Economic Improvement Proposal - Noob look on it

in steem •  5 years ago  (edited)

So i read all kind of posts about it, people that are sure it will be great, people that are sure it will suck...

So the overall idea is to make people curate more, stop self voting, get the bid bots and vote selling under control...

Now i am not a mathematician and did not go to much in to the curve but it will start low and as votes (shares) go up it will be worth more and more.

They (not sure who they are) say that the goal is to get more manual curation. That implies that everyone wants more people on the platform. Let's assume new people will not be dolphins when they register. Now they write a post or 30 and someone stumbles upon their post that has 0 votes. let's say he is a minnow. he likes the post but as he is first to vote, and the possibility that some dolphin or orca will see that post is very low, he has a choice to vote 100% and still not jump over the dust vote (dust vote is around 0.020-0.025$) and just throw his 100% vote away, or just ignore that post and vote for someone that is here for year or two and has followers that will vote for him. What will the minnow do?

Now that new user got to 20-30 posts with most dust votes on his posts, but some get to 0.50$ and then he learns that he gets only 0.25 and on some front ends not even that.

Interaction on posts will probably go down because you can't reward people that follow and comment on your posts because to get over the dust you would probably have to be at least a dolphin.

So what will new user that will not even earn for coffee, with no interaction on his blogs, after a month of trying to figure out wallets, all kind of keys, claiming rewards (that will probably not be his problem)... do? well he will say, F-u steem i am of to instagram, there at least i get hearts and kisses and cute, nice, wow, emoticon comments.

And yes of course i will now downvote bernie or whoever (never really checked who the whales are) so he/she can set up a auto downvote bot on my posts at 1% (not sure is it possible to go lower) with his free downvote pool. sure.

IT IS HIGHLY POSSIBLE THAT I JUST MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT I JUST WROTE IS WRONG, SO PLEASE TELL ME IF I DID. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW.

proposal.jpg

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Hey there.. there is a lot to digest in the most recent hardfork talks, the one thing that I’m personally a big supporter of is the Steem Proposal System (SPS) and getting sustainable funding for it and I think the inflation pool makes sense for this perosnally.

Here is an overview and opinion on the suggested changes by timcliff, who is a top witness.

https://steemit.com/hf21/@timcliff/hardfork-21-steem-proposal-system-sps-economic-improvement-proposal-eip

Remember that it is all just discussion now, some which has been going on for awhile. As far as the economics proposal the actual percentages of the curve itself have not been decided and the most I’ve seen in those talks is the dust vote doubling (which could always be changed btw). I honestly do not see it being anywhere close to the $0.25 you mentioned.

The idea isn’t so much to even make people want to curate more, but rather to make the incentives more beneficial when voting for content creators. As of now if someone wants to see a return on their investment, it’s easier just to delegate to a bid bot or spam and upvote yourself.

The proposal itself really does have to be looked at like a package as it’s designed to work together for optimal effectiveness.

As in, yes the change to 50:50 (or 45:45 if considering SPS funding) individuals would still probable choose to post crap content and upvote it themselves or use a bid bot.. but that is where the downvote pool comes in. High stake holders would then not hade to give up any potential ROI to fight this sort of behavior and therefore could downvote those large accounts guilty of this as well as those who are abusing the bid bots.

This hopefully would change the behavior. It’s not more beneficial for an individual to vote for someone else rather than risk loosing money (by being downvoted) by abusing the system.

I am not a huge fan of the change if I’m honest.. as I feel the SPS is vital and should be the focus as well as thinking the downvote pool on its own (if used correctly) could change the behavior, but I’m not an expert here and can 100% say that the system as is is broken and we need to do something. What that something is is not for me to say though I guess.

I do find it extremely concerning that community curation guilds are jumping on the bus to support the change without fully understanding it and makes me concerned that they have lost focus and are only seeing the positive financial impact this could have on them rather than weighing the decisions fully, which is unfortunate.

Anyways, I’m rambling.. hopefully you find Tims post helpful, I know things are a bit confusing right now.

i see that my free write rambling got 2 from 5 people (almost 50% so it is my fault) confused about dust vote :D i even had no idea that there are talks about changing the dust vote. from what i learned till now the dust is around 0.020 - 0.025

Now that new user got to 20-30 posts with most dust votes on his posts, but some get to 0.50$ and then he learns that he gets only 0.25 and on some front ends not even that.

with this part i was just trying to demonstrate that new users get mostly nothing and maybe few posts will get something (with new curve a lot less) and after initial happiness of getting half of a buck he then sees that half will be given to curators. now reading this, if it is 45:45 and then for example dtube takes 10 so creator would get 35% from his post.

i look on SPS as a done deal and i forgot about it, it is what it is, and it will be funded as they decide, and yes it could be good for the chain.

no one told us how EIP would do good for new people. and i HOPE that everyone on the chain wants more people here. But with this it looks like big stakeholders want the social network with 1000 people, then you don't even have to think who you would vote for, we could have a consensus to vote for same 100 people, they get half, we get half...

