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stan (71) · 8 years ago

I guess I have to follow you around everywhere you post this and post my response:

You can't prove a negative so there is NOT overwhelming evidence that Jesus never existed.

All of the direct evidence that exists has been collected for you in one library called the Bible. After contemporaries have done all that work for you it is disingenuous to say that there is nothing else except what was collected and preserved.

The burden of proof does not lie with those making extraordinary claims. They are there for you to accept or reject as you will. Jesus made it clear that He had no intention (deliberately) to give you unassailable proof. He provided enough evidence for those who want to find Him and not enough evidence for those who don't. It's a filter and filters are designed to let some things get through and keep others out.

I laugh (sadly) at those who sit on the outside demanding that Jesus do even more than die for them. They want to be spoon fed while keeping their mouths firmly shut - just like a 2 year old rejecting a big spoonful of coconut cream pie!

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15 votes

logic (67) · 8 years ago

I will just repeat. Bible is not an evidence of God, as it has little verification in actual historical events and little basis in science.
It is clearly explained in the video, why Bible is not an evidence.
Bible IS NOT and evidence of existence of Christ, same as Marvel comic book is not an evidence of Spider-Man.
I should not even reply to your comments as it is typical nonsensical response by someonee who clearly lack capacity for logical reasoning and understand logical fallacies . Typically, you have just used a logical fallacy called Circular Reasoning - god exists because the Bible says god exists and, since god wrote the Bible, it must be true.

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15 votes

stan (71) · 8 years ago

Ah, telling a rocket scientist he is incapable of logical reasoning. Very good.

Have it your way. Eyewitness accounts respected, collected, preserved and distributed by thousands of their contemporaries don't count as evidence.

It is true that those eyewitnesses did testify that "all Scripture is inspired by God" and therefore, if you choose to believe them you can proceed to infer that God wrote the Bible. But it is not required that you believe that until you decide what to do about those pesky eyewitness accounts.

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4 votes

stan (71) · 8 years ago

I considered leaving out the remark about the rocket scientist but it was the shortest rhetorical way to challenge your claim that believers are illogical. Take it for whatever it's worth.
The "telephone" game where retelling changes things does not apply. All 5600 manuscripts dating back to the first few generations and preserved by isolated communities all around the mediterranean all agree. Where there is a typo in one there are all many other copies to correct it.
If you are examining the other holy books, good for you. Now examine their pedigrees and credibility and see which one, if any, you find worth detailed study. You can't pick more than one though, because they contradict each other.
Scientific evidence is great if you have it. If you can't have it, then you'll have to settle for eye-witness accounts. Especially if that's all the evidence God wants you to have.

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3 votes

bidoof (39) · 8 years ago (edited)

Other holy books have eyewitness accounts as well. What makes the bible more trustworthy than the others?

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rambogoham (49) · 8 years ago

I think we should use eye-witness accounts for evidence of things in the universe and place them above all other forms of evidence. Instruments that can see more of the electromagnetic spectrum and experiments that provide continued reliability at providing effective results should be placed lower than eye-witness testimony. This way, the electron doesn't exist, along with every element on the periodic table! : )

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logic (67) · 8 years ago (edited)

Now you just used another logical fallacy when you mentioned that you are "rocket scientist"
It is called "appeal to authority".

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all-of-us (48) · 8 years ago (edited)

If I tell you a story and ask you to keep it safe and tell the people of the world, how long would it be before that story was changed by the people you told it to? a word added here and there, a passage or two removed because they didn't fit in with what someone else thought of the story.

We are Human and we have many weaknesses two of them are not having amazing memories and not being very trustworthy when it comes to the power over people that religion can provide.

Combine the two and you get multiple religious beliefs and armies of people that will kill over them.

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nicolay77 (25) · 8 years ago

Thousands of their contemporaries?

There were four writers and their writings are at least 60 years after the fact.

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stan (71) · 8 years ago

There were lots of contemporaries who were still alive when the various books of the New Testament were written, cherished, preserved, and distributed. For example:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one born out of due time. - 1 Corinthians 15:3-8

and

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41

and then you go through counting up all the specific people who were part of the early church and widely known, for example, the last chapter of the book of Romans mentions these specific individuals that Paul greeted. It's a bit long, but that's my point - there were plenty of people in all the early churches who knew and accepted Paul.

I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you. I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

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miguel12 (52) · 8 years ago

You say God exist from microscopic view, the quartz change depending the watcher , and the way of view of every watcher, not same all the time, how explain that atom, where 90% is nothing, give consistency of matter to things

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gavvet (78) · 8 years ago (edited)

That's why my premise is to review its claims...for consistency with scientifically understood principles.

All truth should be consistent not so?

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bidoof (39) · 8 years ago (edited)

Let me ask you something: why, exactly, would people not want to find Jesus? It's not that atheists don't want to find god. It's that they looked for god and saw nothing. They got no answers to their prayers, saw no evidence that was compelling enough for them to become believers. Trust me, many atheists would LOVE to believe in a kind god and an afterlife.

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11 votes

stan (71) · 8 years ago

The generally understood reason for folks not wanting to find Jesus is that you would have to give up your own sovereignty first.

Try starting over. Jesus is not going to provide you the kind of proof you are seeking. He is simply standing outside your door and knocking. You can choose to open the door or you can keep demanding he show you more forms of ID. :o)

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bidoof (39) · 8 years ago

I don't think most people would mind giving up their sovereignty if it meant eternal life. The ''atheists just don't want to be saved'' explanation is what they give you at church, but it's completely incorrect. Many have tried opening the door.

