The coolest thing about the blockchain is that whatever you put on it, stays there immutably. In other words, you can't get back what you said, if you really said it.
And if you want to prove that something happened, well, a blockchain-based proof will always be 100% trustable.
With this small, but necessary introduction, let's get to work.
Does Steem.Supply Mines With Your Browser?
The short answer: yes. I wrote about that more than two months ago, and it's in the blockchain:
JSECoin - Mining Crypto Currencies In (or With) Your Browser
It's basically a presentation of a newly launched coin, called JSEcoin, which tries an in-browser mining approach. If you don't want to read the whole post (and by looking at how fast people jump to conclusions these days, I infer you don't) here's the most relevant part to our topic:
I write about cryptocurrencies daily here, sometimes 2-3 articles per day related only to new coins, interesting ICOs or other relevant blockchain projects. I found JSEcoin interesting enough to give it a try. And I publicly and openly announced it.
Even more, JSEcoin has a disclosure layer showing up for each site, in the footer. It looks like this:
So there was not only a written announcement about me experimenting with this new currency on steem.supply, but also a full graphical disclosure.
Why do I insist so much on this?
Well, because recently, 2 posts in the Steemit ecosystem exploded with accusations that "I hijack people's processors for my own profit". Interestingly enough, both posts have each more than $60 in payouts. Nice. Anyways...
Here are the links to the posts:
- https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@themarkymark/ufc-fight-pass-caught-secretly-mining-cryptocurrency-on-their-paid-service
- https://steemit.com/steem/@julienbh/steem-supply-is-mining-using-your-browser
The accusations are that I do this "secretly", in a "sneaking", "unethical" way.
Now, back to our intro: did I announce this publicly? Yes, it's in the blockchain. Is there a full disclosure about this? Yes. Go check it out, but try to have the ad-blocker disabled. An ad-blocker kinda defeats the purpose of letting announcements like this passing through.
So it's public and fully disclosed. And it's more than 2 months old. It's immutably stored in the blockchain.
Then what are we talking about here?
P.S. And to all of you who, carried away with the need to find an escape goat, called me "thief, fuck, cunt" and a few other names: if you want to talk to me, you'd better stop yelling at that mirror and turn around.
I'm right here.
I'm a serial entrepreneur, blogger and ultrarunner. You can find me mainly on my blog at Dragos Roua where I write about productivity, business, relationships and running. Here on Steemit you may stay updated by following me @dragosroua.
https://steemit.com/~witnesses
If you're new to Steemit, you may find these articles relevant (that's also part of my witness activity to support new members of the platform):
I appreciate you mentioned this openly in a post, but it needs to be clear on your site. Visitors are not expected to read a post from 2 months ago to know you are running a coin miner on the site.
The "disclosure" disappears after like 1-2 seconds, far sooner than most people take to reach the bottom of the page.
Something like this should be opt-in not an opt-out if you can find the button before it fades away. UFC removed this from their site within hours of it being discovered for a reason. The only reason that "disclosure" fades, is so no one sees it and opt's out.
It doesn't matter how profitable it is, it is not a cool thing to do.
I don't really know you, so I never called you any names or called you anything for that matter. I just said I thought there should be more transparency, especially of witnesses. I'm sorry if my post caused that to happen. My post wasn't a hatchet job, I was mainly focused on UFC doing it to paid subscribers with a two-line blurb that a well known Steem site run by a witness is doing it.
I respect your explanation and I think more of you that you did disclose this somewhere prior, but I still don't agree with it and to me, it is like leaving a note for your mother under your mattress that you borrowed $30. It should be clear on the site for your visitors, not in some 'disclosure' that disappears almost immediately thus hiding the disclosure and opt-out functionality.
PS: I think you mean scapegoat, not escape goat. That made me chuckle.
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You're still missing the point.
Do I have to write a note on my website every time somebody discovers sliced bread? Umm, sorry, browser mining. It was there for more than 2 months. Not 2 days, not 2 weeks. 2 months. Do I really have to pat you on the back every time I change something on the site? Do I have to do this with each visitor hundreds of time?
Or it's your responsibility to stay informed? Even more, if you think there's something going on, wouldn't be more ethically correct to first contact me and get information from the source, rather than inferring that I'm stealing $30 from my mom (that was weird, dude)?
