Negative Voting and Steem

in steem •  8 years ago 


My past three posts have been focused entirely on political philosophy. Unfortunately, many readers seem to think I was talking about Steem and started jumping to all kinds of unfounded conclusions. Today I would like to actually express my opinion as it relates to Steem.

Ying and Yang

All games require balance. An unbalanced game will eventually collapse once a certain strategy takes over and ensures a certain behavior unchecked profits. Steem was designed with down votes on posts (flags) as a means of keeping a certain kind of bad behavior in check.

Objectively Bad Behaviors

As someone who holds to a subjective view of reality, I like to refrain from making absolute value judgements. I also want to avoid pushing my value judgements on other people. So when I talk about objectively bad behavior I will do so without respect to the nature of content or individual voter’s opinions.

The goal of Steem is to reward users proportional to the value they bring. An objectively bad behavior is one where a user manages to get large rewards while providing others with little value. Unfortunately, value is subjective.

While it is hard to differentiate the relative value of two different things, I think something objective can be said for something that provides no value. If we assume that all information has some positive value, then the lack of information has no value. People casting votes communicates information. Every post with unique content contributes information. The value of the information provided is subjective.

A voting robot that votes “randomly” provides no new information. A poster that publishes “random” content also provides no new information. It is all noise. Some people might even say that by increasing the noise floor this kind of behavior consumes resources and destroys information and therefore could have objectively negative value.

What we can conclude from this is that “objectively bad” behavior is any behavior that can be automated using unsophisticated software and which yields the individual oversized profits.

Authors Paying themselves for Doing Nothing

This type of behavior has one user sucking value from the whole while providing no new value. Generally speaking, this kind of behavior is discouraged by the n2 rewards curve. The rate of return for self-voting on garbage post is so low for most users that it isn’t worth the effort. This reward curve forces collaboration and collusion to actually get meaningful value out of the platform.

A whale is a collusive group. This means that a whale has enough stake to earn a huge profit by voting on their own post regardless of post quality. The only thing that keeps whales from frivolously voting on themselves is the potential to be down voted by other whales. This creates a check and balance at the highest levels which protect the system from abuse.

Curation Rewards for Doing Nothing

This type of behavior is when a whale creates a bot that simply up votes everything from reputable users regardless of quality. This kind of behavior can be countered by other whales only by pushing the author rewards toward 0.

Suppose a post is sitting at a $100 pending payout and a whale up votes it to $1000 with a single vote. Other whales see that as abusive and place a counter acting down vote restoring it to $100 pending payout. The abusive whale will get the vast majority of the $25 curation rewards on that post.

When it comes to curation rewards the system is currently unbalanced. There is no way to negate the profits of abusive curators.

All Abuse is Exercised by Voting

Authors cannot abuse the platform (except by spam). It is only the voters that have the power to be “good voters” or “bad voters”. Rather than placing biased terms of “good” and “bad” I will simply assume “red” and “blue” voters. Neither red nor blue are deemed to be good or bad, they simply have a difference of opinion on where funds should be allocated.

The Steem community is continuously deciding where to allocate money. Every voter “owns” a part of the Steem network with a long term vested interest in increasing its value.

Upvote Only Economy

For the sake of simplicity lets assume budget items are voted on one at a time. The amount something gets paid is based on how many voters vote. Lets also assume there are only two options for voters, “YES” or “ABSTAIN”. Under this model a whale is granted unchecked, unilateral control over a large fraction of the budget.

The financial incentives for a whale in such a position is to embezzle as much money for personal profit as he can without killing the goose laying the golden STEEM. So long as the rate at which is stake grows is faster than the rate at which the STEEM pie shrinks, his own personal net worth will grow.

A malicious whale (hacked account, hostile takeover, etc), would short STEEM on the market and then vote to give himself as much as he could. The STEEM he gives himself can be used to cover his short position and he makes a huge profit off of the demise of the platform.

Up and Down Vote Economy

Under an economy with both up and down votes things are different. Each time a budget item is brought up for vote the voters have three options: “YES”, “NO”, or “ABSTAIN”. Under this model anyone who votes money to themselves without providing value to everyone else will be countered with an equal or greater number of “NO” votes. The system is balanced. Misallocation of funds can only occur if voters collectively allow it to happen.

Curation Rewards are an Up-vote Only Economy

Someone who up votes anything of value beyond what it is worth earns guaranteed curation profits unless others down vote the post below what it was worth. This take value away from other curators and authors and gives robotic whale curators a unchecked easy path to profit.

The abusive whale up voter is not only gaining profits, but denying others the opportunity to earn profits by forcing them to use down votes.

In other words, there is currently no way to “down vote” an “up vote” and therefore, the system is unbalanced and subject to abuse.

Removing Down Votes from Posts

Authors get offended when their post gets down voted. This is an irrational, but understandable human reaction. In reality what is going on is a disagreement among voters. Some voters think the post should be worth more, others think it should be worth less. What if we removed the option to down vote a post?

What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter? When you down vote a voter you nullify their voting power with your own voting power. It is the moral equivalent of casting equal and opposite votes on every post without offending the posters.

Under such a system authors who vote for them selves and curators who vote robotically would be negated. Only those who vote responsibly would remain. Voting spam would be eliminated.

We have the potential to completely change the game by changing the question we ask. Instead of asking whether the author did a bad job, we can ask ourselves whether the voters did a bad job.

Voters that vote poorly will kill the platform. Voters who vote well will help the platform grow.

Summary

There are many issues left to explore. People will not like having their vote canceled any more than they like having their post down voted. Curation rewards still favor those who use their power to vote over those who use their power to cancel other votes.

Bottom line, a system of only up votes will not work. The game needs to be properly balanced or someone will be able to exploit the rules for undeserved profits.

More to come in a future post.

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

Does anyone actually reading and voting on this believe this post is worth over $2500? Keep in mind, most of that value was added by Dan himself and his co-worker @val-a. Curious to hear what you all think? Does this deserve to be downvoted?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

No but more importantly the entire series (including the people-rank posts) isn't worth $12000 and most certainly does not add $12000 of value to the Steem ecosystem.

As I have said many times, founders posting platform updates (and let's be clear, Dan writing about his plans to redesign the Steem voting system is a platform update, whether he disguises it as political philosophy and claimed not to have been writing about Steem or not) getting high rewards is exploitative and impairs the ability of Steem to reward other users by depleting the reward pool.

At this point, most of the damage has already been done and this one post is just the icing on the cake. I am undecided whether or not I will be downvoting it closer to payout.

Oh, and those of you claiming that the post shouldn't be downvoted regardless of its value because it isn't plagiarism or spam clearly did not get much value from the post.

By downvote do you mean flag?

Yes. That's the only way to down-vote currently.

"downvote" a flag should be used for much more serious things on a platform advocating against censorship, although it is not censorship, it can quickly restrict users from seeing or wanting to engage with such content

That was my point. If they call it a downvote they shouldn't make it look like a little flag. We've all been on the Internet for a while now, a bit too late to retrain everyone on what a flag means.

While platform announcements / discussions should not be rewarded, there's value to their visibility. This series is certainly not worth $12,000, but it's important for the users of the platform to know what a co-founder is thinking about.

The simplest solution would be an "Announcement" tab where all voting is disabled. Another possible solution could be a way for low value posts to trend based on their importance rather than SBD generated. Reddit has the "controversial" algorithm which makes posts which have a strong mix between upvotes and downvotes. I suppose that makes sense - if something is so polarizing it's probably worth checking out. Similarly, perhaps an equal number of whales could come in and downvote these announcements, yet they would be visible on the trending page.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I agree and we have discussed precisely these issues for months. A feature to disable rewards on a post was added two months ago but is not being used.

There are many ways one can conceive of announcements and communications from the developers being made available to users without direct monetary rewards. Somehow virtually every other startup business and software project manages to do this and indeed I dare say that none would consider a founder drawing on a promotional fund to do so (for example entering these blog posts in a writing contest sponsored by the company for its users) to be appropriate.

but it's important for the users of the platform to know what a co-founder is thinking about.

Possibly. If you are an investor looking closely at the system, or if you happen to be interested in the theory and philosophy of voting systems, they you might find this series interesting and vaguely relevant. But merely as a 'user' of the system, you are probably a blogger putting up your recipes, photographs, makeup videos, art, restaurant reviews, opinions about the direction of the economy, etc. in the hopes that you get support from your followers and may or may not get rewards. In that case, you probably neither find a lot of value here nor are likely to even read or understand most of it. (Several people have explicitly commented on voting despite not reading it and others clearly, from the content of their remarks, have not read and understood it.)

There is a place for everything. High in trending with rewards draining the pool day after day is not it.

Interesting - so the feature to disable rewards already exists.

You are right - this series in particular will not interest most people on Steemit. Those who are involved closely would be following Dan anyway, the post need not trend at all.

However, broad announcements do need to be visible. Major new features, significant changes in reward algorithms, etc. Those are relevant to everyone using the platform.

@smooth That's definitely a good point and is even separate from the problem with people being able to self-upvote.

I think the question you are really asking is:

  • Should platform announcements receive any kind of payout?

I think it is clear you do not think so and I would be in agreement - it could be seen as another form of kickback and be used as ammunition by the "Steemit is a scam" crowd of people.

Obviously if @dantheman wants to post articles as a blogger on here there is nothing stopping him (nor is there anything wrong with that) but it might also make sense if official announcements are made on a separate channel to disentangle the two.

That would also remove any conflict of interest and keep his views separate from those of Steemit as a company. It might not seem important now but it will be in the future when this is a much bigger company and has the eyes of the world and the media upon it.

I'm actually really glad we are having these discussions. We may not agree on everything but we all care about the future of Steemit and by working together we can ensure that it has the best possible chance to succeed.

Obviously if @dantheman wants to post articles as a blogger on here there is nothing stopping him

I mostly agree and I have never downvoted his 'blogger' posts, though it isn't impossible in theory that those too could be abusively and excessively voted especially if he and his co-workers and friends are voting for them.

However, a lot of times the 'blogging' veers into areas that are inextricably tied up with his official duties as the Steem lead developer. If he is blogging about divorce that is one thing, but blogging about blockchains and voting systems is another very different thing. The latter, especially, should not put him in a position of personally enriching himself by using his position to compete for rewards with the very users the system is trying to attract.

Perhaps he should create a normal "blogger" account without all the steempower? It would allow him to have the same level of "voice" as other bloggers without the payout distortion.

@smooth That's why I think the self upvoting should be removed and the official announcements and personal accounts should be entirely separate for Dan.

Then there will be no confusion and no possibility of "self-enrichement" as you call it (which is a better term than kickbacks lol).

So both problems would be solved and it is a pretty easy solution.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@thecryptofiend it seems to me like all that would accomplish is allowing site admins like dan and others to upvote their personal posts with their "official" accounts and their official posts with their personal accounts.

@dantheman, for example, isn't even dans biggest account, voting power wise. And i suspect that nearly every big whale has a similarly large proxy account.

I agree with@thecryptofiend, down voting should be removed to avoid an unfair advantage to large players voting for themselves and inflating unnecessarily steem dollars. There is no information value in seeing someone's upvoting it's own posts, in my view.

Well said. Platform announcements, solicitation for community feedback regarding the platform really should be reward free. Personal blogs I won't weigh in on... but you make a great point.

Sorry @smooth if I sent you a message about a woman that needs help. Just couldn't help it.

I must disagree. @dantheman is abiding by the protocol of the blockchain. You seem to want to create arbitrary political rules that aren't enforced by the blockchain. You are free to turn Steem into a political clusterfuck if you want. I certainly won't complain :D

As I have said many times, founders posting platform updates getting high rewards is exploitative and impairs the ability of Steem to reward other users by depleting the reward pool.

What about all other posts in the meta category: posts about new features in the GUI, new third party tools, explanations how bots work, presentations on Steem statistics etc? If you think the devs should not be allowed to earn anything from "posting platform updates", then, if we want to stay consistent, all other similar posts by other people should also be treated in a similar way.

I find @dan's posts quite useful. Most of them are not pure announcements - they give me a valuable insight about @dan's motivations, explain the whole context, and explain what problems he identified and why he had to reject alternative solutions. If they were pure announcements, then yes, they don't deserve much payout. But these are not just "platform updates".

So, you think a few short posts about how voting philosophy is informing evolving designs for the Steem platform are a good use of $12000 from the reward pool, as opposed to, say, rewarding 120 good-but-currently-unrewarded posts $100 each? You are entitled to that view, but I respectfully disagree.

We must admit that almost all financial rewards here in Steem are disconnected from the "real world" value. Yes, $12000 is well overpriced if we compare it to the outside world prices, but so are many other posts and comments, including mine.

I think it will be very difficult to draw a line between platform update announcements and educational blog posts describing somebody's thought process. For me, @dan's posts fall more or less half way between those two extremes.

@berniesanders - Interesting question but I think most people in the community are in consensus over the fact that flagging a post because you think it is overvalued is wrong. Value is by it's very nature subjective.

Whilst I respect all you have done for the community - I believe it is up to the market to decide what the value of a post is by voting for it. If the flag was still a downvote then it might be acceptable.

The downvote option no longer exists though and was changed to a flag for that very reason.

You flag posts that plagiarise, rip off or are otherwise abusive (not because you disagree with them or you don't value them).

However you do bring up an important point though. Whales up-voting their posts are in effect giving themselves a huge payout which attracts many other voters hoping for curation rewards and a piece of the pie. Even if the rewards aren't that large it doesn't matter.

Most people haven't read the white paper or other material relating to how voting works and they never will. They see a large amount of money and a whale's name and they automatically vote on it hoping for a piece of the pie.

Not only that but I'm sure you aren't the only one who feels that there is a certain dubious morality to that concept - it's like paying yourself kickbacks. Whilst a minnow giving a self vote is a tiny drop in the ocean, a whale doing that can pay themselves more money in one go that an average minnow would make from a thousand posts.

In view of this, perhaps self-upvoing should be removed altogether. It won't completely solve these problems but it will show us the truer value of the post to the community.

I think that would be a better solution all-round but that's just my opinion. I would be interested to hear what the rest of the community think.

I strongly support the idea of removing self upvoting. I've never really understood why that's allowed in the first place, seems like there would be a lot of temptation to abuse it for anyone whose vote is worth a decent amount. Even though my vote is not worth hardly anything, I would still feel a bit guilty voting for myself.

I agree with you but it's impossible to enforce, as you can have two accounts and use one to post and the other to upvote the first.

That's true, but for the second account's vote to mean anything you'll need to invest time and money building up the voting power of that account. If you have 10 alt accounts that combined only give you $0.01 of votes, then why bother?

I support not being able to vote on myself.

Well said:

fact that flagging a post because you think it is overvalued is wrong. Value is by it's very nature subjective.

If the flag was still a downvote then it might be acceptable. The downvote option no longer exists though and was changed to a flag for that very reason.

I've been saying this same thing. Code is law and the code most people who use Steemit.com are exposed to is the Steemit.com interface. Not only is it a flag, it was deliberately changed from a downvote to a flag. That implies intent and from a teleology philosophical argument, the "flag" means it should be for abuse only, not a downvote for subjective reasons.

Having said all that, Dan makes some good arguments here and if more "downvoting" is needed to keep things in balance, can I ask, why was it changed to a flag? If the whales keep talking about it like a downvote, and they have the most to lose if this system goes belly up, and Dan is right that negative voting is needed, then why haven't they campaigned to change the interface back to a downvote?

An alternative option is to fork Steemit.com and provide an interface that does downvote and doesn't censor content in the same way a flag does by a high reputation, high Steem Power user on Steemit.com. That, to me, would make everyone happy. They could use the interface that fits with their personal views on flagging vs. downvoting.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

That implies intent and from a teleology philosophical argument, the "flag" means it should be for abuse only

Let's put aside the issue of "downvote" vs. "flag" for the moment. Even though I don't entirely agree with your statements, in part because I don't always use the steemit.com interface, I will grant that flagging implies abuse. The point is still that abuse is subjective and excessive upvoting (including but not limited to by the poster himself and another close associate whale) can very well be a form of abuse.

Historically, the reason for the change to the icon was to discourage downvoting just because you don't like a post. For example, if someone posts a song, some people like it, the reward is not excessive, but you happen not to like it, the intent is to discourage you from frivolously downvoting.

This is very different from downvoting based on seeing excessive rewards as a form of abuse. Let me be clear: I happen to like this post and found it interesting. I didn't flag/downvote it based on like/dislike (if given a like/dislike button that didn't affect rewards, I would click like), but based on my subjective view that excessively rewarding these posts constitutes a form of abuse.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@lukestokes

Currently the interface provides no simple mechanism for: "I like the post, but feel the payout is excessive, so I'm going to vote against it using my own influence to bring the payout down, thus leaving more payouts for others." If the flag had a "reason" option which included some text (it could even just auto-post a comment to that effect if we didn't want to change the blockchain structure for the new meta data about the flag), then I think it would solve so much confusion here. It would even still follow the "abuse prevention" intent a flag implies.

I can't speak for others but 100% of the time I post a comment when I downvote for any reason (and sometimes to state a reason when upvoting if I have a reason worth noting other than "I like it and want to see it rewarded"). Obviously we can't force everyone to do that, but I definitely encourage it.

