Now that you can vote yourself some real money, how tempted are you?

personz (66) · 8 years ago

Very important. As I'm sure you're aware this was one of the reasons for squared vote curves.

From the whitepaper, this is known as the Prisoners Dilemma:

The naive voting process creates a Prisoner’s Dilemma whereby each individual voter has incentive to vote for themselves at the expense of the larger community goal. If every voter defects by voting for themselves then no currency will end up distributed and the currency as a whole will fail to gain network effect. On the other hand, if only one voter defects then that voter would win undeserved profits while having minimal effect on the overall value of the currency.

In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner. For example a quadratic function in votes, i.e., someone with twice the votes of someone else should receive four times the payout and someone with three times the votes should receive nine times the payout. In other words, the reward is proportional to votes^2 rather than votes. This mirrors the value of network effect which grows with n^2 the number of participants, according to Metcalfe’s Law.

Assuming all users have equal stake, someone who only receives their own vote will receive much less than someone who receives votes from 100 different users. This encourages users to cooperate to vote for the same things to maximize the payout. This system also creates financial incentive to collude where everyone votes on one thing and then divides the reward equally among themselves.

$5.85

6 votes

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Wish more people actually bothered to read the whitepaper.

$3.27

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

I did but they don't update changes. So if you read the white paper you still might think inflation is 100% a year...

$0.61

personz (66) · 8 years ago

Did you know I made the initial steps to update the whitepaper by meticulously translating it to LaTeX format? I made a pull request on the 24th of March. We're getting on to be 3 months from that now.

I really wish @sneak would accept it, or do some alternate solution, so we could get to updating it. The paragraphs I have just quoted are another thing to add to the out of date stuff.

@neoxian @lennstar this may interest you. What can we do to push this on finally?

$1.43

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

I did not, that is interesting. Annoying reading out of date information...

$0.25

personz (66) · 8 years ago

Actually there's some movement on this now 😁

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Just keep bugging him I guess.

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Fair enough, but most of the other stuff still applies..well one less thing now.

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

completely agree. I wrote a post on how blown away I was by it all here: https://www.bitcoin-millionaire.com/steem-cryptocurrency-bought-1-bitcoin-worth/

cosmicfontaint (42) · 8 years ago

Your upvotes has also significantly grown... Hm... it's a bit ridiculous. Don't think that comments deserve to generate so much money. It's stimulating indeed but it can open a hunt on whales. Why generate content if you can just comment?)

It's ridiculous but my made "just for fun" alterego made a good profit from dirty humor comments. Much more than new content did.

$0.00

josephd (53) · 8 years ago

To be fair, I've had some great conversations in the some comment sections here. Many times they've been much more informative and entertaining than the post itself. I'd rather keep the incentive to comment alive.

$0.76

personz (66) · 8 years ago

Btw I didn't actually answer your question. I'd be upvoting my posts by default as it is the steemit.com interface default for a while. I also manually upvoted my comments when I wanted to raise the visiblity.

It certainly has a different taste now though :/

$0.00

lennstar (66) · 8 years ago

Too bad that only works as long as you aren't a whale and not using bots ;)

$0.00

personz (66) · 8 years ago

Lol, good point. Things always come up as experiments continue. I'm glad in this case that something popular was listened to.

Now, let's hope it works out! 🤞

Don't forget, as difficult as the sell would be, we can always roll back 😉

$0.00

josephd (53) · 8 years ago (edited)

This is understandable in the beginning, but doesn't make sense when most of the voting power in a network of 200,000 + people gets concentrated within less than a 100 people, how can they ever hope to curate that much content ?

Anyways, LOTS of self voting (for whales) was happening before the HF too.

$0.00

personz (66) · 8 years ago

That's the idea! Yea I think you are right, it was something I've supported for a while.

$0.02

josephd (53) · 8 years ago

And the self voting will reduce once the initial hype of the HF dies, right now people are literally self voting for 'fun' and to see how much their votes are worth lol. I'm confident this won't continue

$0.00

personz (66) · 8 years ago

I'm interested to see if that's true. It would be easy to do the stats on this in say a weeks time. Might be a good project.

$0.00

thatgermandude (59) · 8 years ago

I think the Prisoner Dilemma premises that humans are inherently evil and will try to abuse the system. On the other side much of Steem is actually founded on the principal of humans being positiv and social.

