I here many justify things as acceptable simply based on a premise of "it's voluntary, so no harm no foul". Here is a scenario involving children trading baseball cards that shows how flawed this axiom is.
A 9 year old boy has some baseball cards.
A 13 year old boy has some baseball cards.
The 13 year old understands money more than then 9 year old.
The 9 year old has cards that are worth something and the 13 year old wants them.
The 13 year old convinces the 9 year old that his many cards are worth the same as one of the 13 year olds, and they should trade. The 9 year old boy wants to be liked by the 13 year old older boy, so he accepts the deal. He doesn't know any better.
The 13 year old boy actually traded a $0.10 card and lied about it's value in order to get a $10 card.
The exchange was voluntary, right?
Maybe instead of a trade, the young kid paid $5 -- or even $1 -- of his saved up money for one card that was worth $0.10. Still voluntary, right?
Many interactions are voluntarily agreed upon, along with exchanges. But the question that matters is: does the person know they are ripping someone off? If so, then the fact that the exchange was voluntary does not make it a right and honest exchange. The person who knew they were ripping someone off, or overcharging, whatever, knows what they are doing and they do it anyways because they can get away with it.
With the two kids -- or in adult interactions -- just because someone is clever, deceitful and can manipulate others into voluntarily buying things, that doesn't make it right or without harm or foul. Screwing people over is a wrong.
Just because people agree to pay for something someone is selling, doesn't mean it's a right, honest and fair deal. Screwing people over isn't right. We have trust in others honesty. We can be pitched a bullshit sell and believe it and buy into it. This applies for ideas as well as products and services.
If you're just looking at how "good" or "right" something is because you get to make money doing something that is "allowed", it doesn't mean what you're doing is actually good in the bigger picture. Maybe it's "good" for you to make money, in the short-term "now", but a long-term bigger picture focus is required in order to see if the benefits we get are actually something that merits doing in the first place. We exist "now", but we're always going towards the future we create. We need to look ahead before we merely accept doing things in the "now".
Screwing over a long-term potential success for an organization in order to get immediate short-term personal gains for ourselves isn't right either. Individuals can expand their vision beyond themselves, or the immediate short-term gains they or others can get by doing something. Instead of a limiting self-centered and self-concerned focus on what we can gain now, we need to look at how it affects the overall dynamics of the system we are in.
Some people -- or a politician -- may like certain policies in government, or try to pass them through, etc., because it can favor them personally. But what does this do to the long term of the country? What do certain schemes do in the long term for an organization or system? From nations, to companies and online communities, members need to be mindful and aware of the long-term goals and how to attain them, rather than inventing and celebrating new ways of exploiting the system or others just so we or others can personally gain in the short-term but at the expense of the long-term.
The phrase "it's voluntary, no harm no foul" isn't always correct. We can be deceived into accepting false modalities of living. Just because a society accepts it, doesn't make it truly "right".
There is also a credo people live by: "You can do anything you want as long as you get away with it."
I call this the credo of immorality, because it allows you to justify anything and invent it as something "right" even when it's wrong.
Have you heard people use this to justify what is happening?
I have two opinions on this..
Tells me that it's the person who's making the deal in the first place's responsibility to make sure they know the true value of what it is they are trading (Obviously different with a 9-year-old LOL). But then again, in everyday life in 2017, there is nothing you cannot find information-based online.
If the person short selling the other person doesn't realize they are ripping someone off, does it still make it as wrong? Because at the end of the day it's about morals and ethics, but if you don't know you are doing anything wrong, are you really a bad person?
Just my 2 cents :)
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Just for 2, Of course not, ignorance makes all the difference. I think there is a second what if situation there though of the person who was ignorant, then later gets educated, how far along the path that person goes until they attempt to correct things if they are able to.
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It's true. You must also take into account that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that they are ripping someone off.. :P And if you take into account in how many situations someone is actually being scammed, maybe 80%+ of them are therefor being deliberate :)
And you're right, that's worth far more than 5 cents LOL. So, just my 10 000 cents :P
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One may claim that ripping somebody off is morally wrong, however, my question here is: what constitutes a rip-off?
Does failing to do the necessary due diligence abdicate somebody their responsibility in a voluntary exchange, thus giving him the right to be a victim? I don't think so.