I'm asking this question again: do you know what you're talking about? Did you study the JSEcoin mining algorithm and can certify that it steals processing power in a sneaky way? Or are you just putting together the word "mining" with the word "browser" and suddenly get scared and "sheriffy", just like that?
P.S. You're right, it's scapegoat but I really prefer "escape goat". It has a Spanish flavor in it. Glad something made you chuckle after all.
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No, but if you are going to use a machine to mine coins you should. Every instance this has come up for any other site, the response has been the same. People hate it, they think it is unethical and it should be opt-in.
It is not my job to search the internet before using a site to find out if they are hijacking my CPU to mine coins.
No, not really, it was pretty black and white what was going on, you were using a coin miner. It's not something that needs to be discussed if it is happening or not happening. It is what it is, no discussion would change changed that. The point about your mom (and no this isn't a mom joke, but I have lots of those) is saying you did something and then it being hidden somewhere (yes I know, immutable public blockchain) that you did it is not acceptable for visitors of a website that don't even know who the hell you are much less you wrote a post almost 3 months ago.
I don't see how we will get anywhere discussing this further. I think we just disagree which is perfectly fine.
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And what I find more disturbing is that even when confronted with this knowledge about how other legit businesses deal with it, ie, removing the miner, he doesn't align himself with integrity and transparency, as the other companies have done. This is the thing which is surprising.
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FWIW I didn't start the discussion, you did. But I agree, it doesn't go anywhere.
We can safely live in a world in which we can gently disagree with each other. No need for drama or name calling.
But in my defense, I was 100% open about this all the time and I didn't "hijack" anyone's power. Not more than a poorly designed website or Wordpress plugin can do, that is. And I'm helping a new startup through its launch phase and I support a new type of blockchain, etc. It wasn't in any way "sneaky".
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I think this is the most important thing, moving forward. It can appear scamy because it's been used covertly elsewhere, so extra diligence is required if you're going to use it. At this early stage of the technology I think you have to go beyond the minimum. I think that's the best long term business strategy.
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Well, can you do that explicitly at least until JSEcoin fixes their notificatuon function? I think you cannot be free from this argument without doing something like that. JSEcoin claimes their script wont affect user experience but there are bug reports that someone see 100% cpu usage with that. My laptop got extremely slow as well when I open steem.supply site.
From FAQ
Is there any specific legalese we need to put on our site?
This is new technology, we only launched publicly last week, so we haven’t had any legal issues or guidance to contend with. The privacy notice is displayed by default. Users also have the option to opt-out across the entire network. I think if you want to be proactive it wouldn’t hurt to put something in your own terms such as “MySite.com uses background cryptocurrency mining. To opt-out please visit https://jsecoin.com/privacy/“.
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Will include a foot-note in the next steem.supply update.
Also contacted them about improving the notification banner functionality: https://jsecoin.com/forums/topic/opt-in-opt-out-features-for-the-privacy-banner/#post-1547
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion.
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If it involves using their CPU to mine, yes
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If it involves a minor modification of the UI, by which I'm able to better profile your UI, then I'm still required to ask for your permission?
Where do you draw that line?
Aren't UI modifications made to increase engagement / profit?
I'm arguing for the sake of arguing right now. BTW: when was the last time you read Steemit Terms of Service?
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It's up to you to figure out where to draw the line. I think this outcry could be summarized as the response to you drawing the line too far toward not not notifying.
I read the ToS every now and again in detail, this kind of thing is one my interests, especially regarding privacy. Why do you mention it?
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No, it's not. Everybody has a different idea about where that line should be drawn. Standards are created by finding the "average" or an accepted consensus.
This thing is very new and there is no consensus about it because there isn't enough history to build a consensus upon. And the standard reaction to something new, not yet standardized, is fear. This outcry is because people are fearing I'm stealing from them. When they don't understand something, they just assume the worse.
It doesn't need to be that way, but way too many of us are still prisoners to the limbic brain, reacting to things and not acting towards things. It's still the fear that drives a lot of people in this world, and this outburst is probably the best proof of it.
As for Steemit ToS, I asked because I can just squeeze a line in the steem.supply ToS (when I'll add that section) and you will never see it, but I will be covered. If I really want to be a bad guy.
I'm tired of this.
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I'll leave you do it then, just throwing my opinion into the ring here.
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As for the notification not showing out at all or not showing out properly, here's their response this morning:
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You just won my Witness vote @themarkymark.