Ah, no I apologize as I misunderstood what you meant 🙂

There is no talk of the dust vote “changing” rather the discussion about the curve and how it will effect the dust was part of the discussion, which hasn’t been determined yet and may not be effected at all.

The EIP is something that many have been discussing for years, so I think they just sort of a assume everyone knows about it etc. I disagree with that attitude and think it should be explained in detail and how they see it benefiting the platform long term and have told them so.

I can say that everyone here wants Steem to be mainstream and the goals are always how to attract more people here, it’s just we need to attract all sorts of people, including investors and end users a like. Sometimes it’s hard in a decentralized environment to get the organization needed to achieve these things as quickly and wanted.

I don’t want to try to defend their proposal, as I’m really not a huge fan of how it’s being done, but in theory if all the pieces worked as they should then authors would make more.

This would be due to the fact that investors would see the value of delegating to curation efforts rather than bid bots or to spam and upvote themselves. (Due to the consequence that could come from downvotes for doing so). Also because the downvote pool would help change the abusive culture, which gives more to the rewards pool to be allocated to users.

None of this is set in stone and will not be until Steemit Inc. releases a code and sets a date for the HF, then a consensus of the top witnesses has to agree to run the code. Only then will these changes (maybe not even all of them) go into effect.

Then if it doesn’t give the wanted result, a change can be made to try something else.. this truly is an experimental platform and with that comes trial and error. The rewards mechanism currently is broken and is incentivizing abuse which is bad for everyone as well as the longevity of Steem. This proposal is an attempt to fix things.

do agree that something needs to change, but no one told me what effect would this have on new users and users that are not that new but still not evolved to mammals. except when steem will be 10$ everyone will be happy.
i said it few times in the past, helping steem grow should be in the interest of big stakeholders and not on the back of small ones. if steem goes to 10$ i would maybe afford to go to steemfest, but a holder of 500.000 steem will afford to go to steem fest, to by a lambo, and a vila.

i'd say it's more likely that a few bidbots will be stronger than ever while smaller ones die out. whales will have more influence but maybe it'd create stronger demand for steem. who knows.

Sta sam ja ovde sve propustila..
Znaci ludilo :)
I ovaj down vote koji se pojavio, cemu to?

najbolja stvar je ne pratiti desavanja :D posle se samo iznenadis, al lakse ti padne :D

down vote je u stvari ista stvar sto je do sad bio flag al su mislili da je ovako pristupacniji i vise ce se koristiti.

i na planu je da se uvede novi pool za downvote gde bi 25% bilo free, ne bi se trosilo iz ovog za upvote. tako zele da povecaju broj ljudi koji ce flagovati/downvotovati spam i sta god.

0.5$ is way too much for dust threshold, I'm not sure if that is true, and probably unreachable for the majority of the platform (believe it or not).

It's the same old thing with "new" users (the ones that stay)... Currently, there are few projects out there seeking for them and supporting them in order to get better traction and visibility... well, nowadays it's not working at all.

Most likely with 50/50 people will vote more, but there is the old question - who will get these votes, their friends, their accounts, closed group of friends.
For sure with 50/50 bots will earn more - UNLESS... the free flag thingy put some caution into using the bots, i.e. you pay for the vote for someone to take it away = > why would you risk it ==>> less job for bid bots.

And regarding downvotes... we have a centralized institution with more than 1.5 million SP to do the job of flagging abusive behavior and plagiarism, and they just sit there and watch - saying we have a good reason not do downvote/flag that guy with (500k + SP) - but they can punish some good old steemian for reposting HIS OWN 1 year old work... :)

Anyway - sometimes the only thing to move forward is to take a leap of faith - but sometimes it's better to think about it for few seconds - after all concrete is deadly most of the times.

And you probably know that joke: "budha, budha, budha, budha..." :)

Guess nothing of this makes any sense :D

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

dust is around 0,020 to 0,025, never found exact number. but if i got it right, with new curve there is a good possibility that 2000 steem would not be enough to go over that if it's just one vote.

it is not the fall that kills you its the sudden stop 😀

What is a dust vote? That confused me.

Posted using Partiko iOS

if a comment or a post does not go over (not sure about exact number) 0,020$ or 0,025$ in whole (all votes on it) it is counted as a dust vote and does not go to author an curator, it goes back to the vote pool. wrote something about it, will share it tomorrow now i am on my phone.

Posted using Partiko Android

Aw, that’s lame. I didn’t know that. Thanks for explaining.

Posted using Partiko iOS

Time will explain much better

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  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment

al imas i jos ovu novu krivu koja ce tvoj glas kao malog individualca smanjiti na skoro nista ukoliko ne potrefis post koji ce biti dobro izglasan. znaci glasanje na komentare mozes da zaboravis ako nemas 5000-10000 SP

posle svih ovih promena drzava jos ispadne i fer :D