What would Smart Ballots and Kamikaze voters mean to Democracy?

in politics •  8 years ago 

Democracy is filled with mythology. Larken Rose has recently covered many of these myths. Today I would like to introduce a new concept that may totally change how some people perceive democracy.

Voting Theory

Popular political theology around voting is that each individual has the right to vote for anything, for any reason, and in complete secrecy. Education, knowledge, race, and inelegance are not legitimate prerequisites. It goes so far as to say that through voting the entire constitution and every human right can be violated.

There are many different kinds of voting that attempt to capture public opinion accurately. Systems include plurality, instant runoff, majority, and proportional representation. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses.

Being an Anarchist, I like to work from first principles. If I assume the popular political theology is morally acceptable means of making decisions regarding what people may or may not do, then I would like to add a new voting system and means of fully “expressing ones vote” that I feel would truly capture a legitimate outcome.

In other words, if all people are equal and entitled equal weight to vote for what ever they want, for what ever reason they want to, then it should be possible to express your opinion as the exact opposite of someone else. This is a perfectly valid opinion and deserves as much respect as their opinion. After all, you could just as easily say that they are the one who is adopting an opinion opposite to your own. It is not possible to say who is positive and who is negative, they are merely reflections of equal value with no beginning and no end.

The act of negating someone else’s opinion does not require you to know their opinion, because you are free to change your opinion to counter theirs as fast as they can change their opinion. The outcome will always result in a net vote of 0.

Anarchist Husband and his Political Wife

Imagine an anarchist named John adopted a position against voting and was against voting completely. Unfortunately for Jared, he married a hard core political activist who believes in democracy.

John and his wife have a huge fight about whether they should vote and if so, who they should vote for. John recognizes that the only two candidates with a chance of winning are evil and agree on the important issues. John’s wife has an opinion on which one is “less evil”.

John wants to protest the election by not voting, but his wife believes she must do something to combat the more evil option.

John then comes up with an idea, he decides to cast his vote to be the exact opposite of his wife’s. He goes to his wife and asks who she is voting for, she tells him. He then informs her that he will vote for the other candidate.

A brief fight ensues about how the other guy is more evil, but ultimately she concedes that he has a right to vote how ever he wants.

After she accepts reality, John suggests that they can both stay home this election because their votes will now cancel out. They could drive to the polls, spend their time and gas money in order to cast a neutral vote for two evil candidates, or they could stay home and have a drink without feeling dirty for supporting the lessor of two evils.

Any rational couple would choose to stay home. They have nothing to gain by casting opposing votes and nothing to lose by not casting their vote. All of the usual arguments for voting fall apart:

You have no right to complain if you didn’t try.

Well that isn’t true, you did try, but someone else negated your vote. Both parties can legitimately say they “tried” but their vote wouldn’t have been the tie breaker.

Higher turnout makes democracy more representative .

Well you both could have turned out, but the amount of raw information you would contribute would be identical to if you both didn’t show up. If every non-voter was modeled as a purely random voter, then the amount your opposing votes do nothing. If you model non-voter’s as voting with the ratio as voters then the only thing your votes would do is reduce the percentage spread between the two candidates by an imperceptible amount.

Even a vote for a third Party can have an impact

Unless there is a 3rd party who you actually can support, all you would be doing is voting for evil. Suppose John’s wife really liked a 3rd party candidate, she is now left with a choice: let John vote for the most evil candidate while she votes for someone who will lose, or not vote at all.

Voting is a Right Generations Struggled to Win

And based upon this right John and his wife have nullified their influence. It is John’s right to oppose his wife’s vote and therefore his wife’s vote is now meaningless. Democracy wins!

Secret Ballots prevent John’s Blackmail

In theory John’s wife could lie to John about who she intends to vote for. This would make it impossible to be 100% sure the he was countering his wife’s vote. She could “trick him” into inadvertently siding with her choice of lessor evil.

This is true, but John could also lie.

Ultimately the joke is on John’s wife because it isn’t who votes that counts, it is who counts the vote. In this case, the secret ballot means that John’s wife cannot prove her vote was accurately counted.

Unfortunately, secret ballots also prevent John from casting his true opinion and thus effectively deny him the right to vote.

