What Does Quality Engagement Look Like?

in steemit •  6 years ago  (edited)





Image source—Giphy

I've been following a few recent posts regarding engagement on Steemit. I thought I would further the discussion here.

As some will know, @abh12345 hosts the weekly Curation and Engagement Leagues challenge. Prize money (donated generously by the folks behind @curie) is awarded to the top engagers using various metrics. Among them are the total number of comments, the number of second level replies, and the total amount of character length.

Other things, like the number of posts, witness votes, the number of upvotes, and the number of accounts upvoted people have produced in a week round out the metrics, with a small penalty given for self-upvotes. Somehow, these metrics are used in an unknown but no doubt highly technical mathematical equation to determine total number of points. The leaguer with the highest number of points wins.

Anyone and everyone are welcome to participate, and can sign up to join on the weekly results list posted Sundays. The latest one can be found by clicking here.


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On a related post published yesterday, @abh12345 showed the results of the Top 100 highest engagers on Steemit since the beginning of the year. The list is essentially driven and ordered by the accumulative amount of characters, or CL. In the comment section, there broke out a discussion about comment and engagement quality, and calling into question whether or not the way the engagement league rewarded its participants even accounted for quality.

My name is at the top of that list, with a smidge over 3.43 million CL. My total comments at the time of data gathering were 5,066 for an average CL per comment of 677. That amount puts me above the average of CL per comment. I do not have the highest average of CL, by the way.


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I've mentioned this so you all will know I have a dog in the fight. Whether or not the engagement league is measuring quality matters to me. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to quantify quality on comments, just as it doesn't exist to determine if posts hold to some standard. Even so, I feel like I should do the best I can to add value to posts I comment on. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time and others who happen to read what I wrote. There's better things to do than pad stats for league placement, prize money or not.

This is not about me, however. I don't need affirmation. I know what I do day in and day out. And so does everyone else out there commenting and trying to keep this STEEM platform social and community driven. This discussion, however, is worth having, and extending.

Just like posts, comment quality or quality of engagement is highly subjective. One person, usually not involved in the back and forth, mind you, can look at two people holding a conversation and think, "That's pure drivel!" In fact, they will probably use terms that are more direct and less polite. But is that true? Is the conversation pointless or of low quality?

I admit. I've read through comments and thought, "That's vague," or "What does that mean?" since so little was said. Yet, more times than not, there's a reply, and often, somehow, someway, the responder understood! How did that happen?! Well, the conclusion I've come to is—and perhaps it's an obvious one—those two know each other. It's as simple as that. Or they're better at guessing than I am. More times than not, though, what I'm seeing is just snippets of all kinds of conversations those two, and many others, have had over the course of their stay on STEEM, and in reality these conversations have been happening not just on the blockchain, but off, in various Discord channels and even in person.

On the surface, an exchange such as that could amount to spam in another scenario (though spammers generally are one and done—they don't seem to like conversations that much), simply because little was said. Yet, I would contend, the relationship is such, that not a whole lot needs to be said.

So, does that amount to quality engagement?

What if what the two or more are discussing is totally off topic from the post? What if it has to do with things each person will be doing on the weekend while the post was about the finer points of marmot boarding and grooming? Does that constitute quality engagement?

I like to stay on topic when on other people's posts out of courtesy to them. Some pretty much want things to stay on topic and not become a free for all, and there are others who don't seem to care. If they veer off topic, than I'll go with them. Again, who's commenting and whether the author knows them seems to color the attitude a bit.

When it comes to comments on my posts, sure, I'd like to talk about what I wrote (it means people are reading it, and I'm not just providing a place for people to hangout and talk about whatever), but I also don't mind other interactions either, because one of the reasons why I post is to generate engagement. If people feel comfortable commenting, exchanging opinions and knowledge, be it on topic or not, I say I'm helping to promote engagement on the blockchain.

So, tell me, what constitutes quality comments or quality engagement?

Does it have to be on topic? Does it have to be a certain length? Does it have to use more than just one syllable words, or better yet, more than lols and 😁. Does it include people you like? Is it different if you don't know them but they're doing virtually the same kind of replying? What is it that makes quality, quality?

My guess is, quality is subjective and we make exceptions for people we know because we've put more effort into other engagement, too. None of us get to see the length and breadth of what anyone else does on STEEM, every day, every week, every month. How could we, if we're going about our business? Me, I don't know how anyone can end up with more than 400 comments a week, because the highest I've ever managed is 359. But they do, week in and week out. Just as many others wonder how in the world do I manage 677 characters per comment?

I don't know. The words just come out. I spend a lot of time searching through posts, too, and reading. For every two or three I might comment on, there's at least one I don't because I have nothing to contribute. That's the way it works for me.

It may work different for you. And as far as I'm concerned, that's perfectly okay.

We're not going to ever get to a surefire way to measure quality. One person's trash is another man's treasure. It's been true for a long time, and it will continue to be true here on the blockchain. The moment we start talking in absolutes when there's more than one way to do things, especially ones that provide some pretty convincing results, I think we've closed ourselves off to the possibilities here.

And, we're probably shutting ourselves away from a lot of meaningful, in one way or another, engagement in the process.

