I'm starting to get annoyed with accounts reposting my and other photographer's work for their profit. After a discussion I had with @photo-trail, who, as a number of other accounts, had previously reposted my photos without my consent, I have to raise this issue with the Steemit community.
Let me make a comparison, so you get my point.
One of the winners of @jamtaylor's photo contest, proudly taken by me.
Expenses: Time and Money
| Photographer | @photo-trail (and similar accounts) | |
|---|---|---|
| Photo equipment | $500-$50,000 | $0 |
| Travel expenses | A couple of dollars to thousands | $ 0 |
| Location rent / Model payment | Nothing to thousands of dollars | $0 |
| Chance of getting a fist up your face (street photography) | 0-100% | 0% |
| Time to take a good photo | Hours to weeks | 0 hours |
| Photo experience to take a good photo | Thousands of hours | 0 hours |
| Professional post processing software | Hundreds of dollars | $0 |
| Time to post process a photo | 10 minutes to an hour | 0 hours |
| Time to publish a photo | 10 minutes | An hour to gather some other people's photos |
| Profits | $0 | Hundreds of dollars: Link, Link |
So my question is: Did people upvote the photos in @photo-trail's post or his copy-pasting skills? If people upvoted the photos, then why is @photo-trail taking the profits from other people's work?
Don't get me wrong. Curation services are great. But just as any gallery, the curator should take a percentage on the sale and a big chunk should go to the author of the work of art. And I don't see this happening.
Here is an alphabetical list of photographers, whose work was "featured" in the last couple of posts by @photo-trail and received (to my knowledge) nothing from the profits. There are other accounts, which do the same, of course.
@adriansky
@alisawonderland
@allmonitors
@apprenticeoflife
@bitbuddha
@bragih
@brumest
@clodoweg
@cottonlazarus
@deanliu
@digitalis
@dolphinstudios
@dreamstream
@dxxxr
@ekavieka
@emanuellindqvist
@ericoliveira
@evildeathcore
@eyemapuppet
@foxkoit
@georgian
@gintama
@homeartpictures
@jasonrussell
@johndogett
@jsantana
@kommienezuspadt
@lightenup
@lighteye
@madlenfox
@maestroali
@marinauzelac
@markfitzgerald
@max28
@myroadtours
@omrusman
@outerground
@pm-me-your-dog
@restyler
@roytc123
@rushpictures
@shieha
@soonidrift
@tecnosgirl
@twogirls1planet
@unhorsepower777
I hope I can start a discussion and see what other photographers think. Thank you for taking the time to read my rant, and I'll be grateful for a resteem, so this issue can reach a wider audience.
I think Curator's job is to bring to limelight anything that's not yet seen by a wider community. In this regard, I think @photo-trail is doing their job.
Also by asking you permission to post this image and giving credit/ link to your main post I think they are maintaining a level of decorum as well. I could see in that comment that the moment you rejected their offer and they did not hustle you further, there seems to be certain standards in their approach.
All this being said, their work can come into scrutiny if:
Taking a neutral stance, I don't think I'd completely agree with your thoughts on revenue sharing - it is their post after-all! Although, in my own opinion what you have mentioned would be the best (and right) thing to do by @photo-trail.
In case you have not already done this, can you please try to open a discussion with them either in discord or steem.chat or however possible to tell them why this revenue sharing will work out much better than what they are currently doing. I think if they offer to share their revenue, they would be able to get much more quality pics featured and hence higher chance of revenue.
I think using their follower power to feature your work should be reciprocated both ways; the terms can always be mutually agreed upon. If they disagree, I see an opportunity here! You can consider setting up a trail and make the most of this situation.
Apologies if this view of mine does not sound appropriate to you. But thought I will chip in anyway ;)
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I see what you mean, but you should consider the difference between attribution and copyright.
Atrribution always has to be given, otherwise it's considered plagiarism. This is not what we are discussing.