Smart Ballots

What if John could express his desire to counter his wife’s vote by casting a ballot that would automatically vote for the candidate opposite of his wife without having to know her vote? In this case there is no need to reveal who you will vote for and there is no ability to cheat.

If you could cast such a ballot then the entire voting system could be revamped. Each person would have the option to either cast a ballot or to negate someone else’s right to cast a ballot. Once you have been negated no one else may negate you.

Those who are politically outspoken would quickly get negated by people who don’t like what they stand for. After all, it is much easier to vote against something you don’t like than to vote for something you do like. This means that anyone that ever expresses any ideas disliked by a passive observer would get nullified.

The final outcome would be an election decided by those who have managed to escape without offending anyone. One thing is for certain, anyone who goes near the polls would be quickly negated by someone else, the mere act of voting would become offensive!

In a Rational World…

People would realize that democracy and voting were adopted as a proxy for war and violence. Rather than having two armies fight to the death, they would simply count their numbers and assume the larger army would win and get their way. This seems logical and avoids a lot of unnecessary bloodshed.

How you count the votes makes a huge difference, especially when there are complex factors and decisions. You cannot assume that everyone voting for a candidate actually supports that candidate, they have merely formed an alliance under the principle of “an enemy of my enemy is my friend”. That principle hardly turns a lessor enemy into your representative.

In reality there are not two armies battling it out, there are thousands of armies each with their own opinion. If you want to properly simulate the war, then each person needs to find one other person to take out in a Kmakazi battle to the death.

When the dust settles from the simulated war you will have a few people left standing. These are the people whom no one else felt was a priority to take out. Each person would rationally take out the “greatest evil” they could find and everyone else is considered better. It would mean that who ever won the war would be “better” than the evil they just eliminated. A true vote against the greatest of all evils.

Obviously, if this process were adopted the entire mirage of democracy would disappear. If the population was odd, then one person would be left standing, if even then no one would win.

Conclusion

If we were to use a legitimate voting system that accurately reflected the moral principle behind each individuals “right to vote” by allowing individuals to fully express their “right to counter someone else’s vote” then we would end up in complete anarchy as no law could pass except by unanimous consent of people no one had reason to oppose.

If man does not have a right to counter balance another man in the political system, then the game is rigged. His right to cast a vote that expresses his wishes has been denied. He has been given a false choice rather than a free choice. After all, if you cannot express a vote that is exactly opposite of someone else, then that means not all opinions are on the table. It means that the people who get to decide the options are the rulers, not the voters.

You can vote for any color car you want so long as it is black.

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My brilliant friend used anarchy at the end
Did you not mean chaos since you are an anarchist
This is meant as a correction and not to offend
Contrary to my name I too am an anarchist

You have spun voting in a very deep and meaningful way
This leaves me with not much left to add or much left to say
On this I now must wander off and have some serious think
If I don't then the swirling CHAOS in my head will cause me to drink

I am interested how this will all play out for steemit
I know you are pondering various ways indeed to fix it
It being the voting and the negative perceptions it may cause
Replacing it with something that may enable tensions to thaw

Sometimes my alter-ego above can say some deep things in rhyme. Sometimes that is no easy task. Especially with how quickly I attempt to respond.

What I was getting at was simply that Anarchy is often confused with being the same thing as Chaos. As an Anarchist descending into anarchy is a good thing. :) Descending into Chaos is a completely different story.

then we would end up in complete anarchy as no law could pass

Though that is being nit picky and technically even if you leave anarchy your sentence could be true, for what is a "Law" in Anarchy other than Natural Law?

VERY VERY good post. Very deep, incredibly well thought out. I don't know that I've ever seen someone so thoroughly dissect voting. You have given me a lot to think about and I may have to read that a few more times.

Haha wow, you must be one of the first novelty accounts I've seen around here. Awesome poetry!

Thanks. I did it on a whim one day and it just sort of fit.
It kind of flipped a switch and unleashed something.
Whether that is good or not is still up for debate.
I do think there can be too much of a good thing so I try to limit how much I post each day with him.