Reading through the various posts I've seen here regarding etiquette, it's hard for me to put aside the "downvote" vs. "flag" issue because, to me, it's the crux of the confusion as more and more people describe what the flag is for (preventing abuse). I get that a minority of people use other interfaces for the Steem blockchain, but I think it's safe to argue most use Steemit.com which does make a distinction between a downvote and a flag.

I guess, for me, it's hard to agree with all abuse being subjective (I'm coming from Sam Harris' Moral Landscape perspective), because some things the community, as a strong majority, does come to agreement on, such as frivolously downvoting being a detrimental activity for the network.

I agree with you, excessive upvoting can be seen as a form of abuse, especially by the very small minority which currently have such a huge influence over total payouts. Currently the interface provides no simple mechanism for: "I like the post, but feel the payout is excessive, so I'm going to vote against it using my own influence to bring the payout down, thus leaving more payouts for others." If the flag had a "reason" option which included some text (it could even just auto-post a comment to that effect if we didn't want to change the blockchain structure for the new meta data about the flag), then I think it would solve so much confusion here. It would even still follow the "abuse prevention" intent a flag implies.

Self voting should be removed, but also what if vote value was related to how close two users are to eachother in reputation?
What if two large whales, that use the website every single day, don't have as much value towards one another and more power towards newer more unique users and posts, allowing things to balance out more.

That's a fantastic idea. I'm not sure how easily it could be implemented but some sort of weight to reduce the effect of nepotism makes sense.

In view of this, perhaps self-upvoing should be removed altogether.

It is impossible to have a game theory discussion with n00bs. I am getting exhausted repeating some points over and over and over again.

You can't remove the ability to upvote yourself, because you can't prevent people from creating and funding other accounts to vote from.

A lot of things can be gamed. That is not a reason to facilitate them. Sure people can make multiple accounts to upvote themselves but without significant SP it really doesn't matter very much.

The discussion was about whales self-upvoting their own posts. If a minnow creates multiple accounts to self upvote it won't have any noticeable effect unless they put significant SP into each one.

Due to the way powering down works it isn't really very feasible for a whale to split up their SP amongst lots of accounts unless they want to spend a long time doing it.

Due to the way powering down works it isn't really very feasible for a whale to split up their SP amongst lots of accounts unless they want to spend a long time doing it.

Again I will just waste my time if I try to communicate with n00bs about programming and game theory level logic.

The whale can create a new account and upvote that from his whale sized SP. That doesn't take a long time. He doesn't need to transfer the SP.

"Again I will just waste my time if I try to communicate with n00bs about programming and game theory level logic."

Yes you will be wasting your time. If what you say is possible then the system is broken and needs to be fixed.

It is also quite funny that you take the time to respond but can't be "bothered" to give an explanation. Not only is your tone highly insulting but I suspect you are incapable of actually explaining yourself.

I was following you but your attitude has shown me that was a mistake.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@berniesanders - Interesting question but I think most people in the community are in consensus over the fact that flagging a post because you think it is overvalued is wrong. Value is by it's very nature subjective.

I see no such consensus. I see a very few vocal people saying that its against the rules to vote that way, even one thats gone so far as to make up a set of rules as to how others are allowed to vote completley out of the blue. but no actual written down rules that say so. Allowing someone to "vote" then setting rules as to how they are allowed to vote is base hypocrisy.

any of these vocal people have significant financial incentive for this position. And the main justification for this position is that some central authority decided to change the "downvote" button to a flag button.

If value is subjective, why allow only only the votes that agree with your subjective opinion?

Well maybe you should look around a little more then?

I do see it because I spend a lot of time on here and in the chat and I have come across very few people espousing your opinion except for the odd whale.

If a poll is done and shows otherwise then fair enough - I will admit to being wrong but until then I will choose to believe my own subjective experience over your subjective opinion.

Also it is no longer called downvoting it is called flagging now and it was changed for a reason i.e. to make it clear that it is not a downvote used to show your displeasure in a post.

If you have a problem with that take it up with @dantheman and the rest of the team. Despite what you say about voting having no rules it most definitely does and they are the ones that set them.

Encouraging flagging for posts that people think have earned "too much" just makes it too easy for envy to come into the situation. Do I need to repeat the crab story from the whitepaper?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Also it is no longer called downvoting it is called flagging now and it was changed for a reason i.e. to make it clear that it is not a downvote used to show your displeasure in a post.

its still called downvoting on the blockchain, which is what ill continue to call it. Changing the interface in an attempt to change peoples voting behavior (which is what was done) is dishonest. Its like fixing the ballot so people don't vote for someone you don't like.

Just the number of downvotes on some of the worst posts (which are also some of the highest paid) shows that the consensus you imagine is just that, a consensus you imagine. Let me guess, all these people downvoting don't count, because they're envious jealous crabs who are just looking to destroy the system.

You seem to think its envy and the crab in the bucket. I disagree. I think its a lot of people who don't want to see insipid ,low quality material get paid tens of thousands of dollars while 99 % of posts get nothing or near nothing. I can't say as I see that as an unreasonable position. An ad-hominem attack against the people taking it doesn't change that. I may have crabs, but i am not a crab. Just someone who doesnt want to see steem worth 75 cents by labor day.

I often vote via the CLI or API in which case I'm specifying my vote using a number between -100 and 100. There is no label or name attached to any of these values; the only meaning is the effect it has on the mathematical formulas that make up the protocol.

In other words, I agree with @sigmajin

it is only logical to remove upvote on one's post especially concerning rewards, or in this case considered as "kickback". only whales and the lesser gods will be able to benefit from this option.

"I believe it is up to the market to decide"

There is no market if posts can't be down voted, or 'shorted'... and users who down vote posts that the market decides are overvalued should be compensated for it.

I just feel better that @berniesanders is questioning the value of @dan's post AND I see even @dan has 6 flags on his own post. This shows me that I was not specifically being targetted and that anyone could be a potential target if certain people find their post is not of value. Dan's post also allows me to better understand what all is involved in the process. I upvoted this post because I found the content valuable and the corresponding conversations just as valuable. I even upvoted @berniesander's comment. :)

People flag sometimes because they are jealous a post is making a lot of money.

You were never specifically targeted, although I understand how a relative newcomer might not appreciate the entire context of Steemit voting and flagging and could be offended. This is something we should try to be more aware of in the future.

If anyone has a personal problem with someone, the chat room should allow them to hash it out. With this big a community, we are going to have different beliefs and each come from different backgrounds and upbringings. To some people $5 is a lot and to some they could light a cigar with that and barely notice.

But I do think that if you are going to flag/downvote you should give a reason why. I feel that people who downvote with no reason are hurting the platform just as much because they are not providing any context as to why they did what they did.

I respect @berniesanders for letting you know why he downvoted the post he did. As a newer user could he have given you a little slack? Absolutely, but he saw what was repetitive content as decided to put an end to that trend. I doubt you had any idea what was covered before, but it also made you learn quickly about making creative content and moving on.

That you two don't hold animosity towards one another is a great thing that many people aren't mature enough to do. If it were facebook and someone were to "dislike" your status update, you probably wouldn't go through all their updates and dislike them all (if that were a thing) yet that does happen here, because money is a big motivator for many.

We as a community are doing a pretty good job being considerate to others regardless of their opinions. I wouldn't have believed you if you would have told me there was a place without any real presence of trolls where people could self police and money would be rewarded based on content, I would have laughed. It just didn't seem possible. So I think it is on each of us to do our part and try to keep steemit on pace to get larger and more successful.

@dantheman and @berniesanders may not agree on the value this post contributes, but I like that they are willing to talk about it instead of getting into some sort of "whale war" where cliques form and people vote because they feel they should and not because they actually believe in what they are doing.

Hey Jeff, you are no fucking slouch. You show up on steemit and only a matter of days you give it the hypeshit treatment. I am glad you are here and actually delving into the intricacies. You are one of the top assets here and glad to see you take it with humility. BTW I am your friend Cory Barnes on FB.

  ·  8 years ago Reveal Comment

No, it doesn't deserve to be flagged just you didn't like it or think it's making too much money.

I'm doing a happy dance. :)

Loading...
  ·  8 years ago (edited)

My interpretation of the events last week were.. there was a 'scammer' who decided to come up with a post. It just so happened that was one of the posts you decided to share the wealth in the comments section @berniesanders.

Then @dantheman downvoted all your comments so the scammer wouldnt receive a payout.

In retaliation you downvoted @dollarvigilante as @dantheman was obviously a fan.

If my interpretation is right then you were both wrong, there are no 'evil whales'. Just misunderstandings. I'm probably wrong in my interpretation, I dont know the whole story. Please correct me if im wrong.

As for this post, It's one of the founders releasing some information. Maybe it is worth that much? I don't know, I've found alot of value in @dantheman s posts.

My downvote on that post had absolutely nothing to do with Dan or his voting. As I said in the comment that content has been posted a million times here on Steemit and IMO didn't deserve the payout it was set to receive, so I downvoted. Simple as that, nothing personal, just didn't think it was worth the reward or benefitting Steemit. @dollarvigilante is a great writer, just trying to hold him to some standards if he's going to receive such significant payouts.

Ok that's fair. Like I said I didn't know the whole story and was just speculating. I can see why you made your decision.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

IMO, this really really has not been given enough attention. @berniesanders explained the downvote. To me, at least the explanation was pretty compelling.

The post that got downvotes was positively absurd. It was a guy who made all his money on steemit because of his well known name and because a group of whales decided to vote for him posting about how to write a successful post on steemit.

Now thats fine that hes well known. But you can't then go on to write a post about the "secrets to making a lot of money on steem" when your "secret" is that he youre famous. And to make matters worse, his "secret" was something that has been done to death as a post on steemit. Vauge, common sense posting guidelines that have been posted 100 times. ANd when they were posted before by authors on curation lists, they should have been downvoted all those times too.

ANd also, @berniesanders wasn't nearly strong enough to remove all payment himself. there were plenty of people who agreed that it was a shitty post.

i only have 4 postes in total .. just wondering what drove you to flag my testing post which has almost no payout
https://steemit.com/top-news/@bue/news-top

  ·  8 years ago (edited)Reveal Comment

Maybe you should open your eyes and actually look and see WHO it was that provided the significant rewards to the post. It was not the many voters, it was Dan and one of his coworkers. So now, who is gaming the system? Thanks again for your clueless response.

Edit: Thanks for the vote, I'll downvote yours as well for making such an ignorant comment.
Edit: Well, that took you down to a 6 rating, maybe that's a little harsh. Too bad, some of your posts are actually decent.

I don't believe you should downvote / flag the post @berniesanders . I feel that flagging is for spamming and plagiarism. Not that you don't feel it is worth that much. I feel that people should either upvote or not vote and only flag if it is spam / plagiarism. The biggest problem with Steemit right now is that the Whales aren't actually voting and engaging on a large scale like us minnows who are pushing hard. If you look on CatchAWhale.com the entire first page of whales have voting power of usually 99% or 100%. I'm constantly engaging and voting and my voting power is usually between 60% and 80%. I'm not saying the curation reward should be increased but I have a feeling the whales are too busy or uninterested in spending the time engaging with the community like those who are new to the platform. This will cause the attrition level of good new content creators to be pretty extreme. I see it on YouTube all the time. People busting ass and then they quit because they can't be profitable. I'm not trying to sound like a Baby Back McBitch but if the whales don't vote and engage with the content creators then we are looking at a very long period of blogging for pocket change. It could cause Steemit to not reach escape velocity to get to Mars like I thought we were on all on board with.

@brianphobos You sir, have just hit the nail on the proverbial Bonce!
followed

@brianphobos Like I said before here...
https://steemit.com/steemit/@williambanks/response-to-dantheman-notice-to-bot-spammers
There really are two classes of users, owners and larpers. But there is also a third class and that class are "mods" or moderators. We call them whales here, but let's call them what they are "mods".

As moderators, they have a duty of care to make sure that a post doesn't get too much money if it isn't representative of the wishes of the community as a whole. There is nothing wrong with a whale who downvotes a post for too much money when there is only so much to go around. As long as they state the reason. "I think this post is seriously overvalued".

This power really should be reserved for instances where a post is more than $1,000 though.

I would put money that all of these 'mods' are from the same demographic, I would also assume that none of us (users) have officially given these people our blessings to make decisions on our behalf. I understand that the site is centralised, but if there are 'mods' which I agree with you there are, then where can I vote to say that I don't want any posts downvoted because a guy who I've never met, who's social/political/family/financial views I may not agree with feels that it has earned too much money. Who is he/she to make decisions on my/our behalf? An early adopter? SO WHAT! What we have here my friend is awful governance. A lot of users here are from the blockchain/Bitcoin community/mindset, Where freedom of choice is abundant, and external control is limited. I can pretty much guarantee that when a platform arrives that stops 'other' people being able to cancel the money you've earned arrives, then we'll all jump ship, and Steem will sink just as quickly as it's risen.

@cryptosi I'm not defending it bu I am explaining it. The system here is one where if you don't like things, you vote with your wallet.
Same advice I gave to @thedollarvigilante is the same advice i give you now.
Fix it by buying steem. It's not that these guys are early adopters, it's that they are investors and using their say to drive things the way they want it to go.
If you had more steem than them, you could drive it the way you wanted to.

Also we're all from the same demographic :) Steem has an appeal for people who shun social media in general but can be bribed to join a social media network. That's not a huge amount of diversity. But there will always be a diversity of opinion.

So instead of "Free Market" voting, instead it is a Governing Board that determines and can control the value of all the posts? Not exactly how it was marketed.

@whatsup It's a matter of evolutionary phases. At this early stage, it was felt that the need for upfront funding in exchange for an immediate amount of control and prestige was a pretty good deal. Right now many of the whales are powering down. As they do this it drives the price of steem down and allows you to gain more power simply by purchasing steem from the open market, or buying and holding SBD until the price drops low enough that you can convert to steem and power it up.

It's an inherently unfair & unbalanced system (as recently described by dan), that will eventually evolve towards a system which is more fair and more balanced.

I disagree. Even though I upvoted for this post, downvoting should be a means of expressing disapproval not only to the post content but also to the post earnings.

I have to disagree with you @minitek Personally on YouTube i will very rarely give someone a thumbs down. If someone tricked me with click bait or something like that I will downvote them. If someone drop kicks a new born infant in their video I will flag them. I wouldn't just thumbs down them because I don't like their view point. I might leave a comment saying I disagree with them. I just think the thumbs down or downvote breeds trolls and haters. Then everyone is in a war down voting each other to get back at each other.

Ok, now I'm flagged by the trucker who is selling his accounts. His brakes went out and he is going down a mountain! There is no stopping him!

@brianphobos ask for it to be removed in chat. It is a False Flag!

I feel that flagging is for spamming and plagiarism. Not that you don't feel it is worth that much.

but why should the way someone else uses their vote be controlled by your "feelings".

Please downvote this. There are far better posts that won't get a fraction of the $2700 it's currently set to receive. Plus, he's been churning out these voting posts non-stop and they're kind of pointless.

More to come in a future post.

I had the same impression. I began reading dan's post only to be let down at the very end that he didn't propose a code change or chainfork to detail with the problem and then ask people what they thought of the proposed change.

I am especially happy that we are having discussions like this though. I voted you up, because I instantly got that "pointless" feeling... if we're not going to plan a fix.

BTW.. I really did think upvoting my own content was something I earned the right to do, and should do..

Apparently I'm learning that its wrong, eventhough the system allows it, and rather than fix it, we're going to have a never ending saga of posts to continue... That does seem pointless.

Yeah, it deserves to be downvoted, if you agree with the idea that people should be worried about counteracting other people's votes (or bots), instead of just enjoying curating content or coming up with ideas on how to make bots that are good for everyone.

Then you have your comment ... is it really worth over $11? I dunno. Maybe relative to the OP. But in general, probably not.

I think limitations such as voting power and having to worry about what other people are voting up kinda ruins things.

What if votes and pending payouts were hidden, encrypted, and only revealed at payout time? The game would change completely. Remove the voting power penalties, or at least reduce the penalty a lot, to allow people to vote freely, up or flag down.

Bots would gain nothing by autovoting except in cases where they autovote based on past earnings (i.e. have an author's list). Those author lists, across bots, will eventually be virtually identical and make the pie seem kinda small, until each bot is making so little it's eventually not worth it, so the number of bots doing certain kinds of autovoting will stabilize and their will be far less possible exploits.

What are the negatives of hiding the votes and pending payout amounts until after payout time?

what if votes and pending payouts were hidden, encrypted, and only revealed at payout time?

There is a large growing group of us that believe payout time is the only time a post should reveal its value, even if it is only on the GUI. But encrypting it on the chain could work too!

If all posts are seen as equal in value (no value shown), they are more likely to receive proper curation.

While a post is going viral with popularity, I don't want to see if it is at $1.21 or $1,532 because I know a lot of less knowledgable curators are going to chase the $1,532 post, and ignore the $1.21 one simply by glancing at the current $ value as a sole indicator.

Allow the user to show the value or not. Should be an option.

So, here is the way I look at it. Dan is a celebrity in this community. Whether or not anyone believes his thoughts are better or worse than others, in this particular attention economy, the value derived from his post is tied to the attention he commands. And in this instance, it commanded over $2,500. Not worth a downvote, IMO, but maybe a ¯\ (ツ)/¯.