Using other people's content without their consent is only OK under "fair use", e.g. using a couple of screenshots from a movie, because you are reviewing a movie.
Since @photo-trail is not using photographers' content under such circumstances, but reposting their work in its entirety, he should ask for their permission. He didn't used to, but now he does.
Now comes copyright - he cannot take profits for other people's work, unless he has a contract with them.
He can, however, post links to other people's work. Would he receive hundreds of dollars for a page of links? I don't think so - but he may try, and if he is successful, then all is legal and he has earned his money.
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This is not what copyright is.
If they already have a permission to publish, it doesn't matter if they make money from it.
If as an artist you want to get a share, you negotiate your price and then sell the publishing rights for that price.
A free publication (which photo-trail essentially is) is not legally obligated to share their revenues with you (or even buy the publishing rights from you), especially if you have already given them permission to publish your photos. Copyright simply doesn't automatically entitle anyone to royalties, it is only a tool to help you negotiate those royalties.
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Who is "they" in "If they already have a permission to publish, it doesn't matter if they make money from it."? If you mean @photo-trail, then sure - if you don't care someone is making money from your work and you've explicitly allowed it, all is fine. However, I and the photographers here did not allow republishing of our work for other people's profits, yet @photo-trail is republishing our work for personal gain.
"If as an artist you want to get a share, you negotiate your price and then sell the publishing rights for that price." - I don't understand your point here, either? You don't sell your copyright - this work is yours. You only negotiate others using your work for profit - be it shared profit, or them making money on your back.
"A free publication (which photo-trail essentially is)..." - yes, @photo-trail is not taking my money to publish my work (is this what you call "free"?), but is making money from my work, without my permission. This is illegal.
"...is not legally obligated to share their revenues with you (or even buy the publishing rights from you), especially if you have already given them permission to publish your photos." - I've not given permission, and they do not have the right to make money from my work. Even if I give permission, which should be in the form of a written contract (and I dare you to find one), they are obligated to share their revenue with me, unless I've given them permission to post my work for their own personal profit. Which I and the other photographers, haven't given to them.
"Copyright simply doesn't automatically entitle anyone to royalties, it is only a tool to help you negotiate those royalties." - Copyright means you have the right to this work of art. If there's someone interested in your work (like @photo-trail), they should engage in negotiations with you. If you like what is offered, you agree with them reposting your work. You can agree to share the profit, you can also agree to have them take all the profit, which is what you are obviously keen on doing.
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@@ -553,16 +553,17 @@
ou give
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photo-tr
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I personally think it's pretty messed up. If he had asked for consent from everyone and set up an agreement with each of the photographers to credit them and also share the profits, then I think it would be fine. But, just blatantly taking the pictures everyone has shared and then posting them himself with no consent is fucked.
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At first, I thought that @photo-trail was meant to give exposure to photographers, but if they were only thinking about promoting and supporting the photographers in our community, they should have declined post payouts (or as you say set up an agreement with each one of them).
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I agree. The thing is, everyone is here for the money. If @photo-trail declined post payouts, then why do it in the first place?
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Yeah, you are right.
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You right and on point...!
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Agreed
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My point exactly. Thanks for commenting!
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One of these photo reposters has been called out for copyright violations, and has since given the option of showing a link only.
I don't like these photo reposters at all. There are a few who, with good intentions, show undervalued content only, but apart from that, they are just making money with other people's work and mostly don't even ask permission for it, and they don't even share rewards.
I generally don't like this meta stuff; if you want to make money, produce your own content. There are only a few people here who can reuse my photos without my permission, and they know who they are. Anybody else doing it is violating my copyrights.
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Agree
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Agree 100% and I support you for any action taken
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My thoughts exactly, I agree with you @ocrdu. Thank you for taking the time to comment!
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I agree, such freebooting accounts should not be getting rewarded for using other people's content in this manner.
There's the resteem option which works nicely already. If you want to introduce your followers to good photo-content, just resteem it.