To me, the worst ripoff is a system that takes a large percentage of your money at the end of each year, of which you have no voice in determining how the funds are being utilized cough tax-ationcough**
Not only is that involuntary, but you also have absolutely control over it.
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Those are good cases. Everyone does have a responsibility to educate themselves about someone and what they offer first, that is due diligence.
Yet, whether that is done or not doesn't make what is done any more right. Con artists convince people, they know how to influence minds. Falling for a con man make one a dupe, a fool, but there are clever con men and ponzi schemes like Madoff. Just because one get's conned, one is not "deserving of what they got because they fell for it", which is another thing some people say to justify wrongs hehe.
Ignorance of wrong doing does not abdicate one from the responsibility of that wrong doing. Actions were manifested by an individual. They are responsible, even if it's socially accepted at one time. Slavery was, yet it was never right to do it. Society "absolves" itself in some alchemical solution so as to purify itself from it's past sins done in ignorance or false justification. Ignorance lessens the culpability, due to a lack of willful intent to do that wrong thing compared to someone with the knowledge of right vs. wrong in that situation. Actions make us who we are, with intent or not. The severity of our culpability can factor in the knowledgeable intent or ignorance of what we were doing "forgive them for they know not what they do" as Jesus would say ;)
I can think of an example like someone originally paying more for something out of ignorance, trying to sell it for the similar price later, maybe more or less depending on use or repairing it better, etc., but still doesn't know the "market" value while someone else does and calls them a cheater, scammer, con, etc. That person is not intending to screw someone over, they were being pretty reasonable. If the buyer didn't know either and would have bought it, the seller wouldn't be doing an intentional wrong as he bought it overpriced as well. The action and context matters, but the action was done and still holds accountability, i.e. responsibility on the part of the agent who created that action.
One can even perpetuate injustice and slavery as "justice" in ignorance, but that doesn't absolve one of the actions they actually did. Apologies, redresses and repentance is all possible, people can redeem themselves, whether it's done in ignorance or with knowledge. Everyone can change for the better ;)
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It feels like I just did a comprehension test in high school and now I need to answer the questions :D
Very well said. This could be a very strong debating topic for sure! And it's true. Many people are actually in the wrong, but then try and make themselves feel better by justifying how the other person was not as smart.. HAHA!
The thing is, it's also quite a tough topic to deal with, since so many people are on the bad side of this story in some form or another. For example, just look at any billionaire. Name me one billionaire that didn't have a 'Monopoly' mindset. A mental edge. I'm sure each one of them did a ton of good too, but I am very sure they had to rip a few people off at least a few times to get to that level.. And what's funny is you can go and ask any one of them if they did, and they will probably justify themselves :D
I think in conclusion, this is apart of human nature and natural dominance (Survival of the fittest). To an extent of course. Obviously some people are purely wrong with the things they do and that's not at all justifiable, but for the general sense, I would say it's expected to a certain degree.
I think we should make posts about this haha. By the way, let me know what you think of my content. I am interested to know what you think I need to improve in my content :)
Like Mark Zuckerberg says, "You Can't Get To 1 Billion Friends, Without Making A Few Enemies."
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Some good points. You mention slavery here as a past event, but that is not something that is only in the past. There are over 1 million slaves presently in the USA.
Sometimes we look at our smartphones and think 'man, we're so advanced!'. Unfortunately, some things are just as barbaric and savage as they've ever been.
Thanks for bringing some of the advances to our attention!
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I meant outright overt slavery ;) lol. We have many layers of enslavement from physical to psychological still around. Thanks for the feedback.
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I mean outright, overt slavery. Millions of Americans are held in captivity and forced to work under duress. Most are held in government facilities, but many are held in private prisons as well.
Regardless of any justifications supposed to support the captivity and enslavement of Americans, it is indeed overt slavery.
I did not address how taxation is also a form of slavery, or any psychological interpretations, such as wage-slavery, although I agree those are indeed valid infringements.
American laws compel prisoners to work, and that work is clearly and obviously coerced under various overt (and covert as well) threats. While there are token payments made to those slaves, they are clearly but window dressing.
Indeed, payment to slaves does not establish that they are not slaves, as history is replete with slaves being able to purchase their freedom that payment they received for their work enabled.
The payment to American prisoners is far, far less, and completely inadequate to ever be adequate to purchase their freedom, even were such a mechanism legally available. There are however, means of purchasing freedom from such slavery that are available to those who have already got the money to do so, by substituting fines for prison.
