It's important to know where errors in reasoning are made. Fallacies can indicate such errors. But sometimes people can arrive at true conclusions despite using minor errors in reasoning to prove their point.
Does the use of a fallacy automatically mean the conclusion or proposition is false? No. Thinking that a fallacy invalidates a proposition is an error in reasoning known as the fallacy fallacy.
The end. That's what the fallacy fallacy is. If you want to understand why this is the case, please continue reading.
What's more important: getting to the right answer, or being "100% perfect" about how you arrived at such a conclusion? Some people just ignore the conclusion itself and want to point out fallacies that were engaged in yet don't affect the veracity of the conclusion.
People can become fallacy-obsessed, and think a fallacy demonstrates a falsity in someone's conclusions about reality. But it actually only demonstrates a falsity/error in reasoning -- not an error of the conclusion itself, but in explaining the conclusion.
The fallacy in explaining a wrong/erroneous conclusion can indicate that the fallacy is how someone made the "wrong turn" and arrived at the wrong conclusion. Recognizing fallacies is helpful to show people why their conclusions are false -- if they are indeed false -- because their reasoning is faulty as indicated by a fallacy.
But someone can use fallacious statements that are erroneous in some way, while advocating for a verifiable truth. The conclusion they are talking about is true -- or at least contains a kernel of truth -- but the way they delivered the concluding truth had errors. Despite some minor errors, most people can still understand the truth that is being conveyed. People can also accept partial truths mixed with falsity as a whole, and take everything to be "true" when it isn't. Fallacies can help prevent that, but verifying the conclusion is also required in order to not be fooled by convincing words.
Fallacies are useful to show errors for why someone has accepted or arrived at a false conclusion, but it's not the be-all-end-all to validate a conclusion. You can even structure something logically without any fallacies yet purposefully propose a false conclusion -- or a conclusion that makes no sense. The logical construction of an argument doesn't automatically provide truth about a matter.
The lack of fallacies doesn't automatically validate a conclusion, nor does the use of fallacies automatically invalidate a proposition or conclusion.
A person trying to understand someone else can get stuck in the message delivery -- the rhetoric used -- rather than looking at what is said. Being able to explain the answer properly is important, but not as important as arriving at the right answer.
If the conclusion is erroneous, then fallacies can be exposed to show how the person is not reasoning accurately to arrive at the conclusion. But to simply claim a conclusion is false just because there are fallacies, is a fallacy fallacy.
"This is not true because you used an 'ad hominem'."
"This is not true because your conclusion still 'begs the question'."
"This is not true because of X, Y, Z, fallacy."
Using a fallacy doesn't make something true, just like using a fallacy doesn't make something false either. Fallacies are indicators that the conclusion might be false because fallacies were used, but not that it is certainly false.
To claim a conclusion is false by looking only for fallacies in message rhetoric, without even looking into the conclusion honestly -- without curiosity, critical thinking and objective detachment from ourselves -- is a fallacy-error of the mind itself. This is the fallacy-fallacy.
I like to call the rigid myopic use of logical methods anal-logic, a false logical process. The truth doesn't really matter to these types of thinkers. Anal-logic is not real honest logic. Look at the truth that's being expressed if it's there, not the rhetorical form of the message alone. Logic can be used to do wrong things, like being "cold hearted" and harming others, but also to argue dishonestly by not looking for the truth.
If someone expresses a fallacy but speaks the truth about reality, then it's still truth despite the road taken having issues and not being the best path to get to that conclusion or reality.
A rhetorical focus on the message delivery first, and not truthfulness of the conclusion -- or only on the message while disregarding the truth in a conclusion -- is indicative of the poisoned version of the Classical Trivium. Classical rhetoric favors effective convincing of a point, true or false. Winning through effective communicate to convince someone. This is when the focus is on rhetorical manipulation through cunning word magic and sophistry, rather than arriving at the truth. Someone's message delivery can lack being the most effective, while still conveying the truth of the matter.
When you only point out the fallacies, while ignoring the truth or falsity of the conclusion, you tend to side-track the actual issue. Fallacies need to really be pointed out when they prevent access to truth. This way the false paths used to arrive at the false conclusion can be corrected by removing those errors in reasoning.