It's too bad you can't add a comment to the things you resteem though.
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I agree, it would be better if we had the option to comment on what we resteem. Thanks for commenting! :)
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Yeah...resteeming is ok
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You raise a real point there @dek. What did @photo-trail say when you were discussing this with them?
I like the fact that they resteem the posts, but yes, they making a killing on the "daily photo" compilations they put together. maybe they should like take 30% of the post's profit and then split the remaining 70% between the photographers by sending them the SBD?
Just my 2c ;)
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He asked me how I'd like to be featured on his daily selection. I asked what are the advantages of being featured, as I only see benefits for him. He said that he will no longer bother me with his service. You can see the comments under a recent post of mine.
I agree with your point - curation should be rewarded, but so should the authors.
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Ah, I see. Only a temporary solution though :(
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Photographers should get the post reward split... after the curators cut
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Exactly! And their work should only be reposted with their permission.
The blockchain is useful in copyright disputes - you can easily prove you're the owner, as you posted the photo first.
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You right...
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I think that nobody has the right to use my work (or any other photographer's work) without a written permission. Especially for profit. I believe @nspart brought this up as well.
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Aha! So there's already a widespread disgruntlement on this issue! Interesting and thanks for sharing your view!
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If he was offering to increase viewing of your work by including a link to you and your work, it could benefit you. But...as what is becoming the normal mindset of society today...so many want to make money and do nothing to earn it.
Yes, I have a steemit account...it's not even worth $2.50...lol...I enjoy everyone's posts and the interaction. I may not post everyday, but MS drains the body and mind.
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I'm only here for two weeks and one of my pictures was used in one of those. although the list dude made not much money of it, he did at least ten times more then me. And I didn't get a SINGLE extra vote. so yeah ...
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Rather disappointing really, yes. Downvoting is always an option.
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Well, I actually said 'thnx man', because I thought it would give me some exposure .... haha :(
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Haha :) There's nothing wrong with trying!
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As long as no consent was given it's wrong, in my case @photo-trail did ask for my consent last time.
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I agree. But the image is yours - did you receive part of the profit?
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No I don't think so, and I've also started noticing other people making similar "best photos of the day" posts and profiting...
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Do you know of any feature accounts that DO share the profits with the artists?
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I've not heard of any such generous people. You might consider the contest accounts, such as @jamtaylor, who offers prizes :)
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You figured it very correctly, i admire your picking ability.
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Hi @dek
I read a post recently by berniesanders on this, with particular regard to the -trail accounts. I see this post has been flagged out of existence, and bernie has left (?) steemit recently. I'm not keen on these accounts personally, but that's about all i'm going to say about it for now.
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@berniesanders is no longer on steemit? Is that the reason why?
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I don't know sorry. I think his SP has been moved to other accounts, so perhaps the presence has not left. Seems a touchy subject and one I'm not authority on or wishing to be involved in, just thought I'd mention it as your post relates. Cheers :)
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I understand, thank you!
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Ouch... I'd heard negative opinions about the *-trail accounts for some time, but I thought they at least gave some of the rewards to the authors.
IF they think just giving them "exposure" is enough, and won't respect the author's opinions in the matter, I do think it's time we take out the downvote gatling gun.
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I agree. Although the more we feed them, the harder it would be to downvote their posts.
Thanks for commenting, @pbock!
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True, that.
The best thing would be to educate everyone to the fact the artists and photographers aren't getting a penny on the curation posts they make, and hope they realize they have to actually go upvote the artists content too if they want to truly support them.
No problemo. I think your photos are amazing, so I kinda had to comment about this injustice, or it wouldn't feel right :)
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I agree, although all my photos that I link from my Flickr account are licensed CC-By. Even I can see the problem for those whose photos get used without their permission.
Anyway, I don't publicly mention the fact on Steem, that my photos are freely licensed, because I want to retain some control over how they get shared here however illusive it might in reality be.
