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in privacy •  6 years ago  (edited)

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Fantstic post. It this a part of game theory?

Hi @clayrawlings

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, if we look at the bigger picture, everything about blockchain cries out game theory.

But answering to your question, yes. There is quite a lot of game theory involved. You can somewhat compare the map analogy to the prisoner's dilemma. Even though the highest utility is in cooperation, the Nash equilibrium lies in both looking at their own best interests. ZKP allows you to sort of remove the boundaries between the two.

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The prisoner's dilemma is exactly what I was thinking of. In my world (law) we are forced to make decisions everyday with incomplete, inaccurate, or fraudulent data. Making it a math problem at least gives us a strategy to make the best decision in impossible situations.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

To solve the problem of successfully verifying a zero-knowledge proof to a validator in a virtual scenario, cryptographic means have to be employed, which use several computational assumptions. Due to the assumptions, it can be perceived that there can never be an absolute solution. Zero-knowledge proofs are considered to be probabilistic rather that deterministic.

Selfkey uses ZKP to perform KYC/AML verifications. A notary verifies and attests your legal and personal documents and the notaries' verification is used for KYC verification without revealing the actual documents like passports or IDs. To me that sounds deterministic rather than probabilistic.

Perhaps, in your forthcoming articles, you could discuss Selfkey as one of your real world use cases. Would appreciate that.

Hello @devann.

Interesting suggestion you have got there. We were actually unaware of Selfkey and what it is trying to do.

I might be wrong here, but I think you're trying to think of Selfkey as a ZKP mechanism itself, rather than thinking that Selfkey uses an iteration of ZKP on its application.

Let try me to clear that with this small example.

ZCash is a cryptocurrency, with its source code borrowed heavily from bitcoin itself. In order to facilitate transfer of value without the propagation of information, it uses zk-snarks (one of the methods by which ZKP can be calculated).

Thus, when I send you a certain amount, it will 'deterministically' reach your wallet. But the mechanism that ZCash used to send you the amount without revealing any information is 'probabilistic'.

Now change ZCash to Selfkey and value to KYC information and it's still the same.

Hope I was able to help you out in understanding. Do get back if greater clarity is required.

Thanks for the support as always. Cheers.

Do you have examples of crypto that use this protocol? Pretty cool to share that you own the item without the need to reveal the content.

Hi @chesatochi.

It's really cool, isn't it? ZKP has opened so many new possibilities to the space.

There are quite a few protocols that use ZKP actually. ZCash is built on the zk-snarks mechanism of ZKP; Ethereum had soft forked it's protocol to include zk-snarks for Smart contracts. The list goes on.

The article following this will answer all your question on the application and use cases of ZKP. Be sure to check that out.

Thanks.

While I'm not a mathematician or a cryptographer, I kinda like logic and things that makes sense. So, I found the proof-of-map-ownership quite clever and simple. Looking forward to Part 2.

Hey @majes.tytyty
Thanks for the kind words. To be honest, we don't have any technical background either. That's why we wanted to make sure more people like us are aware of what goes on in the backend. Glad that you found the analogy helpful. It took us hours to get that right.

Part 2 is on its way soon.

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I think ZKP is needed in todAsys fast moving society and with blockchain and IOT and it’s trustless environment it’s really going to become more and more popular!

Sadly ZKP just shows the real state humanity is in that we have to think of such a system simply because trust isn’t a given

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Great explanation of a complex topic. Thank you for your hard work.

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Hello @guysellars.

Thanks for the appreciation. Glad you found it helpful. Cheers.

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Hi, again, @reverseacid!

I love the way you explain this protocol. I knew it a little bit, lightly, when I checked the ZCash. This protocol has many applications and I will be happy to see your next post about these.

It establishes a tacit way to assure and prove the existence of something, without needing to know it. Awesome, isn't it?

Great post!

Nice posts @reverseacid! I like the treasure hunt map and key analogy.

Unfortunately for me, it happens to be basically a rehash of what I already know about ZPK.

Can't wait for part two!

Dear @reverseacid

you know, you would have explained the whole thing with the 2 guys with a map and key concept because, the meaning really sinks in that way.

