Lately I have been thinking about Plato’s Republic (Republic Book IV 414b-415d- Link/Source below) Most specifically, I have been thinking about The Myth of Metals (Link/Source below) that Plato invokes to perpetuate a desired aim and goal. He orchestrates this myth in a way to manipulate a particular organization of citizens to maximize loyalty and solidify cohesion of the ideal State. It all sounds pretty sorted, don’t you think? As scandalous as it may sound to some, none-the-less it got me thinking about lying in a more general sense. Is it okay to lie if it is under the guise that it will produce some good or desirable results? When is it permissible to lie and what actually constitutes a lie?
I started doing some research into lying in terms of moral obligations as a means to get things more clear in my own mind. I’ve provided some guidelines to ensure a common definition of lying, additionally this helps to inform the reader what I mean and what I am pointing to within this blog. Let us lay some groundwork about what constitutes a lie (Link/Source below).
A lie has three essential features:
· A lie communicates some information
· The liar intends to deceive or mislead
· The liar believes that what they are 'saying' is not true
There are some features that people think are part of lying but aren't actually necessary:
· A lie does not have to give false information
· A lies does not have to be told with a bad (malicious) intention - white lies are an example of lies told with a good intention
So, given all this information, when is it okay, or is it okay to lie? I have been thinking about this over the last few weeks a lot. I understand that sometimes the truth hurts but does telling a small white lie or lying by omission ever justify the means? Does the lie once discovered make the hurt exponentially worse? Here are my thoughts on the issue. I think we should strive to be as truthful as possible because it seems when a lie is exposed (whether it has good intentions or bad) it results in a feeling of betrayal. Thus telling a white lie assumes two problematic premises: 1. the lie will not be exposed 2. once exposed the white lie won’t actually do more damage than initially telling the truth. In human terms do we owe people the truth at all times?
I think the point that gives me the biggest moral dilemma is this; are we robbing a person of their freedom and free will when we do lie to them because they may subsequently make decisions based on false or not completely accurate information? Do we as Kant said (link/source below) never lie because to do so violates a person’s intrinsic value and treats the person as a means for the liar to achieve their goal or aim?? Finally, what kind of world do we encourage when we believe lying is permissible? In this world (maybe we already live in this world?? Current media does very little to discourage this idea.) where lying is morally permissible can we ever trust anyone and what kind of world would it be if there was not at least a presumption of trust and truth? I am curious to read other’s thoughts on this matter. Thanks for taking the time to read and provide your thoughts.
Links to Sources:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/republic/
https://outre-monde.com/2010/10/22/platonic-myths-the-myth-of-the-metals/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/lying/lying_1.shtml
Enjoying your questionings, let's go a little deeper.
I think we should strive to be as truthful as possible.
This is accurate at first glance. From experience, sometimes telling truth invokes resistance and disbelief possibly due to cognitive dissonance and/or an ingrained avoidance of straying from acceptance of the status quo.
Are we robbing a person of their freedom and free will when we lie?
Truth may well be the ultimate freedom looking from our highest realized perspective.
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Hello @bilbop! Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. It's been something I find my mind going to quite a bit these last few weeks and more so, wondering how much we are damaged or how much we damage another when we lie. That seems an important thing to talk about, well, at least in my mind it does.
Ahh yes, cognitive dissonance is a thing, isn't it? But, I think we have to view that in a specific light. It doesn't always result in attitude incongruity but it can sometimes, in those magical moments we can't anticipate nor control, results in a changed and new belief! So, I will assert that we need to remain optimistic in our truthful exchanges for good results. And as always: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst scenario, right?
There does not seem to be a lot of truth these days. The culture of "Me" seems to be very prevalent and hard to penetrate. I am recalling in my mind a Sam Harris quote that seems relevant to what you posted: “If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” ~Sam Harris It does present a challenge doesn't it? But truth seems a more important ideal than people's comfort levels doesn't it?
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I agree with your mind. ; ) This conversation is important and needs to be discussed with optimistic solutions on our minds also. The culture of "Me" is possibly resultant from cultural conditioning via mass media using subliminals or ???. I remain optimistic even though I get eye rolls or some just walk away even when logic or evidential proof is revealed. Truth is more important than people's comfort level but as you said hard to penetrate.
From a conspiratorial viewpoint, some insight may be seen about high culture vs popular culture at 00:50 - 01:36 time on Paul Joseph Watson youtube 'the truth about popular culture' (Please be aware this video is NSFW) To me this provided some insight as to where our present culture may have its beginnings around 100 years ago.
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Thanks for the recommendations @bilbop and the NSFW warning. Much appreciated for that one! ;)
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Ideologically speaking, lying is a slippery slope with lots of arguments and counterarguments... from a more functional perspective, the issue I have with lying is that it represents a "breach of trust."
If you lie to me... and I discern or discover that, everything you subsequently say becomes suspect. Even if you are doing something as harmless as handing me a glass of water, I might still ponder-- for a fraction of a second-- whether you might be handing me lighter fluid.
