NO! Steemit Inc is not Steem and Ned is not our Messiah

personz (66) · 6 years ago

I'm tired of reading about people who are tired about the deserved criticism of Ned and Steemit Inc., so I guess we're even.

The widespread reaction is based on a correct reading of the status quo as it at least has been up until now and it's justified. How it works is this:

The top witnesses, some of them very cosy with Ned and Steemit, are the ones who control the platform itself, not what people do on it which is a different matter, so the backlash is only concerned with that (where people get it right that is). @dtube is something on the platform not the platform.

Those top witnesses generally follow the lead of the main contributor and in fact owner of the blockchain code, Steemit Inc. and employees. This is because they have a working professional relationship, and because it has been cheaper for the witnesses to allow Steemit to do this rather than fund or do the changes themselves. That's not to say they don't disagree and even have heated arguments, I was up until recently privy to some of those and got to see the relationship first hand. Unfortunately now we don't see these conversations so much on the chain as we used to around say HF17.

It is also naive to think that Ned's comments do not affect the public image of Steem the blockchain, not just Steemit Inc. his company. Steemit Inc. intentionally positioned themselves as architects and guardians of the platform, as well as the main beneficiary if you look at finances alone.

All of this isn't to say that they haven't done good work. Their efforts created a mutually beneficial arrangement between them, devs and general users, a virtuous circle. They couldn't have done it without the users, but still it is important to recognize that Steem is essentially a gift. They've often done things which undermine various aspects of their own designs, they prefer to do things opaquely, and they can be arrogant, but this is par for the course.

If you are talking about the platform, then it is only witnesses than can change the cosy cartel with Steemit Inc., and it is only large stakeholders which can change the witnesses. Since Steemit Inc. have a large stake, and not all of what they control is actually apparent, you can see how this supports itself. So the message should be to the other whales and in fact every stakeholder to change their witness votes to those who support non-Steemit Inc. development. That would bring the change people claim to want. We need to step up as blockchain developers now.

As for making apps on the blockchain, none of this stops anything and people's recent lack of lustre pretty plainly comes down to the price drop, which isn't directly to do with any of these events as it's more tied to Bitcoin, which is tied to the stockmarket, which is tied to things waaaaay outside of this scope. To those developers I just say: keep going.

$1.06

8 votes

novacadian (58) · 6 years ago

Those top witnesses generally follow the lead of the main contributor and in fact owner of the blockchain code,

Mind explaining how you see the open source code as being owned by someone?

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personz (66) · 6 years ago

I'm very well aware that it is open source, but open source does not preclude the possibility of ownership. As you're probably hoping to point out though, it does bear thinking about as it's not entirely clear.

This post musing on the subject is a pretty good consideration of the subject, here are a few of the most relevant points:

According to the standard open-source licenses, all parties are equals in the evolutionary game. But in practice there is a very well-recognized distinction between 'official' patches, approved and integrated into the evolving software by the publicly recognized maintainers, and 'rogue' patches by third parties. Rogue patches are unusual, and generally not trusted

[...]

There are, in general, three ways to acquire ownership of an open-source project. One, the most obvious, is to found the project. When a project has had only one maintainer since its inception and the maintainer is still active, custom does not even permit a question as to who owns the project.

If you read this, and especially the entire post, perhaps you can see where I am coming from with my claim that Steemit owns the blockchain (the steemd project) code.

Here's another interesting announcement from the Steemit blog which could be considered the next one from the one you posted: Steemd is now completely free to use with an MIT License. The license before explicitly forbade anyone to create a new genesis block, that is, to start a different blockchain based on any part of the Steem blockchain code. It's only since this change that other blockchains like Smoke.io are legally able to use this code in their own projects.

The take home points are that open source software does not mean a fully permissive license (although Steemd now has one) and that customs and practice matter when considering ownership.

But just to be clear, yes, anyone can use it, which is probably what you're meaning to say I guess.

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novacadian (58) · 6 years ago (edited)

But just to be clear, yes, anyone can use it, which is probably what you're meaning to say I guess.

No, my point was that no one owns it. Your logic might hold, somewhat, on the Bitcoin Core code or the latest Google Android release. Yet even Bitcoin Core could not halt Bitcoin Cash's fork. However it goes even further with the STEEM Project, in my opinion, because the Witnesses decide the final direction of the package, not Steemit, Inc.

