"We have no thoughts of our own. All thoughts are implanted by the perpetual motion set into play from the beginning of creation. We are taught to believe that a thought can originate with us. It can't. The 3 dimensional system implants all our thoughts so that we then experience the reality we call life on earth, which is all suggestion, which most of us believe."
So.. What do you think? Do we have free will or no?
(I find the quote writers use of the term "which most of us believe" a bit ironic, BUT.. I think I'm familiar enough with the argument that I know what their response would be if I pointed that out. And it would probably have to do with their environment conditioning that belief into them, as opposed to it being a free will kind of thing.
I heard this argument again earlier when listening to a podcast YouTube show thingy.
It's definitely interesting to think about.. But.. I think it's impossible to prove while we're alive in these bodies/brains.
Our brains can only know so much in my opinion. There's limits, and questions like God and free will are ones I think we'll never know.
Thus the beauty and importance of freedom of religion/speech.
I personally choose to believe in free will because I prefer that option myself and think life would suck and be pointless if there was no free will and there was a "destiny" and it's all mapped out ahead of time.
I admit I can't prove it either way.. So.. I am open minded to both ideas.. I am open minded to the possibility that everything is a reaction to the environment in some kind of grandly orchestrated movie.
A GREAT metaphor for this in my opinion is the example of a lottery ball scenario where the balls that go into the machine or whatever and spin around are ultimately going to land where ever the are going to land.
So.. Even though we can't with our human minds predict how they will land, they are going to land the way they are going to land.
I guess theoretically you could say all of existence is like the lottery ball metaphor and that no matter what happens.. The balls are going to land where ever they are going to land.. Regardless of what we think about it.
Yet in light of all that in this case cause it's a weird area.. I choose to live my life like I do have free will.
I'm just not reminded of that Bill Hicks bit where he says "It's all just a ride"...
Maybe.. Maybe.. Maybe I am too invested in all this, that I want to believe I have some kind of effect, or that I could have some kind of effect.
But.. Maybe it is just a ride.. I can't say for sure.. But.. In this sense.. I wanna treat the "ride" as if I can "drive" and "steer"... Sounds like a better way of looking at it to me if you have the choice.
Maybe we just drive and steer freely, but limited to a pre-made infrastructure that in a sense limits us (maybe stopping us from destroying ourselves)
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Yeah maybe.. I would liken that to a sort of video game or a simulation or something like that. I'm open minded to that.
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Still kinda begs the question though.. Who is the "ME" that is playing the character in the game?
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I think it resumes of our limited view of things that we indeed are dependent of some sort of system.
The lottery ball - who created the machine, and the balls? Why were they designed and they did? The enviroemnt, gravity etc.
The same applies to the ride. The ride represents a system designed by someone for different uses buy limited in functionality to what it was created for. You can choose which road you take, but the road can be paved or not, there can be dangers and there are signs that advert us, you can decide going out of the road, though not gonna be a very good ride.
So yes, I BELIEVE in free will (intentionally highlighted) and I enjoy it, because I know I was designed like this with a purpose, and though I depend on a pre made structure I know I can freely take decisions within that structure and get to accomplish the purpose I was CREATED for.
The maze game: I know there is a beginning and an end. And there is a path between the two, within the maze as in life we take decisions in our directions, sometimes the wrong ones, but while some choose to just quit and not go forward, there are those who recognize their error, and go back to finding the right path. Ooh, how good is to make that journey with a GUIDE.
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About the video game/simulation I have no clue lol, it would be goo to have something like it if it helps to better understand these issues.
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I think confusion comes when free will and destiny defined as opposite of each other. They both co-exist if defined right, and yes we have free will. Just the fact we discussing it proof of that. However free will has its limits.
Consider a video game and you are the character in that game. You have a free will to choose where to go and what to do, as you do program determines your destiny.
This is deep, have a flower.
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Thanks for the comment, but I'm not sure you're understanding this the same way I am. I'm not even sure what kind of study you could devise to try to test your theory, so how can you say it so absolutely like that? I mean.. Just saying "We're having this conversation" is not proof. If you understand it from the viewpoint of people who believe in that theory they claim everything is a reaction of the environment, that means every single thought you ever thought you had was not your choice but a reaction from the environment.
The mathematical logic they have is pretty convincing. A lot more convincing that saying "We have free will cause we're talking right now".
I don't think you can so easily handwave away what they are saying and that's why I said it will probably never be able to be proved and remain in the world of philosophy and belief.. But.. If you think you can really prove it.. Feel free to try, you're just going to have to go a lot further than just saying "We're talking thus we have free will"
Blades of grass blow in the wind, that doesn't mean they are doing that of their own will. What if a human is just a really complex blade of grass blowing in the wind?