What is really sad is I am REALLY long winded. There are a few cases where the poetry that just kind of spontaneously came out was a better and more well thought out response than anything I could write as the person I really am. :)

So I think I'll keep him around. There are some truly awesome poets on steemit. They put a lot more work into their work than I do these quick responses.

It is the spontaneous nature I am curious about. It makes me think things I might not if I had time to overthink it.

Yes it is weird too. Yet my introductory post announced I am a weird person. ;)

They put a lot more work into their work than I do these quick responses.

They probably do and they probably make blogposts about it. But for quickly coming up with it, it was pretty good, and very fitting as a comment!

I can't wait for @drawsyourcontent, @readsyourcomment with a soundcloud player in the comment or something similar. There are many opportunities for some quality content through novelty accounts, can't wait to see more of them! :)

Someone responded to my poem with a poem once and I thought "Wow! this guy is good" and thought I might have to hang up my hat and let them take over. It turns out they'd simply copied some text from a South Park episode and pasted it in response to me. :) If they are going to use South Park to talk to me... I'm all for that!

Do it. Become one of those people. :)

Yeah it is surprisingly quite fun to try to come up with poems fast that are relevant to the conversation. So far my favorite one is one where I managed to hold a conversation across three posts about crypto currency versus the US dollar (fiat) and the corruption and history of the federal reserve. That one I went back and read and thought "where the hell did that come from?" That's pretty fun, and exhilarating when something like that happens.

Haha, south park is awesome. But I feel people could at least use > to or " to show its a quote from somewhere when responding that way.

Maybe even adding a small picture in the comment related to it would also be awesome to see more of in general.

They included a picture from the episode which is the only reason I thought to go do a search.

Oh and thanks... novelty accounts sounds so much better than WEIRDO. :)

I think imo ofc the term anarchy is equated to chaos but couldnt be further from the truth but we all interpret reality in dif ways

Anarchy and chaos were roofied by the state
They got involved some photos, it was too late
Now the hijacked word has been pointed
They want you to believe the state is anointed

The state has fun with hijacking words
Do you expect more from the repulsive turds?

Just as with @larkenrose, my mind is blown by reading stuff like that...I am, firstly, amazed that I have not thought about ti myself and did not question the process myself. If I, an educated, intelligent [heh] man, did not..why would most of the population ever question the status quo.
Thank you for this and awaiting the next episode: a possible solution.

Very interesting. There's a whole branch of economics where they talk about voting theory; I wonder if anybody is studying the concept of smart ballots. Voting theory itself sort of hit an impasse a while ago when Kenneth Arrow proved that there is no fair voting system that satisfies certain obviously-desirable principles. It could be that smart ballots are a way around it...

Anyway, I don't expect you to much like my ideas this time around, but maybe you can come tell me why my anti-anarchy parable is flawed.

I think I get your point, but I'd say that first, not everyone always feels like they are voting for the lesser of two evils. For example, my take on the upcoming election s that Hillary represents the 'establishment' but so did Obama, and I thought he did a fine job, and I think Clinton will do fine as well, and on the other hand I view Donald Trump as an absolutely distructive force who could unintentionally light the system on fire, and because I like the system more than no system, I view this potencial burning down of the system as an unadulterated bad thing.

Secondly, there are three hundred mill on people in this country, if even a violent minority wanted to bring the government down, they could. Our country has seen very low levels of political violence historicly.
This is because most people dig our democrassy most of the time imo. For example, while congresses approval ratings are in the gutter, people approve of their own congressmans performance.

I love how this hits so close to home during this upcoming election.

John and his wife have a huge fight about whether they should vote and if so, who they should vote for. John recognizes that the only two candidates with a chance of winning are evil and agree on the important issues. John’s wife has an opinion on which one is “less evil”.

To me this boils down to Trump, Hillary, and Gary Johnson. I agree with John's wife that even if you dislike both or all three candidates, you should still decide to vote on whichever candidate you find least evil.

I understand that John wishes to cancel his wife's vote, but instead of doing this, I would have hoped he would have searched his heart to find his own least evil candidate instead of just negating his wife's vote.

If this were put on a grander scale, I feel that many people would just not vote at all and I believe this is a big problem with our current system. But at the same time, those who don't vote should not pretend to be superior for saying they didn't choose the candidate in office so they are not responsible. To me, a choice not to vote is in itself a vote (if that makes sense) It is neutral, but would have made another candidates vote +1 and instead did not.