Messages used to express a valid truth can be erroneous in their expression when they contain fallacies, but the truth within is still at its core -- inside, internally, in the substance of the message.
So yes, sometimes people fail to express things accurately, and you can point it out. "This fallacy", "that fallacy", etc. If they are expressing a truth, but do it incorrectly -- as with a fallacy -- you can't always simply deny their conclusion while only focusing on the fallacy used to demonstrate it.
Clever manipulators (as well as some people in error) like to wear others down with endless questions, doubts or demands. They can act like they want the truth of the matter, or that they want to be corrected, yet trying to correct them or answer their questions is like banging your head against a wall. They often get you to go around in circles, never ceding a point to finally arrive at the destination (truth) of understanding something more. I've had many of these arguments so I can often detect people who use similar tactics and avoid getting involved in using up my time and energy.
They don't want to understand or be corrected, they just want to play manipulative false anal-logic games and drag you along to waste your time and energy "debating" them. This is the dark logic of false rhetoricians who engage in clever sophistry to "win". They claim to want reason, but they don't really. They just want to hold onto what they were holding onto -- be it a falsity or denial of a truth.
When someone doesn't really want to arrive at the destination of truth by engaging in pseudo-rational debates, is it really worth your time and energy? I think not. Choose where you put your time and energy. Time is limited in life. You don't have to convince everyone, let alone waste time on those who don't really want to understand.
TL;DR?
If someone's conclusions are false, detecting fallacies can help show why someone arrived at a false conclusion. But detecting fallacies doesn't mean someone's conclusions are false: that's the fallacy fallacy.
This reads like a biography of certain people I know here on steemit! 😂 (And no I don't mean you in case you thought this was a backhanded whatever!)
When people hurl fallacies left and right, it's a telltale sign they're amateurs who never formally studied either philosophy or logic. There's also a high probability they're 16, or at least are psychologically stuck at 16. No professional philosopher I've ever known used accusations of fallacy as liberally as some people do in social media!
When you're writing an essay at uni, you're trying to present your opponent's argument in the best light possible. This trains you to listen, to be objective, to err on the safe side, and to avoid misconstruing other people's arguments.
I like your term 'fallacy-obsessed'! And many other points you made. I'm certainly bookmarking this!
And also who in their right mind expects someone to be absolutely error-free in the context of steemit discussions?! We aren't writing to be published in academic journals. Of course we're gonna make mistakes sometimes. Of course there's gonna be logical slips. The thing is to see the argument and intention behind the mistakes.
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Hehe ;) I know what you mean this time ;) I still have to go back to your past comments for your other post hehe. I'll be going through the submissions tomorrow.
Knowing when people are using fallacies is good in order to show why an invalid/false conclusion is reached, if it is such. That way understanding the error in reasoning can be corrected. But definitely not something to be pointed out all the time hehe. Like you say, someone doesn't really understand how to use fallacies if they are just saying someone is using a fallacy i n order to disqualify their conclusion immediately or try to invalidate it. Thanks for the feedback.
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I say if 50% of someone's dialogue is comprised of fallacy-accusations, they're probably engaged in a monologue!
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Yeah, there can projection at times in arguments or conflicts ;)
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
This fella exposes fallacies for a living, I sure would like to get an evaluation of what he says from you as you bring much more acuity to the examination than what I do.
@marcstevens
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Decent site I've seen. They are short answers ;) that's all. I like to elaborate and go into more detail/depth on how things work hehe. It can help others understand it more.
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They make a good check list to reference when the time is right.
I hope you will take a look at what @marcstevens is putting out, his fallacy exposing needs perspective and I was hoping to get your's.
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Yeah I follow him already. Anything in particular?
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Just an opinion on the position.
I used it and did damage control, I'd like to see more people do it.
You bring good research skills to other topics, I'd like to know what you think of his proposition.
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Well said! Instead of trying to prove the fallacies wrong or questioning the motive of someone who arrived at false conclusion, why not understand their reasoning and basis. There is a difference between criticizing uninformed ideals and criticizing people. ... Great post @krnel.
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Thanks, quite true there is a difference, and most of the time we should focus on the issues with ideas, but often times, we are dealing with people and their behavior, and that has to do with them. So we do need to criticize people at times, not just ideas. Thanks for the feedback.