While it's hard for me to put an exact dollar value on this, I absolutely see the value it's adding with it's content and discussion (as well as with the previous posts on this topic.)

It's an important topic for the community to be chiming in on (even though it's hard to tell those who merely upvoted without reading, those who read it, and those contributing to the conversation.) Personally I don't have a problem seeing something like this have a high dollar value attached, so long as the information and discussion are adding value to the community (which I believe it does.)

On other sites, I never would have provided feedback, because I just didn't care. It was their platform with things being decided behind closed doors. I feel differently on steemit, feeling a part of a community, and even if my feedback isn't the final answer, I'm happy seeing the motivation of myself and others to contribute.

Money is nice, but it alone doesn't solve the underlying community issues and concerns, which I feel this post highlights very well.

Regardless, this is a great question to have posed @berniesanders!

@sykochica Nice to see you hear giving a level headed contribution to the discussion. So many replies it's hard to follow the conversation.

I agree. This post has value. It is worth talking about and therefore I voted it up. I haven't downvoted a lot because I havent seen a lot that deserves a down vote. I am sure I wll come across something. I have only been here a few days. I am a newbie on here and I don't know who @dantheman is. This post looked interesting and I am trying to gain insight. If I didn't think it provided any, I would have moved on.

@berniesanders

I commented but never upvoted this post, but I didn't downvote it either and here's why :

I have a feeling a lot of people upvoted simply because the post was made by @dantheman and has absolutely nothing to do with its content. Upvoting a post with high curation rewards because you'll get paid is an unfortunate side effect of the current reward system in place. Not to mention high value posts get thrown almost immediately to the top of the trending page and draw that much more of a crowd who also, upvote it as well.

Because the trending page is sorted in descending order of the total vote count, most people want a piece of the curation rewards which in turn makes a high value post that much more of a target for curation bounty hunters. Those voters then up the vote count and compound the problem even further by pushing the post that much higher up the trending page. This type of mob mentality when voting draws even more attention to a post regardless of content because people see all the votes, the SBD value, and they want in on the action like everyone else who voted before them.

This problem is compounded even further when you take into account the fear some people have of downvoting users with massive amounts of SP. An upvote means you'll not only get paid for curation but you'll also skirt the risk of upsetting a high SP member of Steemit. The downside however, is both money and fear are powerful motivators. I'm assuming that these motivations tend to be a major factor in determining how and when people vote, regardless of the content in question.

The system is very much a double edged sword that causes people (whether they're conscious of it or not) to run a risk/reward assessment before acting on a post, regardless of its content. Especially when the stakes are very high, and this post right here is a perfect example.

To answer your whole question, yes I did read the whole post and opted not to vote on it. I simply left a comment and moved on. I wanted to see what @dantheman had to say, but have little to no interest in being part of the curation reward hunters. That type of voting is simply bad for the future of the platform....

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

PS : The inability to remove one's own upvotes from one's own posts is currently being worked on and hopefully will be pushed with the next Hardfork. I simply have not had the time to get to it yet and the deadline is fast approaching... I only mentioned this because I keep accidentally upvoting my own posts and can't undo it because of a known bug that's being patched very soon.

I have been making this point for a few days now. Users are trying to preemptively vote on content that they think will trend, based on previous trending topics and authors, regardless of the content and quality. And who drives this kind of voting on these posts? The whales.

They're incentivizing herd mentality and reward seeking - not finding and rewarding actual valuable content and contributors. (And I fully understand subjective value, but we're talking about reward-based behavior without any associated risk. Value is pretty much a non-factor here - only finding the trendy categories and authors that the whales are likely to upvote is what seems to influence voting right now.)

And there doesn't appear to be a large volume of people wanting to change this...because they're still hoping for their own big pay days to begin - or to continue.

That type of voting is simply bad for the future of the platform....

Totally agree!

Honestly, when I joined, I didn't read the white paper or even any color paper..and I made some mistakes and didn't fully get it...was never a Reddit user so the idea of voting or flagging was fairly new to me.

So I don't want to argue how much a post deserves, this list for me, was extremely helpful and valuable. Well put together, easy for me to quickly grasp. So yeah, the whole "is that really worth that much money" thing people get into I find distasteful. Either you come to create good shit and begin sharing what you do with others and have fun doing it, or, well, what other reason would there be that's truly a sustainable reason for anyone to stick around?

I think people who do their big "I'm leaving" post, are mostly fed up with their own conceptions they created surrounding this site. Steemit is a tool, the same way that any social media site is a tool. IMO it's a tool where I can share my art and expand my audience, and where I can bring my current audience to also help build the social movement here. It's about having fun doing stuff you love and sharing that with others, building a following, and being rewarded for it in the process.

So anyway, I digress.

To me, the original post was really an aha moment and I'm grateful, well done 🤘

Just my opinions

This is really why we need some "stickied" posts, to have guides there for newcomers, so there is no need for new ones on a daily basis.

But at the same time we should maybe leave the "steemit update posts or discussions" out from Steemit and maybe talk about them on another forum. Now it feels like every small update or discussion about Steemit gets upvoted into oblivion just cause its from "whales", people voting just with profit in mind and following the herd.

Some of this can be taken to a Forum. Not just plug'n it I actually mean some of the discussion doesn't need to get paid. It needs to be discussed!

That's a good idea and a lot of newbies have been asking for some form of sticky posts. I'm sure the team will do this in some way.

I agree. I definitely think some sort of stickied posts would be good. I also think thatt here should be a way to sticky certain posts in categories (may not all) that the dialog can continue on.

Exactly. SteemIt discussions should be handled in chats, e-mails, or even on the Facebook page. I think this would at least free up more rewards for better original content and the authors who create it. So much time on "curating" is spent on these posts and too many rewards are - in my opinion - wasted on it. There are better posts to reward and put this much effort into. And yes, I realize the irony here.

I commented on it. And chose not to vote on it because I assumed it would take a larger-than-deserved piece of today's pie even without my penny. But since we don't have a downvote, and nothing in the post is flag-worthy, I feel like our hands are tied. They aren't -- you and some of us minnows could flag the post -- but that will just continue the argument without getting us closer to consensus.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Is any single post ever worth over $2500?

That's why we need a downvote option that is separate from flagging. With the current system, more visibility necessarily means higher payout. We should opt for a system in which more visibility implies a fairer payout.


Edit: Woah, I hadn't realized how controversial your post was until after I replied. It's like people are numb to paying thousands of dollars for a single post cause they don't see coming out of their pockets.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@berniesanders, since whales of a certain SP can now scale the size of their own reward to give somebody, the reason you use - that a post might be making too much money - seems completely irrational.

Here's Why.

Let's say as this post starts creeping up to the payout, it's $ value has reached over 10K. Let's pretend both you and another whale have the power to bring this reward all the way back to $0.00
(Not that you would)
Well the 2 of you decide individually that the post isn't worth 10K but you have different ideas of what it should be worth. This other whale, let's call him berniesanders2, decides that the post is closer in value to 5K. But you disagree. You believe it's worth only $500.

With your new scaling powers you can decide exactly how much reward the post gets. Except another whale could have the exact same overvaluation of his own opinion.

Whichever one of you votes second, is overruling the decision of the first

even though the decision didn't belong to either of you in the first place!

You only get to decide how much you contribute. Everybody collectively gets to decide how much it's worth!

We all hold a stake @berniesanders. Our tiny minnow votes count too.

I don't think it matters what I think. It wasn't my vote to give. They can give however, much they believe they should. My opinion, but when someone starts subjectively deciding who is worthy and who is not, how long until their gaze falls upon me or someone else.

EDIT: I also cannot tell you how to vote your vote @berniesanders. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I do not, but ultimately it is your vote and not mine and I do not advocate forcing you to adhere to my desires.

Generally if I read something to the end, I upvote it. If I dont get to the end then I don't upvote it. I thought this was an interesting post. But it seems to me that the main problem with the Steemit platform is the 'Whales', That's the unfair power, that's what needs to be removed, however that will never be even mentioned because guess what, the people who created the platform DO NOT have the personal integrity to remove themselves from the whale class, because they are making too much money from it. Satoshi never moves Bitcoin. If you want a platform based on merit and not money, then you need to lead the way. Else you wont even be of the correct mindset to see the glaringly obvious problem with your own platform. Steem is a great experiment and I'm loving watching it develop. My suggestion, there needs to be a crowd decided level of power that all accounts trend to over time. And without stunningly successful posts, NO account should bypass this level, purely by virtue of having steem power, so when a post is in the top 5% of posts then you should get a boost to your power that lasts a few days and powers down, similar to how Voting power goes up. Steems successor will implement this, just as Bitcoin's successor will implement governance.

With all due respect to you both, I feel like stepping in between two whales is a great way to get crushed.

My best post on here only made $20, the last thing I need is to be turned into a -6 rep zombie.

I've said it before here that if you want to make steemit more equitable, cap the whales rewards and distribute it downwards.

At a certain point, a whale has to realise that he really doesn't need a lot more cash. At current market prices, I don't think any of you guys have to work again.

However, it seems a bit silly for me to tell someone else what to do with their website and their concept.

My only appeal is to the concept that a more equitable reward system is an investment in the longevity of STEEM and steemit.com, not killing the Golden Goose so to speak.

The problem with any of these discussions however, is that it is extremely hard to remain unbiased when your own livelihood is at stake.

I am loath to recommend or do anything that would lower my payouts, to whales, especially devs to spend time and money changing the system to lower their own payouts is a little unrealistic.

However, given that this is an open-source project, is it not unreasonable to expect that a more democratic clone/alternative is being developed as we speak?

That's my input. Please don't kill the messenger.

Why should this be downvoted? Because @dantheman has the ability to drastically increase the value with his own upvote? If thats the only reason it should be flagged then the issue moves beyond the 'value' of this post and simply becomes 'should whales be able to profit hansomly from upvoting whatever random stuff they feel like posting?' A good question, but has a lot more to do with steemit's architecture rather than this post specifically.

Exactly see my reply to @berniesanders if you can find it! I suggest disabling self upvoting completely. That is a better way of dealing with that problem.

Before the great fight of the whales start, please rescue us Bernie. Wonder what I refer to? Have a look at my latest story. Are you evil or good? We need to know!

The value is also in the platform it's written on

Well I think Dan's opinion is both important an interesting and upvotes will get it to the front page where it easily visible for the entire community. Is it wort 2.5k? I think not. In fact I don't think it's more valuable than a lot of 0.02$ posts that I've seen. However this is currently how the system works. Should you downvote to cancel the reward? That's up to you. Personally I believe in upvoting the right content, and not in downvoting to take someones money away. If Dan himself thinks the post is not work 2.5k he could do something himself about it I guess.

This post provides a lot of interesting thoughs but asks more questions than it gives answers.
Imho, $2,500 is way overrated.
But people will still vote, because of one aspect that @dantheman did mention: the gambling on posts.
If you see a post from a "usual suspect", in the 30min-1hour limit, it is a good "investment" to vote.
Not because the content is good, but because you are sure that others will vote.

For the record, I upvoted this post without reading it this morning.
Now i read it... and I read your comment too. That's the silver lining.

Again imho, "Upvote gambling" is part of the game, but it is for me the real cause of behaviors mentionned above.

@sebastien (just back from France !)

I will add my personal opinion as I didn't really answer your question @berniesanders. Personally I found this post very informative, and well written. I certainly find it more valuable than posts that often make considerably more than this. So if I compare it to other things on the trending page then I'd say yes it is worth it.

@berniesanders yes, it's worth over $2500.
On the other hand, this post doesn't even deserve neither $2000 nor the attention of some whales.
But thanks to Jeff, now everybody can just hire and pay an assassin to kill people (no matter their work background and the big picture to get rid of government). Which bring me to the next question: @dollarvigilante I am going to write an essay about "celeb assassination". Interesting enough?
What will be next , a Steem market for political assassination?
And Bernie, instead of getting on feud with Dan, there are bigger issues to focus on.

There are 400 votes in... is it worth 2.6K$ NO...It does need to be discussed. Also I have to question why ,said person, (please i'm only suggesting, asking a question) knowing this post would trend regardless of his SP? why not give the post enough to trend and let it bee? I can't see the slider of SP so don't know if it is active on steemit yet...
One suggestion to the curation of a "bad" whale after an downvote. Why not after an "also large" fish/fishes down vote say in effect of 50% of post value(pre flagging). Overturn the curation reward proportionally to the lesser voters(minnow) that simply wanted voiced there opinion on said post... or all together, only pay out to users/ account below some SP level? This should ensure we do not see post's with excessive SBD or the biggest fish simply does not get any curation reward.(The slider of SP would be handy). We could also say that this "function" is only in effect on posts above a certain value of Steem( not per say SBD).... What do you think?

Maybe there could be a different "home" feed, instead of trending, with some sort of google page rank algorithm, as @dantheman had previously touched on. This home feed would not display a vote option or the pending money-earned, until you click the link to view the post. This way, important and popular posts could be front and center, without needing to be the top earning post, and without affecting the site's current voting economics. Meanwhile, the trending (monetarily) feed could still be in the pull down, as is.

Just a thought to combat over-voting instead of leaving influential curators in the position to consider planting a flag to restore order, in a sense.

Do I think the post is worth over $2500, no I do not think it is worth that much. Do I agree with the overall message that downvotes are an essential part of keeping fairness at play on steemit, yes I do. I think downvotes should only be applied to posts which are being spammed (either posted more than once, or tagged entirely inappropriately), or are plagiarized content.

I think your question stems from a separate issue which is upvoting based on whale chasing. I do not know if this is an issue which is solvable by downvotes, though I can see the logic behind it.

I have mixed feelings. It's a great article, and presents a way of looking at downvoting that I hadn't considered before, to keep profits on any one piece of work from becoming unreasonable. But $2500 does seem excessive.

I think the main issue is that downvoting has a negative connotation in most people's minds. When I see a flagged piece, my gut reaction is "hmm, is this person trouble? What did they do to break the rules?". Which is totally unfair to the author if the flag was merely used by a whale to keep profits in check. And that particular use case might not be obvious unless the whale leaves a clear comment explaining the reasoning behind it.

I think the easiest solution would be to make it impossible to upvote your own posts and comments. Let other people be the judge of how much value your work brings to the community!

No, it does not worth over $2500 in my (unreputed) opinion. But then again, is there really any post on Steemit that is worth over $2500?
Even if I wanted to, I could not reduce the worth of this article.

I have no idea how much it's worth, but it's better than most other crap on steem.

if there was a downvote button I would not use the flag button.
I don't consider this post spam.
I don't like it.
About the value no comment

Yep.

Flag = prevent abuse
Downvote = communicate your dislike and adjust the payout accordingly

Ever since the flag was introduced in the interface and the reputation was directly impacted by a flag, the concept of a "downvote" no longer has meaning in the Steemit.com interface. I get how the blockchain has different views on this, but we don't yet have an alternative to steemit.com that supports the blockchain view of "downvotes."

Let's all be entirely honest here. Has any post so far on this platform deserved thousands of dollars because hundreds of people have voted for it? That's the real problem here. We're talking about relatively tiny numbers of people reading and "voting" on content.

There are about 60,000 users today - with quite a large chunk of these being inactive and bots. we've seen payouts on posts over $15,000 on many occasions. Does anyone else not find this absurd, especially considering what the content commonly is?

Someone introducing themselves with a personal bio?

Somebody saying something as pointless as "Wow! Steemit is cool! What do you guys think we can do with this platform?"

Another person giving some sort of tech update or suggestions for future SteemIt updates?

What real value is added by these posts? Are they really deserving of thousands of dollars per post? I understand that authors can bring value and can add valuable content, but posting about SteemIt on SteemIt to a small SteemIt audience who then votes based on rewards that they get from SteemIt seems to be something along the lines of jerking stuff in a circle, doesn't it?

I watched a post the other day that simply had some photos of coffee and listed different brewing methods. No real explanations or tips on the different types. Not much writing at all. They seemed to just be generic free-use photos. But, people like coffee, so upvoted it was. It ended up with somewhere around $2000, I believe. For unoriginal photos and unoriginal, uninformative content. What value does that bring to SteemIt? And guess who voted on that one, @berniesanders?

It's not that certain posts or authors are getting absurd payouts - it's that the payouts in general can be so absurdly high, especially with so few users on the platform and no way to control it, other than a whale flagging.

Whales have entirely too much power on both sides and you guys continually upvote your own posts and comments and then upvote each other - often on strictly Steem-related content, like this post by @dantheman. Meanwhile, really great writers and quality content contributors have to resort to vote-begging and bribes just to make a few pennies and get any attention whatsoever. As it stands, this platform is everything that it shouldn't be. But where are the whales who actually want to correct it, instead of simply vote themselves and their own buddies large sums of money while complaining about the others who do so?

Or am I just way off base here and not actually seeing what I continually see?

Damn, who's getting bribed for votes and how do I get in on this action? I kid, I kid...

P.S. - I like coffee.

Coffee is a serious matter. No kidding allowed :D

On a less flippant note, heavy corruption is a type of "economy", too. It is very apparent in certain countries as I have seen while working on projects there.