And even if you don't feel any candidates warrant your vote, I feel it is a disservice to American soldiers who gave up their lives for this right.

I do find your smart ballot proposal to be fascinating and will have to weigh my beliefs about it. I'm initially in favor, but will need time to break it don and completely formulate my thoughts.

I hope a new system gets put in place to prevent the debacle there was in Bush vs. Gore in Florida. Does anyone really know if their vote was accurately accounted for? I'm hoping the blockchain technology will be used to cover voting for future elections once it has been completely adopted by the public as the internet is today.

Since the blockchain is immutable you could see and verify exactly how your vote was processed and could integrate smart ballots as proposed.

Thanks @dantheman for a thought-provoking article that while technical, had enough analogies and examples for everyone tp understand most if not all of it.

Colin Cantrell, developer of the Nexus Project wrote a piece on Decentralized Decentralization which talks about decentralized democracies based upon the blockchain.

https://medium.com/@colincantrell/block-chain-decentralize-decentralization-318bbf355fa0#.p69sq82ln

I think you will really like the read. I think you two should connect and kick some ideas around. As a part of the Nexus team I see the solutions you guys are coding and I would like to see Steem and Steemit (OR WHATEVER IT BECOMES) on the decentralized infrastructure in the future.

I agree with your assessment 100%. Here is another thought...

Juries are oligarchies. Imagine if juries were decentralized and democratized using the blockchain. I am sure that I would trust my verdict better with 12,000 jurors than I would with 12.

Would be cool to hear @dantheman and Colin talk about blockchain solutions.

I agree. Why I brought it up. There should be a google hangout between the two... Both are incredible intelligent and i cannot even imagine some of the things that would manifest in their conversation haha

The thing about jurors is ideally you want someone not biased to be on the jury, though they do try to find jurors likely to rule how they want as well. It makes it easy to get out of being a juror if you know what they don't want to hear.

So now let's take the trending page. What if the trending page became a prevailing belief and it was actually wrong. Would the 12000 jurors be unbiased or would the be swayed by the unintentional (or possibly intentional) propaganda that they are exposed to on a regular basis? I am again playing Devil's Advocate

I don't think quantity is always a better solution. Yet I really haven't thought of a better solution yet either. :)

Quality is better then quantity. thats where the math comes in to check the checks and balance the balances.
Right now as it stands, many jurors fear they will have repercussions if they don't side with prosecution. This i believe can be balanced with the right math... The right code. Reputations should be used for such decisions as well. But you bring up a good point, what if 99% of the trending page is wrong and you are right? Where is the VETO button?

Yep the world was not flat because 99% of the people believed it to be. :)

Also, is anyone not biased?

Hence your example of finding jurors likely to respond in agreement to the desired outcome.

We all have individual priorities and things we find important or "worthy".

No there is no non-biased person. The best they usually can do is try to find jurors that don't know much about the topic. Yet that presumes the jurors are honest during the juror choosing phase.

Let me ask you this, you have 3 piles of shit to choose from. I tell you that you can only vote for 1 of 3 to hold but you voting none will still leave you with a pile of shit. Regardless of what ever decision you make you are still left with a big pile of shit. You are given the illusion of choice. That is all.!! Love the posts @dantheman!

You bring it on the point !

I say upvote this article.

upvote...upvote...upvote...make it real.