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anomadsoul (77) · 6 years ago

First of all thanks for the long reply, I appreciate people reading and taking the time to rely when it comes to topics like this one. I'm currently afk but in a few hours I'll get to replying to all of the comments.

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personz (66) · 6 years ago

That would be interesting, thanks

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steemedbot (25) · 6 years ago

Sorry, I am newbi here. Why did you mention "it is only large stakeholders which can change the witnesses."? Is it not the number of accounts that crown witness?

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coloneljethro (58) · 6 years ago (edited)

It's the number of STEEM those accounts hold rather than the number of accounts that matters, hence the large stakeholders play a much larger role in selection of witnesses.

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geekpowered (69) · 6 years ago

I absolutely blame @Ned and Steemit. I also blame witnesses though. @Ned could have done a LOT more to encourage decentralized open source development. I don't think that he should necessarily step down for that though. Steemit is acting like a standard corporation that's working on an open source project. That's not what they are. They're leading a decentralized platform. They need to do more to decentralize the development.

Witnesses, likewise, did not do enough to encourage open source development. You can fork Steem and the Steemit front-end, Condenser, but that's not enough. If someone wants to get into open source development here, for the most part they're on their own. It's a lot easier to join teams doing other projects on Steem. That's a problem. The witnesses could have made up for Steemit's lack of leadership for open source development and created forums and lists of features todo and brought in new developers. They didn't. They can't even keep us updated.

Ned and Steemit are absolutely part of the reason that Steem is down. If they had done more to make it easier for people to get into development, then a lot more development would have gotten done. Instead they've just sort of been doing their own thing and announcing major changed, and doing major changes all on their own, releasing code that's far too big to review quickly, giving witnesses the options of either approving it without full review, or denying it simply because they can't review it fast enough. That is not how you run an open source project. They are clearly horrible leaders. The witnesses did not stand up though, so they are all culpable. That's not to say some of them haven't done great work though.

DTube was created because someone was tired of all the people talking about it and just got it done. That is awesome...but open source cannot rely on people just jumping in and getting things done. They have to provide them with at least a little help, maybe direction.

This place is decentralized. That doesn't mean no one's to blame. Everyone is. Tons of people didn't know what to do. They could have just jumped in and started doing things...and some did...but that's not how you run an open source project. You don't just put the code out there and expect people to go through it and update it and fix all your mistakes and add a bunch of cool ass features.

As far as community...people absolutely stepped forward. Tons of efforts are out there. Sadly most of them are using Discord. There's still a lot that needs to be done with that though. A lot of people are a lot more experiences with online communities than they are with organizing online development. To do a curation effort you just gotta get a place to share links. You can even do it in a chat room, which is why Discord has been used by so many.

People can bitch all they want and they will. It is absolutely their right. And their voices influences others. Bitching is doing something. Revolutions are started with some people simply bitching. People who think it's only up to Steemit don't understand open source, but that doesn't mean they should shutup. They can get involved in the community and help things out, and many will, but they can also bitch all they want.

It's gonna take more than just Steemit to moon, yes. But your bitching about people bitching doesn't help either. You could have chosen to make this more of a positive post, but you didn't. You're doing just like them, blaming people. We're all to blame. Steem has failed all together. Your bitching won't change anything either, except make some people feel like shit. More of us need to get involved, yes, and get others involved, but that won't happen by shaming them for having an opinion without doing more.

$0.97

3 votes

anomadsoul (77) · 6 years ago

Thanks for the big reply, tonight I'll get to answer all the comments and address some points you mention. These kind of arguments are good, they encourage discussions and I appreciate you taking the time to leave a long comment.

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geekpowered (69) · 6 years ago

And I appreciate you being open to differing opinions. This is the social network of Steem after all, so we need to be social, and occasionally argue and bitch. :P

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artwatch (63) · 6 years ago

Here here! Well put - little bitches together. ;P

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rosepac (55) · 6 years ago

Totally agree.

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niallon11 (68) · 6 years ago

Just because you love the community doesn't mean you have to blindly push the party line. It's that kind of pc thinking that most of us here are trying to get away from. Agreeing with everything just because it's not acceptable to think differently anymore. It's OK to disagree, to shout and to be angry with what's happening. We're individuals with different ideas and opinions.