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Hi everyone, I'm one of the developers at JSEcoin and I just wanted to comment without hijacking the thread if possible. So the privacy notice with opt-out link stays for 10 seconds before it fades out and you don't have to scroll to the bottom of the screen to see it as it's placed automatically at the bottom of your current view. There is a ten second delay but this coincides with the delay placed on the mining itself to ensure it doesn't affect page load speed times.
Browser based mining has got a bad reputation because some companies tried (are trying) to do hidden mining without users knowing. We really are trying to be as transparent as possible while still making this system work. An opt-in system wouldn't work for all the same reasons that opt-in doesn't work for online advertising. On that note it's worth mentioning that the script only uses excess CPU and is less resource intensive than an auto-loading video advertisement.
I understand that it's new technology and most people have a negative preconception of cryptocurrency mining.
Certainly the privacy notice is our responsibility and not the publishers so any negative comments there should be directed at us and we will take them into account. Before anyone eats me alive though I would just ask you take a quick look at our site or whitepaper to get a good understanding of the platform and what we are trying to do do.
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I personally think that browser mining could be a great replacement for advertising if done well. I read not too long ago that The Pirate Bay was running a miner too. The reaction here is not a million miles from that.
The real question is not whether it's permissible, it's really cool, and there's no legal requirement to publicize usage (yet, see below), but whether or not it's done ethically. I have to side with most people and say that they way you did it was not ethical.
The one thing you said above but did not address is that it's for your profit. It certainly is. I see the real issue in people's minds here is that it's a reversal of miner beneficiary, and it's follows the pattern of malware. It will have a negative impact on computer performance for the user, though they may not notice. You are requiring them to pay for access to your website in a way that is not totally up front.
The notice needs to be loud and clear. For example, like the European cookies notices, it needs to be always visible until intentionally dismissed. This insures to a basic level that it is read and noticed.
The best way to run an experiment like this is to allow user to opt in to the service in someway. It could be a "mine wall", similar to a pay wall, that has a full screen notice blocking entry unless you accept the terms, which allow mining. Or it could be a premium version of the site which uses the miner. Either way if I were you I'd be less defensive about it and admit you dropped the ball slightly, especially since it's now a business for you.
Incidentally I would expect a ruling from state, international and federal bodies on this kind of thing too if it becomes popular, perhaps a ban. So it might be wise to stay 100% above board.
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Thanks for your input. I didn't drop any ball but I appreciate how everybody is an expert over night. Where were you 2 months ago when I stated loud and clear that I'm going to test that?
I'm not defensive. I have nothing to defend.
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I consider myself relatively expert, it didn't happen between yesterday and today. The personal jibe is not appreciated.
I'm not talking about whether or not you announced it in a post, but whether or not it is obvious to the visitors of your site, who may not have read that notice.
There's a reason why businesses are required by law to display certain notices prominently, sometimes in store if they have bricks and mortar stores, or on their online stores. It's because not every customer has taken the time to review every press release they've made recently for information that may be relevant to their custom.
Someone using your website essentially implicitly enters into a business agreement with you to lease their CPU power for access to your service. Most people want to explicitly make agreements, so this is the problem.
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So, if I dare to question your expertise over a comment, you frown. But how am I suppose to feel when I'm called thief, fuck, cunt and so on?
And I think this may be the fourth time I'm writing this today, that I'm planning to put some sort of a notice on steem.supply on the next update.
Belive it or not, although very vocal, people who are not agreeing with how things are right now are still a minority. Things were ok for like 2 months, then suddenly this minority screams that whoever using a miner script is a villain, or a crook.
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When did you get the consent of your users to mine cryptocurrency using their browser? I have your web page open in a browser with no ad blocks, there is no pop up or any kind of disclaimer saying that you monetize with cryptocurrency.
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I mean, that's dramatically put, but for what it's worth I didn't call you any of those things and I'm sorry you were.
Usually the negative is louder than the positive, perhaps you can just ignore this ruckus. I wanted to challenge you to be more ethical and to examine whether you set things up ethically. I'm not convinced you really care about that so I suppose I have my answer.
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Man, I wrote about that thing 2 months ago! I publicly stated this 2 months ago! You see this today and then you say I don't care about ethics?