Maybe I'm just of a suspicious nature... getting back to current media and "alternative facts," I'm less amazed by the stories cooked up than by the fact that people actually believe this stuff, often without question.
But is it "OK" to lie? For me that becomes an issue of "situational ethics."
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Hello @denmarkguy! I am so glad you decided to comment on this. Thank you for taking the time to do so. I know that implied trust is a tough one, isn't it? I am finding it more and more difficult to trust many things and in extension many people these days. It appears everything is an elaborate scam and everyone is just using you for their own individual leverage and means. sigh
I think current times have caused a level of suspicion. You are correct on that assertion. Have you heard of Brandolini's Law?? To get at truth sometimes seems to be an exhausting endeavour and to have the time and energy to counteract an inaccurate assertion is difficult when you also have to eat. The current social, political, and economic terrain is the perfect ground to cultivate a culture of bullshit. But we need to strive on, in spite of this and because of this, right?
Hope you are having a great day!
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Thank you once again for your response to@denmarkguy and your perspective @kobiespriggs
The lack of implied trust and the rise of suspicion began many years ago.
I my recollection, in the USA, the school systems and the television stations promoted 'stranger danger' to school age children and their parents during the 1970's-80's. Ergo starting and promoting suspicion and destroying what remained, of some people having an inherent trust in their fellow humans.
Before this juncture in time, lots of young people hitch-hiked most everywhere, even thousands of miles across the country.
I being one of those. At times just went hitch-hiking only to meet new friends and then hitching back to meet more. What, is the underlying probable cause? Might it be a sub-surface agenda to erase the distinction of high culture from popular culture. A dumbing down of awareness creating suspicion and fear?
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So, here is the million dollar question how do we (assuming that we once had trust) get back to a stage of cultural development where we felt a sense of safety and/or trust?
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Quite a perplexing question. Gnawing and pondering on solutions for some time already. This is one of the many reasons I was led to Steemit. To help build community, (common unity) based with the intent to rebuild towards high culture worldwide. Steemit, although not perfect is still the most advanced blockchain technology with a social media platform. Steem on with focused intent, for now.
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Do you think we have ever actually achieved a "high culture"? I am assuming since you used the world "rebuild" you believe it to have existed prior to our contemporary context? I haven't had time to check out the video you recommended (so, I apologize if this summarizes your definition of high culture) but what specifically and what characteristics would you attribute to high culture?
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Perhaps way back when humans were tribal, or later being,way less free, during the renaissance. The video fails to explain the definition, however reveals what the possible plan is for culture. Exposed from 00:50 through 01:36. Avoid watching since it's vile. Or cover the screen and only listen. Post-modernist nihilists, who probably thought they were high culture, seek to erase the distinction of high culture from popular culture. This could be where the divide began in earnest.
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Through a conversation between Socrates and Adeimantus (Plato's brother) Plato defines the
true lie' as believing wrongly about the most important things in one's life. Thelie in the soul' can be understood as Plato's answer to the Sophist Protagoras' famous assertion that "Man is the measure of all things", that, if one believes something to be so, it is so. Plato repudiated Protagoras' claim in virtually every one of his dialogues and Republic is no exception.Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
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“Man is always prey to his truths. Once he has admitted them, he cannot free himself from them.” ~Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus and Other Essays
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For the record I'm working on that non-philosophy blog. It's called "A Requiem for Ruins and All The People I Used To Be"
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There are no ruins as the spirit moves through life shedding its human ego. Inside my 40th birthday card was written: BURN YOUR EGO! Interesting card :)
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I promise you'll like this :)
https://steemit.com/philosophy/@mindhunter/before-i-go-i-want-to-share-one-of-the-notes-i-have-taped-to-my-steemit-laptop-that-has-helped-me
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Ahh, Stoic philosophy!
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I'd say it boils down to intent.
A lie told to deceive and benefit the teller is worse than a lie told to someone to spare feelings or stir up bigger problems to the listener.
The classic White Lie.
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Hello @stanley-steemit! Thanks for taking the time to comment. I don't know? Do you think the lie told to spare someone's feelings but then later discovered might do more damage as it potentially can erode the relationship, cause distrust and provide a double whammy of feeling not worthy of the truth?
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I guess you have to know the person well in the relationship. Since one has to guess how another will respond in any situation, one can only judge oneself and if the intent is pure, better to keep the secret or truth, and if eventually found out the deceiver must explain the good intent.
I'm wary of couples who insist on total honesty in all things. Especially if one of the partners isn't self reflective at all.
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It seems to be a lot of assuming and strategizing which is the better approach. I guess that is a good metaphor for life. It's messy and complicated and we often get things wrong and screw up. We are such fragile creatures. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." ~Yoda
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That's the point of life while we are still animating these puppets of crude matter, we assume and strategize and hopefully learn our lessons. We sometimes get it wrong, and sometimes it turns out right in the end.
Until we can all realize (and evolve) to our true nature as luminous beings, where nothing but truth and love shine brightly, we have to do the work as 3D beings in the physical world.
Tough work it is, as Yoda might say.
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"Do or do not, there is no try. "~ Yoda
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