A very reasonable article, I have liked it because anything that stimulates thought is valuable.
While I totally agree that anything irrational or immoral is silly to even be voting/fighting over and that ideally everyone would agree on everything it is not anywhere close to realistic in the world that we live in.
Obviously democracy/government is a rigged system designed to divide and conquer. That is grossly corrupt and meant to CONTROL. Yet voting is not going to change that in the current system because voting is also rigged.
So if the system is rigged and the vote doesn't actually count and there is no realistic way everyone is going to agree on anything. The only thing that really makes sense is that groups of people get together in common purpose, focus on achieving that common purpose and live together in harmony. This of course also means allowing everyone else who is doing the same to live in peace, left alone in their difference. This is an "ideal" system. The constitutional republic was designed this was but obviously has failed.
The question then is when you have individuals or groups who INTENTIONALLY try to manipulate and even force others to do things......What then do you or your group do???? This is a tough question and different groups/leaders/indaviduals again respond in different ways.
Ultimately there is no real answer. Everything is relative. People are going to be passionate and going to believe and the results of that ARE going to be different.
This is what I LOVE about Steemit SO MUCH. Is that we have a lot of different people here. ALL of who are allowed to post whatever they want and they will not be forced not to post. Yet if no one likes the posts then it gets no value. Because in truth our opinions are not equal. Even if we all deserve the right to be free or be alive what we do with our freedom dictates the results. The people on here who generally get the most likes are the ones with the most influence. If the community as a whole does not like that they can either influence that or leave. Either way its transparent and fair. I really really love this model and it is a fantastic experiment to see what will happen not only as an economy but a social community.
Thanks for the post and I look forward to seeing how we interact in the future as we all evolve together~*~

When we are in a truly free and open system. Why does a down vote even matter? That is the question I've been asking myself. If 20 people like something it will say 20 votes. If 100 people like something it will say 100. A down vote skews that so you no longer actually know how many people actually like it.

There are a lot of things I don't like. I'm not particularly fond of Communism or Socialism. Yet I have no intentions of telling them they should not be able to talk about it. In fact knowing how many people DO like a topic is really the important statistic.

If we were voting for a leader, or a position perhaps then it does matter as there can be only one. Yet as far as I know in the steemit environment we are not in a "there can only be X" type of situation.

Great insights. Well, current voting system is pretty good because otherwise it could be abused very easily. Making new accounts for spammers is not difficult and if all new accounts would had big voting power, then abusing votes system would be very easy. Current system kicks those spammers out. I'd recommend to increase the number of whales although current whales are doing great works too but my point is, number of members are increasing by day which means more people will post here. Just saying my opinion.

You could remove spammers with a REPORT feature. It doesn't actually require a vote. There does need to be a way to deal with spam, plagiarism, etc. That is the crux. I think that is something different from a VOTE. Yet as I've said recently I freely admit I am kind of color blind to why we need a down vote at all. Though we do need to be able to report.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@dantheman With the way things are going, it looks like the blockchain is going to change everything. I imagine the blockchains may replace corporations and they may even replace governments.

And hence with larger government comes more corruption. Vote for this one or that one as long as they approve of the choices. Like George Carlin said, it's only an illusion of choice.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I don't think people are really voting to cancel out other ballots (well I don't and lets remember that ballots are supposed to be anonymous and if you want a peaceful familly dinner it is sometimes better to keep it that way). But since in most case a majority is required it still mean than 45% of the ballots cancel out 45 other % of the ballots...

Sure the choice is always limited you can't have a limitless number of candidate and have to chose one which matches the best your opinions and still have a chance to get elected. Also in most election there are 2 turns, first one generally more open with many candidates and a second with only 2 candidates, where smaller candidates with no chance to win but still having many ballots can negociate with the bigger candidates to get some representation in governments.

Also in some instance too many candidates can be disastrous, we had a presidential election in 2002 in France (I think) where the different current from the left presented so many candidates that at the second turns, all the candidates from the left were eliminated and people ended with a second turn between the traditional right and the far right (and ended with a president elected from traditional right elected with around 95% of the ballots... because no one wanted of a far right president). So this is also something which can happen if too many tendencies are represented, you might just end up with a much worst outcome (in some countries like spain, belgium, in absence of a majority, no government can be formed at all.

Finally an election is like making a "collective" decision. You weight the right and wrong of each possible decision and settle for one. That's exactly the same...

I have always equated Anarchy with a Road Warrior type of chaos and survival of the fittest.
I am very new to Steem and it seems that some dont think that would be the case.
Very interesting theory I will think about some.
I dont really agree with the premis of this post, but I do find it interesting.
I'll check back for more.

I'm not going to upvote this post. Is someone else agree with me? I'm waiting for you all. Or maybe you saw my upvote, but maybe I will change it and let you upvote this alone, who knows? We will find out soon.