N² also created the unfair hit or miss environment and overall huge inequality between trending and new. I feel like n² was like shooting mocking birds with heavily artillery.

$0.00

johnsmith (64) · 8 years ago

I am trying very hard to give one vote to another for every vote I give to myself.

Not gonna lie, it is freaking hard

$3.81

6 votes

oceancoinz (56) · 8 years ago

ROFL, it is freaking hard, but we'll get through this together. =P

$5.28

johnsmith (64) · 8 years ago

It is a really, really great problem to have :)

$2.97

oceancoinz (56) · 8 years ago

This is actually scary, that was at 3% lol. Happy steeming.

$2.23

johnsmith (64) · 8 years ago

I'm going to zero... I just can't stop! :)

$2.09

oceancoinz (56) · 8 years ago

Quite additive, share the weatlh!

$2.01

oceancoinz (56) · 8 years ago

You know what's funny is that is makes you comment more. Great incentive thats for sure.

$0.15

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

haha I am doing it but I always have :D

$3.89

acassity (61) · 8 years ago

Followed and voted! I turned my voting power down though don't wanna spend it all in one place.....

$1.52

johnsmith (64) · 8 years ago

Thank you! I'm going at 100% all day today, see how long it takes to get to zero. This is just amazing. Good luck!

$1.54

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

I want to burn it all to test the system...

$0.17

acassity (61) · 8 years ago

I am scared to do that what if they cancel it and go back to the old system if everyone does that?

$0.00

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

HF is done! It is locked in now!

$1.36

flipstar (71) · 8 years ago (edited)

I did upvote myself a lot anyway and now I am even more incliend to, since I see it as my mining here.

I am curious how people will upvote now.

I liked to be pretty generous on the comments on my own posts with my upvotes and also here I just have to gather experience on how much voting power I can use now, since I still want to be recharged after 24 hours ( if this is still a thing?)

I am curious what the new voting system will do to the price of steem.

Exciting times we live in.

And I am still upvoting myself

my voting power tomorrow will feel after it just came back from 1 week partying

$2.64

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

Voting for everyone until I go to 0

$0.08

zack813 (47) · 8 years ago

It's not much different if I vote or not vote someone because my reputation is not high.Although my power is used so fast, I always vote myself. I just get used to do this. I think I must change it or I'll always beg for your power.

$2.61

9 votes

kingscrown (81) · 8 years ago

this changes will make hardcore inflation.. which cant end good imo - but we will see

$2.06

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Actually no, this hardfork does not create any more Steem then usual.

$0.00

realcodysimon (55) · 8 years ago

I think in the beginning people will vote themselves some money, it gives them a confidence boost. I hope as time goes on however they realize it still benefits them to vote for other peoples as well. That being said I am totally upvoting this comment along with your post ;)

$1.91

lucashunter (58) · 8 years ago

I am really tempted but the steempower drains so fast. I think people don't know that yet. Some already drained their power. Truly with great power comes great responsibility

$1.65

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

Enjoy who knows how long it will last!

$0.20

lucashunter (58) · 8 years ago

Yeah, I feel this will drain the reward pool fast and it may be rolled back. But we can't say for sure what is going to happen.

$0.13

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

I am voting every comment and reply until I go to 0. So enjoy fellow steemers :D

$0.17

lucashunter (58) · 8 years ago

You are currently at 3% of your voting power. What happens now?

$0.13

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

I have voted nearly 100 times and it is not 0 yet so I dont think the HF is working as per intentions.

lucashunter (58) · 8 years ago

That could be a bug or something. If it is doesn't stop rewarding at a lower voting power then the reward pool is in a big trouble.

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

Looks like it is the real deal!

$0.66

lucashunter (58) · 8 years ago

You will get to the 0 after the 40th upvote. One 100% upvote drains 2% of your total voting power. I will watch your account thanks

$0.13

vogard04 (51) · 8 years ago

Very very tempted me:D

$1.63

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

At least you are honest.

$0.04

vogard04 (51) · 8 years ago

Honestly it is beautiful.

$0.04

onetree (68) · 8 years ago

You received 72 votes (and counting). 😉

$1.24

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Thank goodness for generous voters!

$0.03

onetree (68) · 8 years ago

Maybe we really are generous? Wouldn't it be awesome to feel differently about humanity, if only for a moment.?