There isn't yet any accepted standard about this and people are moving in droves, pushed by fear, in a direction which is usually worse than the current situation. Suddenly, there's over-standardization. People are forgetting what steem.supply is about and they only think about this mining thing. It's like they want to replace steem.supply with a huge banner saying: "I'm mining coins as a villain that I am, you fuckups! I want your CPU cycles as a villain that I am".
It's ridiculous...
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I'm a follower of yours @dragosroua and enjoy reading your content.
This is a complicated situation. There's a lot of hypocrisy I see on this site around income streams. Everyone makes a buck somewhere, some are more honest than others with their methods. Some would like to seem extremely honest and selfless but perhaps their internal focus is not so kosher. We're humans and it's hardwired into most of us, I'm always surprised when people forget that and become upset...
To put this situation as simply as possible from my perspective, hopefully it helps rather than pours fuel on the fire.
I don't think it should be seen as a problem that you setup a way to make extra income and you did the right thing in making the announcement.
However, if you don't want anyone to call you out on things then it's up to you to mitigate that. You're in tech so I'm sure you're used to QA (and how tedious that can sometimes be) but it also exists for not only bugs but also to catch things like that.
Information needs to be apparent at all times, at source, not just an article from the past on Steemit (I know they're connected but still). Therefore, the people who are saying that should have happened, are right. Or at least they represent a percentage of people who are willing to kick up a stink if they're not satisfied. It's your responsibility to ensure users are aware of whatever you are doing, if you'd like to seem transparent that is. Now you already have this in place with the notification from JSEcoin, which is cool, but you need to test to make sure it's sufficient. It's the solution, I'm not saying it's one many or anyone would take time to ensure either...
When I say need, you don't NEED to. It's not a requirement, no one will lock you up. But you will have to weather the onslaught of potential hate in these situations and provide answers on the backfoot. By then, people can develop strong opinions that could have been halted at source. And this theory is correct anywhere, things should be tested rigorously, checked, etc or we run the risk of someone getting the wrong impression.
I hope that seemed more insightful than critical!
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Thanks, appreciate the insight. I already put in place a one time popup notification and there is also a permanent notice at the bottom of the page. I would have done this anyway (and I told to some of the people asking if I would do this), if I wouldn't spend so much time answering to the comments (most of the time coming from people not knowing what they are talking about). I'm not hiding anything, I'm always open about what I do, so putting that notice wouldn't have been a problem anyway.
With that being said, let's put this behind.
Steem on!
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Perfectly explained! People should learn and inform much better before accusing someone else...
I remember your post announcing the introduction of JSEcoin banner in your app. Service...
Fully supporting you.
Have a nice day!
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Thank you for your support, really appreciate it! :)
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A single mention in a post 2 months ago, and a small auto hiding footer really aren't acceptable disclosure imho.
This mental image made up for it tho, thx for the giggle at least. I'm just gonna back away and agree to disagree about this.
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This is my main point.
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I hear you and I do remember reading it about it on one of your posts and I have also seen it on the bottom of the page.
Might want to add a opt in or opt out though.
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Thanks for the suggestion, it seems to be quite common. I will pass this through to JSEcoin people.
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Are you mining monero? :)
Good job. I like it and will gladly give you some of my CPU power.
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Neah, JSE, but I like how you think. Thanks :)
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Now I learned something :D Ofc there is special coin just for that.
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:))
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Im working in web agency and we run some "passive income" websites with healthy traffic.
Can I get back to you in few months and ask more about this? How profitable it is and stuff like that?
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Yes, absolutely. It's still at a very early stage, just numbers in a ledger, but if it takes off, it could be huge.
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Hi @dragosroua - I first want to say that I appreciate your contributions to Steem and you were one of the first people I followed and supported as witness when i first joined the platform.
I see both sides of this "discussion". On one hand I think that using cryptocurrencies as a new way to monetize websites is a great concept (note that I say concept since it's not mature enough for me to evaluate how it will go in practice).
I think that it's something the Steem community should be especially supportive of researching and experimenting with. I, for one, would welcome the option to choose using my computing power to mine a currency to support the content I like to consume rather than seeing ads or paying a subscription fee.
On the other hand, recently there have been numerous, high-profile cases of popular sites using cryptocurrency miners in unethical and irresponsible manners. Unfortunately, like with all things, a few bad actors can ruin things and make things more difficult for everyone else.
Because of this, people like you who are experimenting with new ways of monetization will need to go above and beyond what probably should be necessary to educate users about these new ideas.
