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https://steemit.com/hive-175254/@crypto.piotr/enough-is-enough-let-s-all-step-back-and-figure-out-what-can-be-done-to-stop-losing-steem-users

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

I'm looking for the "vegan wars" post, but I remember finding it after reading and resteeming this,

And today I came across an awful situation, where a person I recognize and I've learned to value has been downvoted for the most ridiculous reason ever, which you could put in one simple statement:
I FLAGGED YOU, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT DOWNVOTE OTHERS!

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago (edited)

Transisto absolutely has anti social tendencies. I think the comment from Neil sums it up. There are some other revealing comments in that thread from others, thanks for sharing. I'm not aware of him running a witness btw.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

No problem.

https://steemit.com/bloom/@chrispreilly/shut-up-bloom-argued

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Here's another post about downvote harassment over "opinions" (not-"abuse"),

Steemit user "bloom" is a climate alarmist. He has down voted posts that point out that people like him are uninformed sheep.

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago

Yes, downvoting does occur over disagreements and bloom is a common actor using that approach. Also not a witness though.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Waytruthlight quit posting two years ago because they were getting unfairly downvoted. Now they just downvote other people out of spite.

This is an awesome model.

Downvote people so they stop posting and just stay mad for two years downvoting random accounts so they get mad and stop posting and just stay mad for two years downvoting random accounts so they get mad and stop posting...

This BOOSTS THE REWARD POOL which gets scooped into the hands of the TOP EARNERS.

It's a WIN-WIN!!!!

nOW, how do we onboard new users..?
Oh, yes, tell the newbz some evil people are posting nasty stuff on steemit and they need to open an account so they can DOWNVOTE them!!!

100 million new steemians practically overnight!

https://steemit.com/hive-175254/@crypto.piotr/q4uy8q#@crypto.piotr/q4uy8q

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

Dear @ocdb, @curangel

Would you mind sharing with me why this post has been downvoted by your accounts? I would really like to know. Don't you agree with my mature and polite way of describing the problem, which many users are currently facing?

We've common friends and at least 2 @curangel curators are close to me and I've learned to respect your own projects already long time ago. Is destroying our little community on steem (which I'm trying to promote) your current goal ? Did us talking about downvote abuse somehow upset you? I really would like to know.

Yours, Piotr

acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

Not sure what the discussion is here but I'm guessing pitor was downvoted by curangel and ocdb was trailing them.

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2 votes

logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

That sounds like a reasonable hypothesis.

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago

I have personally never been impressed by ocdb's approach and i have never even seen curangel before. I don't who is involved with ocdb other than acidyo. OCD do operate a witness on hive and I agree that their approach is concerning regarding downvotes. Their defence would probably be that downvoting is an inherent part of the blockchain and voting process - so get used to it.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

"downvoting is an inherent part of the blockchain".

So, basically an "appeal to ignorance" (false premise/bald assertion).

Marky's "blacklists" actually made downvoting obsolete.

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago

It's not really a false premise, in that downvoting IS an inherent part of the blockchain that is intended to allow stakeholders to remove payouts for their own reasons. If they make bad decisions then they have to face the consequences, which might be a loss of community support, damage to their investment and the community or even being forked out totally (which shall henceforth be known as a justin fork ;) )
I personally am only likely to use downvoting for bot use or really malicious activity - I rarely use them now.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

...downvoting IS an inherent part of the blockchain...

This statement is provably false.

Downvoting CAN be removed from the code (THEREFORE) it is NOT "inherent".

And even the argument that downvoting is "necessary" is not and should not be treated as some sort of "foregone conclusion".

The blockchain itself could screen all content for 85% similar posts and comments and block them all.

If your concern is about people posting controversial (or illegal) images, the blockchain itself could screen out all image files, and the front-ends could simply display images from 3rd party (free image hosting) links.

If your concern is about people posting hateful messages and or "dangerous" lies and "conspiracy theories", then set the blockchain to automatically screen-out all logical fallacies and mean words and expletives.

(IFF) you require vigilantes to police your platform (THEN) you need to FIX the platform "in CODE".

Can you imagine a game, (like an MMORPG) where, instead of code fixes and updates to the rules and mechanics of the game, the devs just gave every player the ability to silence and or ban other players for "breaking the rules"?

Who would want to play a game like that?

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago

by 'inherent', i meant 'hardwired' and 'by design' - sure it can be removed - but i was speaking in the context of 'guidelines' for how it is intended to be used, rather than whether it should be removed altogether or not.

I agree that downvoting could be removed, but having thought about this quite a lot over the years and listened to all sides, I think that it serves a valid purpose. It sure could be removed though and I am not against experimenting with that.

If your concern is about people posting controversial (or illegal) images, the blockchain itself could screen out all image files, and the front-ends could simply display images from 3rd party (free image hosting) links.

As long as images are visible, there is a risk factor - regardless of where they are hosted.

The main reason for downvoting, besides anti-spam, is that people can manually decide that posts do not demonstrate 'proof of brain' and can prevent vote exploitation. There is a gap in perception relating to the role of proof of brain, which I covered in a recent post. I agree that some aspects of the anti spam processing could be automated and probably should be.

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logiczombie (57) · 5 years ago

As long as images are visible, there is a risk factor - regardless of where they are hosted.

But no legal liability.

For example, Microsoft's search engine "Bing" displays (but does not host) illegal images (I listened to a news report about this recently) and Microsoft is NOT legally liable for displaying those illegal images.

ura-soul (75) · 5 years ago

Different jurisdictions treat the situation differently and there is a move currently to change the law in the US to make social network publishers liable for everything. In any case, the issue for me is as much about PR as it is for liability. It takes very little for negative PR to become extreme. It would only take, say, Facebook to post a few illegal porn pics to the blockchain, linked from another site and to then spread negative news stories on how Steem/hive is a place for abusers and that would be the narrative that millions would hold on to. It happened to minds.com (accused of being right wing extremists).

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https://peakd.com/news/@valued-customer/censoring-hive-it-s-happening-right-now

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

From my conversations (as difficult to piece together as they actually are due to the total censorship of both his and my replies to each other) with @joe.public, he replied to all of Bernie's bot spam to discourage it.

When Bernie quit spamming, @joe.public ended up on the #irredeemables list, and Bernie walked away. The #irredeemable's list only exists because Bernie spammed tens of thousands of pics of their poop in a toilet and @fulltimegeek responded with his own massive spam attack. The #irredeemables list was created to silence @fulltimegeek, and Bernie walked.

There is 0 censorship resistance to a platform in which one person arbitrarily controls a censorship vehicle like #irredeemables list, or that power isn't effected solely through a public community vote, rather than arbitrarily by any individual or group - but particularly absent public information at all, as it is currently undertaken.

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