not afford a new battery ..

They have upped their game (sarcasm) in the past few years too, now I am paying account "maintenance fees" (maintenance? for what?) and even annuities for debit cards.

I have closed almost all of my previous bank accounts. Can't stand dealing with them.

We can do better with crypto.

A bank has no business telling the government anything about me, so , no, CTRs are not cool. SARs even more so. I didn't find out about CTRs until I tried to withdraw almost all of my money from the branch bank near my home about four years ago, but they didn't have that much cash on hand, so I lowered the amount and went to the main branch in town for the rest. I was really glad I withdrew that money, too. I still expect them to basically close my account at any time, so I keep a low balance in it.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

You're nothing to a bank. The only reason you would ever be a person of interest is if you do something really nasty or piss off someone in a position of power. The best security is blending in and just being like everyone else.

good info @silverbug2000 8]

Great first post!

Awesome! Thanks for the advice! I hope to some day be making that kind of money

My first post. I was surprised I got anything. My background is banking. Figured I would put something up I have some insight in. But I could have put more time into it. Next one I will. Hopefully I'm more than a one hit wonder. Ha. I bet you got some good posts in you. Just make it happen. Thanks for the comment.

Keep digging, read Creature from Jekyll Island: The History of the Fed, as @ademt recommended and research fraudulent mortgages. Mortgages are not what we think they are. Banks are not allowed to loan out their deposits so where do you think the funds for mortgages and loans comes from? It is created by the signature of the person taking the "loan". The banks have created a very clever plan to get everyone hooked on debt based money. Ken Dost of Oregon, and Anna von Reitz of Alaska can explain it much better than I can.

Excellent book. A must read.

Thans for sharing. Banks have been conscripted by the government to spy on their customers. It's a condition of their license to operate.

Banking is just another branch of guv'mnt... :(

Nice information @silverbug2000

Go unbanked and start using Crypto instead. Stack your Silver and Gold just in case the SHTF.

Precious metals all the way for me. Traditional banking only handles everyday bills for me. Thanks for the comment.

Read the book Creature from Jekyll Island: The History of the Fed

Excellent book. A must read for anyone that wants to be informed.

Give us the short version. Actually, summarize it in a post, I'm sure it'll be worth your time... in fact, if you can save me 8 hours of reading, that's technically worth at least $1000 for me just in extra time I can spend making money.

I can certainly understand the need for some regulation to keep track on nefarious activity by criminals, however the regulatory environment for the financial industry is ridiculous. I work for a brokerage firm and the regulation is insane. The regulations need to make sense, however sensible government regulation is an oxymoron. IMHO By the way great post!

It's surprising what banks do and get away with. I know on the brokerage side advisors are in fear of a simple e-mail with select words in it that can go on their permanent record as a complaint. Just a silly system we have. Thanks for commenting.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

This is one many reasons why any crypto is better than those measly banks.

I agree. Crypto is the way to go. There's little future in holding fiat dollars.

that is why volume for bitcoin is going up like crazy in Malaysia.

Bitcoin volume tends to peak at places with high inflation rates like Venezuela Malaysia and Japan. Uk's going to be next contender for a spike in volume.

Very interesting indeed, Thank you for sharing :)

Thank you. Appreciate that.

WOW!!!
This is another case of the government looking over your shoulder and controlling your life activities.
Central Banking (FED) with cooperation with government can and will make your life less free and more difficult any time they have a chance to do it.
The Big Club (FED and government) owes it ALL and you are NOT in the Big Club.
Peaceful Anarchy is the way to go.
Check https://www.dollarvigilante.com/

Big fan of Jeff. I found Steemit through him. Love it. Thanks for commenting.

Things they should teach in schools ! thx !

I agree.

Great share

Thank you for this information
I was not even aware of this.

👍nice post, interesting to read @silverbug2000

Thanks. Appreciate it.

I personally think its all a facade and the banks will always be strong

The CTR is compulsory due to prevent of money landing and other crimes. So it will not hard time for customer because if the funds are legal than they can provide proof .

Saludos desde Venezuela, espero ganar mucho dinero con esto.

This is good info. People can have their accounts frozen or closed, money stolen, and even go to jail from these type of events. I think having an alternative stash of bitcoins and other cyptocurrency and unbank yourself is also a good idea, just in case.

Thanks, I also think it's better just to tell them what you're doing and goals. Recently I went to another country to open a business account, but so far i've been rejected by two banks (not saying that they will reject me outright) but indirectly because of possibly their own issues. I walked into one bank and I saw the looks on their faces (oh no! not another foreigner...compliance) I am still stuck in limbo on that problem too. Anyway, I will just try a few other banks. Keep trying.

I think the banks trying to use money laundering as a means to involve themselves into financial transactions of thousands of dollars is, quite frankly, bullshit. It just is another loophole the government can use to bypass provisions in The Constitution.

I upvote U