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haha, that is why I ended my comment saying this is deep. This topic is just like politics and religion, at the end everybody hold on to their position. I am not an expert on this, but I have heard both sides of the arguments.
If everything was reaction of the environment, wouldn't we see uniformity in the people from same environments? Sure environment does have great deal of impact on how people think, that has to do with how brain function. If you ask a brain scientist "what is the purpose of thinking?". They will say it is to stop thinking. Because brain consumes a lot of energy, it tries to resolve things efficiently, and get back on autopilot whenever possible. So we are on autopilot most of the time, that means you are shaped by your environment. However, as you start questioning things, studying, and learning you start forming your own position, hence choices you make are different.
Reason I say we have free will because we are discussing this topic is because that's what humans have been doing since the beginning of time. That creates choices, we take positions, there is no universal consensus. If we didn't have free will, everything would be instinctual and uni-formal. People would behave same way just like animals do. Animals' behavior is predictable, can you say same for humans?
This topic has to do a lot with consciousness and cognitive science. There are some interesting studying on this, but most of the time they decline to answer definitively about the free will, mainly because it is controversial subject.
I have heard so called "mathematical logic" arguments. Basically they hold deterministic position. In my opinion, it fails miserably.
Anyway, once again this is deep, and at the end everybody holds on to whatever makes sense to them and goes back to autopilot :) Good talking.
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Word. Thanks for the thoughtful back and forth.. I'd address a couple things real quick.
I don't see why that would be the case, reality wouldn't work in any sense if it was everything would blur together, the separation is a critical ingredient.
Really? Wow.. I get your point, but that just sounds silly.. The brain is meant to think, in my opinion.. Without it, we might as well be blades of grass. Heh.
I think you definitely could make the argument we are more complex animals and we are predictable to an extent as well. Perhaps totally by an alien or god force above us in sentience like we are above animals and plants.
Well.. To me, I liken it to that scene in the Matrix the second one with the Marvingian or whatever the name is.. He claims "Everything" is a reaction. And.. Mathematically.. I think that has some weight. I'm not sure you can 100% prove it at all, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.. But I also don't think that means they fail miserably. They are convincing and interesting concepts to think about..Maybe everything is a reaction, BUT.. that would almost imply there was one initial action, maybe you could call that the big bang or whatever.. Yet.. I think it makes an amount of sense, if you really think about it.. Though as I said.. Not 100%, yet still compelling!
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I think we have the ability to focus our attention on different sensations inside and outside our mind. That gives us the ability to choose our emotion. If we focus on sad things, we are sad. If we focus on happy things we are happy.
Emotions pretty much define our thoughts. Thoughts are more like falling dominoes. Very repetitive. Rarely original. They can make you feel like you have no free will. But you do. You can meditate, focus on nothing, for hours on end. Stop your thoughts dead on their tracks.
Sure brain may be like star ship enterprise, full of automatic systems we are not aware of. But I refuse to believe that I am not the captain. With ability to focus on different things. Why else would I feel it is a struggle to focus on things that help me instead of things that harm me. We are hardly coasting.
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Who is the "you" that is feeling the emotions and choosing these things?
If you're the captain, who are you? At the deepest level? And if you can't prove who you are and how you got here.. How can you say for sure whether you have free will or not?
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"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I completely agree with this, and so does Stoicism. Writing a journal is an undoubtedly positive step towards eudaemonia, helping you correct past mistakes in the future. However, by constantly seeking to improve yourself, which seems like a good thing (and I believe it is) aren't you are admitting that, currently, you are not good enough? This I believe could then lead to a lack of confidence in one's own abilities. This contradiction seems unnecessary, considering the Stoic would be considered unwavering and most confident in his/her abilities.
So how does the Stoic strike the balance or, just in general, approach this?
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Free will, yes we all have it, why? Did I finished reading this post? Yes, because I wanted to, not for any other reason :)
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How do you know you weren't programmed ahead of time to do that and everything else and you just have the illusion of free will? Like.. How do you really know? Just saying.. "I read a page" isn't quite enough. Who is the "you" that even read the page?
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This is too deep for 1030pm on a Sunday night haha.
These are all valid points, it just comes down to that some questions cannot be answered, everyone has their own feelings and opinions and either side cant be proven right or wrong. I don't spend much time trying to answer things that cant be! :)
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Yes we do that's why we are alive! Are we allowed to exercise it as freely? no! why? Because a lot of people tend to misuse it to cause harm to others, knowingly or unknowingly!