If bribery works, I would expect it to become a standard aspect of the Steem(it) economy.

What is interesting, is I think this is a large portion of what this thread/conversation is about. Most people are probably upvoting simply because they expect it to pay out a lot, so they are jumping on the bandwagon to get high curation rewards. @dantheman himself seems to indicate that downvoting to reduce the payout is an acceptable thing in the current paradigm.

The real challenge is deciding what value each contribution has to the community. It is obviously subjective, and while some people might argue that this post does deserve $2,500, a lot of other people would disagree. As someone with significantly higher SP, the system is giving your subjective value judgement a lot more weight than say my subjective value judgement.

I think you should decide if you think the payout of a particular post is high/low in your opinion, and upvote/downvote based on that.

The post paid out a lot of money, no doubt, but I wouldn't think of flagging it. I highly value getting regular updates from @dantheman.
Aren't you doing virtually the same thing by upvoting your comment to the tune of $200? Have you forgotten that you are a whale?
Pretty slick sitting on it for a while hoping nobody noticed you upvoted yourself for a nice profit after calling out @dantheman. Just an observation. No judgement here. Apparently you both agree that it's okay to upvote yourself if its allowed. I am fine with that. I am also very interested in the ideas that Dan is presenting here. We do need to be careful however to not destroy all the incentives for being on the platform in the first place.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

If you are going to leave, just do it. Don't throw a hissy fit.

Why did you flag @brianphobos ?

Probably same reason he flagged me, for being anti-flag.

That's not what flags are for lol. You can go in the chat and ask for it to be removed. Just realised it's a FALSE FLAG - the new name for inappropriate flagging. The governments would love that.

not worried about. It didn't ding me hard I don't think though my reputation was improving. Yes, I know that is not what the flags are for. He just had a melt down and the flags started A flyin'

EDIT: Good case example of why I don't like the flags as they are at the moment.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

It is way too early to judge whether the voting system on Steemit is working - we really need 6 months of data. If in 6 months time there are a fair number of whales and an even larger number of dolphins to balance things out, there is no problem at all.

Think of the dolphins as the "middle classes" of the system. All nations with a big middle class are stable. The unstable nations are those with a very powerful 1% and a vast majority minnow class, and very few dolphins that can counteract the 1%.

Therefore the success of Steemit lies in creating as many dolphins in the next 6 months as possible.

If in 6 months time there are a fair number of whales and an even larger number of dolphins to balance things out, there is no problem at all.

I don't see this as possible with the current/projected growth of the platform. The number of new users grows much faster than the current wealth distribution rate, which will arguably only make the problem worse. The big issue right now is unfair visibility. Meanwhile the current "trending page" will always have a limited amount of spots. We need a more dynamical solution that scales with user growth.

If the whales actively took the time to distribute their votes far and wide, then it should be easy to create a large dolphin class that acts like a stabaliser in the system. The problem is some whales are putting short-term gain ahead of long term benefits and only upvoting a select few. Perhaps they think the platform won't last and they need to make as much short-term money as they can. Or perhaps they haven't thought long term at all (a lot of players are NOT strategic when it comes to the long term, but only respond to short-term stimulus).

Still, it could just not be enough. 20 users have 50% of the voting power. Even if they curated full time they might not be able to create enough dolphins.

You have the point, we need to construct that middle class, for example, i will invest in steem powers because n a few days of research i believe that this cryptocurrency an this platform have amazing potential :)

i believe that this cryptocurrency an this platform have amazing potential :)
Amazing potential either way, but as far as exploit-ability, whales will always carry the weight and be able to reward themselves and their friends unfairly. Where do we move FORWARD from here with a solution?

The only problem is that 6 months is a very long time when it comes to startups like Steemit. I agree wholeheartedly that 6 months of data would be ideal to have enough data points to draw a more accurate conclusion.

The paradox in doing so is if some of these things get put off for 6 months the platform could very easily begin to compound the already existing issues we're trying to address. Look at how many complaints have been flying around since the beta reopened and that hasn't even generated a full month's worth of data to look at yet.

Please allow me to speak freely.

When I registered, I knew the whole system is practically still in Alpha and that the devs are still constantly tweaking under the hood, which to my great surprise includes updates to the database itself; so the whole system is still quite fluid, understandably.

But some of the reactionary changes that you hint at, or have already implemented (the rep system, for example) at the behest of a choir of complaining users, objectively give the impression that The System cannot be relied on. Users constantly have to live under the fear that they wake up the next day to find a major change implemented without any forewarning or notable discussion, and so far, at least in the last month, these changes have summarily been to the detriment of the ideas of free and open markets and have instead been restrictive and belittling in nature.

So reading your most recent musings about votes on votes leaves the impression that you don't really trust the users and don't trust your own system and its ability to self-regulate as a liberal economy ought to and find an equilibrium once the big "excitement" has been damped. That the devs are willing to tweak and "repair" the blockchain to death until it is plain simply too complex to allow for freedom and anarchy and has become a bureaucratic, metastable domino monster structure of "Code Law" nobody really understands anymore or can rely on.

It sends a message of cowardice, of fear of loss of control. Have some cojones, some trust in your own ideology and allow the system to find itself out, to self-regulate organically and naturally, to slip out of your control, instead of intervening with more code each time a clique great enough make noisy demands for ways to introduce the oh-so-soul-soothing censorship and moderation through the backdoor.

You manage perfectly to ignore the crowd who suggest that the interface is a major pain in the lower back because it still doesn't allow "circles", "tag subscriptions", "favorites", costumizable streem feeds, powerful filters and other simple tools to make curation more enjoyable than wading through tons of the created irrelevance - simple, and seemingly easily built tools one must find off-site in the work of independent devs such as roelandp, jesta, mauricemikkers, blueorgy or xeroc.

So it is becoming sort of "suspicious" that micromanaging the backbone, the blockchain, in favor of regressive, authoritarian and reactionary demands, even spending time thinking and pontificating about it, takes precedence over a more fluid, liberating and empowering user experience which could easily circumvent the problems all the interventionism is trying (and failing) to solve and raise the value of Steemit for simple, average users who are not so foolish to expect to get rich "steeming".

And it is a pity I must add that this is not a rant against you or Steemit or meant to be a personal attack in any way - that I am merely fulfilling my promise not to be blinded to the dangers of Steemit, to remain intellectually honest and scientifically sceptical. I express my enthusiasm for the cause and my hope for the success of the experiment by alerting you to a very dangerous pitfall: overregulation.

It lowers my own perceived value of Steem much more than its dumb market cap, and I cannot imagine I am the only one having a bad feeling about the way the platform seems to be going with this; and I almost feel bad for hoping "Akasha", "Yours", "ethereal" or whatever comes next prove to be more honest, straightforward, reliable, open, participatory and anarchic systems.

It is important to note. This is not truly anarchistic.

It is based upon shares, stakes, in a company.

Those with more stakes can have more power to vote up or down. They can essentially lift you into the limelight, or drop you into the dregs. This also depends a lot on how whichever tool/site (I like to call them "windows") for viewing the blockchain you are viewing. It could be possible to make a "window" that ordered posts in a completely different way.

It is important to note this is not really anarchistic. It is more like we are all investing in a decentralized corporation as stake/share holders, and one of the desired/stated goals of the corporation is anti-censorship. In terms of the blockchain this is true, yet different "windows" into the blockchain could indeed censor information from their view. This is not necessarily a bad thing. People who want absolutely no NSFW feeds could use a "window" designed for them, and those who love NSFW could have a window where it is brazen and unfiltered and perhaps even intentionally highlighted.

So censorship of the blockchain does not exist. It does however exist on a "window" by window basis, and the up vote/down vote with power based upon shares/stakes can in fact act as a form of censorship.

Yet when we think about it there are some forms of censorship most people do endorse. Censoring the plagiarist, spam, and abusive. Some of those terms being completely subjective.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I agree with you 100%, I have repeatedly predicted Steem's success will stand and fall with the interfaces and analytics tools and filters that will be developed and used a gif from the Zion approach scene in "Matrix Revolution" each time:

I'd be much less concerned if the rep system were simply a metric computed by the interface, a short analysis calculated by summing up- and downvotes somehow. But lo and behold, https://steemd.com/@dwinblood says there is a new cell in the database:

Reputation: 6,233,550,417,451

And it did not even seem to require a hardfork, unlike the update to get rid of the liquidity reward bug using.

Other interfaces will not have such luxuries.

I express my enthusiasm for the cause and my hope for the success of the experiment by alerting you to a very dangerous pitfall: overregulation.

How is this proposal "overregulation"? It's addressing a real problem: people (me included) seem to want a clean way to decrease a post's payout and right now, due to having on other way, they abuse the flag tool to achieve the goal. So it's an important functionality improvement which cannot be fixed on the interface level. For me, it has nothing to do with overregulation.

You manage perfectly to ignore the crowd who suggest that the interface is a major pain in the lower back because it still doesn't allow "circles", "tag subscriptions", "favorites", costumizable streem feeds, powerful filters and other simple tools to make curation more enjoyable than wading through tons of the created irrelevance.

What you call the interface is a privately owned website. If you want these tools and Steemit.com fails to deliver them, just go and build them on your own website similar to Steemit.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

It's addressing a real problem: people (me included) seem to want a clean way to decrease a post's payout and right now, due to having on other way, they abuse the flag tool to achieve the goal.

The "Flag" symbol itself is already a symbol of overregulation, a psychological weapon to discourage natural and organic intervention when the payouts are too high. Calling the downvote a "flag" and abuse it as an instrument for castigation is already a sign of fear.

What you call the interface is a privately owned website.

While true, I am referring to it in its function as interface, not in is function as privately or otherwise owned website.

If you want these tools and Steemit.com fails to deliver them, just go and build them on your own website similar to Steemit.

With black jack and hookers, @innuendo, with black jack and hookers.

Yes ... A good name is better than riches...

Image of Photo
the rep system

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Right on. Well said. Adding "features" such as a reputation system is actually adding censorship. I agree that they should be concentrating on creating front-ends to make curation more fun, and profitable to committed users, and encouraging the creation of tools and bots that really help, with really smart AI. Instead of trying to kill bots by ruining the experience for everyone to freely vote and post whatever content they choose and as much as they like, we need to embrace them and make them really useful.

This is 2016. People need to accept that AI is a tool, an extension of ourselves. Restricting the use just because someone, like Wang, is /successful/ is a form of censorship and a limitation of freedom of expression, and to me, a limitation of the freedom of thought, because to me, a bot is an extension of my own mind. It votes with the strategy I program it to vote with. It is me. And no one, under the original Steemit implementation, had the right to limit how and when I vote.

I think it even simpler, tbh. With the proper front-end, you could simply save a blacklist. There would be a market for blacklist, @cheetah would get upvotes to no end for providing curated lists of known spammers, malbots, plagiators, impersonators and trolls, and, depending on severity and heuristics, hide or block their posts automatically so they never take up one second of attention. Problem solved.

Who needs a reputation system if you have such an incentive to behave well?

And no one, under the original Steemit implementation, had the right to limit how and when I vote.

Has your ability to vote been limited in any way?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Yes, because voting power decreases with votes cast, then I am always consciously thinking of whether or not I should vote on something based on my past history of voting. Think about that for a second. I am altering my behavior of trying to reward content and comments I like and think have value (such as your comments), because I thought something else I just read had value too? That's not right. I'm censoring my actions based on my previous actions, and making a decision to vote or not based not on the value offered by the post/comment, but simply based on my prior actions. That sucks.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I don't remember any time when voting wasn't restricted by consumable power. That would lead to horrible vote spamming abuse. In the early releases, vote power recharged by the day (instead of five days currently) and each vote used more of it compared to now.

Another limitation is the algorithm for weighing your vote based on age. What about short posts that take 1 second to read and you like it? You vote it up and it goes to the moon and you get a pittance. You have to apply a strategy to time your vote? That is just wrong.

What we can conclude from this is that “objectively bad” behavior is any behavior that can be automated using unsophisticated software and which yields the individual oversized profits.

By this criterion, witnesses are objectively bad. They make ~1.5k Steem per day doing nothing but running a piece of software. Everything extra they may do as witnesses ends up receiving a lot of extra money in the form of upvotes when they post about it. It's therefore untrue that 1.5k include additional work done for the community, and a good half of witnesses don't do anything extra and don't even bother giving status updates to @clains. Upvoting is the one and only true mechanism to incentivize community work, and it works great. The large witness payout is entirely unjustified and could be reduced manyfold without losing any witness or risking a degradation of server quality. A good dedicated server costs $100 per month. 1500 Steems per day amount to $67500 per month at today's rate. This is the kind of money a quant trader makes per month on Wallstreet, and they work 10h+ per day from morning-preopen at 7~8am writing bots and making advanced statistical models, and risking their career when there is a fuck-up. This is also 6x the monthly salary of an average experienced developer in the US. Yes, you read well: a single witness is paid as much as 6 experienced US developers or 10 junior developers or 20~40 developers in developping markets, and he isn't even working for that: just running a software provided by Steemit, checking hardfork announcements, and upgrading when there is a hardfork.

Witnesses are the most parasitic and objectively bad (following this post's usefulness based definition) actors in the whole system. This is the most ludicrously overpaid and low requirement position I have ever seen in any organization in my entire life. Yet nothing is done about it. The only proposal to allow witnesses to volunteer to reduce their pay was pushed back in a "meeting" (that probably involved some obviously self-interested witnesses as well).

Given the ridiculous and totally unjustified payout, it is ludicrous to support downvoting posts that make too much money. The best paid blogger doesn't even get as much as any witness, in spite of the fact that blogging is actual work where as being a witness is an almost entirely passive job that consists essentially in running a piece of software and upgrading steemd when there is a hardfork (everyone else also upgrades steemd anyway).

Both the witness payout and up/down voting need to be fixed. I've written a fix proposal for the up/down voting here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@rampant/how-to-fix-downvoting-a-set-of-proposals-for-a-solution

I hadn't even considered that really.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Given the ridiculous and totally unjustified payout, it is ludicrous to support downvoting posts that make too much money.

I don't find it ridiculous at all. Curation is about finding the right price for a post. Some people might think a post is undervalued (so they upvote) and other might find it overvalued (so they reduce the payout by counteracting the upvotes, as @dan proposes). And this has nothing to do with jealousy or any other emotions, it's just a process of properly allocating our limited funds.

I agree with you that witnesses are probably overpaid. It's certainly not true that they just "do nothing but run a piece of software", but still these payments seem to be excessive at this stage. What I fail to understand is this logic: if we have a problem in area A, then should allow a similar problem to exist in area B. I'd think we should just fix the problem both in area A and B.

What's ludicrous is not the concept of downvoting a post that gets "too much" but the fact that @dan is calling it "objectively bad" to receive more blogging payout than deserved when at the same time he caved in on his one and only feeble attempt at reducing ridiculously overprices witness salaries. The argument in the git ticket is laughable: the ticket was closed because there was a push back from witnesses (of course!) and it was decided that allowing witnesses to voluntarily reduce their salary was going to create competition and push the salaries downward which would reduce "quality" of witnesses (like if there was any need of "quality" to run a binary on a $100/month dedicated server and upgrade it once in a while..). Witness salaries are as bad for the system as the totally broken liquidity reward once was. This needs to be changed, and asking witnesses' opinion is a bad idea because obviously they will not approve something that affects their bottom line. All witnesses made it to their position because @dan, @dantheman, @ned and @steemit voted them in. If they are not happy with a salary cut away from their 60k+ per month wallstreet-like salaries, it would just take a change of vote by @dan and co. for them to be replaced by anyone among the hundreds of quality people waiting in line for a witness position. The only reason nothing is being done is because many of current witnesses are old Bitshares VIPs who have a direct connection to Dan and feel entitled to receive a special treatment, and apparently Dan doesn't have the heart to remove them that. It's so much easier to downvote bloggers who get "too much" rather than reallocate some of that witness orgy to give more to the content producers.

The funds for witnesses are separate from funds for posts & curation. So even if we reduced rewards for witnesses those funds could not be easily allocated elsewhere. We have two problems and both of them need to be fixed. Let's fix curation first (as it affects lots of users) and then turn attention to witnesses.

I agree with a lot what you say about witnesses. But consider this: the purpose was to create a situation where these guys have a lot to lose when they misbehave. If their salaries where closely related to their costs, it would be easy to bribe them.

The funds for witnesses are separate from funds for posts & curation. So even if we reduced rewards for witnesses those funds could not be easily allocated elsewhere.

We are doing hardforks every week. It doesn't take much coding to change the hardcoded proportion of relative witness payout and content creation incentive fund. And even without reallocating explicitely the funds, the simple fact of reducing witness salary will reduce Steem Power inflation and give everyone else proportionally more stake in the system

If their salaries where closely related to their costs, it would be easy to bribe them.

Looking at how much skin in the game a witness has can be a criterion for voters to consider, but that doesn't mean witnesses need to be showered with cash just to make sure they have skin in the game. The mere fact someone can get enough clout to become a witness implies in a large majority of cases that she is either a whale, an Bitshares VIP, or a popular content creators who will have already accrued quite a bit of skin in the game. Beside many witnesses are powering down from an already huge stash of SP so that pretty much everything they earn as witness is just liquidated right away.