Huh? Agree with you about what. I think it is well written, and pretty deep. It is worthy of an up vote regardless of any opinions about who wrote it. Which I personally have respect for the person. I'd up vote this post for a purely unknown, so why should I not do the same for a known?

@dantheman, like the fundamentals of the idea. My simpler thought for the coming U.S. Presidential Election is a "non of the above" choice.

If non of the above wins the popular vote, then we need to redraw new candidates and vote again. It's a novel thought, as flawed as it may be.

Non of the above, sadly, currently has my vote!

I would like to see an option to vote "against the winner". If there are more people against the winner than the margin of victory then all candidates should be discarded and a new slate selected.

Something as simple as having the option to cast a vote "against X" would completely change the game. Now the winner would be the person who received the least votes!

I would be happy with a simple law that allowed one individual to give up their vote by canceling out someone else. That single law would completely change politics forever.

Voting against the winner. I would strongly support that!

That would work for me too. As long as a possibility of a new slate exists then I'm game. Picking the lesser of two evils is a road I will no longer travel.

I appreciate the article and its through examination of voting.

I agree with this idea and its implications.

However, we see that we would be in favor of this option, but I know not all people use rational thinking.

In fact, some people want to vote specifically for "the winner" and may vote based on who they perceive will win. It feels good to be on "the winning sude" and know that your opinions were "right". They would appreciate a similar simple option of "for X".

We see that is mass minnow upvotes.

The irrational world is heavily populated and must be considered.

Persuasion helps.

@strangearray that is a very good point. The herd mentality is a dynamic. Whenever something is good for lack of a better word people jump on it as they want to be part of the "good".

Just looked at some of you posts, I'm following you now.

Based of your mass minnow updates you may find some humor in this post: https://steemit.com/comic/@scaredycatguide/we-now-dub-thee-the-minnow-king-come-and-challenge-for-the-crown

As long as we vote for masters we are screwed, we need to vote for laws directly.

holy shit dan, thats a genius idea!! a vote againts the winner to see if they do indeed have a majority? rather than a perceived majority by a lack of people voting. mostly due to disillusioned by the candidates we are asked to vote for.

I like this too. Yet with the current regime this could be used as a way to keep justifying the incumbent retain office. 24 years of Obama because it is always None of the Above. I like the idea by the way. This is just me playing Devil's advocate.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Hey @dantheman!

While I have been awaiting weighted votes since I became active here, I wanted to ask what exactly the required SP is to attain it?

The biggest reason I've wanted it is cause I would like to be able to have bigger voting power while actively voting through comments in posts. Even though I know my power is low and my votes end up having barely a cent behind it, I think that limiting myself to 25 votes per day just because of my voting power feels kinda wrong. I am not sure if this is to fight bots, or if you are working on a better way for users to regain voting power from other sources. But if it would be a simple change to give users (who I know there are many of) that have 1000 SP weighted voting, I would really appreciate it.

Cause to me I feel like reading and voting for quality content and leaving a vote as support is more important than its value, and with the masses doing the same, value would come.

Edit: apologize for being a bit off-topic with this comment.

It is my dilemma too and I second your question. Thanks for asking :)

Weighted voting is already implemented on the blockchain, but you can't do it on Steemit.com. I've been looking into voting power lately; follow my blog and you'll see a comprehensive analysis of voting power come out hopefully on Monday.

The short answer: You can't do weighted voting on Steemit.com, but it doesn't matter - if you vote so much that your voting power drops, you end up having the same total influence as if you only voted 25 times per day.

If all who voted will have the same influence, could it be mean that they also the same weights, irregardless of their sp? Good day @dantheman

This is a really interesting idea and rationale behind it.

After first few paragraphs I asked myself: "What if everybody had an antipode to cancel out hir vote? Then the net result would be null and nobody would be elected."

Later you answered my question with a Smart Ballots scenario and a Rational Battlefield (what a strange pairing of words).

So - do we need / search for an automatic anonymous ballot system with ... smart contracts on the blockchain?

A side note - I see a future where every citizen gets hir personal blockchain wallet and PK with birth to use it for decision casting and reputation and ... many other possibilities-

Ps: Jared?

hahaha, I caught the "Jared" in there too... I wonder how long it was Jared before it was John, and who this will offend. :)

Rigging a vote to anoint "least offensive people" as leaders is a direct recipe for mediocrity (and Dan must know this). We are being trolled. Leaders, by definition, are polarizing... and must overcome constant opposition to accomplish anything noteworthy.

