When violent crimes are committed and the perpetrator is caught and tried, it is common to hear statements about the leniency of the sentence, it is not sufficient punishment and they should be made to suffer.
After the police shot a knife wielding man who killed two the other day, a friend commented on her Facebook page that they should have shot him dead, he doesn't deserve to live. This type of sentiment rings through many people's minds I am sure. We hear daily the stories of some of the most horrific crimes and the closer they are to home, the more punishment we want to see inflicted against the guilty.
The closer it is to home of course brings up the thoughts of what if it had happened to my daughter, wife, brother, friend and makes one think about how to react. When it comes to violent crimes against those we love, we immediately think about exacting revenge on those who committed the atrocities. In some places they have capital punishment which ranges from lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, stoning and beheading.
In some countries, these are still public executions and even audience participation such as in a stoning. Most of the world frowns heavily upon such behavior but I wonder, if one wishes to take the life of a criminal, does it matter by which means? Of course for the criminal, lethal injection may be preferable to stoning but, in the case of the one seeking the punishment, does it matter?
The next thing that in most cases around the world, the death penalty is a non-public event behind closed doors with minimal witnesses and even though it is still to death, people can be overheard saying, that they deserved to suffer more than they did, they got off easy.
I wonder though for most people, how willing they would be if they had to enact the punishment directly, rather than through a proxy. Currently in most cases, an executioner does the job, a professional intermediary that removes the gory details of the death from the hands of the victims or family of the victims.
If some sick mind who brutally chopped his victims into pieces while alive, you are likely to want a very heavy and punishing sentence for that person but, could you inflict the punishment you desire? People say, 'he should have the same thing happen to him, an eye for an eye' but could you do to him what he did to his victims?
How willing are you to torture someone to death in the cruelest of ways and in doing so, is justice served? I wonder how many would be willing to slice someone open slowly with the intention of letting them bleed to death. Even if a victim was a partner or child, after a funeral, after a trial, after waiting for appeals and all of the evidence and bureaucracy, months or years down the track, is there still enough rage?
Can one carry the necessary anger through all of that time to getting to a point that when handed the knife, one goes into a room where the convicted murderer is bound and intimately slice the person up while looking into their eyes and watching the blood pour from the body. To feel it warm on the hands and the metallic sharpness in the nose.
How is it to think about, this person who has hypothetically killed someone you love in the most heinous of ways and now they are being punished by you, according to your own desires. Does this feel like they are getting what they deserve? Does it heal your broken heart, remove the anger, the rage? Are you now at peace?
This is no longer the distanced schadenfreude, this is utterly personal and one must be very motivated to do such as it is an unnatural act. It was a sick mind that did it to the one that you loved but, is your mind as sick? Can it be?
Perhaps under the right conditions, everyone can kill and potentially if the rage is immediate, it could even be intentionally cruel but, given time and distance, to then go and do it after a long time has passed, that takes a cold and calculating mind. The type that committed the initial act but without the actual pleasure for it, just from revenge.
But, revenge is a pleasure. It is the satisfaction of closing a mental loop, the satisfaction of giving someone what they deserve. One may be entitled to the thoughts of revenge and justify the enactment of it as a right, the retribution, the claiming of the cost of a terrible transgression.
I wonder what would happen after performing such an act. Does one calmly go back home, back to work, back to life after satisfying the hunger for revenge? Would the conscience be clear, would the mind be free of the burden of losing the loved one by taking the life of their murderer? Or would every time one closes their eyes, they relive their actions.
There would be no distance left, no imagining what it would be like to get revenge as revenge would be sated. The anger should subside as justice has been delivered, peace of mind, right? I wonder who gets punished the most.
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
The death penalty is nothing more than the hypocritical killing of a person for having committed acts and offended the sensitivities of society and the state such that their continued living is arbitrarily deemed to be too great an inconvenience to countenance.
The state will generally make it seem like a "proper" carrying out of "justice" - either through the involvement of the general public or through the burying of the murderous act beneath layers of ritual and/or protocol.