Witnesses are right now literally controlled by Steemit. They will obey slavishly to anything Steemit ask them to do because if they don't and they lose the support of Steemit, there goes their beautiful witness position and its generous pay.

"This type of behavior is when a whale creates a bot that simply up votes everything from reputable users regardless of quality. This kind of behavior can be countered by other whales only by pushing the author rewards toward 0."

Unfortunately we already know that some whales are doing this and their is no counterbalance with other whales downvoting such posts - it only happens very occasionally. Most of these posts are of decent quality but even if they were not I'm not sure most whales would flag them. It does seem to be improving though because we have seen less auto upvotes for plagiarising material but as long as whales use upvoting bots the risk of low quality material rising to the top remains.

"Voters that vote poorly will kill the platform. Voters who vote well will help the platform grow."

I agree with this which is why I think using voting bots in general should be a no-no. If the whales don't have time they could delegate their voting (if it is added to Steemit) and until then there will be greater voting power for everyone else when they don't vote. Nobody should get an automatic whale up-vote.

I think the negative voting aspect could work but as you say people will not like that. It would also be interesting to know how many minnows would be required to negate a single whale up-vote. I suspect it would be so many as to make it pointless.

I feel like there should be no downvote on this platform and that the flag should only be used in situations where people are copying and pasting content from outside sources. The fact of the matter is the Whales aren't hardly voting. If you look on CatchAWhale.com the entire first page of whales have voting power of usually 99% or 100%. I'm constantly engaging and voting and my voting power is usually between 60% and 80%. I'm not saying the curation reward should be increased but I have a feeling the whales are too busy or uninterested in spending the time engaging with the community like those who are new to the platform. This will cause the attrition level of good new content creators to be pretty extreme. I see it on YouTube all the time. People busting ass and then they quit because they can't be profitable. I'm not trying to sound like a Baby Back McBitch but if the whales don't vote and engage with the content creators then we are looking at a very long period of blogging for pocket change. It could cause Steemit to not reach escape velocity to get to Mars like I thought we were on all on board with.

Unfortunately we already know that some whales are doing this and their is no counterbalance with other whales downvoting such posts - it only happens very occasionally.

That's why we need incentivized downvotes, otherwise that imbalance in voting pressure will always cause issues. Here's a possible implementation based on a concept similar to prediction markets.

I'm new to Steemit and was surprised to find that voting bots were allowed. If the idea is to promote quality content through community voting, then all voting should be by the people in the community. If automated voting is allowed in order to make money for an individual, that threatens the integrity of the system and the community.

It isn't that they are allowed, it is that they cannot be prevented.

It can't be prevented but the community can make it clear that it is considered bad behaviour. That can bring considerable pressure on people and help to create a change in attitude.

@thecryptofiend Not to mention many of us have been flagging most of the more annoying bots so much they've been cast off deep into the depths of the block chain. Due to their negative Rep, many of the more unpopular bots have never been seen again since the new rep system went into effect.

What kind of "considerable pressure" would make @wang decide to stop making ~$4.5k USD/week from his upvoting bot?

That has happened. There have been many debates about that.

In a prior life I worked in technology. I'm not sure how a bot could not be detected and removed. But more to your point, if the community could downvote voting bots that would help to equalize the voting and make things more fair. The only thing you'd need, aside from the mechanism, is the ability for the community to aware of this type of bot voting and take action.

I think that is a very difficult cop-out to make to just say
"I hope ethical behavior prevails"
this is the internet and placing a dollar value next to a post influences greed.


More on topic of a solution, should users be able to upvote their own posts? Should there be a master thread for unethical behavior? Or if we're embracing botting, should there be a whalebot to show off large unethical profit margins?

What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter? When you down vote a voter you nullify their voting power with your own voting power. It is the moral equivalent of casting equal and opposite votes on every post without offending the posters.

This will work great for over-payment flag. So flagging the vote rather than the author is a good idea.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Instead of asking whether the author did a bad job, we can ask ourselves whether the voters did a bad job.

And who will judge the voters of the "bad" voters?
The voters of the bad voters of the bad voters?

If we have a fair system(?). Theoretical the end result of the voters vote should be fair(?) No?

Maybe make it more democratic/fair?.... We should not take into account only SP but the voters reputation also !

It makes more sense when for example 2 whales have the same SP (Steem Power) that the voting weight of the more reputable whale have more impact compared with the less reputable whale! Think about it!

Give at least 30% weight to REPUTATION! (debatable)

70% impact because of SP
30% impact because of REPUTATION


What do you think?

I think it's too natural for a user with a 65 reputation to be for such a proposal

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Do you want an account of a reputation of (-4) to have the same or more impact than an account with a reputation of (42) for example? ;)

Well that would make both solutions quite similar wouldn't it?

One would reward those who vote fairly, the other one would reward those who make content/comments that are well received on the site. Since good commenters aren't necessarily good voters, the former system seems more suitable.

Interesting concept, we will see what happens.

It still ends up as a popularity contest. Who will be the masters, who the slaves?

My biggest pet peeve is that people upvote without reading.
That's something that is akin to setting the whole steemit idea on fire. Don't upvote just because "dantheman" upvoted, READ THE FRICKING POST!
Don't upvote because YOU THINK it's gonna be popular, READ THE FRICKING POST and make your own opinion.
That's how you make steemit work...
/rand over\

/rand over\

;)

:)))))

maybe it would be a good idea to only make the upvote available inside the post, not on a list view of posts

And maybe even a time delay to ensure you don't just open and vote. Just like 15 seconds or so. This would only be annoying to those who don't read the content.

It really doesn't matter, most early votes are done by bots.

The main issue with this request, sadly, is that most people are just lazy. They want to dump out the box of cereal and get the prize as opposed to arriving to it after going through the process of eating several bowls of it.

...hey! don't kill my faith in people and steemit. we will not be like the rest, we are not lazy :D

You and me both buddy, you and me both.

Hey, I eat the cereal...

I think the upvote button outside the post should be removed as it just encourages people to vote based on a title or it's payout value. Removing it wouldn't stop people from jumping down the page and doing it, but at least it would make it more of a nuisance to people gaming the system that way.

this can be done easily, also hiding the post value at the time could be a cool idea for an hour or so, although people voting because they see a whale upvoted won't be stopped by that :)

I really like this idea. It would make people actually curate for quality.

Organic voters that have enough SP who upvote before they read the post is a small, negligible minority. My bot doesn't read any post, yet it correctly predicted 6 of the 8 top trending posts yesterday (similar most other days).

Let me know when actually reading content becomes as profitable. The problem isn't in the culture, it's in the voting system.

fair point. i disagree on your view though, a greedy approach is cultural but of course, can't be helped. Your bot did well and you see it as an argument that "reading is not profitable" I see it as a sign that lack of diversity and not enough whales upvotes are chocking steemit\s potential growth...the sooner we see more posts and different authors making trending the better.
That being said, I liked your post and upvoted.
Thank you for your comments!

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

i disagree on your view though, a greedy approach is cultural but of course, can't be helped.

Why do you say you disagree if you say it can't be helped? ;)

Even if it were possible, wouldn't changing the "greedy" approach also go against the very essence of Steemit (getting paid for content creation/curation)?

Your bot did well and you see it as an argument that "reading is not profitable" I see it as a sign that lack of diversity and not enough whales upvotes are chocking steemit\s potential growth...the sooner we see more posts and different authors making trending the better.

Well yes! I hope, for the sake of this platform, that this bot issue will get better, otherwise there's just no point in manually curating/reading content. I think the diversity is there, tit's just not on those vote bots' authors list. There's really no reason for the problem to disappear. From an economic perspective, voting for someone who isn't on those lists is almost always a bad decision.

This means that the relative rate at which authors are added to those bot lists is necessarily going to be less than user growth/content creation. So the problem may appear like it's getting better, while actually getting worse. Scary thought!

interesting insight, man. I wouldn't have thought of that but I see the point! Looking forward to reading your stuff, you have quirky and original way of thinking.

I see it as a sign that lack of diversity and not enough whales upvotes are chocking steemit\s potential growth

I 'agreed' with you 2 (closing on 3) months ago, so I cannot see why not do it again.
Solution to the Curation Rewards

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I agree, but we are not living in a perfect world.
A Steemit AI code should fix this in the future.

what does this even mean? that people act out of greed against their self-interest but thinking they are actually acting in their interest? yeah. not perfect.

Holy cow, that statement is like a conundrum wrapped in a state of confusion. I'm still wrapping my head around it! :D

i triple checked: legit sentence!

Well! It is correct that you do not say so! But there is one - but? Under the terms of payment the first voted has bigger percent from profit. It's put in a system. If as you speak at first to read and then to vote. My voice will be 135 for example when I will read it, I will make the comment and what turns out on my statistics? At the end of payment, my vote receives that? In what there can be a reason?

actually voting at 20-30 minutes is "optim" but i'm not talking about that here. I'm talking about voting for the right reasons mostly.

20-30 minutes is "optim"

I really don't think that's true. Probably closer to 10 mins on any popular author.

I agree with you. It is not correct to vote without analysis. The article has to it is pleasant. But considering that we now on the new use upvote. Earlier they had no weight.

I get it, you said "rand over" at the end to see if anyone read to the end!! ;0)

I wish, but it was just typo :D

"We have the potential to completely change the game by changing the question we ask. " This is why Steemit is still the best place on the internet. This is definitely not an easy thing to manage. I think downvoting still needs to exist because of abuse, spam and plagairism. Would negative voting that nullified other votes result in full-scale war? Is war going on even now anyway?

Yes. I see the need to police abuse, spam, and plagiarism. I personally can find ZERO benefit to a down vote beyond that. If I post something all I really care about is that there are some people that enjoyed it. I could care less how many people don't like it. I never went out of my way to be popular, I just did my thing and if people liked me we hung out together, talked, and did our things.

I feel like the negative vote (for reasons other than you and I stated) simply turns it into a war. I honestly don't think someone should be able to cancel out my vote for something I like. They could vote on a different topic and if enough people agreed more it would already show in the system it was more popular, yet it'd have no effect on me and my group.

Negative voting can easily become a thing where the popular kids control the dialog that gets visibility, and everyone else is sent to the basement.

I am very much not a fan of this. Yes, it does make it feel warlike, and it is actually the only HOSTILE action I see on steemit. If a person believes you are attacking them then to someone's perception it is hostile. So if you think you are NOT DECLARING WAR, and it is just a POLICE ACTION. How does that work out when our government does it? We haven't officially declared war as far as I am aware since WW2 in the U.S., yet we sure have participated in many of them. After the fact they get called war, but during them... "It's a peace keeping mission", "It's a police action", "they were offering no value"

That's another thing. I've often hung out with the underdogs. They held value to me. The jocks and their click held no value for me. Yet I wasn't running around with a sign saying "Don't listen to the jocks, they suck, and their brains are in their jockstrap!!!" Which in a sense is how some people may view the down vote.

I am no longer focusing on the monetary aspect, because I've come to terms with that. Yet it is still a huge perception issue we need to address.

In Dan's various political essays


I see value and wisdom in them. I do not believe they ever made a strong case for the need of a down vote. I don't actually look at my vote as nullifying. In fact I don't think it works. The Lesser of Two Evils is a nullifying vote and it just results in more evil.

I'll likely be one of the lonely few that only uses the flag for abuse, plagiarism, and spam. I won't be using it because I disagree with people, I won't be using it because I think it is of no value, I won't be using it because other people are paying it too much.

Unfortunately, many readers seem to think I was talking about Steem and started jumping to all kinds of unfounded conclusions.

Yes, that was hard to watch. Your post on the origins of the right to vote had the potential to spark an enriching discussion on political thought but was unfortunately commandeered. Perhaps once the voting controversy dies down you can reinitiate the discussion.

downvoting because your self-vote

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

You got cajones the size of the moon.....downvoting @dantheman is brazen!

And you upvoted yourself to boot.....man that takes some serious nads!

Removed my upvote from this comment because you removed yours from mine.

Oh the irony! LOL! I was wondering if you would see that....it is back now MEGA BALLS....LOL

That's the beauty of voting. The freedom to act with emotions and do something with your power.

Lol

You're supposed to vote for your own posts unless you're abusing the ability by upvoting all your own comments as well.

It's only an abuse with comments because with actual posts your rewards are diluted after 4. Please refer to my other comment on this thread!

I disagree. Upvoting your own post still has negative effects on the system as a whole.

Loading...

I find the thought process challenging. Sometimes I just upvote when I read something I like, without really looking at the current value. Other times I look at the value first, which sometimes changes my mind. If I read a post that has a lot of coin already, but is a mediocre comment, I won't upvote it. It's not that I feel that person shouldn't get the reward. It's that by abstaining, I'm simply of the opinion that the current pending payout exceeds the value of the content by too much for me to contribute.
This post turned out to be the former - one I appreciated and voted up without looking at the potential payout first. I think @berniesanders' questioning is valid. While I appreciate the article, IMO, the content isn't worth four figures.

It's pretty simple for me. I upvote posts I like; abstain from those I don't; and downvote (rarely) when I think a post is harmful to the community.

Am I to understand that you think upvoting your own post or reply is considered a "bad" thing?

Edit: I am upvoting my own post!

It is your personal decision. Yet consider if every vote you made was worth $100 because you had accumulated sufficient steem power for that to be the case. You could give yourself $100 just by saying "Have a nice day."

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

If I pump 50000$ into the system, would you really begrudge me the 40 cents I give back to myself if I upvote my own post or comment?

I don't begrudge you anything. When I first came to steemit I watched tutorials that recommended voting on your own comments and such to improve visibility and to increase how fast you gained steem power. I thought "Great" and I did that for awhile until I learned we have a voting % which decreases with each vote. So by voting on myself I greatly decreased the chance of me being able to improve steemit for everyone and thus by improving them also create a potential force multiplier for myself. I'd rather have 10 people who were uplifted over time by me and others voting on me, than me wasting my voting power on myself.

That is the only reason I stopped. I was diluting my vote so it was not very valuable over all by voting on myself. I post A LOT so voting on myself is a very bad thing. That is ME personally. What you do should fit you, your situation, and what your goals are.

And in my example I also did not say anything about 40 cents. I said $100. If you got $100 from yourself for that post you just did to me, I'd not begrudge you that... it's your vote. Yet I would think you were kind of a dick. Am I going to think that for 40 cents? It won't even be a glimmer in my mind. Yet what I think should not really matter, it should be what you want, and what your goals are. If your goals are to uplift many others and you post a lot then you might consider how dilution may be impacting your goals.

Oh also... you are not really giving back to yourself. BACK implies it was yours. When I vote I do not see how much steem power I have decreasing, so it is not taking anything from me. Thus, there is nothing to give back.

It's a bad thing that no one can prevent, so it becomes the most rational option.

Unless you're a bot (or manually upvote a lot), in which case you might lose rewards by upvoting your own post.

How would you lose rewards? Even when you submit a blog post, there is a switch to turn on upvote when submitting. I htink it used to be on by default.

By losing rewards I meant losing potential rewards - which is really the same. Just like many others, I'm at a point right now where upvoting any content manually will be a loss since it'll lower my voting power. I just can't be as good as my bot at predicting content that'll become popular, even if I read or create content myself. I wrote a quick post about it yesterday if you're interested.

Loading...

I'd like to point out that with the reputation system, downvotes are not simply the inverse of upvotes. This is because downvotes can harm the reputation of users with less rep than you, but not those with more than you. It's asymmetrical, favoring the strong over the weak.

There's also one that's incentivized and not the other. We need an upvote, downvote and a flag. Upvote/downvote on the blockchain, flagging only steemit based.

Thank you for hearing our concerns and writing such a detailed article explaining your views on them. Are there currently any changes to the steem eco-system planned to address these concerns?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@venuspcs
I checked Github about an hour ago and it is absolutely swamped with reports and requests. There's a serious lack on manpower in the coding side of Steemit right now and people are doing their best to keep up. Given the platform's current rate of growth it's getting harder every day to keep up with all that's going on.

The next Hard Fork should be fully rolled out in less than 24 hours to address some of the more major issues problems (like the POW shortcut that is a huge problem right now) but there's only so much a small group of coders can write when there's so few people actually coding.

If all goes well I'm going to free up some time to help out in the coming days, because some of the fixes would be easy and quick but simply have to wait right now due to a lack of manpower.

This is by far the best explanation of the way the system works (and doesn't work) and how we can fix it. Great work, @dantheman.

"What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter? When you down vote a voter you nullify their voting power with your own voting power. It is the moral equivalent of casting equal and opposite votes on every post without offending the posters."

I LOVE this concept of downvoting voters. In a world without bots, where we are left to human judgement, the system of creating an equal and opposite reaction to a position we disagree with (or that is obviously manipulative) makes a ton of sense.

Whales currently hold the majority of the influence over the platform, which is great, they deserve it. I don't want to be part of the rebel uprising that stereotypes the 1% as all evil and corrupt (we have too much of that in national politics at the moment and it's a mess). At the same time, having a way for enough little guys to outweigh the big guys opinion restores balance and harmony to the platform.

Ideally, voting would only ever be used to curate good content. Unfortunately, it is often used for gamesmanship and self-interest, which is fine if everyone is equal. But, the unscrupulous whale should definitely be held in check by the will of the people.