Not trolling, leaders aren't elected, rulers are.

I wanted to write something a bit more personal from me rather than linking it to my rhyming split personality.

Now the fact that you and @ned came up with something like steem already shows you've got a very OUT OF THE BOX way of looking at things. The potentials of steem and the blockchain as you have positioned them are immense. I'd expect you to be quite intelligent, and definitely well versed in coding and the crypto-currency scene.

Where have you been hiding this philosophical writing? This is easily on par with @larkenrose and I am a huge fan of Larken Rose. One of my earliest blog entries on steemit was me sharing a video of him giving an absolutely brilliant anarchy speech. This piece you just wrote, it is on par with any of that other material.

I don't say this for an up vote, because I know who you are. You don't need to vote on anything I say to you. That could be kind of self defeating. You post something awesome and everyone cheers you on and you up vote those cheering. In your shoes I'd likely have a little hesitation for that. So I am not soliciting a vote here. You can vote on stuff I write other places to other people if you encounter it AND like it. I expect nothing here and only truly wanted to express how great I think this piece is.

It may be one of my favorites so far since I've been on steemit. Keep up the good work. I look forward to trying out the new systems you are investigating RE: Curation/Voting.

lol... 7 lines for saying you don't want an upvote... and are just in love

You should capitalize your LOL. (intentionally being a smartass) Go read my blog. I don't talk differently to him than I do anyone else, unless they are condescending, belittling, name calling, or pricks. Really haven't encountered too much of that though. So THIS post was not out of character for me. Which is WHY I created @chaospoet because I am VERY long winded and well aware of this.

EDIT: I am kind of in love with that post though. It was damn well written.

What if there are more votes down ballot? Like a referendum you agree on. You need to find your exact opposite for this to work.

No need to find exact opposite, just find someone you least trust to rule you and negate them (assuming they haven't already been negated).

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

but who gets elected if only negative votes are given ? (or are you obliged in your model to cast both a negative and a positive one ?). The main problem is that in most elections, the winner wins already with a small margin, adding or subtracting ballots to that could just randomize the outcome of the election...

I might not have understood things fully, but I agree that it is an interesting proposition to have a smart ballot that allowed people to negate the opposite of a selected person's vote.

What happens if the 'opposite' isn't that clear?
What if there are more than 2 options for people to vote for?

I guess this is what you are discussing when you talking about the cardinality of active participants.

I would be interested to hear your view about my home country China. And how their selective democratic practices gave to their rise and perhaps soon, fall.. They select the candidate leaders for each region, and then allowing voting on those. This is basically what you're saying about voting for any colour car as long as it's black.

Well you both could have turned out, but the amount of raw information you would contribute would be identical to if you both didn’t show up.

This is untrue unless you only consider the identification of a winner (or absolute margin of victory) to be raw information. In practice turnout is also raw information and is closely watched. The decision to vote or not is indeed a decision that expresses information.

You suggest elsewhere that a system that produces the same outcome but requires people to take time and gas money to go to the polls is inefficient (though without using that word). However, again that is only true if you believe that the mere act of showing up conveys no useful information. I'm not convinced that is the case.

The argument is stronger if considered within a system of compulsory voting.

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Hit the nail on the head there, sometimes I think fuck all the so called options on the table.

In the age of encryption and blockchains would a system of national referendums on major issues lead to better democracy or would it create situations where the population votes to change their national flag to a dickbutt?

that's called switzerland

Darn it. You are making me thing too much. I have to respond.

One scenario I didn't see you cover. What about cases where we don't really care if someone dislikes it or not?

If someone comes to steemit for example and they are one of two people that like TURTLENECK SHIRTS and BELL BOTTOM PANTS and that is what they choose to vote on. That would be two people with whatever steem power multiple you use.

Does it really matter that I don't like those things? Do I need to stop people that have interests different than my own from being able to benefit from talking to others that DO share that interest with them?

Is it my goal to go around and negate the votes of those who are interested in different things than I am?