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I'm not sure I understand your response and reasoning.. We have the perception of being alive, thus that proves we have free will? Sort of like.. I think therefore I am? ...? That's not quite enough for me and many others.
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I doubt that you quite understand the whole notion of free will. Free will is will without implications, You want to eat you eat without asking, you want to sleep you sleep without asking, that's what free will is but a lot of people uses the same notion when it comes to let's say "I want to rob somebody" well you can't do that buddy. That's where free will becomes offensive and is taken away from you for good. Although that is also a part of "free" "will". I hope this clears your doubt, all the best!
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I'll give you the opportunity to enlighten me.
Wha....? That's hard to follow. "Will" implies implications. How can you try to separate the two like that? That someone could do anything they wanted without consequence? Is that what you mean? You think free will is the ability to do whatever you want without consequence or "implication"?
No.. I disagree here.
You're saying that free will all of a sudden magically is no longer free will when someone does something that infringes on the free will of others, but.. That's demonstratively false. People murder each other all the time and they don't lose their free will. Even if put in a prison, then they still have free will to walk around the cell and think and eat and sleep and etc etc.
You don't lose your free will just because you infringe on others, in fact it seems like the most powerful people in the world throughout history are the people who infringe on the rights of others the most. So like, the empirical and historical evidence is not on your side. All the best!
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This is how you make your comments look pretty lol and hope to engage some readers. There is no end to arguments and no doubt arguments can be won doesn't mean they are anything other than arguments. Those who understand they understand in one go but I will try to explain it once more. Let's say there's you then there's your cheating wife but it's her free will to sleep with whoever she want to then comes your freewill part and it hurts your freewill " 'cos logic" you wanted her never ever to sleep with any other person besides you(as long as in the relationship). That's where law kicks in and you file for a divorce and once you get what you wanted you feel much better. It doesn't mean your wife or you didn't have any freewill it simply means that law is a thing!
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Okay. I don't even understand why you're bringing that up. I was talking about free will, I dunno why you would be citing law, they aren't necessarily related.
I also get the feeling perhaps English isn't your primary language, so I'm not sure we're going to be able to get extremely technical here. No worries. All the best to you.
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Lmao, alright mate but thoughts have no language. It's just difference in perception, things might have looked a bit different and words only make things difficult. All I wanted to say is, freewill exists but at times part of freewill is not appropriate to exercise, that's where self-discipline comes in action. If failed, we have external forces like law. Hope, I finally made some sense lol? Have a good day!
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Thoughts have no language? Everything has a language to it, even nothing.. If you're willing to listen and hear it. And I mean that in a metaphorical sense, not a literal sense.
Yeah I think I get what you mean now and I respect your "beliefs", and I generally agree with how you phrased it at the end, but I admit I can't prove such things. They remain in the realm of philosophy.
Thanks, same to you. Have a good rest of your day.
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We have physical, objective evidence that death occurs but no non-physical, subjective evidence because living, even if you've temporarily died, means you haven't fully experienced it in the way we have physically seen others do so.
Conversely, I have subjective evidence that free will occurs because I feel like I can choose between sitting here typing or getting up and having a glass of water but I have no objective evidence that I have free will.
Perhaps life isn't the opposite of death and causality isn't the opposite of free will: free will is the opposite of Death; causality is the opposite of Life.
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Can you expand on this? I'm not sure I even understand what you're saying cause I think you missed a few words or something, the sentence doesn't seem to properly line up, either that or..I dunno.. But I just don't really get what you mean there.
Glad you agree there.
Interesting thoughts. Perhaps, or perhaps in some cases there is no opposite.. Perhaps some things just are.
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We know death occurs objectively because we can see dead people but we can't know anything about death subjectively because we're alive. Some people dismiss free will because we don't have objective evidence that it exists but we technically don't have any subjective evidence that death exists and nobody questions that death is a part of our experience, so why should we assume that a lack of objective evidence regarding free will means that it isn't a part of our experience?
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Thanks for clarifying. I don't disagree with any of that really. And I'm open minded to the idea that maybe there is no death in a subjective sense, like.. Maybe we go elsewhere or things start over like Groundhogs day or.. Who knows.. I dunno. I admit I don't. Many people seem to have a problem admitting when they don't know. Heh. Not me.
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People generally don't have free will. They think they do but they don't.
You can have free will although to achieve it you have to give up a lot.. I guess free will comes with "enlightenment". Just my 2 cents..
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