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Can I have 20 dollars then? ;)

$0.56

onetree (68) · 8 years ago

Um 89c, already spent my SP!!!

$7.28

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Thanks!

$0.03

l0k1 (69) · 8 years ago (edited)

I already was, and at some time it was as much as 20,000SP. I don't see how 'me' should be excluded from one's ranking of value of everything. Isn't it even the emblematic boilerplate election shot of a politician casting a vote, most likely for himself, on every tv news channel?

I look at it this way - self voting is essentially distributing the new tokens to everyone. I don't vote my comments but it looks like this is going to be a thing for the graspy imaginationless spammer types for a while. I don't think it really matters in the long run, the more people the less this is a profit and blah blah. It's just a transition period because the userbase had adapted to 10 cent steem, and now it's 20x the size. The market will bring the people to try every way to get a piece of it they can think of. And probably a new hardfork change will be indicated by the way it is played out.

$0.92

oceancoinz (56) · 8 years ago

Haha, it's hard, however it makes you think about it before you give the upvote now.

$0.89

rocking-dave (57) · 8 years ago

Quite tempted to very tempted despite the fact that might vote is still quite miniscule. But I'm actually happier that I can spread some value around as before the hardfork my votes were basically worthless (below 1 cent). Now I'm up all the way to 3 cents I think. Mayble I'll be capable of a few 4 cent votes when fully regenerated :P I think I'll actually be looking at my votes with a bit more responsibility and care now as they finally have some value.

I think the biggest implication of this hardfork is that it makes it possible for newcommers to make some Steem even with a very small following and attention. In the past the exponential curve was keeping those very low and now they have been dragged significantly higher.

Here are my personal stats of the only 3 posts last week just before and just after the update (I got no additional votes between the two screenshots) and my total earnings from them are up over 800%:

before hardfork.png

$0.88

florio (54) · 8 years ago

This hard fork seems great for the little guy, like myself.

$0.00

novaatebatman (55) · 8 years ago

I'm not tempted to vote for myself at all.

But holy shit, @neoxian! If the current totals on my more recent posts are accurate, I'll be making a lot from the several times I posted your shark!

Currently my vote is worth about $0.12. That's really excited! But I'm glad I started practicing reserved upvoting and resteeming several weeks ago. I think this system will benefit significantly from that practice. (I do still upvote plenty, I just don't upvote all willy nilly.)

Also, unrelated to this, but thought you might like to know: I requested my own chatroom. My request was granted. Would you like to join it?

I don't know if it's actually been made yet or not (I was told he'd make it when he returned to his desk later today) because every time I try to get in the chat I keep getting a bad gateway message. Which happened yesterday for a couple hours, too.

Oh, do you have any interests in photography or writing at all? I'll be starting two contests later today (possibly three). The prizes won't be great or anything ($5 SBD each), but you might enjoy participating?

$0.88

florio (54) · 8 years ago

I'd be interested in the photography contest.

$0.00

novaatebatman (55) · 8 years ago

It's a very specific theme, but I have an idea for it that I think will make perfectly accessible for everyone.

Would you like me to tag you when I post the photography contest?

$0.00

florio (54) · 8 years ago

That would be excellent. Thanks!

$0.00

novaatebatman (55) · 8 years ago

No problem at all!

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

I'll be happy to join your chat room.

$0.00

novaatebatman (55) · 8 years ago

Awesome! :D

$0.00

ogoowinner (70) · 8 years ago

@neoxian my most generous friend, I'm tempted. But I voted myself only three times today. Been using it to vote others.

$0.87

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

It's ok, you can do it one more time. I won't tell anyone.

$0.25

ogoowinner (70) · 8 years ago

Lol!

$0.00

aggroed (78) · 8 years ago

Can't wait to see how much the scammer can make now!!!

$0.86

alexrickard86 (63) · 8 years ago

Everyone is just gonna upvote themselves constantly haha I can see it happening!

$0.70

brianphobos (70) · 8 years ago

Pretty darn tempted! After 10 months of grinding and not really getting much if my payouts are any reflection of how things are going to be now then this is how I feel!

$0.61

5 votes

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

have some on the house :D haha

$0.22

imwatsi (67) · 8 years ago

most people are social and generous, so maybe things will be fine after all?

Well said!