To indulge in such is to indulge in snuffing out the inconvenient, sating the lust for base retribution, further underlining the sordid degree of its control upon its subjects, the people.
The death penalty is inconsistency. To indulge in precisely what one condemns, no matter how sanitized one opts to make it, is to court an entitled hypocrisy - to devolve into that which one condemns - perhaps worse.
And those who would bark or bleat that I'd speak a different tune were I to be directly afflicted would miss the truth that it is irrelevant that I might perhaps indeed be emotionally compromised - and that hence I would no longer be relied upon to pass truly just judgment. This is why judges are supposed to be uninvested in the cases that they preside over.
As a student of consistency I recognize the hypocrisy and the folly of putting to death an individual who is no longer a threat to society by the very virtue of his or her detainment.
As a student of consistency I turn back to those who bark and bleat and ask if they would truthfully put their own flesh and blood or even themselves to death were they to commit such acts.
A few shall affirm. Whether they are consistent or liars only time could test.
Thank you for the inspiration to put my thoughts on the matter to words @tarazkp. :c)
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Well said.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Aha, a fellow student of logic?
As much as I love logic, I think you are making a mistake mixing morality and logic too much. I don't like to ride on dead horses for too long, but do you know Kant? His concept in a nutshell said that stealing and murder is always the same moral action, no matter the circumstances.
To me morality is something highly individual and that is OK. Logic is universal and shouldn't be used by people to white wash their action or idleness.
Let me give you a completely fictional example. I am a German in the year 1940 and I know about all the evil Hitler is doing, hell he did to my family. I am really pissed. All I can think about is killing Hitler. Am I a hero or an evil psychopath?
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Greetings @thatgermandude and thank you for the stimulating comment. :c)
While I would also consider myself somewhat of a student of logic, I am more of a student of consistency. I consider the two to be related but different entities.
Consistency is a metaproperty which is fundamentally important to logic and holds a co-dependent element with logic in both its perceived value as well as depending upon logic to quantify and facilitate determining consistency or lack thereof - but is not, by my reckoning, founded upon such.
I digress.
I do consider consistency and ethics to be important to quantifying and determining moral dilemmas. While I have heard of Kant, I have not studied his teachings in any meaningful depth. My immediate reaction to his concept that stealing and murder is always the same moral action, no matter the circumstances - I am uncertain as to whether he was confusing consistency with the disregard of variables (circumstances) and thus promoting sameness rather than true consistency. Such may be simpler but definition is undoubtedly lost as a result.
Yes, every individual has their sphere of the personal. Individuals also lack formal ethical guidance and this results in a much greater degree of moral variance. That variance exists is not something that I personally consider objectionable. More objectionable do I find the resultant lack of guidance and inclination to gravitate towards consistency in whatever ethical system that an individual builds over time. Instead they are provided a few lines of text and cause to fear the repercussions of following those lines...
...which often enough results in a "moral system" that shows its true mettle in instances where 'getting caught' is an unlikely possibility.
As to your fictional example - the person that you portray is clearly emotionally compromised. They are neither hero nor psychopath but an individual driven by rage/ passion. While it is highly doubtful that such a person would be held accountable for his actions within such a politically-charged climate (kind of like soldiers triumphantly claiming that they killed Bin Laden (and then... flew his body all the way across the nation to 'another' body of water and dumped his body... 9_9)), such is not consistency.
One needn't go that far back in time honestly. Gaddafi and Saddam were both (conveniently) killed following the successful infiltration and overthrow or invasion of their respective nations. Those who believe that such has been for the best tend not to have ever been resident of North Africa or the Middle East (opinion engineering is effective). Again, however, I digress.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I would argue that we are not digressing far off-topic. Talking about how rules in morality and law should be set is a substantial part of the concept púnishment.
So you are saying that people need to be logical within their own ruleset and then you would talk about consistency, is that correct?
I would agree on that I still remember nailing a Steemian on the definition of consensus that he provided himself (climate change debate).