I think that if you're going to analyzed everything, it all comes down to this: MUTUAL TRUST

Dear @reverseacid

When I came to this paragraph I felt in: "The MATRIX"

"In cryptography, a zero knowledge test or a zero knowledge protocol is a method by which a party (the promoter) can demonstrate to the other party (the verifier) that he knows a value x, without transmitting any information other than the fact that they know the value x. The essence of the zero knowledge tests is that it is trivial to prove that one possesses knowledge of certain information simply by revealing it; the challenge is to prove that possession without revealing the information itself or any additional information. "

It sounds very easy to reach this type of conclusion using mathematics to determine the knowledge,

However, as they say there, the end justifies the means.

I think the end was the true treasure .. So the three options are on the table, but one is that it could be applied, so two people together trying to achieve something I think they would reach an agreement.

Liked the treasure hunt story and options but of course there are more problems.

The I is male and the you is female. Who dumped us over there and who has the shovel?
Probably someone will be killed or stay on the island forever and the treasure is taken by...

I share.

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  ·  6 years ago 

You say this
Let me think of the ancient Chinese banknotes
Ancient China
Large business groups had issue banknotes
There are three hidden verification codes on the top of the banknote.
The merchant that collects the money, check the verification code to confirm the true and false of the banknote
The average person gets the money, because he won't look at the hidden verification code, and he doesn't know how to check it. Therefore, it is impossible to verify the true and false of the banknote. It can only be judged by experience and has certain risks.
As you said:
If the person who created the treasure map at the same time creates a verification code at the same time, then if she asks the other party to say the verification code, she checks her code and the code of the other party.
If combination is ok that the other party is true, and did not need to get his things.

Hi @reverseacid

Thanks for sharink link to your publication with me. I re-read this post as I found it very interesting and playing with my imagination was fun :)

There are three ways this can turn out:

Why cannot I simply kill you and take map? If there would be no authorities and law protecting you, then you wouldn't enjoy very long life in that situation :)

To tell you the truth, I would focus on building your trust towards me. The only thing is that since envoromnemt does allow some violence (and I'm a former boxer so beating up someone wouldn't bother me) then I would most likely make you bleed, perhaps even break some bone (left arm maybe?) and I would then spare you.

That would be my gift: I would give you life. You would not have to worry if I want to cheat you and take your map, as I could do it already. That way we would develop special kind of bond and trust, that can be develop between victim and offender.

How do you like this solution? :)

Anyway I really enjoyed this post and your suggested (peaceful) solution.

Yours
Piotr

That's quite a solution you have there @crypto.piotr

It would be an effective one indeed because I'm sure I can't keep up with you on a physical level. But let's say at the first sign of your hostility, I was to eat the map. I would rather die than let the treasure fall into the hands of a "potential murderer" ;)

After that, good luck getting the treasure of better yet; good luck getting off the island without the map!

Thankfully, this is just an example to explain a digital situation. As a cryptographic protocol, you would not even know who I am, let alone be in the same room.

Your reply is very fascinating though. I wonder how it can be equated into a cryptographic attack!

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Dear @reverseacid

If you eat the map then surely we're both doomed hahaha :) But I've surprise to you. I'm very soft looking guy, always smiling and initially I would probably give you an impression that you're fully in control.

Just to calmly figure out when would be the best moment to attack. After all you don't want to make other people think that you're potential threat. That's what I've learned being young.

I don't believe in open confrontation. So perhaps you would not have a chance to eat that bloody map ? :) hahaha.

I would rather die than let the treasure fall into the hands of a "potential murderer"

OMG. I love our little chat :) hahahaha

I wonder how it can be equated into a cryptographic attack!

I wonder how many people out there will be kidnapped / attacked out there once thiefs will realize that transparent blockchains (like STEEM) do allow to select accounts of really rich people. And tracking them down for professionals should not be that difficult.

Yours, Piotr

There are always ways you can use an analogy to defy what it's trying to get at.

For instance, here's one without any violence. I, holder of the map, simply abandon any attempt to get the key and instead procure a hammer. With the right combination of sturdy implements (perhaps the ubiquitous rocks of our planet's crust) and determination the chest I could find thanks to the map would eventually open to me. I could even simply take the chest in knowledge of it's valuable contents, leaving the key holder high and dry.

Very interesting scenario @a-non-e-moose :)

Violence! Isn't it great? Drop the map if you do not want me to put on my gloves!

Strength (power) was the first thing that dominated the world, then money and finally knowledge.