$0.43

michaeladamparis (61) · 8 years ago

I have always upvoted my posts and comments... now it's a bit extreme so I may dial down the percentage. I am wondering how the reward pool will adjust to thousands of people upvoting at full strength all of their own stuff? HF20 will bear out the consequences, I'm sure.

$0.38

mk40 (55) · 8 years ago

I am definitely more aware of my voting power than I was before...going to have to be much more selective now. Hopefully others will do the same when the hysteria of being able to give a larger payout with one vote subsides. Definitely done voting on my own comments now!

$0.36

stevescoins (68) · 8 years ago

very, very tempted

I set a 20% vote/50 day policy just so I wouldn't do it; right now, if I upvoted myself, I would be making per day what I wanted to be making per day...so, yes, very tempting ;>

$0.29

uwelang (74) · 8 years ago

Tricky thing isn't it - Temptation and desire vs. community thinking lol. For now I have not voted any of my posts with 100% yet, usually 10% are fair I would say - or 5 or less? Have not checked how the big boys are doing it - maybe some claim the automatic up vote button has changed to default when they post something.

Sometimes you might want a comment to get more visibility somewhere and up vote that then.

I am curious how that will develop - think it is clear what approach is the best for the community. How are you handling this @neoxian?

$0.27

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

I haven't changed too much actually. Like before, sometimes I do upvote my own stuff, but I try to go easy on that, and make sure that I'm rewarding other too. Yes, sometime I'll upvote my own comment for visibility, just did that an hour ago actually.

$0.63

4 votes

uwelang (74) · 8 years ago

Sounds like it should be - thanks dude

$0.00

bloomberg215 (54) · 8 years ago

I am minnow, so i just enjoy the party. Hope it is going to be great for everyone.

$0.25

themanualbot (70) · 8 years ago

Just like the look on your face! I mean your badge lol. :)

$0.19

redris (40) · 8 years ago

Not tempted at all.

$0.17

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

haha anndddd you voted it!

$0.37

redris (40) · 8 years ago

Here you go, you get a vote too

$0.53

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

Like and like a lot is what I say :D

$0.50

redris (40) · 8 years ago

I have to admit I like this liking game

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

He is being ironic, like rain on your wedding day. ;)

btcmillionaire (60) · 8 years ago

haha yeah I got that and enjoyed it!

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

No?

$0.00

playfulfoodie (68) · 8 years ago

I always upvoted my own posts with the automatic option when posting. It gave me about $0.08 in the end. I'm still doing that, though it looks so freaking weird now with over $2! I haven't decided if I will continue yet, because the automatic option doesn't give me a way of reducing the percentage at which I vote (as far as I'm aware).

methiou (37) · 8 years ago

we will see

cryptohustlin (65) · 8 years ago

As somebody who upvoted them selves since 0.0005$ per upvote ecstatic :]

$0.06

cryptohustlin (65) · 8 years ago

Is steemit.chat down for you too? Did you notice polo paused withdrawl / deposit on steem and SBD?

$0.06

moorsie (48) · 8 years ago

Pretty darn hard? But hopefully if i upvote other people they will return the favor

$0.04

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

That strategy made more sense under N^2

$0.00

aaronpake (43) · 8 years ago

Imo voting people i follow is more fun and improves the comunity and users of steemit .So i will keep my votes for the content i most enjoy and reward the ceeators =)

$0.02

modnar (41) · 8 years ago

I think voting yourself is kinda lame, but I see how many would be tempted.

$0.00

gmuxx (67) · 8 years ago

Not at all, limited to 10 full power, not worth it. I'd rather help and support others

$0.00

steevc (73) · 8 years ago

Well I have been before, but now it's worth a lot more. I'm going to have to reconsider my strategy

$0.00

zaragast (67) · 8 years ago

Iper tempted, beyond the limit of knowledge

$0.00

nepd (66) · 8 years ago

It's difficult, but if we all isolate ourselves, eventually this just won't work. We have to keep reaching out to others, encouraging them and building up this platform.

$0.00

alol (71) · 8 years ago

Time for get big payout...

$0.00

lennstar (66) · 8 years ago

I always vote on my posts. Why not? If I would not think they are worth my vote I would not write them.
Also it feels good.