The important part is not to give out for the sake of it. To abuse people just because you can. If a person doesn't like what is happening it is on them to offer a different way or a different solution tho the issue. Show us an alternative to the problem rather than just giving out about it. That won't change anything.

Some people are making great efforts to help out and to add value to the project here but i do worry about the lack of cohesion. De-centralisation is great to distribute power and direction but i do feel we need a more coherent plan going forward. If there was more communication between groups and developers to work towards a common interest. A froum of sorts to discuss ideas that could help and to allow people without the tech skills to get involved in ideas that they have an interest in. Whether it is games, marketing, curating, development. A swop meet of skills and ideas really to help get more people involved. Sometimes it can be hard to get off the sidelines and get into the game. It would be nice to see groups looking for people and finding projects to jump into.

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personz (66) · 6 years ago

I've disagreed with you before but I think you're right on target here. Well put.

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niallon11 (68) · 6 years ago

No problem. I've never had a bother with people disagreeing with me as long as they can tell my why they think i'm wrong. We all have different views on life.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

Well said my dear @niallon11

Well said ....

Yours, Piotr

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niallon11 (68) · 6 years ago

Thanks Piotr.

Saw your message earlier and i'm alive and well. However working in retail my time is not my own as much as i would like for the next few weeks. Xmas is like that for me and i have to prioritize my full time job for a few days and take my attention off what i do on here.

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crypto.piotr (70) · 6 years ago

I'm simply glad that you're fine and sound @niallon11 (is this right expression)?

I was a bit worried that perhaps you decided to quit steemit (as many people seem to do recently).

Enjoy your Xmas buddy :)
Yours
Piotr

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ssjsasha (67) · 6 years ago

which is why I BOUGHT more steem power and finally hit my goal of 10,000 sp ... but with prices this low I am thinking why not get more

$0.26

3 votes

novacadian (58) · 6 years ago

Yep just bought up from Minnow to Dolphin last week and much lower will have me back for more. 🖕

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clumsysilverdad (64) · 6 years ago

nice call, i'm a new dolphin

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chekohler (70) · 6 years ago

We can't really blame people for not understanding the relationship between steem, steemit inc and steemit the website. It takes quite a bit of time to do your research and understand what these elements.

Its part of the teething issues being in this unique situation being a blockchain/currency/dapp provider/social media.

Its clearly apparent now that the community needs to take over the social media and front end aspect and find away to get users off the reliance of steemit.com

$0.08

4 votes

katrina-ariel (65) · 6 years ago

Yep. If we want a truly decentralized blockchain, we can’t rely on one entity to deliver. I think Steemit inc, Ned and company have done a lot to bring us where we are and will continue to contribute, but relying on them to do everything is not a viable or wise option. This growth happening right now is a good thing, and I think it will create a more secure, successful blockchain. Complaining doesn’t help, but there’s lots we can do to participate. I’m focused on user retention through engagement and encouragement. The onboarding initiative is fabulous, as are many other projects in the works. Steemit stepping back some is a positive thing, if we truly want this to be decentralized. And I think we do. I do, anyway. And, for the record, Steemit sent me and four other people to Steemfest, for which I will always be grateful, so zero complaining coming from this mama!

$0.06

4 votes

svemirac (71) · 6 years ago

As long as steemit is holding almost all steem in their wallet we won't have proper decentralization. After all steemit account is holding 45Million steem. Can you cumulate this number in 3 accounts on steemit? And even if you could it is still pretty centralized.

Decentralization means a French dude creating @dtube for video creators instead of Ned doing it.

Decentralizing efforts is showed when a pair of British guys take Steem and promote it in summits and conferences via @oracle-d, that's not Steemit Inc's job.

Now about this - what would dtube be and oracle-d without steemit's/ned's delegation of 1 /2 million steem? nothing...

A true decentralized community translates into a ton of people taking over curation initiatives like @ocd, @curie and @qurator, instead of what happened at the beginning where @steemit handled most curation via trails.

I've been in curie for some time - currently its dying - obviously steem(it) don't need it. that's a fact we haven't had delegation nor any support than few nice words from the same people here and there, and now the only whale that has been with curie around for almost entire life is powering down (not killing the trail vote still). Next thing - I love OCD, and yes, they did immoral thing to go with the bot but they are thriving at the moment, so glad for the team and they still curate manually which is great!
Now qurator - really don't know what is it about them - you pay it once to enter on their list, give them upvotes delegate to them and they vote you once a day no matter what you post - how can that contribute to community? They tend to pick up all the cream - Curation rewards, liquid payments, and give random votes for all voters. ...