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Quality commenting is obviously subjective, but we need qualitative numbers in order to have things like Asher's Leagues, so we start counting characters, comment length etc. Not news to you, I know. But, what I don't want to see is the lengths of comments increasing, solely based on a competition. And no, I'm not referring to you, or anyone for that matter. Lengthy blah blah is no different than a "great post" kind of comment.

I definitely agree with you on that. The point of the engagement league isn't to win it, right. It's to foster engagement and sincere conversations. So, I would say, the number of comments everyone has is going to naturally grow out of that, and from the number of comments, CL will naturally grow from that.

I don't really think like I have a lot to say. There are obviously times when I do. But there are plenty of times when I don't, that no one ever sees because I didn't leave any kind of comment. I imagine we all do that to varying degrees. I'd be interested to see how much I've read without commenting. It's impossible to track now, but I guess I could keep tabs of that.

Nah. I'm keeping tabs of enough. :)

No need to track those stats, but I'm the same way. I read a lot and often don't have much to say either. Other times plenty. That's ok too...I think we both comment plenty😅

Well, plenty is going to be relative, but I appreciate the thought. I'm pushing for 400 comments at some point. This week isn't looking like I will make it, but never say never. I'm hoping next week will be a little quieter, when I'm not on call for the little one anymore. Still, I've been getting things done in the in between times, so who knows. Maybe I just need to feel like I'm in a hurry all the time, like trying to meet a deadline or something.

When it comes to comments on my posts, sure, I'd like to talk about what I wrote

So... how is the day going? xD Just kiding

Yes, commenting with good quality is very subjective, i've had talks with people on my posts that started in one topic and after 10 or so back and forths we were at a totally different topic, that's mainly because i talk to some of my followers on discord and know what they liked or don't like, i also follow most of their posts so i know most of the people, to the ones i know I can say a lot of stuff in few words and they understand me, it's like that old thing where a husband and a wife can talk without saying any words :P

Yep, and so in your case, the quality engagement is happening because there's been a lot of back and forth and so now you don't have to say a whole lot to make it meaningful for the other person, and vice versa.

I'm not sure what people are looking for or expecting. Some kind of higher level of consciousness, I guess, but are they providing it, too? Are their lives and way of thinking so much more elevated? I'd like to see it. I just think there's higher expectations placed on others than what can possibly be delivered, while at the same time the individual with the expectation isn't holding themselves to the same standard, because they know they can't. That's a slippery slope.

And, just for the record, my day is going pretty good. I feel like I'm getting some things done. It's still getting warm, so I might not be worth much in a few hours, but the air conditioning should help if I don't have to go back and forth too much between my office and the house.

How about you? :)

howdy sir Glen! hey all anyone has to do to find an example of quality posts or commenting is to look at yours. You ALWAYS have relevant, intelligent, focused, thoughtful replies and comments.
Plus, somehow you do it with a flow and logic that most of us only dream about producing, at least I do. And it averages out to be 677 characters in length which is totally impressive and stunning.

Dang I wish I knew what my average length is, probably 150? lol. if that!
thank you sir, very interesting and thought provoking post!

Since you started, your average is a little over 213.2 characters per comment. Which means the size of your comments look more or less like this one I'm leaving you now. :) Okay. It's just a little more like this.

haha! mine are less than a third of yours! I try and then I just run out! lol.
sometimes I can think of more but don't know how to put it in writing.
I should hire you to do it for me! you stay up till 2 am right? lol.

Nope. The very latest I'm up on any given night is around 11:30 PM. Most nights I give up earlier enough to be in bed by 10:30 PM. Problem is, I generally start winding down around 9 PM, so I can get enough sleep before 5:30 AM rolls around, but then I end up going to bed later and still trying to get in here by 5:30. :)

I think you're two hours ahead of us, so It would still be after midnight for you.

See, though, it's not all about CL. It's C and CR too, so for every one I'm making, you're making a little over three, and so we might be fairly even in CL, you're lapping me three times on the C and then lapping me a little less than three times on the CR. It all multiplies, and in the case of last week, it caused an 18,500 point disparity, despite the fact the CL wasn't that much different.

We all need to do this the way we feel comfortable doing. I don't think there's any particular right way to do it if its adding value or fostering meaningful engagement. There's definitely wrong ways to go about it.

That might be fun to be your commenter for hire. I could practice my Texas attitude and southern hospitality. :)

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

well sir the League sure pushes engagement and even you said that you really picked it up once you joined.
what are the wrong ways to go about it as you say?
and what about the 2nd place guy who is joining the League? have you researched him yet?

haha! your last statement..a Northwesterner acting like a Texan, lol.

I don't get up early but sometimes i stay up to 1 or 1:30. but then I get up at 8 or later.

Wrong ways for engagement?

Well, I would say spamming is one. Cutting and pasting or repeating the same information or expressions over and over when it might not pertain are a couple more. I'm talking about things like saying something germane to the post and then hitting them with "Join this community" and launching into a description of it on every comment.

Even if you're not doing that, you can wrongfully engage even if you want to do it right. Basically giving people nothing to work with, failing to ask questions, basically telling them you're either done with the conversation or not expecting to further it.