I think if similar information to what you shared above was displayed clearly and obviously on steem.supply (similar to how some sites have big clear notifications about cookies that stay until dismissed) then instead of this negative, knee-jerk reaction you might have a rather positive response.
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Thank you for your support. I'm planning to add something on the next steem.supply update (it might be the third time I'm writing this in a comment today).
As for the knee-jerk reaction, I'm taking responsibility for my own deeds and words. Some people may need to practice that too.
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Not having an opt-in form, with explicit consent for the visitors to steem.supply and people not understanding that their cpu power is being used without their knowledge and permission is something I am surprised you don't see the importance of. I rarely flag anything these days, but this lack of transparency from a witness, is pretty disturbing. This is a slipperly slope you have just entered, and to be honest, I am pretty shocked.
We don't want outsiders to connect Steem with coin mining on innocent people's browsers without their knowledge, but this is what is currently happening. Your lack of concern about the issues that markymark has raised is the most troubling part of this.
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I am shocked you don't see the opt-in / opt-out notification. It's at the bottom of the page and you can opt-out network-wide.
I also stated in many places that I'm actively communicating these issues with the coin developer. As for who's hijacking CPU, maybe this performance test will shed a little light about what amount of CPU power is actually used in this process (none of the accusers was actually able to show that) and who's actually squeezing more.
There's definitely a slippery slope here, but I'm not walking on it.
Edit: haha, I just saw you flagged me, this made my day :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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having one at the bottom of the page is not exactly ideal.
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and that's exactly why am I the villain, right? Like I could control this (not the coin producer) and I didn't...
Please, pretty please, with sugar on top, please keep saving Steemit from bad guys like me. I'm having the laugh of the day. :))))))
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I just visited your site. It's not clear, and what i meant by an 'opt-in' form, i mean a check box, where you have to consciously say "yes, I will give my cpu power so you can mine from this site"
very few people even understand, and that banner at the bottom is small, and not even clear in what it is doing.
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Can you see this as well:
https://jsecoin.com/forums/topic/opt-in-opt-out-features-for-the-privacy-banner/#post-1547
It was posted a few hours ago, when I got this type of feedback from many people. Anything else I should do? Other than keep being the villain so you can keep flagging me? Pleeeeeeease :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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all you would need to do is to create a box, that all visitors have to go to before entering the site. People can opt-in there, as it is spelled out exactly what you are doing. I am surprised that you would not do this in order to be fully transparent. That's what i am shocked by more than anything else.
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Thanks for your opinion, appreciate your input.
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I don't see you as a villian, not at all.
I see you as a person who would put his own profits over everything else.
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And may ask you why is that?
Because suddenly you heard about mining in browser and you take for granted some unverified claims about me doing it for a profit? Do you even understand what is going on here? That this coin was started less than 3 months ago, that it's a startup, that it is publicly sharing their profit and balance expenses (a thing that I never saw on Steemit, btw) and that it may never be properly launched? That this startup is pretty much like Steemit was a year ago?
Do you realize that I've been talking about this thing for over 2 months ago but you only heard of it today?
Do you run a witness node? Do you run a content node? Do you pay for hosting? Do you spend hours coding apps that you give away for free? Do you make the core of your apps available as Open Source?
Do you even realize how many people are still calling Steemit a ponzi scheme?
And if you realize all of this, you're still thinking that I'm interested only in my own profit?
If your answer is "yes" then this is the most enlightening moment of the year for me. Thank you.
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I personaly think that web miners "stealing" some of my cpu cycles are less annoying than adds that stalks me. But thats only my personal opinion!
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Thanks for your comment :) Good to know, it makes the case of browser mining more appealing than the one of ads.
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I guess they are just jealous of the great work you are doing for this community.
I didn't know that on the blockchain everything that you say can't be changed.
Keep it up!!! Haters gonna hate.
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Thanks for your support, appreciate it! And yes, after a 7 days window in which you can edit/ delete your post on the Steem blockchain, it can't be modified anymore. Even during this 7 days period, the root post will stay on the blockchain unchanged and each modification will create a copy of it.