We started this project - and response was pretty slim - some interaction without any recognition, as soon as we boosted our vote to arund $1 - there is some talk and more recognition - but let's be honest in a 6 month we can suffocate ourself with even rising a vote to $1.5 - without some divine intervention.

So... currently we can't talk about decentralization if everyone depends on Ned's delegation because everyone else will be delegating to bots (profit - that's what we are looking for).

$0.02

3 votes

newageinv (70) · 6 years ago

I would go even further to say that without decentralization the ecosystem will still be limited to blogging for engagement. Thanks to creative thinkers and developers we have many other great ways to engage which not only impact our digital life but our physical as well. Would they have thought of a card game that brings collectionists and gamers together to engage? Or an app to track our fitness in the real world? These are the paradigms that we need to break and create outside of their playground to make Steem much larger that just Steemit.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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timm (67) · 6 years ago (edited)

TIMM (a market analysis Steem based community) approves this message. A very worthy rant. We need more of this.

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michellechristie (62) · 6 years ago (edited)

I totally agree with you, and as you have said a great example of effort and dedication to bring STEEM forward are the guys from @oracle-d Matt y Dylan have been a great inspiration to me. People who usually complain and criticize usually do so at all times without providing solutions. regards

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steevebot (52) · 6 years ago

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isarmoewe (64) · 6 years ago

Above all the negative stuff you mentioned I think there's a positive one too: people are thinking about issues on which they have not have their mind up before.
In other words: the way Ned acts has changed and I think it's well deserved to have it reflected here. And of course also by people who are now facing a situation they did not have before.
During HF20 and after quite some people have left (and others did before HF20 being unhappy with the income they got from Steemit I suppose). All or the majority of them did not have to deal with any communication from Ned because it was just too far away and did not have an effect on their daily Steemit experience.
This has changed within the last months.

In fact, a lot has changed within the last 4-6 months. And more change is coming up.
Change is always up to create fear in the people if anything is unclear.

I also think that Ned won't be replaced as the face of the game too soon. His words in the news post stating that the company laid off 70% of the staff would have deserved to be different then, I suppose.

A lot of people came here to have their individualism valued. They don't seek hierarchical structure or responsibility for a society. And this is adding to the fear and anger too.

Just my 2 cents. :)

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honeydue (68) · 6 years ago

Well, thing is writing a rant takes much less time and effort than actually doing something proactive, which is why most people just want to complain. It's the system we're used to, on the outside _{(how weird it is that we think of the world outside Steem as such)} where pretty much everything depends on a teacher, a parent, a boss, a government official etc. We live our lives believing we're not in control, which is rarely true, but it's an easy way out. If you're not in control, you're not to blame either.
Besides, many on Steem feel entitled, but they don't want to actually have to do stuff for the community, for the platform. You know, this place is great, but as long as I can come here, get some cash out of it, then go about my life. Maybe have some fun chats, but not much else. Don't rely on me or nothing.
It's a common attitude...

I love what you wrote here, it's very true and it sums up a lot of my own feelings about all the negativity on the platform. Oh and also,

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personz (66) · 6 years ago

More than that, commentary is it's own kind of format, it almost doesn't matter what's being said. I tend to only take seriously those commentators that also engage with the comments on their posts. Otherwise it's just punditry.

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anomadsoul (77) · 6 years ago

I'll get back to this in a while! Thanks for commenting 😘

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raj808 (71) · 6 years ago

Lol I didn't read the comments before I made.... a very similar gif :-( epic comment fail from me ;-)

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kantos (62) · 6 years ago

Excelente material, es primera vez que te leo de esta manera, con tanta fuerza y con un espiritu tan alentador, no por tus críticas, bien fundamentadas, sino por el valor que le brindas a la blockchain con tus palabras de ánimo a hacer las cosas bien, por "tomar tu silla, tu puesto en una comunidad" y trabajar desde ahí por el bien de nuestra plataforma; estoy de acuerdo contigo, sí, se puede criticar, pero para mejorar, siempre poniendo tu posción clara, y si vemos que hay un problema, pues ofreciendo soluciones es la mejor manera.
Te Felicito por tan buen post, lleno de fuerza, energía y templanza, amigo @anomadsoul.