A small tip: when you quote somebody just use ">" (and a single space) in front of the quoted text.

Hey thanks for the tip.

I have weird feelings on this one! I see the good in being able to "Nullify" another persons vote. But at the same time, I don't know how that would work. I probably haven't thought about it as in depth as you have though. I feel like it would almost create an imbalance of power, Because if one whale can nullify one persons vote, Who is lower than them. That gives that whale less power.

I agree that we need some kind of down vote system in place, Because up voting shouldn't be the only option. Then we can save the Flag button, for spam or other extremely harmful content. The downvote button would give us the opportunity to make decisions on how much the author "deserves" to make.

I agree that we need some kind of down vote system in place, Because up voting shouldn't be the only option. Then we can save the Flag button, for spam or other extremely harmful content. The downvote button would give us the opportunity to make decisions on how much the author "deserves" to make.

Exactly. We should be able to downvote something that we consider to be of positive value if we believe that value to be less than the estimated payout. And we should be rewarded for correctly downvoting content with inflated rewards.

This article makes me wonder to what extent one should upvote on their curation, when and to what entend... Thanks for the thoughts shared with us once again. Namaste :0

I think that whenever we discuss making the user experience more confusing we are going in the wrong direction. A social platform that needs an instruction manual is going to be a social platform with a majority of users ignoring the instruction manual. A vote means you believe this content deserves a slice of today's pie. A downvote WOULD mean that you believe the content deserves less of today's pie than it is getting. A flag is not a downvote and it means that you think there is something wrong with the post (not that you simply disagree). This is what is intuitive to me and I believe to many others.

I wrote a simple #minnowcodeofconduct a month ago, when I was brand new here. It still makes sense to me. Vote for what you like, comment if you have something to add to the conversation, and post when you have value to share. And that is my 0.02SBD.

Perhaps it could be possible to have the concept of the downvote expanded on the blockchain.

Add a set of flags to it, such as: plagiarism, irrelevant, spam, but keep things such as offensive out of it .. and have one of the flags be just "downvote".

If I disagree entirely or mostly with something I read here, sometimes I will downvote, but it seems funny that a) this is called flagging the post (I am not flagging anything, I just disagree with it and b) given enough downvotes by other users, the post will cease to be visible, which should not be the case if people are voting because they think the content is crap - but should arguably be the case if people are downvoting because it's spam, plagiarism, etc.

There's something I'm missing. Since the system allows you to upvote your own post.. and as a curator, I am suppose to be upvoting content that I think is good for the community...

Why shouldn't I upvote my own post? If I took the time to write it with the intentions of other people liking it and upvoting it too.. obviously I thought it was contributing quality otherwise I wouldn't have written it in the first place.

Right now, I am contributing this comment, and I'm going to upvote myself because the system allows me to, and I think this viewpoint is worthy of being seen. In addition, because my comments are rarely upvoted (eventhough I do receive textual praise without a vote), the 3 cents I make, helps to cover my time, effort, and hydro to read, comment, and participate. I see no fault in this.

If there is fault in my way of thinking, please be clear about it, so all of us can now realize it is wrong to upvote yourself and a future code modification will be happening which prohibits a user from voting for their own content if that's the way things should be..

There is a saying "how you can love anybody if you can't love yourself?"
I guess that applies for self upvote too)

Robots whales are up voting a list of auhtors who gets all the rewards all the time. This behavior don't encourage the creation of original content by other members. For example i posted some steem analysis but got almost nothing while ozchart is getting all the rewards by bots.

Excellent point. If they don't have the time to vote properly the shouldn't vote at all.

Those rewards will be distributed more fairly by voters who curate properly. I've tried making this point before but it gets ignored repeatedly. I think one of the whales doing this equated it to having a publishing company with a staff of writers.

The point is if someone wants to do that they can do that but not on Steemit because the whole point of this platform is that content is curated. This kind of behaviour makes a mockery of the whole premise.

You will also sometimes see the kind of writers who are on these lists simply copy someone else's idea for a post and end up getting on the trending page, when the original poster whose article was just as good gets overlooked. I think that is just ridiculous.

It is bad for Steemit and will put off new users. Sadly it will continue because whales are basically a law unto themselves. I take a very dim view of these kind of whales as I see them using Steemit as their own little toy with little concern for the other users.

I have been trying my best to help other users and have put my own personal money into doubling my holdings in the last couple of weeks just because I really believe in this platform. It is sad that some of the people who are supposed to have a huge investment in Steemit don't seem to have as much of an interest in it's long term future as minnows like myself and many others do.

As time goes on I think the community will start to wise up and see that these kind of people are bad actors and are actually harming the long term prospects of the platform.

Don't want to be too negative and on a more positive note it is good to see that @dantheman is actually taking some of these issues into consideration and taking steps to deal with them even though it seems to be taking a long time.

What about some system of curating the curators? With there being a much larger population of minnows and dolphins, why not have a curation list show for each whale that in it self can be followed or upvoted by smaller users.

If the point is curation of good content, why not pass these 'selected quality posts' back to the larger group to see what they see. Personally I would love to be able to reward those curators that ACTUALLY take the time to find 'diamonds in the rough' versus a bot who just trails behind looking for payout.

One other idea to enhance reading of a post (and I'll admit I have no idea how this would be done) could be to have a multiple choice/fill in the blank question about the post content to see if the info was truly absorbed. In the 'Should I stay or should I go' post listed below, the first half a dozen commenters completely missed the point of the post. I don't mean this as a know, but just a multiple choice question would have shown who absorbed the meaning. Maybe have some curation adjustment for those who answer it right. This would reward those who truly read it, without having a punishment aspect.

Should I stay or should I go

That is what already happens. We get the ones the whales voted for in active, trending and popular. The other way we interact with steemit is we search for pearls in the dirt, as it were by looking in the new(created) category.
Now, to me, in both ways of interacting we miss a lot of great posts. There are too many for the whales to curate from new. That's why there are bots curating.

We are back to the book store. We have a list of favorite authors and we buy books from them. The curation system is broken because it comes from the top.

I think there a enough newbies to curate content for the user level accounts. As a user level account myself(10-100 steem), I would like to see a newbie approved new category. Which have been approved by users that have between 1 and 10 steem. Amoung other users I can read the favorites of the newbies(1-10 steem), assuming I have time for that. Those that have over 100 steem power can look at posts voted up by users like me. Continuing in this way, posts will actually be read before they got into trending.

Generally this kind of approach can be done with instead voting power, or reputation. The plaform is new but whales don't scale
Rather than the steem power of users this could be instead the maount of voting power behind the posts or the reputation of the

I like the bookstore analogy as well as your idea of better possibility of 'bottom up' curation to supplement the 'top down' style we currently have.

Maybe even tying a curation reward with a bonus/boost when paired with an upvoted comment on that post.

While I know it's not always practical, I would love to see a snippet of WHY a post was curated such as being a preferred topic, originality, moved by art/music, genuine bearing of the soul, etc. (Sorry, I'm just brainstorming now) But just like having some description of why a post is being flagged is/would be a huge help to reduce negative reactions, I'd assume others wondering why a post was curated (say over theirs) could help with the envy or jealousy of others having success.

@leprechaun That's actually a really good idea. I hope @dantheman sees it.

Curating the curators is a good idea. I suppose the reputation system is supposed to be doing that to a certain degree but it has no effect on whales unless other whales flag them. It would also be interesting to see some statistics on how well whales do on curating content that is upvoted by other users - and not the other way around. This may give an indication of how they compare at curating compared to other users without the influence of attention a whale vote generates through the immediate prominence it gives to a post.

I think back to the old video store where each employee has their stack of weekly picks put out. After a while I would find whose recommendations I valued more (typically because of shared tastes or interests) and more than likely watch (vote) on their picks.

@thecryptofiend I think a lot of us are hoping this situation will remedy itself once the user base grows large enough to handle the massive influx of new posts due to the platform's rapid growth recently.

I've noticed even @cheetah is having difficulties keeping up and @cheetah is one of the best if not the best tool to prevent plagiarism and assist in curation that the platform currently has at its disposal.

Those rewards will be distributed more fairly by voters who curate properly. I've tried making this point before but it gets ignored repeatedly.

So what exactly are you proposing? Sure, bringing awareness to the problem helps, but it won't solve the issues at hand. That might be why it's getting ignored. Or it could be simply suffering of the consequences of the problem you're trying to denounce (whale bots->less visibility for content of equal quality).

What dan is proposing here and in his People Rank are at least first steps in finding a better system. Other possible solutions like a lottery based trending page (great short-term solution) and incentivized downvotes might also help making the situation better.

I'm proposing exactly what I said. If you don't have time to curate properly don't vote. That is pretty simple isn't it? Bots should not be seen as a substitute for lack of time.

But that's not something you can implement. Bad actors will always be there and need to be considered. A "cultural shift" isn't enough when it comes to these kinds of systems.

As I said in one of my replies ITT, try convincing @wang that he should stop making ~$4.5k USD/week in curation rewards because "he needs to curate properly". I doubt it'll work.

It does seem to me that this principle of fairness is an important one. Similar posts (in quality and content) by different should attract broadly similar rewards.
The current system does not seem to have any mechanisms to ensure this.

If you are not in the bot list you get nothing even if your content is better. I stop trying to make original content as it's useless until i get on that list.

I think you guys should make a rule that you can only vote on the same authors a maximum of 4-5 times per week I am a little tired of seeing the same authors make all the money every day. And you could penalize people on their curation rewards if they are abusing the voting system.

That is a really brilliant idea. It may also create an incentive for people to slow down on posting as it is fast becoming hard to keep up with posts. I suspect the post limit may need to be reduced down to 2 or maybe even 1 (from the current 4) in order to make things more manageable. It would certainly help to get a spotlight on greater range of posters.

The post limit sucks. It's a limitation on freedom of expression. Censorship. Why be punished if you want to write a lot of short messages? Who said that the steem blockchain shouldn't be used to post tweet sized messages? What if another application comes along to replace twitter and use steem? Then the stupid post limitation will ruin it.

Were you around before they did that? We had people posting B.S. literally about every 5 minutes. It made it extremely difficult to curate.

I agree! How do the little guys ever catch up?

And you could penalize people on their curation rewards if they are abusing the voting system.

How would that be determined? (What's abusing the voting system?)

Voting more then 20 times a day or voting only on the same exact authors 4 times a day. Or only following whales and voting on their work only.

Right, but then bots will just limit their number of votes strictly to 20 votes. I mean it's pretty much like that right now, with decreasing voting power after each vote. What you're proposing, I assume, is just to lower the limit. That doesn't solve the problem though, it only raises the question: "What limit is enough to dissuade bots, but not regular users from using the system?"

And why in the world should anyone have to have a limit on who and how many times they can vote for someone? Or anything? It's one vote per post. You're just suggesting another form of censorship.

There is no limit. You can vote once per post/comment. There is a % that your vote is worth. Without it what is to stop you for up voting every single post and comment that comes through and gaming the curation system. It'd amount to zero curation and tons of crap posts. You could post a 1 line post and get an up vote from all the people. You can vote as many times as you want. The weight of your vote decreases to prevent this problem. It is realistic and is not the thing people are complaining about, except a few outliers like yourself. I haven't actually heard many people complain about the % thing once they understand why it is there. If you want to get rid of it then you'd need to propose a solution that can replace it that would prevent gaming the system. It won't be pulled no matter how you dislike it without some viable alternative being in place.

@acassity

This already does happen :

And you could penalize people on their curation rewards if they are abusing the voting system.

After 20 votes in a 24 hour period there's a steeply curved drop off of voting weight. If you want to see your current voting power just look yourself up on steemstats.com created by @jesta. It allows you to track any users voting weight and shows how many votes they've thrown out in a 24 hour period. I use it daily because it has all kinds of embedded tools that scrape the blockchain for all the info you could possibly need. I honestly use it more than the built in user dashboard because it has more functionality right now and a much better user interface.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

This is getting too complicated:
How about this @dantheman?

  • posting rewards based on SP
  • curation rewards equal regardless to SP

That would eliminate the described issues I suppose.

  • Whales would need to produce quality articles - when appreciated, then lot of $, when not less $
  • Whales would upvote according to post quality, regardless to SP of author because curation reward would be equal across the site
  • quality will go up
  • fair competition
  • downvoting will not be necessary because there will be no extra profit from prioritizing whales but whales will get better author rewards based on SP so SP advantage will stay

malicious whales.....i find all whales in books to be good ones except for that moby dick.

Monstro the whale was evil.

of course you would know that...all whales know each other :) have a good weekend Dan

Only a truly evil whale would willingly eat a wooden toy who's only want in life was to become a real boy. LOL.

@dantheman This is an excellent post and to my mind has a dollar value of around $5,000 because it took time, effort, a lot of thought and is the type of conversation that will determine the future of this platform. This is much better than your last post on the topic.

For the rest of this comment I am speaking only to the section "Removing Down Votes from Posts", everything else has me nodding in a agreement.

In my last reply to you, I tried to drive home the fact that the tit for tat downvoting thing was not ok. I likened it to a schoolyard brawl and mentioned that the big difference is that someone could hire Mike Tyson to come in to settle the score.
It is clear you listened to those of us who felt this way and it's clear that you are trying to address our concerns and find balance in the system.

This proposal is better because it removes the ability to enter into that sort of conflict. Unfortunately this proposal is also worse in many ways.

Well written, well thought out, and you're thinking in terms of balance so that's good, but this is unbalanced and here is why...

You're talking about attacking the person rather than the idea.
If I can nullify a person's votes I can nullify their voice. This is going to encourage griefers.

That said, this system would be perfect if the ability to "veto", would be limited to a single posting. So if that's actually what you mean, then I've just spent a lot of time splitting hairs.

However the way this reads, it looks like you're talking about the person in general. I could basically mark a person who is doing a crappy job of voting, and nullify all of their votes. You don't mention a limit there, but it sounds like you mean for the day.

Certainly hope it's not a permanent thing, because that would cause a mass exodus.

There is a cost to nullifying. Although I'm now undecided after reading your point of view, I do think there needs to be a way of revoking the voting rights of bots.

@beanz Bots don't have feelings and aren't going to care. People care though. They make bots because it's easy to make bots and there is a financial incentive. You would need to eliminate the financial incentive but even that wouldn't stop the bots.

Let's say I ALWAYS agree with you beanz, literally you and I are always in agreement, at least to the point that I can find some excuse to upvote you for everything you do.
Maybe we're friends and even if I disagree with you. i want you to have this money, so I upvote you all the time.

How am I any different from a bot that follows you around upvoting everything you say or do?
So what's the difference between me and a bot that does what I tell it to?
@beanz check my blog for more discussion about this topic.

I'm glad to see discussion on this topic getting a lot of attention. But in reality, it seems like these things only really matter to the top 0.1% of users. My little $0.01 votes do not make a difference either way.

It will matter to you if you're getting flag abuse. I think this is brilliant, maybe someday the annoying little bot flags on my posts will be removed! :)

But if they were "worthless" down-votes, I do not see why it would matter? Unless of course, I am misunderstanding something.

Even the low-rep downvote bots can still affect your payouts. Generally not much, but sometimes quite a bit.

I'm pretty confident that those changes would massively impact anyone active on the platform. It will make your $0.01 votes more valuable, since competing with bots will be easier (reading content will actually make a difference).

The real change though is for small content creators. Changing the current reward payout structure directly addresses visibility issues, which makes most posts more likely to be seen & paid according to the value they bring to the site.

Whales also win, since the platform is likely to be more welcoming to new users and the value of STEEM is directly related to user adoption. User adoption has a much bigger impact on the value of their holdings than their curation rewards (even for bot whales, making 1%+ SP/week only in curation rewards).

@frankjones Your votes matter very much because SP and Rep are treated differently. While you may only be able to add $0.01 SBD to a post with a vote because of SP, your Rep of 58 would still have a massive effect on a lot of the current user base. Myself included. ;-)

Just a few observations and suggestions

  • Down vote the voter is a good idea. However, If you do that, it needs to be weighted for equality
  • if down voting post is necessary, post should go into immediate arbitration if value of post goes down below a certain percentage
  • Arbitration is immediate and finite (1hr?)
    arbitration rules: weighted by reputation
    65-75 worth 25 votes
    55-64 worth 5 votes
    54 and below 1 vote
  • Immediate restart after arbitration ruling

You could obvious tweek a few of the voting parameters. Adding the arbitration gives voters the chance to even the playing field if perceived unfairness is suspected.

Just a few quick suggestions..Your thoughts?

@celsius100 1 hour? We'd pretty much have to live on the platform to be that attentive. The 12 hour payouts are already being upped to a 24 hour cycle because in a global platform on the internet even 12 hours is a very small window of time when you consider that half the globe is sleeping for 6 to 8 of those hours and the rest likely have real lives to attend to outside of Steemit.

I would just like to suggest something, @dantheman

In this way, authors make sure to create better content and voters can vote wisely.

Please no.

I work hard on my 3-4 posts a day, I like being able to talk about "different" subjects. If it were one post a day, I'd be stuck to one subject and creating a really long article for that one subject would be difficult.

Why not space them out though? I don't think people are suggesting a hard limit. It would be similar to the current version where your payouts go down as you post more, so you could post more if you really wanted to.