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Yeah we are coerced into economic survivability as I have called it, because we can't survive freely off the land as we are coerced into paying taxes. The prison system is bad and that is pretty overt with the labor camps. Pay-to-play "justice" system, where the rich can get their way out. If you don't have the dough, in you go. Thanks for the great feedback as usual.
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I could not be more grateful for having to have used my brain. That's all you.
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We create the world that we deserve, in that our actions cause consequences that come back to affect us. That's how karma works. Karma, from my perspective, does not indicate some higher power with a finger on the scales bringing eventual justice to everyone. Rather, I think it just acknowledges that our world is ruled by causality.
If we cheat others, then we foster and support a world of cheaters, in which case we ourselves will eventually be on the receiving end of that cheating. If we cheat others, it separates us from others, in which case even if we end up with a lot of money we do so alone, and in the end would trade all of that money for some human connections.
The worst thing the gods did to us was allow us freedom, because in so doing they also gave us responsibility. The process of becoming an adult, of maturing, is the process of accepting the inseparable link between the two. That's how we fully become children of the gods.
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Yes, "karma" is only demonstrable in causal feedback from effects our actions produce in the short-term and long-term as an individual and even a society or as a species. Those before, those now, and those in the future, will create what gets created. Our long term future doesn't look so good considering our greed, domination and expansion to consume and reform the material on this planet without restriction, all in the name of "Growth" which is unsustainable.
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But causality will bring us back in line. We can't destroy the planet, and honestly, we won't even destroy ourselves. All over the world there are abandoned giant monuments. The technology and societal sophistication necessary to build these things boggles the mind. But they are abandoned why? Because the system ran its course, the tragedy of the commons ran its course, the collected societal wealth was squandered on nonsense, and the society disbanded. Natives continue to live around it, but the empire ceased to be a going concern.
As I see it, our job at this point in history is to collect the wisdom, distill it, and store it for the future.
Wisdom is like gold. Gold is completely useless during a collapse. Gold is only useful in the sense that it is only one of a few ways to get wealth though a collapse and to the other side. Same thing for wisdom.
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I didn't literally mean destroy it, although we could with nukes ;) Destroying the planet as in rendering the state in less than favorable condition to support us or other life, whereby a reduction in populations occurs due to lack of water, food, etc. We could ravage the planet and turn it barren like Mars. The Sahara dessert is said to once have been filled with green but overgrazing of human imposed activities resulted in it vanishing.
Wisdom is not like gold if you want to say that gold is useless unless during a collapse. Wisdom is about acting wisely, rightly, not foolishly or wrongly. Wisdom is not useless, it's always useful. Thanks for the feedback.
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When I said wisdom was useless during a collapse, I mean wisdom about how to handle riches. Essentially, that's what we have not been able to handle well.
Gold during a collapse goes into hiding because it is either outlawed, or plundered whenever someone tries to use it. Ask the Chinese. During the time of Mao, anyone with any wealth whatsoever was in great danger. The worst thing you could possible have done was to let anyone know that you had any gold by trying to buy something with it. That would either get you a visit from the police, who would make up an infraction and confiscate it for their own use, or robbed, or both. So gold during a collapse cannot be used. It hides, but that is how it safely carries wealth through the time of chaos until stability re-emerges.
For different reasons but along the same lines, wisdom about how to handle riches cannot be used during times of no riches, during times of collapse and re-growth. Unlike gold, which is dangerous to use, wisdom about more complex systems is just not useful when the system is collapsing back to less complexity.
Each civilization apparently has to learn anew the dangers of thinking themselves smarter than causality, smarter than equilibrium, smarter than nature. Rather than understanding that we are an outgrowth of nature, we think that we have beat nature, and turn around and try to tell nature what to do. It is this wisdom that needs to be saved and remembered, to make it through the time of collapse and rebuilding until society once again has resources burning a hole in its pockets.
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Not each civilization, but each generation. Hubris is the enemy of wisdom, and humility it's parent.
You clearly were raised right, because much of what you've said is wise.
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Hah! Sadly, I think "good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions" would be closer to the truth ;-)
That isn't a reflection on my parents though. I just came out of the womb knowing it all and had to get a few concussions to learn the wisdom of humility.
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We contribute. We don't create the world.