Let the beer join them and, finally, they'll agree to find the treasure together, drunkenly ever after!

Hahaha @jadams2k18

Drop the map if you do not wat me to put on my gloves!

I don't think it really goes that way hahaha :) First you wait till someone is sleeping, then you look for some huge rock and while person is sleeping you're crashing some part of his body (I would suggest one of knees). And then after all screeming stops - you start explaining two different scenarions of events unfolding (in which person either dies or lives).

ps. Im actually glad I wasn't born in Venezuela. Something tells me that I would be considered criminal by many hahaha )

Cheers
Piotr

You make me laugh so hard...

ps. Im actually glad I wasn't born in Venezuela. Something tells me that I would be considered criminal by many hahaha )

You fit perfect here!

Hello dear @reverseacid.

Simply Fascinating!
We can affirm that this mechanism is a kind of Protocol?
Yes, it is a consensus mechanism. Apparently very efficient.

Now, the possibility of applying it in Blockchain ... the mechanism should be infallible.

The zero knowledge tests are considered probabilistic and not deterministic.

Is this mechanism totally reliable? That is, do not you have the possibility to cheat or hack it?

Thank you for sharing this.

All best, Piotr.

Yes, @crypto.piotr. As this mechanism is a cryptographic protocol and built on probability, it can be relied on with closed eyes.

The only way one can "hack" the probability is by falsifying the information in the first place. One cannot necessarily influence the probability, but definitely can influence the information on which the probability is calculated. Thus, if you provide true information, you will get a ZKP for that. If you provide false information, you will get a ZKP for that as well.

The difference in both is that a validator will be easily able to distinguish between the true solution from the false.

For eg: if I want to send you some btc and don't want you to know who sent you, how you got it or anything else, I will use the ZKP mechanism. Thus, the only information you get is your wallet being credited and nothing else. In the same case, if I had provided false information in the beginning, I will be able to come up with a ZKP, but you will not be able to verify it because your wallet will never be credited with anything.

Hope that provides clarity to your question. Thanks for dropping by again. Always appreciate your support.

Dear @reverseacid

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Amazing comment.

Appreciate it a lot
Piotr

This is cool writeups, are you writing a book or a writer?

Hey, @vibesforlife.

Thanks you for the kind words.

We are a couple of blockchain enthusiasts trying to leverage our time and energy into spreading awareness to the general audience. We specifically chose the Steem blockchain for that purpose.

So, yes. We're writers.

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great work, keep up

@reverseacid, many protocols work in similar fashion and I am glad you have found a way to explain it in a clear manner :)

Hey @reverseacid,
thank you for sharing your Memo with me. Was an awesome read :)

Hello @mcnestler. Glad you found the memos helpful and thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.

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Great post with explanation well presented.
well done lad!

Hello @adewararilwan.

Thanks for he appreciation. Do keeping looking out for more posts like these. Part 2 is in the way.

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Yeh I'm with @crypto.piotr on this one.
Im not a violent person and greed doesn't motivate me. But if the treasure was food and water, thats a different matter it maybe life or death.
So after a little battering i would have the map.
But i would share my treasure with you.
The way you sugest would make my ears bleed and my head explode,
So I would attack first and ask questions later.
Must be nice to be clever...But would you have 2 people standing together that understood quantum physics?
I promise I read ot all twice then I fell asleep.
Perhaps thats how it works...you steal the map whilst I am in a coma lol. 😂😂

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Hahaha @andyjem

It is a great solution for a physical scenario! Luckily (for my bones) in reality, this is a digital situation where neither of us know who the other is or where they are.

All these violent comments, starting to put the fear of God in me 🤣🤣

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Chill if you don't get the complicated. Go for the obvious lol.... I need food not gold lol..😁

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I feel like I am smarter and that my brain stretched in TRYING to understand this... although my formal math skills are not what they used to be, I do get why ZKP is a very useful thing for the blockchain and even applicable to those situations in life when there is the possibility that mutual cooperation may give way before naked self-interest and the behaviors thereof. Upvoted and resteemed.

Fantastic post!

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This is the reason I am an accountant, and not in finance. I do not care or want to think of what possibilities might happen. I only want to talk about the past results and analyze them. If this was in a college class, I would choose to fail this part and try harder on the rest of it.