I limit myself to once a day, but I don't think the limit needs to be that low.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@beanz You can currently make 6 posts every 24 hours before there's a drop off curvature in regards to author rewards.

**EDIT : This info is incorrect. The 24 hour post limit for authors before there is a drop in reward is "4" not "6". Thank you for catching my mistake on this @beanz!

Oh. Can you back this up? I've always understood it was 4.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@beanz Sorry, my bad, actually you are very much correct about the 4 posts before the drop off.

I've been up all night and didn't even catch this until you pointed it out. Here's a link to a tool that will let you look up the number of posts in a 24 hour period before the drop off takes effect.

Author rewards tool written by @mauricemikkres.
Link : http://steemdollar.com/limitstatus.php?name=steemit

Sorry again for the mistake, I've been working on a project for almost 36 hours with only a brief 2 hour nap so I'm starting to make typo's and now mistakes as well.

I may need to lay off of Steemit for the night just so I don't end up putting more bad info out there, or worse, writing bad code... Again, my bad and I apologize.

It might need to happen at some point. It is hard to keep up already and if you have someone who already attracts a lot of attention posting multiple times it reduces the likelihood of other posts getting noticed.

Artificially restrict the creation of information by censoring authors to one post a day? The only value created by the system is the information generated, and you want to cap that? People are concerned about fair distribution of rewards, not on capping the potential value of the entire system by limiting the amount of information allowed to be generated.

@themanualbot The 6 posts in 24 hours limit seems to be working fine right now. You can post all you want but after 6 original posts per 24 hours, there's a steep drop off in the author rewards. Silencing a social media platform would turn Steemit into the quietest social media platform in history.

With that kind of limit Steemit would easily devolve into just another form of alternative cryptocoin where posts don't matter.

Good to see the platform is being run by intelligent, intellectual people. Every time I see an interview, or a post from the founders I'm happy I put a few Bitcoin into the pot as an investment.

Downvoting a voter seems like a more personal attack. It may lead to wars between people and groups.

Why not have a drop down box with a few options when you downvote "spam" "robot" "abusing" "plagiarism" etc. where constructive feedback can be given to authors and metrics can be aligned to better understand the behavior of the author.

People that get to that level of power by USING steemit and steem would know it was not personal as they would have been using the system for awhile. The only people this might be true of are people who BUY IN and power up with actual money.

Right now new people are seeing this as a PERSONAL ATTACK already. There are more of them than the big guys, and their perception is important to the growth of this platform. We can't fix this completely as it is an emotional thing, and often emotions are irrational. We could perhaps find a way to lessen this perception.

But shifting the system to align with only the current perception is a short term solution. Perhaps looking longer term, in how future participants may view downvoting a person versus a post, might be a better exercise. The community will likely grow and more will reach a point where they can influence others.

As an example, if after a while you have 10 posts and only one or two are downvoted, it is easier to see it as a constructive learning experience relating to some specific outputs. You might be able to identify a reason (which would be easier if a category was set by the downvoter to give specific feedback) of the concern. If multiple downvotes are occurring for the same reason, it sends a strong message from the community to the author.

But if the system is people downvoting 'you' then it is tough to learn anything or see it as anything but a personal attack on who you are.

The difference is "they didn't like that post" versus "they don't like me". That may create a hugely compounding problem as they may reciprocate and downvote the other 'person' in retribution (and get their friends to do the same). Not sure if that is healthy for the platform. I would rather have a structure which can provide constructive criticism for a post, rather than a person.

That said, I think the aggregation of constructive criticism over all an author's posts can and should reflect the overall reputation of that author.

An up vote is pretty obvious to people that the person liked something about it. It may not be specific, yet if they REALLY like it they usually comment and it becomes clear. The problem with a down vote is that it can happen without a WORD. It can have huge impact as weights are not equal for everyone. So I do think there needs to be a dialog box or something that accompanies a down vote that the person must pick from a couple of choices to use it. That way there is at least some meaningful information that the AUTHOR can react to, and perhaps learn from and get better.

THIS does work on other platforms. Yet other platforms are not paying money to people.

I believe when you see $1000 as something you are likely to get and then you come back an hour later and it is $10 and it was down voted by one person. That likely would feel DRAMATICALLY different than seeing a number go from 10 votes to 9 votes. Huge difference. This is speculation on my part as I have not had this happen. I have seen it happen to others and judging from the reaction it felt to them like someone stole from them.

This is a mental perception, and with all that people know it is a pretty accurate perception until they begin to grasp the fact that money does not actually belong to them until the end.

So when I am talking perceptions, I am talking about perhaps there are things that could be added to the page/UI layout to indicate POTENTIAL EARNINGS which could change. Have it so that can be hovered over or clicked on things to EDUCATE people on how the system works.

The perception is it is an attack and theft, until they learn how it works here.

So let's make it easier for them to learn.

Otherwise, we have the pissed off person storming off and talking about it to all the other social media places, news outlets, etc.

You cannot predict how bad that might be for growth of the platform.

It happened to @dollarvigilante because @berniesanders felt too many people had already posted similarly themed articles. How was @dollarvigilante supposed to know that? How would anyone? I already have trouble getting to some of my older articles, and that is just my personal ones. I refer to this PROBLEM as discoverability and since it is in beta I believe this is something that WILL get fixed. If not here, then by someone else building a "window" into the blockchain.

Yet there may be things we could do to stave off some of these negative perception issues and quickly educate people on the different paradigm.

What do you think?

I agree, for downvotes we need some type of drop-down reason selected. I proposed this in one of my crazy-ideas posts, along with a few other ideas in how to make curation better and bring more people into the community.
Steemit Proposal for Developer and Community Evaluation
https://steemit.com/steemit/@mrosenquist/steemit-proposal-for-developer-and-community-evaluation

Because doesn't solve the problem at hand.

The goal of Steem is to reward users proportional to the value they bring

Absolutely agree that this is the goal of steemit and we as the userbase can choose to treat steemit as a secondary posting place for pictures, a way to find new content, or a serious job where we pour our heart into comments and blog posts.

I also had a question about the impact that would be had if the following were to happen:

One person becomes largely successful on steemit. They then say to their facebook friends hey make a profile on steemit and do nothing but upvote my content. If someone has 1 million facebook followers, even though there is only a small amount in each persons wallet that votes, couldn't the original poster wait until the other users made enough money and power down all the accounts with the destination being the original poster (the other accounts would only vote together on this one persons blog posts).

Is there any way to prevent this from happening? Basically creating a whale by upvoting content that is not really worth the amount of value that user brings?

Value is subjective, but I worry that some people have short term gains in mind and couldn't care less about other uses or the future of steemit.

Where money goes, greed follows. That will always be true. I don't know if there is a way to keep many people from attempting to do this very thing.

I would like to write a post about what the duties of a fat minnow should be (my upvotes change a comment or post a penny so I am still a minnow, but not a new minnow). It will definitely touch on not always upvoting friends content. Sometime the best thing you can do is not upvote a friends blog post because you feel they didn't put complete effort into it. It happens with everyone. We can't always create the best articles and writers hit writers block too.

I believe the following is very true though and should be followed to a tee to make sure steemit survives.

"Content is King!" that has no relation to whether or not the poster is your friend or someone you disagree with. Good content making money can only benefit steemit.

I'll expound further on other things I feel those in between minnow and dolphin (cuttlefish?) should be responsible for, since we still have the time to do a lot more than many whales do and can curate and help in other ways.

Hello @dantheman,

I have to thank you for this post. Many questions I had are answered here, for instance: "The only thing that keeps whales from frivolously voting on themselves is the potential to be down voted by other whales"

What is a great step forward is that whales are able to vote now with only a percentage of their voting power. For instance you like this post and want to upvote it but on the same side you think 240$ are too much, you could vote with 1% here. (You would do 99% because you like me) Just kidding :)
No please do it :D

Okay back to the topic, Steemit is like a newborn. Steemit will grow and will improve by what the community sees and what time shows us. The system is made to improve with the time.

I am happy to be part of all this.
Thank you for the opportunity

i really like the idea of down voting a specific up vote!

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

"More to come in a future post." ...and I can't wait. @dantheman
Very well written, and you make MANY great points.
I will not upvote my posts or replies from now on.
May have done a few, only the most clever ones though :^)
And maybe some smart dev @ned @dan @summon take to heart the issues you mention. The whale inheriting all the Curation Rewards from downvoting and the self-upvote issue, seriously not fair if you are WAY powered up.
This will get sorted out, no doubt about it.
This discussion is well worth having (necessary actually) and it is imperative that the dev team and founders pay attention to the rational and constructive posts and replies regarding the evolution of Steemit.
The hive is much smarter than any one or few of us. Tap into it.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

It's not an abuse to upvote your own comment now and then if you value it over the other comments. It is abuse if a whale does it all the time because they reward themselves a lot more money than we minnows do.

well, what pisses me off is I just posted my intro, links to flickr photos apparently don't work, and all my comments are from bots it seems. Why me?
if @berniesanders would maybe just take a look I'd appreciate it.
starving here. literally. waiting for a damn unemployment check.

Don't beg...

It's really not advised.

I would be afraid of downvoting someone with a bigger stake than me incase they retaliated, could this be countered in anyway?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

good post and leaves a lot to think about. new members with low ratings are the ones that have the most to lose by downvoting. all someone has to do is flag every post and comment they have made and they become a ghost. I have seen a whale basically remove someone from steemit because they didn't like the person. he is now a ghost with a negative rating all because of one person. he has been posting his experience all over and it is growing a lot of attention. a lot of people i know will not join steemit because they don't like the fact that some asshole can go out of there way to destroy a noobs account and not be held accountable. in fact she received a lot of up votes because she played the victim after spending 24 hours flagging anything he posted. she then turned it around to boohoo this guy wont leave me alone with comments asking why she downvoted anything he ever posted. I do not think giving the easily offended the power to flagg people for no reason will do anything good for this site. if anything it is going to make people avoid it. that's just how I feel after watching a friend lose his account for no reason and how others reacted to his story. I know of many people I would like to see come here but they wont even consider this site after word started spreading how the rating system worked. it sux!

fantastic post! i really enjoy your insight into these topics, especially because i just started with steemit 4 days ago and am trying to learn as much as I can about the platform and how it works, while posting content thats true to me bout my artwork and process behind each piece, hopefully thats of some value to the community :)

Downvoting - is necessary. But as it seems to me it's used not correctly. The reason is covered in that any can press a flag. If it is spam, the robot, a bad content I agrees. But what means earns much? What criteria of judgment that means much and that enough. And the most important who judge?

There is no right or wrong in up or down vote. Just different opinions by two stakeholders entitled to their opinion.

Flagging is Steem's Censorship...... Whales are steem's Gate-keepers. This needs fixing ASAP


Could it be that things are not as they seem?
When you vote do you see that you lost steem?
I click the arrow up and my wallet seems the same
Anger, Confusion, and reaction it might be a shame

I clicked and it says something that is for sure
What it says cannot be something that we insure
Only an indicator of what we would like to see
Yet truly you gave nothing, to you that was free

Meaning nothing can be stolen there is no thief
Surely to you as to me this also is a relief
It is funny how things can be shaped in our mind
By the familiar around us when truth we would find

We see harm where no harm exists
In familiar clothing we frame it, and continue to insist
At the point when we realize nothing was truly taken
That is the moment when understanding may awaken

That does not mean there is nothing negative to be viewed
Simply that which we are aiming at is due to targeting skewed
There is still much that we can do to improve this place
Helping people change their views may be saving grace

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I love this qoute right here :

A voting robot that votes “randomly” provides no new information. A poster that publishes “random” content also provides no new information. It is all noise. Some people might even say that by increasing the noise floor this kind of behavior consumes resources and destroys information and therefore could have objectively negative value.

@dantheman You just expressed the voting behavior of bots and random posters who add little to no value as a simple SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) equation!

Hahahahaha! I love it!

canceling votes, and downvote the voter... how will that affect on reputation of the author? and I saw many beginner's posts flagged (reputation fell from 25 to -1) in someones first or second day on steemit... is that necessary? can community forgive some beginner's mistakes in first few days of steeming?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@dumar002 Hit up people in steemit chat if this happens. This problem has been acknowledged and addressed by an overwhelming number of users. With regards to most of the community, a sincere apology for bad behavior, or even simply pointing out that someone killed your rep without good cause (accidentally thought you were a bot, etc.) is typically fixed very quickly now.

Because accidents do happen sometimes (especially when people are new) it's been acknowledged that this type of problem can easily drive people away from the platform and was never the intent of the current Rep system in place. The platform is still in beta so most of these problems will be all worked out in good time. ;-)

They can redeem themselves by making contact with the flagger which is a lot easier if the flagger left a comment. The question is how long will it take for people to realise that the behaviour they've become accustomed to on other social media platforms is not the type of behaviour that contributes value to steemit.

There's a lot people will just have to un-learn, and that's going to take some time and personal adjustments.

The system doesn't order to the flagger to leave a comment, but it should. About the behaviour, I've noticed that people adapt pretty fast to steemit. Everybody have problems or questions first few days and there is no need to be strict to them

perhaps the introduction of probationary period

What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter?

What would be the direct incentive to down vote a voter? Without an incentive, it remains an unbalanced vote.

I'm still not sure why incentivizing downvotes based on their contribution to the payout (similar to prediction markets) would be a bad thing. It seems like it would solve many issues, and would definitely bring the payout closer to its objective value (as defined by the value given by the community as a whole). More on this here.

This take value away from other curators and authors and gives robotic whale curators a unchecked easy path to profit.

Yup. We have hundreds of bots simply upvoting based on a users name. Mine included. Reading content has become a waste of curation time. This leads to a huge visibility issue for anyone else. Self-fulfilling prophecy really. If you don't upvote people on those lists, you're effectively losing money.

I was merely railing against the idea of democracy being unjust when rulership is involved. Steemit is voluntary and a market decides reward and rules are agreed to, unlike an imaginary social contract, whuch I have never signed. Hope that clears things up.

Great points. I like using the votes against each other (downvote the voter) instead of the post option. I feel it allows a balance to disagree with the post for reasons not related to the post. What would the problem be also with allowing downvote reasons? Allow me to downvote the post for fraud/scam and it impacts pay, disagree with content doesn't affect pay etc etc... Definitely growing and nice to see thinking is being done

I will reply in the forums where I am a whale, and I won't lose anything for speaking my mind.

Dan, thank you for speaking out on this topic. I have been tracking bot voting behaviors for a while, and I've ran some profitability experiments on various bot voting systems (author lists, new content, whale follower, etc..)

I have been however abstaining from talking on this topic, as it might upset some people - the very people that have the power to make or break a minnow.

Curation Rewards for Doing Nothing
You're absolutely right. It is possible to not only completely offset the dilution from creation of new Steem, but also to profit and grow ones % share with automated curation. Fortunately, this model is breaking down, as more and more bots compete for the same authors, and post-to-vote (time delta between the vote and the time a post is published) is decreasing in a race to the bottom.

Removing Down Votes from Posts
The proposal to have the ability to downvote abusive uptoves is a really good one. Authors will take post downvotes personally, and perhaps see it as a rejection of their work, or as a personal attack from a larger stakeholder. Whilst downvote on vote system adds additional complexity, it is imo a far better solution to rewards normalization and abuse prevention.

I have said multiple times that curation rewards are corrupted. People upvote content because it will make them money via curation rewards not because they think it's good. Most don't even read the post or even open it. They know a whale upvoted or will upvote and that's it. That's the definition of corruption to me.

I'm guilty myself but got fed up and lately I started to meditate on it. I don't think it's good for the mind and soul, similar to what gambling does to your brain. And while there is no risk of losing your money, you are definitely losing your integrity.

sigh

This just makes so much sense. Glad to see you are giving this so much thought, and I'm sure you guys will get the solution (mostly) right. You always do.

@dantheman

very interesting post.

"What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter? When you down vote a voter you nullify their voting power with your own voting power. It is the moral equivalent of casting equal and opposite votes on every post without offending the posters."

yes i agree, the poster has done nothing wrong. the whale has to be punished !

So i see 2 Options:

Down-Voting a Vote (if you click on the voters box and next the voters name a flag would appear) this would only hurt the earnings of the bad Whale

Down-Voting a user reputation(down-voting his posts), this would hurt is earnings and his reputation

So this would tackle most of the problems you have described, but still if i was a whale, i would be annoyed, if i have to use my voting power to downvote someone. So only if the down-voter would be able to get curation rewards, this will be fair.

So the question is, if some whales do downvote a rogue whale, and theifore saving the platform, do we need compensation rewards?

If you are constantly have to down-vote someone, and therefore cant vote on posts which would have earned you potentially 10x -20x the amount you are earning through a down-vote, the effect would be, that whales would not care and not put that bad whale in check as they want to earn money and help posters with great content to earn $.

I think you have to assess this thing very carefully, as the decision you are making will have huge impact on the future of steemit.

ciao !