I have experienced things I have preferred to avoid. It is only after long introspection that I have become able to value those experiences, as harrowing as they were, as they have enabled me to see everything in ways I could never have, had I not suffered.
I do not promote suffering as something one should seek, but when events bring it upon us, I do recommend finding the way it is benefiting you. Neither do I condemn pleasure, but it is wise to always consider how it is degrading you.
While karma seems to be a principle that operates, chaos is it's boss. When you are lucky, it is easy to credit all your hard work and wisdom for your success, and to regard others not so lucky as lazy or stupid. This is facile, and born of hubris.
We perceive cause and effect. According to the Copenhagen school of Quantum Physics, causality is a hit and miss affair. Schrodinger's cat may or may not be alive, maybe because of whether we look in to see it.
Causality might just be an artifact of gods that play fair, and follow the rules they set for us.
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As always, a thought provoking post. I work construction, and a common saying is 'do something, even if it's wrong.' There's some value to that, in terms of always appearing to be doing work to bosses that harsh your mellow if they see you taking a moment to think things over.
However, I have always instead advocated 'Don't just do something, sit there.'
Doing the wrong thing in construction means the materials and wages are expended in work that will not be acceptable. This is all wasted, and needs to be torn down. Tearing it down also costs money, and then the work still needs to be done. Doing the wrong thing costs at least three times as much, and taking a moment to just think about things is often exactly the right thing to do.
You can imagine that I have, on occasion, elected to pursue other employment when bosses that espouse the former saying noted that I wasn't always necessarily in motion. However, this is a good thing, as I prefer bosses that are happy my work never needs to be done over, or only rarely.
I reckon these principles hold true similarly in other fields and realms, though there are circumstances where doing something over just can't happen. It is those circumstances that most show that doing the right thing is always preferable to doing the quick thing.
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If you're going to do something, do it right. ;)
Measure twice, cut once. ;)
Don't just judge, but judge justly ;)
Just some sayings about the importance of taking the time to learn and maximize potential for accuracy, correctness, rightness, etc. Yes it does apply in many areas of life ;)
Some people don't think or analyze much, so they don't understand what others are doing to improve the process, etc. Thanks for the feedback.
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I used to apply a quote from Davy Crockett to my emails on the paleoweb: "Always be sure you are right, then go ahead." It's been many years since I read the quote, so I may be merely paraphrasing, but it exemplifies we are in good company, at least.
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Be wright, or go wrong.
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Hit the nail on the head with this one. So many people today use this method and justify its use. I can see children doing it even though that doesn't make it right, but seeing adults that know better just taking advantage turns my stomach. Those people tend to stand out in a bad way and hurt themselves for short term gain. How true. Good post my friend!
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Thanks and thanks for the feedback ;) If one looks at Steemit and all the ways people are trying to make money self-voting or using pay-to-play... it gives you an idea of how short-term gains are what their focus is on.
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Very, very true. I recently posted how weighting votes by SP traps whales into self voting, and people only envy them the money, without recognizing the money forces them to not curate, as curation would take the place of earning from self votes, which they can't afford to do.
Whales are in this position because their votes are significantly weighted with SP, but minnows votes are worth pennies. Minnow votes are practically valueless, but do have great value in encouraging and creating relationships with others.
I pointed out in that post that minnows self voting just don't understand Steemit. I read a comment that said 'I upvote my comments because most of my rewards come from self votes.'
Such focus on immediate rewards prevent the blossoming of relationships from which far greater rewards - even speaking only of money - come.
Money isn't much of a reward, really. As many whales have discovered, it's also a trap.
I have better things to do.
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Yeah, I stopped upvoting my posts before HF19. I didn't upvote my comments prior to that anyways. People got more voting people, so then it become more about how they can get money by self-voting. Money is the #1 drive of most of the people on the platform. Money is never first for me, but that doesn't mean it's not important, nor that I will let some power playing abuser of power walk all over me and flag my rewards away.
As for the whales self-voting, they had most of the power in SP voting to give themselves rewards before. What is your definition of a "whale"? Most "whales" (500k+) don't make posts.
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I like your style of writing and respect your opinion. Please check out this post and give an honest opinion since I'm new. Thanks @krnel in advance. https://steemit.com/steemit/@saved4newlife/you-cant-wait-to-be-prepared-would-you-jump-from-a-plane-without-a-parachute-so-many-are-doing-just-that
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That hit too close to home. There's a pun joke here about the common platforms of people running (again) for office. "Poor the people, buy the people" Because they pay for people's votes and then make the people poorer after they get elected.