Again...

THANK YOU!

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https://steemit.com/@mepatriot/recent-replies

mepatriot (69) · 6 years ago

As long as angry whales are allowed to do this stuff...literally crapping all over minnows they don't like:

...and giving out thousands of programmed, automated & malicious ideologically-driven downvotes from hundreds of account created merely for the purpose (and for making money on self-upvoting their own piles of turd) newbies aren't going to come around or stay long.

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bozz (70) · 6 years ago

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It always drives me crazy when people expect someone to step down over something that they potentially have little control over. Having a person step down isn't going to suddenly fix the problem. The problem will still exist. Now you have created a vacuum though that will just lead to other problems and we would be so busy trying to fix them that the main problem would still never get fixed. Sometimes things can be done by those in power or those with influence though and if they refuse to help or are purposely hampering growth then something should be done. As you said though, that doesn't appear to be the case here.

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schattenjaeger (71) · 6 years ago (edited)

I'm tired of people giving this place the time of day while the alternatives are already out there.

I'm already being rewarded better elsewhere. And while those tokens are not as valuable as STEEM, STEEM is coming down to their level anyway.

Also, decentralization sucks, and Steemit is proof lol.

I don't even know why I wasted my time reading your post. But don't worry: the ass kissers will be here to kiss your ass due to your delegation.

So, it's all peachy in the end.

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anomadsoul (77) · 6 years ago

I wanted opinions and arguments, I got them, even from you. Reading other people's take in the matter counts for me :)

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schattenjaeger (71) · 6 years ago

And you're a condescending dick. Have a nice day.

":)"

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dreemit (71) · 6 years ago

Are you kidding me with this?? Am I doomed to run into your bullshit now? And HOLY HYPOCRISY, you have the brownest tongue on the platform! Of course you would mistake Eric's tone as condescending, you couldn't recognize a true individual- it takes one to know one and you sure as hell have proved you're not one.

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schattenjaeger (71) · 6 years ago

Am I doomed to run into your bullshit now?

No. You can just mute me. :D
And it's not like I'm here often anymore.

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purapapita (68) · 6 years ago

Mientras unos lloran, otros venden pañuelos, lleguensé en venta 3x1, barato barato pañuelos a buen precio

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manuelramos (70) · 6 years ago

Yo estoy vendiendo bastantes pañuelos! Steemit nos da dinero y de paso nos quejamos. Steemit nos ha dado grandes herramientas . . . . y de paso . . . nos quejamos......@purapaita hola bebé! Seguiremos vendiendo pañuelos!

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clumsysilverdad (64) · 6 years ago

we r the decentralized

steem in 2019 !

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ladyrebecca (65) · 6 years ago

I'm glad someone with your influence takes a stand against all the negativity on the platform.

Posted using Partiko Android

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buttcoins (67) · 6 years ago

It is easy to complain... and so many in this life relate through complaint. It is a sad reality of the state of humanity. We can do little to counteract this besides not complaining ourselves.
That being said.... I completely relate and agree with your complaint!! 😉😂😎

Posted using Partiko iOS

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irvinc (63) · 6 years ago

Un mensaje muy claro y directo. Estoy de acuerdo con tu posición. Son muchas las cosas que podemos aportar los que hacemos vida en el ecosistema. Es bueno que haya gente como tú que diga las cosas con firmeza. Felicitaciones.

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meesterboom (78) · 6 years ago (edited)

Yeah the comments can be quite dreary, especially some 'newer' accounts which seem to focus solely on talking down Steemit or steem.

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steem-ua (64) · 6 years ago

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rikaz87 (63) · 6 years ago

Thank you @nomadsoul. I got the point, and your stuff already bright me up.

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fr3eze (68) · 6 years ago

I don't have any problem with him or his company. But the significant amount of SP holding is what bugging me all the time. And obviously this is the biggest reason people are hoping the centralized Steemit inc to do something.

Completely agree with you on the point that I would be more than happy too if the company is willing to stepping out of the throne, provided they burnt all that power away(SP). Else, Steem is still very much centralized.