@dantheman thanks for the reply. I hadn't really looked at this issue from the perspective of the whale and potential massive abuse that could happen at that end of the spectrum. I was more influenced by seeing whales that slapped down a post because, "someone already said something like this before" to a new person that couldn't possibly know that (until discover-ability is improved), or for using the wrong tag. Now since the slider has been added for HOW much the slap down is, this might not be as big of an issue. I was not even reacting to anything that I'd personally experienced. I was reacting to seeing people with posts people liked and still trying to find their STEEMIT LEGS getting slammed. Yet again the sliding scale you guys now have access to can help with that. It certainly has freed all of you up to vote on whatever you like without fear of paying someone $1000 for a simple comment. (Kudos to you and the team on that).

At the end you discussed voting against votes. This is an interesting idea. Yet if we were limited to one vote (which we really should be or we'd game the system) effectively it would be no different than now. I suspect I'm not quite grasping this idea completely as it sounds like the same thing but just phrasing the words in a different fashion so it sounds different.

This is indeed a tricky balancing problem. Most of the issue is REALLY about perception. It could remain as it is if we could find some useful way to explain what is going on to new people. Would it be possible for the flag to attach a REASON for the down vote? This would at least inform the person of why they were down voted, and if other people wanted to counter it they'd have a chance to know why it occurred.

Good post. Thanks for chiming in on this subject.

EDIT: and yes I just realized DOH! Wrong monitor... out of character... should have posted this as @dwinblood

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I completly that only up votes is a no go. I see, so instead of making voting and reputation a different thing you want to make it reputation only? Not sure what is your plan but it's for the better for sure.
Ps: You are the ones that added the auto-upvote button, I never upvoted my own posts till you added that button, and till it was spoken that it's a good thing to do.

He's talking about upvoting your comments which you can do all day, not your blog posts which you can only do up to 4 times a day before your curation rewards get diluted.

Well it's a good thing only in the sense that if you don't do it and others do, you'll be missing out on potential gains in visibility compared to them. It wouldn't be an option if no one was allowed to upvote themselves, but that's not something we can prevent, so the next best thing is to join them.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Down voting a whale?! That's one scary thing to do.
The Revenge of the Whale

Jajaja. It sound like a film title: "Attack of the killer whales"

I have seen some retaliatory voting happening before. So yeah down vote a whale and you might be flattened by the tail. :)

EDIT: Though it was not a whale I saw doing retaliation... so likely not an issue. Our down vote has very little impact on a whale. We are but Ramora's clinging to their side. :)

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

@dwinblood If your Rep is lower than the person you are downvoting then you have no effect on them anymore. That change was instituted as part of the new Rep system and has nothing to do with SP anymore. It was added as an abuse prevention method to stop low Rep/SP bots from swarming and still collectively being able to have an effect on a post.

support

I agree! Nice post!

I think Negative Voting is very important to fight against Spam, Copy-paste, plagiarism etc. So, "NEGATIVE VOTING" is a positive POWER of steem members. It makes our steem environment clean & helps to be a collection of ONLY GENUINE CONTENTS.

Another reason for the down votes:

Say we have a user that posts a very good article that is well written, very detailed, and enjoyed by many. Then, someone comes along and says this article is not yours. Its word for word from an author at another site. (provides the proof)

When I see someone getting paid for a copy and paste it burns me up. This is WHY WE NEED DOWN VOTES in my opinion. To take away this reward for what the user has done.

But, if the user is just commenting on said article and giving credit to the original author and generating conversation about said topic, then I say this is different.

This is REPORTING a post. Does not necessarily have to be a down vote. Yes this type of facility is a must. Yet it may not need to be part of the down vote unless we want to provide a REASONS 2 or 3 bits explaining why the vote occurred.

Thats why we have cheetah bot

yes.. but it does not catch them all. I caught several on photoshopped images holding a steemit sign. When I called them out, they deleted the post and the photo. These were not caught by the bot.

Yeah she is a flawed bot, nobody's perfect :P

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

The current curation system has some weaknesses.

It is really easy to predict if a post gets a lot of votes. If the poster has a reputiation over or around 64/65 it is really likely to get most of the votes around the 9-15 minutes. That's why if I want to get any curation rewards, I need to read only the first part of the post. If I like it or sounds interesting, I need to upvote it asap and go back to reading it.

The recently introduced feed tab made it even worse. It is a very good feature, but the avarage user only check the feed and not the new posts.

I think this behaviour will create a small group of authors who get a very high reputation, and others will have very small.

I am happy that you also see there are problems in the system and try to find a way to balance it.

I love the Feed tab, but I agree there needs to be a little more incentive to seek new people to reward or follow.

But i was about to say, nice.. shot you an upvote?!

Penalize the voters.. might work, Sounds interesting

The goal of Steem is to reward users proportional to the value they bring.

Say we have an author with IQ of 200 among us, posting theories that no-one understands. He may be solving the world problems before our eyes, and yet we may not understand a thing on what he writes. Naturally his contributions would be at 0.00$.

In this scenario the author brought value, no-one perceived it as such and thus the author left because nobody understood his brilliance (he may even found the 0.01$ rewards insulting).

So, in a way, what is rewarded is "perceived value" - because, as you point out, these things related to values are highly subjective.

Why is there an opportunity to vote for their own posts, and especially comments? Basically it does not relate to the whales, but to the dolphins. Because whales are few and always in sight. Dolphins too, but there are many more. I would like to highlight the abuse comments by "bad" dolphins. They can post a comment with zero value and upvote it. "Good" whales and dolphins can not physically monitor these comments. Minnows can, but most will be afraid of angering the dolphins, and the rest can not in any way affect the payment.

Looking at the comments build up here I guess I understand why you never have time to reply to any of my questions. :P

In reality what is going on is a disagreement among voters. Some voters think the post should be worth more, others think it should be worth less.

What if instead of down voting a post, you could down vote a voter?

For me, this is exactly what I have been missing in Steem: to have a way to counteract existing upvotes without offending the post's author. I fully support this idea.

Success makes so many people hate you. I wish it wasn't that way. It would be wonderful to enjoy success without seeing envy in the eyes of those around you.

Yes I agree this is a big problem... the Steemit platform needs to adjust to prevent abuse by the big value posters... perhaps creating a upper limit on the value of an upvote (say $10?) would be a way to create more equality... I have to admit that I am no techie so I would appreciate a back and forth on this issue.

This would eliminate a lot of the incentive that convinces people to invest in steem power which locks people into the system for two weeks if they want that money out. Also an upper limit is subjective. You may say $10, I may say $100, someone else may say $1000. Who are we to limit another person? Yet this is also the issue with down voting. Technically we shouldn't be able to limit a down voter. I simply would like a way to perhaps negate the bad perceptions for the platform that it engenders. More information on the down vote? Reason for the down vote? etc.

Great calls here, dantheman.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

if YouTube had the same negative vote system? would not have a gerra of downvote between content producers authors ? per only to allocate adsense and get the biggest slice of the pie ?

Fantastic

I think the real issue here is that major stakeholders were outpowered by bad stakeholders by profiting in the system in any way possible, bad or good. And that the main solution is by changing the voting system from normal voter to the highest sp holder aka whales. Am I right?

Some interesting points here; also some disturbing stuff for e.g. 'Misallocation of funds can only occur if voters collectively allow it to happen.' That brings to mind an old quote, which I think goes, 'Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing'. Also, since authors cannot abuse the platform, and since the aim of some [many?] voters seems to be precisely the abuse [intelligent exploitation?] of said platform, one wonders why authors should stick around...

Sounds very rational for me

This was a good post to CLARIFY the earlier posts which were obviously misunderstood by a number of people. Voting in Steemit obviously has a number of parallels with poll voting, but it has a few major differences too. Let's be honest here, not that individuals haven't affected elections before, but they have to find a way to influence hundreds if not thousands of people to do so. There are no "Whales" in poll voting, no ones vote counts for more than a single tally. The Steemit system is an interesting social experiment, and can be tweaked or adjusted down the line as necessary. That being said, if this is truly a free market, should such tweaks or adjustments actually be made? That's probably a question for people with more influence than me, but it's nice to think the "little guy" has a say that matters!!!!

A malicious whale (hacked account, hostile takeover, etc), would short STEEM on the market and then vote to give himself as much as he could

they would not short STEEM, whales are smart.
Shorting STEEM is the way to kill the whales.

All Abuse is Exercised by Voting
autovoting is the first way for abusing the system.
Your post is downvoted

"Under such a system authors who vote for them selves and curators who vote robotically would be negated. Only those who vote responsibly would remain. Voting spam would be eliminated."

I think it's important to point out that this could work but it is not perfect. Just like voting for president, the winner is the one whos votes canceled out the others votes and had more remaining. But if the voters aren't paying attention an undeserving candidate can get elected. Here, if the voters aren't paying attention undeserving content will still get higher payouts. It also opens the door to voter attacks which would hurt the content creator. I also feel the authors feelings shouldn't be taken into account with the voting system. If voters dont have the right to offend the author with their votes should the author have the right to offend the voters with their content?

Of course users will down vote higher SP users ,it's logic again why take monetary value away just leave the little flags.

Undeserved upvotes are becoming a norm in Steemit.
Downvoting the upvotes is a much needed feature.
If someone has the right to vote a post for financial gains, others should have the right to downvote this behaviour.

For whales, there is also a problem of precision. If a whale thinks an article is worth $100, but her up-vote is worth $300, it is impossible for the whale to be a good voter. Up-vote and abstain both fail to reflect the whale's value judgement.

They fixed that in the past few days. They now have a slider that let's them adjust their amount. This has freed them up to vote on things they really couldn't before. Before a simple up vote of your comment might be worth $1000. Now they can slide that and give you a different amount.

Nice . That's exactly the sort of solution I was imagining. Thanks!

That's no longer the case. They have introduced a scale for your vote if you have above a certain amount of SP

@remlaps That was just fixed a few days ago. High SP holders can now adjust their own voting weight manually with a slider so they don't have to be all or nothing voters anymore.

Due to the voting power algorithm, people don't want to "waste" votes. So, downvoting is rarely done, people are cheap with their votes, they don't vote on comments too much, and if you did implement downvoting of votes, people would still be cheap with casting downvotes. The voting power algorithm doesn't seem to work, as far as I can tell. If you run a bot then you get rewarded proportional to the steem power you have by voting up obviously sucessful posts, even if your voting power is low, it earns a lot. But that just kills the ability of people to earn enough curation awards by going with their real gut and human insight.

I have nothing against 'wasting' my vote -- and I do flag inappropriate material -- but the present interface gives us the choice of upvote, flag, or abstain. Flag and downvote may be the same in the code, but they are far from the same in this user's mind.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

This discussion is like photo, I think we need some statistics for normal analyzing and full picture

A whale is a collusive group. This means that a whale has enough stake to earn a huge profit by voting on their own post regardless of post quality. The only thing that keeps whales from frivolously voting on themselves is the potential to be down voted by other whales. This creates a check and balance at the highest levels which protect the system from abuse.

It's still a freeroll though. The whale might as well vote frivolously (for an alt account or for their friends even if not for their own post), unless the downvote actually did something besides negate their upvote. Like diminish their future voting power.

I think something that attempts to rank how well people are perceived to be voting (curator rating) helps sort this out.

And it could start like building a credit rating where by default you don't really have any, and a whale would have to prove good judgment before their steem power alone gave them a ton of influence.

@full-measure You have to realize that you are right if this were reddit. But the way steemit is designed. The only reason to become a whale is to have cachet off the bat without having to build an audience organically. You might not be able to form a coherent thought on your own, but if you put enough money into your account we will give you a substantial audience.
If you make it harder for them to play their game. They will go home.

Well I mean, I'm not saying steem power would be nerfed really, just that you have to deserve it. What I meant is like (curator rating) * (steem power), like you still have incentive to load up but if you don't use it properly it gets muffled.

I don't see why we need the incentive of people joining just to pump up their posting. There are plenty of better reasons to join. If they don't join because it's a turnoff to them to have to be regarded as someone who curates in a way that's good for the platform, that seems like exactly the right person to weed out.

To be clear, I don't have any, like, visceral distaste for certain people having a lot of influence. I just wish the incentives were more naturally aligned. It seems like a clear problem to me that the whale's incentive (anyone's incentive, to whatever extent it's worth the aggravation) is always to reward themselves.

Thanks for your reply. I'm still wrapping my head around everything and could be out to lunch :) but for the time I stand behind what I'm saying.

@full-measure Fair enough I can get behind that.

Hi, If upvote your own posts is considered inappropriate. Why not simply remove that option from the platform?, I think this would create a dilemma for whales with bad behavior.

What an exciting new game to be a part of! We can witness individual voters as they express their own values through assigning or removing value from others...that’s profound on so many levels...it’s truly incredible to witness many players choosing to BE the change from the established model, and at this point we can only hypothesize as to how it will unfold...

Looking forward to the continuation @dantheman

good post . thank you

welcome to my art
https://steemit.com/@romanskv

I don't really think this has any relevance to the article @dantheman wrote. Essentially you wrote what a bot could and hen promoted your content.

I'd take a step back and think what would happen if everyone did the same thing. THe comment section would be meaningless.

I did the same thing for a while hoping it would be noticed by a whale until actually I touch on the topic in this post Taking Collaboration To The Next Level

Notice how I engaged with you, but also brought an article I think would be helpful up for you to view if you wish.

It's up to you how you wish to comment, but I think you will find a lot more success if you don't continue commenting in this way as it looks more like begging than commenting.

I expressed my attitude. I don't care what what it looks like. I have nothing to add to the text. I liked it

Thank you for your your response. You opened my eyes to what you felt was valuable and pictures can be worth many words. I'm glad you responded maturely and that way of responding has led me to have a higher respect for you and I will follow you see see future insights from you.

thank you) is always welcome) good and peace to you)

OW! That hurts.

Whew... that is better... that other image style tends to give me a headache, actually triggers migraines in my wife and her family (some weird genetic thing).

then get a bit crazy live and your migraine will go away
https://steemit.com/humor/@romanskv/crazy-russian-guy-compilation-funny-videos

Heheh... I've only ever had a migraine once in my life. My wife gets them frequently though.

"Under such a system authors who vote for them selves and curators who vote robotically would be negated. Only those who vote responsibly would remain. Voting spam would be eliminated."

No. What would happen is that eventually everyone would be downvoted all the time by everyone competing for the piece of the pie. It would be in one's best interest, as a dolphin, for example, to target all dolphins that have pending payouts over their pending payout amount with downvotes. No one would upvote anymore, and the experiment left desolate of participants.

To me it looks like chicken and egg problem. Which should be explored with more variables.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I think for me the solution would work if I just would be charged for downvoting, like "is it ok for you to spend 1 SBD for that downvote? Ok,do that"

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Bots need to be free to downvote continuously to combat spam and abuse. Sorry wouldn't work.

Thank you, now I can see about whales and dolphin in different way.... :)

"There can be only one"....most people aren't going to do well on Steem. There will be leaders and followers just like every other social network.

i dont care upvoted or downvoted Because to me is not a good place to make money

Value is subjective. thank you for saying this. Very few have this dumb idea that value can be anything but. -Dave

I'm waiting for the price of Steem to get beat down by all the crypto-welfare state breadline I see in the #introduceyourself section. ;)

Then once the initial hype is over and each semi-known crypto personality has got their $1000 of Steem and Steem Dollars and sold most of them off on Polo I might go buy some Steem and set it to power up.

Of course I could be wrong and miss out on the market cap suddenly going to $1 billion.

Do the system a favor and start up-voting regular people who have nothing to do with crypto so that there is more variety and this gets out of the crypto niche orbit...

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I'd rather see a bread line of semi-known personalities getting $1000 each than one Steem lead developer getting $12000 over a few days. The former at least brings in some new people, some of whom may like what they see and say good things about it to their followers. The latter brings in zero new people and adds virtually zero value (in fact it destroys value by making Steem look like a scam that developers have set up to enrich themselves at the expense of investors).

If Dan wants to create more blog posts about important topics of intense widespread interest like Is the DAO going to be DOA then I will be the first to upvote them, and if they pay out $10000 I'm fine with it. Because those kinds of posts, and the attention they attract, add value to the platform. These posts do not.

Or a bunch of unknown people with a good piece of writing get $100.

@smooth that was a perfect use of a vote (imho). An upvote showing appreciation for my comment (which I appreciate), with a weight of 1% because it wasn't worth money (which it wasn't).

It makes tremendous sense for me to vote simple but valued comments with low-weight votes because I can give hundreds of them out relatively freely (unlike regular votes which are limited by vote power). Maybe it isn't feasible for everyone to use their limited voting power on comments but I will do my part.

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

I like it. I like it more than smoothie recipes getting paid out $1000. Which happened this morning.
I'm going to make it tomorrow because it's got to be sooooo-o-o good. I've never had a $1000 smoothie before.

p.s. I think most of my votes go to comments.

What is your opinion about torrents posted here?

I can see why the n2 weighting was introduced - but it has the side effect that the earning and voting power of whales is so many orders of magnitudes larger than that of newbies that there is little incentive for new users to build their power through constructive contributions of all kinds.
If fame and glory seem out of realistic reach, even with talent and hard work, many good people won't make the attempt.
As I understand the argument in the white paper, the n2 has been introduced to avoid a linear (n1) relationship. Is there reason not to pick an exponent somewhere between 1 and 2?
In fact, could this even be a variable parameter that adapts over time, e.g. to achieve a certain target "Gini coefficient" of the distribution?