._. The shizzy and sad truth.
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Yeah, it is sad :\
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Great point of view. This is the world we live in and these kinds of "voluntary, no harm no foul" is everywhere. There's very little honest people left...
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Many put money, or friends, or other things, above standing against what's wrong. We're all trying to maximize our survival potential, so truth and moral truth often get pushed down under other priorities we've adopted as more importance. Thanks for the feedback.
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I do not believe that if something is voluntarily done makes it 'no harm'. Lot of missionaries hide the 'mission to convert' in the name of 'voluntary'. People are made to believe that one religion is better than other so they can "voluntarily" choose. IF they don't, possibly the help will be denied.
I am not saying every voluntary act or mission is like that...but point to your article, is that, there are malicious deceitful things that happen behind the 'voluntary' curtains.
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Indeed, the veil of "good" that evil hides behind. I wrote a post about that ;)
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There are missions that compel the hungry to listen to a sermon (over the growling in their stomachs) before getting a meal.
I note that I can go at least a month without food. I can walk a long ways away from those 'missions' in a month.
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My point exactly, hunger is a bigger threat than a gun pointed on your head...and under duress of hunger - people generally do anything!
Opinion.
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Sound opinion, imho. The Holodomor exemplifies your statement well. Indeed, the bulk of the 65 million+ people murdered by the Bolsheviks were killed by starvation, rather than physical assault.
Unfortunately those victims were prevented from just walking somewhere there was food.
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Nice read. Good one. Keep it up
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Wow, this is a real situation that happened to me when I was a kid. I don't even remember the baseball players name, but the neighbor was about 3 or 4 years older than me while I was like 7 years old or around that, and did a trade for some cards, to which I later found out the value of what I traded him. It happened so long ago, I really wish I could remember what the card was I traded and who alarmed me to what occurred, probably my big sister. Instead I just remember this kid used to call me a friend and did this to me. Thanks for making me depressed this morning @krnel ! j/k of course, it was a lesson learned from me in the sense I know what not to do to other people, I hope that kid learned too some day instead of following his credo of immorality.
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Hehe, sorry to hear about that. I'm sure this has happened to many of us as there are people who just want to gain while making others lose, and don't want to do it the honest way. Think about self-voting comments, why do you do that instead of just getting votes on your comments from others if they like them or read them. ;)
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Great article and insight..cheers mate!
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Interesting
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You done nice job
Keep it up
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nice one, resteemed!
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Thanks ;)
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Very insightful @krnel and
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Very interesting article thanx for sharing........
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All value is perceived value. So, I believe voluntary trade of goods or services at whatever value both parties agree upon, is justified. The answer to manipulation during the transaction is 'knowledge'. Whoever has more knowledge, will gain more from the it (13 year old boy in this case).
And it's immoral for sure, but being moral will nullify any possibility of profit during the transaction on in future transactions. Choose yourself!
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I submit your comment is a perfect example of how hubris leads us astray.
Value, however you think of it, exists whether you perceive it or not. Let's say you need to buy some compressed gas for your cutting torch. The market sets a price on that gas, and that is the value you agree it has.
On the way home with your tank of compressed O2, there is a terrible earthquake, and you are trapped in a collapsed overpass. A water main is leaking, and soon you are trapped in a tiny bubble of air, underwater.
Fortunately the bottle of compressed O2 had value you never perceived, until that moment.
Not only does this point out that we cannot perceive all the value that exists, it also completely negates your supposition that knowledge leads to the ability to profit from other's ignorance.
What you neglect with your hubristic disregard for morals is that money really isn't valuable at all. When you are trapped in a bubble, all your BTC won't have any value at all.
What if you are in that situation, and you have been what you would consider a savvy businessman, persistently taking advantage of others in various deals. After you do this, you become known as someone without scruple.
In another crushed car next to yours is a person that has always insisted on fair dealings, accepting less money, but greater regard from their peers, unlike you. The community is responding to the earthquake and all your neighbors are coming to save trapped people under the overpass. They only have time to save one person.
How smart was it to rip all those people off?
You can't predict what the future will bring. I assure you that the regard of your peers is far more valuable than money, and your own self respect - not conceit, born of hubris - can never be matched by any amount of gold.
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