I will write about Kant some time soon. I feel like he is part of the reason we see lawmaking as it is today. Ofc I explained his theory in my biased words pointing out the flaws, he did not say it like that.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I am more than willing to delve into the meta, if you feel so inclined.
I would also agree that such is fundamentally relevant to the discussion even if it did not originate upon this level.
Besides, being 'nailed' on a definition at this level would simply indicate a need for improvement, either in my delivery or of my understanding of the concept. Either way, I could only stand to benefit from the experience. ;c)
I appreciate your clarification that Kant's words were a little different. While words do not always perfectly convey the meaning intended, one's choice of wording remains important nonetheless.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
That is a well thought out reply and thank you for taking the time.
I suggest that the emotional self is the one that demands punishment but it is not strong enough to maintain vigor to enact it. I personally do not think in a case such as this I would be able to do as such and since I am not a supporter of the death penalty or taking a life if it can be preserved, I would not demand someone else, state or whoever to perform for me.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
The death penalty is a theme that I have found myself revisiting on multiple occasions as part of my reflections upon the power-consolidating legal processes of state. As such I've had a fair amount of opportuntiy to think my thoughts through. ^_^
Agreed. The emotional self is the aspect that is more likely to act "with passion" and exact retribution if afforded a chanel to do so.
There is a high probability that once the initial passion of initiation subsides that the individual will cool and even recoil at what s/he would have begun and either abandon the effort or seek or conclude swiftly.
There is a possibility however that the act will either awaken darker aspects unknown to the self - or otherwise set up a self-sustaining process of sadistic pleasure - as after all - hatred may be defined as that state where one derives happiness from the misfortune of the subject concerned - and combined with a high dose of rage - all bets could be off in terms of that "justice-seeker" retaining his or her humanity in dealing out what s/he feels to be justified.
Alternatively the "passion" could subside and a cold-calculating curiosity might instead grip the heart of the "justice-seeker" - which is likely to turn out just as bad, or worse.
Do either of these scenes sound like those of a person of sound mind?
No - no it does not. And lusting to enlist somebody else's services to commit the deed for the self, or even wishing to spectate upon such is still to exist upon that spectrum.
The persons may need psychological help...
As once one begins to make exceptions where morales are concerned...
...well... one's morals are no longer consistent - and therein lies a greater danger than any killer within a cell.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It is after 4 am so I will not respond 'well' but, I feel that the human mind can overcome a hell of a lot of adversity. The worst experiences can be healed without adding to a chain of violence. However, most cannot see this as in their own experience, it is the way of the world.
The slippery slope is indeed a risk for any that step to the edge and I would err in forgiveness and jail time over punishment. The question of free will also arises on both sides of the equation and the assumption of guilt is based upon the assumption of control. A broken mind, is just that, broken. Should someone with epilepsy be punished because they refuse to control their body?
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It was getting late enough for me also so I well understand your meaning (Steemit is a little addictive - and I should be doing other things...). :c)
When a person is immersed within a poorly environment without a better point of reference, that environment is for him or her the norm and thus is far less likely to question it.
Fortunately in this ever more connected World it is increasingly difficult to avoid such points of reference and while many a mind will remain closed - others will explore the alien possibilities.
This is a subject that I hope to address in the future but I do believe that remaining consistent in one's ways is paramount. If one feels inclined to make exceptions for this or that reason then either the nature or the extent of the "justice" concerned may be non-optimal - thus implying that exploration of a new equilibrium may be in order.
A person who is psychologically impaired or compelled to commit acts is a person who is a danger to society. While a condition may be viewed as a factor external to the individual for as far as choice is concerned - there should remain an element of accountability.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Yes, I am not saying they should walk free but I wonder if with the development of mental understanding, in the future there will be technological solutions to alter, repress or change certain aspects of the brain. Until then, lock them up humanely for to treat them otherwise is to lose humanity in ourselves.
I was just replying to @thatgermandude about the blind societal aspects to revenge and it is closely linked to that of honor killings in some communities.