I would however welcome it if everyone who shared my photos, would link back to my page so others can come and see my creations in context, and possibly upvote them. I don't mind if someone makes a profit off them, but I'd prefer at least some form of attribution.
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Attribution is not worth much on Steemit. People click on new content and then everything goes into oblivion.
Case in point - few people would open the links under the photos, featured on one of these copy pasted posts, to upvote the original post by the author. Instead, they upvote the post containing all the photos and move on to something else.
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I wouldn't think those people really are my target audience then. There are still, few who do click the picture anf leave a vote or a comment or better yet, follow. Those are the people I want to have a dialog with, they are the "true fans" who come for more even if the others were just skimming through. They are the bread and butter of an artist, not the passers-by.
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I agree, but these people are few. I've posted about this - most users rarely take the time to read the content, instead they upvote anything posted by certain users, whose posts usually get high payouts (for a high curator fee).
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Yes yes, they are few, but we can't expect the majority to seek us out anyway because of a couple of shots they saw, say in a magazine, either. It's always just those few who are interested in doing exactly that. Most of them just buy the magazine, and if you don't especially have a royalty deal with the mag you don't see that money either.
I don't really care if someone profits off my work, I care about the attribution, so that those few, who find themselves liking my stuff (and not just some collection) might come to me.
I do however understand your point. In the words of a great band Queen, You want it all. I'm just saying we can't have it all.
Oh, and reading the latest @photo-trail DPS, they didn't show the photos of those artists who didn't want theirs to be shown. That's all fine, until you realize people are definitely not going to click those links, because they don't know what to expect. (Happened when I was watching the post, I did however click through those I saw I liked and upvoted and followed them.
So I would definitely ask them to display my photo for exposure. Obscurity, not exposure (not even unwanted or unrewarded exposure), is an artists worst enemy. Exposure (as in visible photos) bring more clicks than some links, no matter how clever the accompanying note.
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So you're willing to give almost all profits from your work to some account, which has gained the little popularity it has by exploiting your fellow photographers' work, just so you become a tiny bit more famous?
Sure, it's a choice!
BTW, on the comment of "You want it all" - all I want is fair use of intellectual property. So I can pay for other people's intellectual property. And you can't buy that with fame.
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Nope, I'm just willing to accept that nothing in life is "fair".
I can be fair, maybe you can be fair, but not everyone is. Oh, and I should also add that there is no way to please everybody however fair you want to be.
To me personally, it is not a problem though. I can navigate these waters.
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There's a legal term "fair use of intellectual property", which is properly defined, especially on legal agreements on sites like YouTube, for example. I don't use "fair" as in fair according to each individual, but"fair" as in legal terminology.
In other words, you can use bits of other people's work to illustrate your point, but not repost other people's work in its entirety for personal profit (unless the author has agreed to give away his work for free). Otherwise this is violating international copyright laws.
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Even though your are CC, no one has the right to represent that the images belong to them and enter them in competitions and the like! That is happening in terrible proportions on here!
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Yes it does happen, but plagiarism wasn't the issue, it was accounts like @photo-trail re-posting other people's content with attribution and linking back but not sharing the revenues.
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That's not good either! I believe I followed him and signed up, having no idea what it was about!
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What's the problem? If you "signed up" you likely knew the posts would be upvoted as a result. If you had no idea on what you were doing, any perceived loss is on you, and not the one you gave permission to publish your photos. Blame yourself for not taking the time to understand what you were doing.
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Well, I was brand new a week ago and stupid! And I do blame myself, if it makes you feel any better!LOL!
In any case, I may just have followed him! I have learned a lot about the bad stuff that is going on here and intend to fight it!
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I wonder what happened. My post just got garbled.
If it makes you feel better you have not lost anything. You are still gaining followers, upvotes and rewards at a same growing pace no matter how some accounts share them.