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Indeed. This makes most debates really frustrating. Its a good thing to poit-out fallacies but that does not mean that a fact is incorrect because someone is commiting a fallacy.
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Arghh yes it is frustrating, you get it ;)
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I didn't study in the academies (thank-god), but when I was self-studying the nature of fallacies I became quite amused! There's a friggin' fallacy for everything:)
Anyway, I dig your point and think you're right:) No fallacy there....
Followed and upvoted!
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Yes, there certainly are many! The goal isn't to know them all by name,but to know how to spot errors in reasoning. I was always good at noticing some things, but there are more things to learn about ourselves that will make us better able to resist being misleaded by others or ourselves :P Thanks for the feedback and support.
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Sharpening minds, thank you!
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*shlink shlink* (sound of sharpening?) :P You're welcome.
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You've just described the American mainstream news media to a T.
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LMAO! Touché
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Fallacy joke
Everyone you meet brings joy
sometimes when they meet you
mostly when they leave
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Ah the fallacy, fallacy a favorite tool of many! :)
I have a question. I keep seeing these words'false' and 'true' throughout your writing. What do you mean by these words? I understand if the scope of your reply is outside of a comment. Maybe it is inspiration for a post. However, you seem to take a great interest in logical reasoning and I would love to dig deeper with you! :)
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Can you give an example? What particular sentence is of contention? Thanks.
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It was more of an offer to dig deeper on a new topic. That is, what is "truth"?
Some examples:
Which vary from...
Which I personally agree that this is the best truths we can ever hope to accomplish :)
Which is still yet different from:
Which is referring to subjective false in one's own ability to reason.
My main point here is that I believe we can use logical tools to help deduce what is false. However, in an infinite universe, that makes it hard to ever truly know what is truth outside of subjective truth. However, if all there is is subjective truth that makes attempting "to arrive at the destination of truth" a very difficult, if not impossible, feat.
I believe that logical tools are certainly helpful to help us deduce false logic and better come to a more-truth conclusion.
So, my invitation is asking you what you thought of "truth" and how it relates to logic?
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I'l offer one of my previous posts since that's what you're directly asking: What is Truth - The Importance of Truth in Life
I describe it more in other work, like a 5h presentation on Consciousness and Truth, and in other places. I keep furthering my understanding by seeing more of what 'is' demonstrated in the reality of our behavior and psychology. I clarify various things in different ways, sometimes text, sometimes infographics and audio/video. Describe what is going on, and apply definitions and meaning to what is demonstrated for others to understand it as I do. It can be verified by anyone who wants to think about it. Rather than answer people in comments with questions like yours over and over, I explain it in depth by taking the time to put out work about various things, and more people can understand it without me having to repeat it over and over. It helps me learn and makes getting the info out much more efficient. One-to-many vs. one-to-one.
Here is a post on objective vs. subjective.
Logic is how I uncover these demonstrable verifiable aspects of truth about ourselves and reality. Logic is collecting (PIE *leg) through non-contradictory identification and correspondence/correlation/interconnection of various things. Connecting demonstrable things we can understand about ourselves or reality, to beliefs, does not form verifiable understanding, despite being non-contradictory.
Understanding how the word truth applies as I posted about will help to keep things grounded. Also most of us don't consciously differentiate the actual difference between what truth means and what belief means. See belief post.
Truth can relate to the truth of what is now -- good or bad, true or false ways (eg. honesty or lies, nonharm or harm) -- and it can refer to the truer way of living -- better, gooder, truer human world/reality we can create. That's the most importance ways of looking at truth to reference parts of reality, and how collecting data about those truths (how we live, and how to better live, i.e. morality) is the most important truth, the moral truth. Logic is required to remove contradictory, conflicting, opposition behavior that goes against the values we claim to uphold.
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Thank you so much! Seriously, that is exactly what I was looking for! I am going to study your other works now :)
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Nice! Enjoy ;) But don't you like the post enough to upvote it? :P hehe
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Hahaha thanks for calling me out! Honestly, I thought I did, I guess I was too caught up in commenting to upvote (still getting used to the Steem platform)!
I've got you!
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