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Hi @dragosroua, you and @themarkymark were two of the first people that I encountered on Steemit. I have the utmost respect for the work that you do here and outside of this community, so it is difficult when there are opposing opinions about what is the 'right' or 'wrong' thing to do here. I try to tell people that Jedi and Seth are not 'good' or 'evil', but merely opposing forces required to keep the balance in the universe. I am just happy that there is an open and honest discussion for everyone to see, and similar to other cases where certain things have been implied or fingers pointed at specific users. In most instances I have been able to see both sides of the story and therefore able to come to my own conclusions - which is that you two are still both on my witness vote list (but I hope that doesn't offend either of you)...
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I'm not offended in any way, by anything. I just state facts here, not emotions.
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Thanks for clarifying @dragosroua - hope it will calm the discussion. Appreciate this post and the ones calling you bad words have not got a proper education maybe - was that in chats or is it on the blockchain :-)?
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It's in the blockchain, the first post from the two had some nice creative ways to call me:
... and so on
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Thanks for the clarification.
I must admit that I was concerned and did not do any research to find out the truth.
Are you active on discord?
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Hi, nope, not active there.
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I'll be honest, I totally missed this information, yet I don't fucking care either, you're an amazing witness, steem.supply is an amazing site that I also use frequently and my CPUs are okay with that, too.
So overall, in my view, you absolutely deserve it-
While I personally go for CoinHive and Monero, as they are already proven and established, I gave a try to JSECoin too, with some personal usage.
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Thanks for your support, appreciated it!
Although I'm not sure what I deserve, though, lol :) The heat from this discussion, or the benefits from mining - which are completely hypothetical at this point?
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Oh yes, sorry, it was ambiguous, I meant that you deserve the extra income you get through mining.
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Which is zero at this point, but I appreciate your support :)
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I don't understand something, then.
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It's an experimental coin, launched 2 months ago. I'm literally experimenting with it. It may go up or it may go down but at this point JSEcoin is not trading on any exchange, there is no clear supply, etc. They are working at the blockchain and they will release the real, tradeable coins once this is done, in a few months. Until then, they're working with people "mining" like me to adjust the algorithms, to implement new features, etc. There is a hypothetical value of the coin, but nobody knows exactly what it is, since there is no market in which the price can be discovered by supply and demand. I'm what you call an "early early adopter".
That's why I was baffled at sentences like: "you're hijacking CPU power for your own profit". There is no profit yet and I don't know if it will ever be. But huh, I'm such a ruthless capitalist, sucking the blood of good, naive Steemians...
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Oh, okay, it's much clearer now! Thanks, it's an interesting project anyway so I already registered and started checking it out.
Though I still don't understand something: the mining is available, but if there are no exchanges yet, then what are we verifying with mining?
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We are verifying a hashing algorithm. By the way, a crypto currency can exist without exchanges. I don't think Bitcoin had any exchange in the first 2 years.
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Thanks for this clarification. You still have my vote. Steem.supply is a very useful tool. Will wait for the update.
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hey, did you go to steemfest? i did not see you. but i did look for you.
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Nope, announced I can't, job emergencies. Hope you had a nice time :)
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must have missed that with all the travelling. you were missed. i would have loved to have chatted to you. hope things are getting better your side. yeah it was great.
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Glad you had a great time and I hope there will be more opportunities to catch up. Things are ok now, back to normal.
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I think it's very clever that you are able to do that. People are getting a free service from you, and a very good one at that! You've always been open and honest about whatever you've been doing, so keep going as you are.
Like you say, people don't read.
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Thanks for your support, appreciate it!
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I can see both sides to this!
On one hand I would never have thought it would be a good idea to do this without making it very clear on the site itself, on the other hand though, I acknowledge that we come from different cultural backgrounds, and that perhaps this action is not really the product of an unethical moral position.
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Go ahead @dragosroua you are doing excellent in the steemit community.
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Thank you, appreciate your support!
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you need to ask visitors on your website for confirmation. else it's, indeed, stealing of resources. which should be illegal in most countries.
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I tried the site http://steem.supply/ and as soon as I open it, my AntiVirus reports a virus in the site, and disinfects it by deleting the file.
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Thanks for the report. There are a few edge cases when an outdated virus database reports these scripts as trojans. I reported a similar case to JSEcoin on this thread and they are actively pursuing the matter with that specific antivirus company.
If you could say what antivirus you have, I'll forward this to them. Alternatively, you can post on that forum yourself, whatever suits you.
Steem on!
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I use Kaspersky.
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Thank you.
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Which you should :)
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loved the transparency :)
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