Your popularity will most likely keep on growing, and if you won't cry wolf too often, it may soar.
Just look at some of the most successful accounts on Steem, have you ever seen them cry about people benefiting from their work? I would bet not.
There is no real reason to get upset about what happens on the Internet. It's always been a sharing economy, and it's always most benefited those who didn't go after their audience. Less can be said of those who started attacking their fans or those who showcased them. Internet can be a cruel enemy.
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That's OK. That's your opinion, and I respect that. Making money is not my main focus, but it's nice to do! I have always stood up for what is right. If that makes me unpopular, then let it be so. The world is full of good people who watch and do nothing, but just complain.
Just because things are the way they are on the Internet, does not mean that I have to accept that standard. If I stood back and was silent, I would not be who I am.
Some of my peers are being badly ripped off on here, and they have no say in the matter. Not only are they not getting compensated when the images are used, they are not getting compensated when the posts make money!
My work is my work, and if someone steals it, I'm going to fight for my rights, just as you would fight for the right to get your car back if someone stole it! My work was never put on the Internet for SHARING! It was put on the Internet to be licensed to legitimate businesses. Just because something is on the Internet does not make it free!
When our local strip mall has a sidewalk sale, the stores put stuff outside and usually there is trust that people will bring their stuff into the store and pay for it. I would hazard a guess that the majority of the people are honest, and pay for what they want. They don't just walk away with something because it's there for SHARING, and because they can get away with it because nobody is watching!
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OMG it is really a problem, I fully support you.
Please can you try for adding your steemit water mark on the pictures?
just like professional photographers do?
I think this will make them harder to copy your work then :)
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I don't really like adding watermarks. The blockchain is a good enough proof that I was the first to post this photo :)
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Well, I have not been on Steemit long enough to have anyone steal my photos. Maybe they are not even worth stealing, but I can tell you this, since day one, the posts with photos that I have seen have almost all been scrutinized by me, as to their originality. I sometimes take the time to run them through TinEye and Google Images. If I have been fairly certain it is stolen, I have flagged the posts. If legit photographers did this en-mass it might make a dent? I don't know. I'm still new. It is a serious problem, and it needs a solution. The heath of the Steemit community depends on it.
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I'm impressed that you took the time to do it! Good job :)
Indeed, original content here seems to be decreasing with the increasing price of Steem. No worries in this respect - its value will soon drop to its previous levels :)
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Nice !
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Thank you, let's hope we can start a good discussion.
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great question
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Let's hope others think so and chime in!
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You did well bringing this issue up as steemit seriously frowns on copying other peoples work or plagiarism without consent. It hurts I can feel your pain. Nice you shared this...
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And I appreciate your comment, thank you!
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welcome... because of this i wrote a long post for new members/minnows and will publish for them tomorow where i advice them against such...also check my post today on male versus women brains plus that of family versus office...lets support one another...thanks
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Fabulous! Thanks for saying that! I'm a stock photographer and found my image on the very first day I joined last week in the very first post I read. The post (by, it seems, a very high profile member here) made over $1,000 too! In spite of his being tagged several times, he has not contacted me.
I feel your pain. Like any professional, I have spent may thousands of dollars in equipment and education, and it was not so that others could profit from my work!
I have just posted a quick post under #copyright, as I have called out a few new people over the last couple of days for entering stock images in the daily challenges! I'm going to do an in depth post on Monday.
Glad to have found you. I'm following you. I have Resteemed and Upvoted (for what it is worth.)
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I'm glad you think the same way - thank you for resteeming and upvoting. Following you back - and I will check out your copyright post! :)
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Just wondering... did you ever got a fist up your face (street photography) ? 😊
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Not really. But I have startled, confused and annoyed quite some people for taking their shot. I'm a rather big guy and most people won't bother engaging me in an actual fight. I try not to take advantage of this - I can pretty much shoot anyone and get away with some swearing, but I'm trying to be mindful of whom I shoot.
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