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partiko (66) · 6 years ago

Thank you so much for participating the Partiko Delegation Plan Round 1! We really appreciate your support! As part of the delegation benefits, we just gave you a 3.00% upvote! Together, let’s change the world!

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llfarms (68) · 6 years ago

Yes, this.. 100x this. Glad to have you standing up to spread this message and I’m with you man!

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raj808 (71) · 6 years ago

Just something to tickle the funny bone when so many people are freaking out so much. You're completely right in what you say in this post. I don't know why many people don't get the fact that decentralization means just that... decentralized infrastructure. We are all part of the company.

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ocdb (56) · 6 years ago

You got a 74.62% upvote from @ocdb courtesy of @anomadsoul!

@ocdb is a non-profit bidbot for whitelisted Steemians, current max bid is 15 SBD and the respective amount in Steem.
Check our website https://thegoodwhales.io/ for the whitelist, queue and delegation info. Join our Discord channel for more information.

If you like what @ocd does, consider voting for ocd-witness through SteemConnect or on the Steemit Witnesses page. :)

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khanza.aulia (69) · 6 years ago

Dude @anomadsoul! I am very interested in your post, because I also read how many of them complained. They can only do that, they should think in this decentralized platform, the way to contribute to make Steem better.

I myself took this opportunity to help Steem by my own way. I was only able to power up about 2K steem. Hope my small contribution can help this platform.

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bboyady (64) · 6 years ago

Word!!!! I love this man. You are truly right

Posted using Partiko Android

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steemitboard (66) · 6 years ago

Congratulations @anomadsoul! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

You made more than 34000 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 35000 upvotes.

_{Click here to view your Board of Honor}
_{If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP}

Support SteemitBoard's project! Vote for its witness and get one more award!

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steevebot (52) · 6 years ago

This post was upvoted by SteeveBot!

SteeveBot regularly upvotes stories that are appreciated by the community around Steeve, an AI-powered Steem interface.

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javirid (56) · 6 years ago

Decentralization means a French dude creating @dtube for video creators instead of Ned doing it.
Decentralizing efforts is showed when a pair of British guys take Steem and promote it in summits and conferences via @oracle-d, that's not Steemit Inc's job.

That's growing the ecosystem, not decentralizing it.

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chesatochi (72) · 6 years ago (edited)

Complain sometimes is good to release the anger and frustration.

People judge you by your actions and not words.

I believe the community have the intention to make shine this blockchain.

Posted using Partiko Android

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olivia08 (69) · 6 years ago (edited)

Well said Sir [@anomadsoulI agree 200% on what you said.If steemians really cared for it, don't blame anyone, all crypto currencies are going low not only steem.Instead of blaming, why not help each other to move on this downturned and make positive outlook so steemit will be back like before. For me,the best thing happened is the community who shared everything and changed life for many of us.God bless you Sir and I love your thought.

Posted using Partiko Android

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viking-ventures (69) · 6 years ago

I'm with @chekohler on this one. It's definitely difficult to understand the relationship between Steem, Steemit and SteemInc - it takes awhile to even know there is a difference between the three!

For what it's worth, I think Steemit (as a site) has done a fabulous job testing the waters on this whole concept. Yes, there's a lot of criticism, and unfortunately, sometimes it's easier to see what is wrong than to be able to put forth what might be a better solution - that's not everyone's gift.

I do think the whole RC thing needs to be further adjusted as newbies really cannot engage with the community as they need to. (Or make it so that I can donate/delegate some of my excess RCs to someone who needs them - that I can see is of value to the community.) I ran into "bandwidth" issues, but that was a waiting game. The RCs are harder to work with.

I admit that I don't even pretend to know who to talk to with ideas and thoughts, simply because I spend time creating content, not trying to work out the political/technical ins and outs of this platform.

On the whole, I think the Steemit platform is fabulous. It's offered hope for so many who wanted to blog, but found standard blogging difficult/impossible to adhere to. (I'd tried several times.) It's depressing with Steem being so far down, but all cryptos are struggling right now - as is the stock market itself. We can't really expect Steem to out-perform even the stock market - at least not yet.

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yasu24 (70) · 6 years ago

Thank you for a great article. I would like to contribute to the Steem community as a member of @Steemit-jp @Ocd @Fuundition @Oracle-D @Trips.teem @Partiko.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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