This is an interesting topic, however horrible, and I am glad that you have taken the time to get into it a bit with me :)
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
That would make for the rise of an interesting set of options.
Technically we already have interesting options open to us.
I really wish that I had the time to fully immerse myself in this subject with both yourself and @thatgermandude, but I should be working on something else right now. :cP
That and I nuked my voting power over the past 24 hours. ^_^;;;
Incidentally I'd like to take this opportunity to urge readers to resteem this topic (I can only resteem once). Its a very intriguing subject. :c)
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Revenge can never be satisfying, no matter how cruel the inflicted pain upon the target. I recall the poignant scene in the Iliad, when having ripped Hektor's throat open, Achilles ties the carcass to his chariot to drag around because Achilles' fury could not be assuaged. We can clone a thousand, tens of thousands, of the target of our intended vengeance to repeatedly kill, maim, and torture; and it would not be enough because the kills and pains do not grant what we truly want - resurrection of our lost love. All vengeance are hollow.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Well, I guess a good way to start s to say that I think literal lifelong prison sentences are worse than an execution. I don't speak from personal experience so this is more of guess than fixed knowledge.
I just imagine living a fake live behind bars for eternity to be worse than just ending it.
The concept of revenge is often present and toxic in juristiction, however German law often focuses on repairing damages and not paying out money for "emotional damage". That is why you rarely see Germans suing a Starbucks for burning their tongue on the coffee.
(This also has downsides, but thats a whole new topc)
In my opinion it is unrealistic to get the concept of revenge out of humankind. Like you said, if someone were to kill my parents, my brother or close friends
I will want to make sure he suffers. I don't need him dead or physically punished, but I won't let someone take injustice to my loved ones "for free".
All this said our modern laws often focus way to much on this punishing aspect, especially silly when it comes to crimes without a victim. People also tend to get swollowed by their emotions when they call for the killing of a convict.
I actually started watching the Korean drama "Stranger" or "Forest of Secrets". And (small spoiler) I cried at the moment when the old woman grabbed a stone to kill the alleged Murderer of her son, but then stopped when she saw the young wife of the convict and their new born child parting from him in tears.
Kinda cheesy, but it really got me. Those Koreans actually now how to act, who would have thought?
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
It is a complex topic on a few levels and I find that there is a lot of conflict within, especially when it comes to the 'religious' aspects of it where often the people most bent on revenge are the religious. Not always though of course but I find this contrary to their belief in a god who will punish the guilty in the after life. Perhaps it is impatience.
With all of the nonsense in the world however, I think it is a topic worth investigating for the individual rather than blindly supporting whatever societal view is held. Doing that leads to similar psychological positioning as honor killings and the like.
I used to watch a lot of foreign language films in Australia but hardly ever now.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Yeah my main crux with some religious people is the notion of punishment/avoiding punishment being much more important than actual reasoning.
Speaking of punishment, I would really appreciate if you could give me an opinion about my most recent post. I want to start flagging a Rep 60 spammer, but I might sound very tiki-torchy in this post.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
Needing revenge is an open wound. The process of getting even will be different for everyone. For me, I could torture a criminal for a very long time. I would be willing to give my life for such an opportunity. Call me sick, but crimes against a loved one requires revenge as I see it. Public executions are extreme.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
The problem is where is the line for crimes against,. Is it eye for an eye or will the justice meted out be heavier depending on the proximity of the loved one?
I can't see myself doing it but I know many such as yourself that may.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I personally respect that you have chosen to be candid and forthright about your views even if I may not agree with some of them.
This level of transparency should be promoted upon all levels - as the alternative is a game of cloak and dagger and second guessing the true designs of one's fellow woman or man.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
In my personal opinion. We must kill the criminal in front of people and without mercy. Because it has two benefits:
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
I am unsure if the act would satisfy the loss of a a loved one and there are always more who will murder.
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit
In many ways then, it appears that we as humans are innately forgiving - right? otherwise how could we show leniency in any case involving such atrocities
Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
Submit