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all-of-us (48) · 8 years ago

I am an atheist because it is plain to see that stories, although based around some possible truth's are just that... stories.
A belief in an almighty being is nothing more than a comfort blanket to keep us safe from the harsh realities of this short life.

But if anyone can tell me which of the estimated 4200 religions and spiritual traditions are the correct ones to follow to bring me salvation, i'll gladly take a look into it not because of my need to find a god, but for the need to understand why after thousands of years we still tear ourselves apart because someone believes differently than someone else.

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stan (71) · 8 years ago

You need to separate out the truth of the Scriptures found in the original Greek and Hebrew from all the false teachings and bad behaviors you mention. They have nothing to do with each other.

There. I have told you. No more excuses. :)

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gavvet (78) · 8 years ago

I hear you... a valid point... Its taken me many years for some aspects that I will be covering in the series

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business (61) · 8 years ago

Prove to me there is not a teapot orbiting mars.

Therefore there is a teapot orbiting mars.

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virtualgrowth (72) · 8 years ago

I thought it is a teacup orbiting Mars! :)

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rambogoham (49) · 8 years ago

You can't prove to me Jesus never existed, therefore Jesus must have existed. Stan's argument from ignorance fallacy.

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neglect (41) · 8 years ago

It's like saying "You can't proved I don't have 500 bitcoins right now, therefore it's true that I have 500 bitcoin"

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stan (71) · 8 years ago

Never said that. Merely refuted that there was "overwhelming proof that he didn't exist."

I'm only saying there are credible eyewitness accounts that he did. Make of that whatever you will.

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neglect (41) · 8 years ago (edited)

There are also books that's being made mix with history in the past and unrealistic events. That's what the bible had.

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stan (71) · 8 years ago

No. The books of the Bible did not appear in a vacuum. They were cherished, preserved, distributed and used all around the Mediterranean from the very years in which they were written. There are 5600 chains of custody for the various documents and they all match.

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holdencaulfield (34) · 8 years ago

having records of Christ 30-40 years after his death is actually really really good for ancient sourcing. I'm fine with you saying he never existed, but I have a list of about 200 historical figures who you also have to say never existed by this logic.

The "Christ was a myth" argument is kind of ill-informed, you will find very very few - secular and religious - biblical history scholars who support it. Those who do are often kind of fringe figures. I mean this as no insult to you, but Christ existing is pretty much solid. It's his divinity that's in question (and that question is a lot more interesting)

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4 votes

logic (67) · 8 years ago (edited)

Please give me a list of these so called 200 figures, and explain why would they be considered as non exisiting.

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holdencaulfield (34) · 8 years ago

I'll get the book down and give you a "greatest hits" cut and put the ISBN - because there's a lot of obscure figures you probably won't know.

As for what I mean by "not existing" is that basically it's because we have much less evidence for them, much further away from their life. What we have of Christ states that not long after his death, he had gained a following of people in the Roman Empire. There's emperors who we have just one passing mention of about 200 years later in a run down of other emperors but nothing else. Yet no one questions these emperors, just Christ - because most people questioning Christ don't understand how ancient sources work.

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hrottie (54) · 8 years ago

I would say that Jesus is a real person.
However he was rather a magician than a son of god, what have made him very popular.

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miguel12 (52) · 8 years ago

i could answer Zeitgeist, all that mention there are Christified and all are symbolic in all culture ( like Sumerian tablets) and december 25 is the begining of the sun movement , december 20 is the finish of the past calendar , julian calendar, now we are in gregorian calendar.

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spookypooky (55) · 8 years ago

This post is great. Not because I am overly interested in the content or because I choose sides in the narrative.

But because it's showing the potential of the Steemit network as a place to discuss and debate, not just vote on the post and leave a snappy 2-liner or a beg for a backvote.

And that's worth a lot in social media.

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logic (67) · 8 years ago

Sadly such debates are very uncommon on Steemit. Majority of conversations and comments are about bullshit. Steemit is mostly a place for rich to get richer

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bidoof (39) · 8 years ago

Yup. The majority of comments are spambots begging for upvotes or people giving each other empty compliments in hopes of getting noticed. This is the first legitimate conversation I've seen here.

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bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

I respect your belief on this topic and as I often do, I tend to look at both sides of the argument. I think Richard Dawkins is incredibly intelligent even though I disagree with his beliefs. Here is something you can take into consideration too. http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/did-jesus-exist/

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logic (67) · 8 years ago

Thanks for reply but you missed the point by saying "I respect your belief", as my view of world is not based on any belief. I do not BELIEVE in ANYTHING. I CONSIDER the most probable POSSIBILITIES by trying to take into account all facts, I have been lucky to be aware of, that science has discovered so far :-)

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bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

To me that is your belief, but I understand we see it differently. Im excited to see where this takes us as more posts unfold.

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holdencaulfield (34) · 8 years ago (edited)

Zeitgeist is a really really bad documentary. It cites no sources and literally makes things up (like saying Christ was based on Horus, news to the thousands of secular and religious Jesus scholars).

Here's a really good debunking:

http://crossexamined.org/whats-wrong-with-the-zeitgeist-movie/ (A christian site, but the debunking is original from a skeptical site that has since gone bust and that was the only place that still had it)

EDIT Skeptic Project has a much better point by point rebuttal, I thought people would appreciate a more scientific host: http://skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/

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cryptoclub (55) · 8 years ago

This one I think is the best, but difficult to get a believer to commit 10 minutes of their life to the actual origin of their mythology. Super interesting stuff though. After I watched it, even my unconscious fears of religion melted away. Watch it, what could you lose?

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