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

$0.65

6 votes

topdog (53) · 8 years ago (edited)

@neoxian, I am a newbie, just posted my intro today. I am a bit naive and yet to check out the maize of steemit terminology and the way it works. but what ever little knowledge I have, I believe I will Not be voting for myself. It is like 'liking' my own post in FB. I know it's about money. But I feel it is not right...let me see how long I can resist, not that I have anything great in my wallet now. when the wallet fattens let me see what wins. My mind or my heart :)

$0.00

barvon (66) · 8 years ago

Project HF 19 goes well ..
Sound for everyone ride with great power ...
I vote on my own posts and also posts others.
I will share the upvote to other people's posts.

$0.00

piercetheveil (48) · 8 years ago

I feel that this is the answer to countering the shit posts, but also making steemians who curate the money they are used to.

Good for me and you because we are constant quality posters.

Damn it, now im tempted again.. LOL thanks a lot @neoxian.

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

You're welcome, that's what I'm here for: the little red devil on your shoulder.

$0.07

tamsguitar (67) · 8 years ago

this is my chance to give back what I have got. Without the support of some generous whales I couldn't have earned what i earned today. I am a minnow but with somewhat increased power so I would like to get the newbies started at least for the first week. thus I plan to vote my self last.

$0.00

abh12345 (76) · 8 years ago (edited)

Question is, can I get more than my own vote by commenting and voting on another blog? If answer equals maybe, then I'll be going for that approach (still)

$0.00

jodipamungkas (73) · 8 years ago

good news @neoxian

$0.00

runridefly (72) · 8 years ago

@neoxian, I might not upvote my next post today. This is too much

$0.00

acehpost (35) · 8 years ago

exuse sir plz i need support
how i can to deep know about steemit :xD

#needsupport

$0.00

cryptohazard (63) · 8 years ago

I just don't see the point. By default I upvote my posts, but not my comments. This is not the essence of my time here.

$0.00

siersod (60) · 8 years ago

I have not used almost my vote for the fear of inflation or devaluation that could generate this disproportionate increase

$0.00

freebornsociety (61) · 8 years ago

I'm voting my comments that have votes so that the voter can have some curation rewards,...

$0.00

cosmicfontaint (42) · 8 years ago (edited)

If i was a big player may be i would be pretty darn tempted. But as far as i am not here just for money and not a big fish i don't even think about it. I even haven't thought about that but what i've noticed is that my upvotes generate more profit for the authors and it gives me a lot of positive emotions.

Now, let's pay attention to bounce rate and average time spent of steemit. It would quite interesting. Let me know if you have access to such realtime data or may be you can suggest where to get it.

Alexa.com and similarweb.com shows only delayed and estimate data.

$0.00

bangjal (48) · 8 years ago

Great post, I think this is amazing information, keep on sharing :)

Follow me @bangjal and add your voice in my post, because your voice I really need to support me keep giving the best post :)

$0.00

acassity (61) · 8 years ago

I am not to tempted I turned my voting power down to 10% after I realized 100% equals 1.80 at 90% power.

$0.00

hanshotfirst (76) · 8 years ago

It is going to take a lot of self discipline by as many people as possible. If everyone self votes, the platform will crumble. We need to keep rewarding content that will bring people here. It's true a person can get small immediate gratification now, but if we can keep encouraging good content, we will be far better off in the future.

$0.00

arjane (59) · 8 years ago

I did lol

$0.00

florio (54) · 8 years ago

Already tried it. So I guess Extremely Tempted.

$0.00

dreemit (71) · 8 years ago

I was sitting here thinking who I could ask some questions of and then 'ding ding' neoxian is smart! I will ask him! lol. Okay, so here goes- For the first time I watched my voting power drop through the floor (and actually I'm not touching the vote button until my power is at least most of the way back, but I will leave this post up in my browser along with some others I have waiting so I can hit it

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

Voting was changed so that a standard vote is four times stronger but uses four times the power as well. You would vote at 25% to simulate the full strength of before.

$0.00

dreemit (71) · 8 years ago

I was sitting here thinking "who can I ask?" and then it occurred to me "neoxian is a witness, and he's smart" lol. So here's the thing, my voting power dropped through the floor and I'm currently waiting for it to get back up there (I will add this post to the others in my browser that I'm going to vote on when my power comes back) what I want to know is, how many posts can I vote on at 100% per day without killing my voting power? If I know that, then I can figure out percentage breakdowns etc.

$0.00

neoxian (70) · 8 years ago

You can vote ten times per day. Vote at 25% to simulate how things were before.

$0.00