Do people exploit generous welfare systems?

in politics •  7 years ago  (edited)

Norway has one of the most generous welfare states in the world, and when it comes to sick leave, we are at the top. If you are away from work, you get 100% pay from day one. That is unless you make more than $70,000. Everything you make over that will not be payed out, but I think we all can agree that 70 grand a year is enough for most people to survive on?

Self-certification

If you get a cold or have a blistering headache, you call your work and tell them you're not coming. Normally you can do this 4 times a year, and on each of those 4 occasions you can stay away from work 3 days in a row. For government and municipal employees that number is even higher, with 24 individual days per year. That's almost a month per year where you can stay at home - no need for a doctor to diagnose you. You diagnose yourself, and your employee trust you.

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If you do get sick and need to stay home longer, you can stay at home for a full year with full pay as long as you get a doctors certificate.

After that you can still stay at home for another 3 years with 66% pay if you're not ready to work yet.

Of course, this system is very nice for those who are actually ill. But it's also a very ineffective system. A lot of people waiting to sort out their work situation after a year of sick leave wait and wait and wait for treatment. And there is almost no economic incentive to try and get better. While you are waiting for a psychiatrist or medical examinations, you are basically encouraged to stay on the couch and watch TV. For years. Working will be penalized, and you may risk losing all your benefits.

There are about 150,000 people in Norway currently waiting for treatments and assessments. These people are not counted as unemployed by the way. Even though a wast majority of them are not getting back to work. Most end up on disability benefits.

This is not strange, because an increasing number of young people who end up there have mental issues. And they are not getting help early, they are told to wait on the couch for years, and are not being told how they can use these years to gain knowledge, grow as persons and eventually be stronger than ever once they are done with their three years. Most of the time they become chronics and ends up on disability.

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Do people exploit this generous system?

Hell yes. You don't have to be a specialist on incentive-theory to see that one coming. According to SSB (the statistical buerau ) 8% of women and 4,8% of men (total 6,4%) is at any given time sick. More than 10% of the population is on disability. The group that is growing the most is young people under 30.

We are twice as sick as our neighbours in Sweden. And our sick leave benefits are twice as good.

From these numbers we can assume a couple of things. We can assume that having generous benefits doesn't make us sicker to begin with. That is not logic, and makes no sense. There is no correlation between handing out generous benefits and peoples actual physical and mental health. BUT, one could argue that it incentivizes people to FEEL more sick, looking for reasons to be sick so that they can stay at home. And when you start feeling sick, work less, fall behind, begin laying on the couch, you will in many cases feel worse. You can more easily adopt issues, especially mental ones.

Then we can assume that people exploit these benefits. And we can most certainly assume that people from countries where societal trust ranks lower than in Norway, where the attitude is "you grab whatever you can" and the whole idea that a government just hands out money, trusting you when you say you struggle with depression, is in my opinion something that a lot of foreigners speculate in. Men with immigrant background use 10 more sick leave days a year than norwegian born men.

So there is also a cultural aspect to this. Norway is like all the other European countries changing it's demographics, and people from cultures with less political trust seem to exploit trust given to them. That is only natural.

Conclusion

So there you have it. We certainly do have a very generous welfare system. But does it help us? Are we more healthy? Do we get the help we need when we are sick? No, No and No.

 
 
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"You diagnose yourself, and your employee trust you."

So is everyone a stay-at-home doctor in Norway??

Hehe. Seems like it. It's supposed to be a system based upon trust, to relieve the doctors of people who come in with a cough or migraine. But there is no explanation, other than fraudulence, that people in Norway are twice as sick as Swedes. We are one of the sickest people in the world according to sick leave statistics. So..there is no doubt about it. People have very low threshold for calling in sick, and I suspect a lot of people call in sick even if they aren't sick. Just recently I overhead someone who had called in sick because their dog had stomach ache..

Well, Norway is funding this massive welfare system with oil profits, right?

Some, most of the oil profits are being gambled with on the stock markets and in real estate in Europe and the US. But the oil profits have been so large, so they only use about 5% yearly. The fond is so large, so it's a lot. It's at 8 000 000 000 000 nok, which is what? 64 000 000 000 000 USD

Most is payed for through taxes and fees. We pay about 70% tax total if you include VAT and all sorts of fees.

70%? Holly crap, that's most of your disposable income in the pockets of the politicos. Absolute insanity!

Can I please identify as a Norwegian?? I've diagnosed myself with a bad case of work-o-phobia and I don't expect to recover anytime soon. I would love some disability benefits...also, please send them here as I don't think the weather in Norway suits me!

That would be no problemo! We love sending money to people who are not norwegian citizens or live here!

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That system seems to be unfair to the employer especially since a person is employed with the expectation they will be bringing a certain skill set to the organization. When a person goes on sick leave not only will the skills be unavailable but the employer would feel obligated to keep the position available when the employee returns from sick leave. The question should be why employees are requiring these leaves.

Of course it's unfair. And that's why it's so risky to even hire someone if you are a small business owner. Hire the wrong person and you lose a lot of money (employer must pay for the first 16 days of sick leave)

I argued that employees don't require or need these generous leaves. It only makes people more "sick" and even actually sick.

Do you have strong unions or is this mandated by the government?

If I'm not mistaken it is mandated by government. But sure, we have strong unions too.

Behaviour like that over time will have a negative impact on labour relations. As a business owner, I would move into a contract labour situation - which means that people would work year to year on a contract. Unlike a normal employer/employee relationship which includes severance at the end of an employees term, vacation time, sick leave and benefits - the relationship is constrained by the terms of the contract. This means that the contract could stipulate no vacation nor sick leave. As jobs become scarcer (because of the technological movement to automation) the supply of workers will exceed the demand for their services.
Here is an example of autonomous technology in the agriculture sector:

As autonomous technology winds through all aspects of working life, there will be a greater divide between the employed and unemployed. There is little intrinsic value to having a job - most of the benefits are extrinsic (money, prestige etc.) Given the option most people would prefer to be on the beach than behind the desk. I was showing my father (93 years old) some of the resorts they have now in the Maldives - (really expensive) cottages on stilts but his observation was that he could last about 3 days before getting bored. That is one of the few intrinsic benefits about jobs is that they occupy your time.
The Romans needed to build huge coliseums to entertain the masses once they reached a certain level of civilization. Football, Soccer and Hockey stadiums might be considered today's variation of the this. We also have electronic media that may supplant these massive structures.
I am only mentioning these things to highlight that the exploitation of the welfare system that you mentioned is only a symptom of things to come.

Sorry I didn't see or reply to this well thought out reply earlier. You are 100% correct. That's exactly what happens. Businesses use contractors instead of employees, and everyone that runs a business talks about how to avoid hiring people (because they are too expensive - we even have to PAY 14% tax to hire someone. It's insane. You create a job, and then you have to pay the government to hire someone - called employer tax/arbeidsgiveravgift)

But, it incentivize creativity for entrepreneurs, and the market it changing partly because of it. More people also enjoy working freelance/contractors, because they also want to feel like entrepreneurs or self-employed, and they are. So there are just different levels or layers of people working togheter rather than the traditional hierarchy.

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