(this applies to steemit rather than directly to your post, but I think it is relevant)

Why would I vote down Barbies so that now people who like Barbies can no longer be a small community within our community benefiting from their mutual interest?

In some voting situations expressing dislike is important. I don't really see that it is really important here on steemit.

There does need to be a way to flag inappropriate content. Yet inappropriate should not be a matter of personal opinion.

I know you are working on addressing this, but I did want to get this out there and see if you or anyone else wishes to dialog.

I have realized recently that down voting people in an environment like steemit is a totally alien concept to me. My mind just does not understand why I would ever do it. I know why I would report posts, yet I honestly would never down vote any of you. So there may be a reason but so far it is like I am color blind and you are trying to teach me to see color.

Geez this guy, now you see why I'm around
He can't keep his feet on the ground
If I were not the one driving his mouth would never stop
Sometimes I wish I could just in his mouth shove a mop

Split-Personality my ass
He is purely made of gas
I do all the work getting to the point
He'd be better off smoking a joint

I know that is something he will not use
He is not really much of a muse
I can keep it short he cannot
I'll knock him out and stick him on his cot

Not sure why but this reminded me so much of the Dialogues of Plato.

I really doubt the conclusion that most people would decide to negate, especially since the most outspoken gen negated fast, so a new person seeing that the people they hate have been negated, would instead cast a ballot for their preferred candidate. A lot of people would decide against a negation vote out of principle. And a many live in communities that are basically echo chambers and would not know many people they want to negate, especially since those people would keep their mouths shut.

Even if a lot of votes would be negated, democracy lovers would still claim that the 3 votes left for A outweigh the 1 vote left for B, so all hail president A.

The right to an opinion (vote) is a basic right. Because freedom is the ability to choose. However, the error of "democracy" in that everyone has a vote of equal strength.

Consider the 11 doctors. 1 of them very good and 10 being bad doctors. Their challenge is to prescribe a cure. And they vote. The good doctor voted for the cure A. 10 bad doctors vote for cure B.

Will they be able to cure the patient? ;) What's the error of such a system of decision-making?

The mistake is that the right to vote is of equal strength. Why is a drunkard has the same vote power as a person leading a healthy lifestyle? Does the opinion of drunkards to be as useful as the opinion of a person leading a healthy lifestyle?

And if the society will begin to dominate crazy? They create idiotic laws, right?

Why children are not given the same rights as adults? Is it because they can't properly dispose of their freedom and will harm themselves and others? Why would a fool be allowed to do silly things? Is it wise?

Why would the police put the criminals behind bars? It is good or bad for law-abiding citizens? But it's bad from the point of view of democracy that tries to give everyone the right to opinion, right to vote and freedom of expression.

The criminal believes that it is necessary to rob and kill. It is his opinion. And according to democratic doctrine, we must allow him to realize his freedom of opinion. That is, must give him the opportunity to rob and kill. But is it wise?

Is it not foolish to give equal rights, and the fool, and the wise, and the criminal, and the law-abiding man, and the child, and the adult, and the drunkard, and the man who leads a healthy lifestyle?

That's the main folly of the democratic doctrine. Equal rights. But that's impossible. Actually, there is no equal rights in nature. And it turns out that this equal rights is only a nice theory.

People are not equal. Someone smarter, someone stronger, someone talented, someone not. How can we give them equal rights? The right to an opinion is the same as an equal rights, isn't it? But would you give an opportunity to the criminal to realize his opinion?

So, in nature there is no democracy. It simply can not exist. It's a hoax. It's just nice words. In nature, decisions are made by the strongest. The opinion of the strongest is implemented. Where is equal rights in nature? How is this even possible, if there is strong and there are weak? It's impossible.

I question why we would ever assume that the popular political theology is a morally acceptable means of making decisions regarding what people may or may not do. I assume that the popular political theology is the agreed upon morality of the oligarchy.

I would hope that we could find a way to end up in complete anarchy, I think governance of this type is anachronistic and unnecessarily bloody, and would celebrate the spontaneous organization and cooperation that is the hallmark of true Anarchy.

You could also take advantage of partisan competition and structural incentives to nullify your own votes.

http://chescosteve.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-tenth-amendment-voting-strategy.html