People don't say that in so many words, but when someone says, "Thanks for the reply. Have a good day," while they're being polite, it doesn't necessarily make me want to answer anything else they might have said with it, since they either aren't expecting me to or don't seem to want it.

There's probably more bad ways, but that's more or less what I was thinking of.

I have not researched him. I think that's probably Asher's job, though it appears he's been getting help from others. I haven't been back to see how that's been going.

Yeah, I thought you would like my last statement. :)

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

I thought you researched everyone.
I think you need to find out about the competition. I don't like new competition. I like new people as long as they stay in their place. lol! what do you mean he's been getting help from others?

oh, about people commenting and say have a nice day or thanks for the reply and have a good day, I assume they don't want to talk anymore either so I drop it.

Oh, just that the current list of top engagers has changed since it was first published because there were quite a few names that ended up being bots or known spammers. People have been commenting about them and he's been adjusting the list, thus Asher has been getting help from others to improve the list.

I might go look at someone's blog, but I don't research them for the leagues. As I said, Asher is pretty good at that if something seems out of place.

It is what it is, as far as competition goes. Can't really say how much engagement we're doing if not all the top engagers on Steemit are members of the league. There's bound to be new folks who are good, just like you were when you came in.

I guess I am one of those that don't mind if a different topic thread pops up on one of my post, most often it is between two people that already posted their view, and then they see that hey, blah blah blah commented, and they drop them a comment because it has been awhile since they saw them.

Even if the comment is unrelated most of the time I do not mind, I have told a lot of people new users and older users, that yeah, feel free to ask anything on one of my post if you get stuck or need help, I am after all a @newbieresteemday sort of part time rep.

One thing I don't like to much on my post is bots telling my commenters off. (it has happened before), so I just ask the bot to whitelist me and please to not visit I will handle my own issues. The other thing I do not like to see, and do not see as quality at all is spamming. I get it byteball caught a lot of people up, their was byteball spams on lots of post in the comment sections. It was not just new users spamming either, it was witnesses and even a few whales. It was still spam and as bad as dropping a link and saying please go look like and vote me.

I saw some sour grape type comments on Ashers post, unlike the person that made it, I visited their page, I looked at some of the commons, at how long they had been on steemit, and then ignored his comment as nothing more than sour grapes. There seem to be a lot of sour grape type comments, and those I do not see as being useful at all.

To conclude for myself, A quality engagement comment is one that makes me or others think for more than a blink of an eye.

I was going to go looking to see about the commenter(s) in question and never made it over there. However, you're confirming some suspicions I had. Regardless, it amounts to telling people how to run their contests when there's no real obligation for the host to run one at all, let alone conform it in a way that is virtually impossible to do.

I agree about the spamming. It's amazing how sometimes it's a-okay and other times it's not. You're talking about repetitive, copy and paste kind of bits that show up with bots and promotions. I didn't really see anything for byteball, fortunately. I guess I'm still not in the in-crowd. :)

You're right that while we can fairly easily quantify quantity of comments and comment length, it's challenging to put a unit of measurement on the quality of the comments. I think that's what Asher was trying to do when he added the category for multi-level comments. Those are supposed more of a conversation rather than just a bot rattling off automated responses.

Quality is rather subjective, and while "nice post" from a total stranger might look like spam, "nice" from a frequent commentor/friend might be absolutely spot on. It's a matter of perspective.

I copied all the above from someone else's comment that hasn't been written yet. My response is below.

"Nice"

You're more talented than I already thought your were, if you're copying a future comment and already answering it. :)

Someone would have to comb through literally thousands of comments every week and then make quality calls on every one of them. I don't see anyone doing that.

Quality is quantity spelled with an 'l', and one less 't'.
—glenalbrethsen

What can I say? It's the worst use of time travel ever.

I think there's also an "n" missing from quality. ;)

I suppose when I quote myself I need to be more specific where the 'l' is going. :)

That's ok, man. I figured it out! Heh

I would agree that quality is subjective, but I would say that agreeing with everything the poster says is patronizing, though flattery is usually successful. Just for fun, someone should post a collection of outrageous statements just to see if the comments approve them.

Hey, @giddyupngo! That would be an interesting experiment. I could see it being really hilarious, or devolve straight into a flag war, which would probably be popcorn watching material in and of itself.

I know what you're talking about, since I've seen it happen to some extent. I don't feel like it happens that much on my posts, probably because I'm not at a point where people want to patronize me. :) I don't know about you, but the times it looks like it's happening is generally with higher SP.

I'm sure, though, that there's enough likeminded people here that it's bound to happen in a genuine manner, where people do agree. I've found myself doing it, and have also wondered if they actually believe me, or do they come away thinking, "What does that guy want now?" :)

You are right, I see it on whale posts mostly.

I don't know that that happens. I know I have made disagreement remarks to some content. Have had back and forth debates because of such comments, that is what it is about. No one said engagement=agreement. I also do not see a whole lot of that happening. Yes there is a lot of it, but if it is a polarizing post, there are going to be polarizing comments.

I think there are a lot of post that do not require dissenting opinions, there are a lot of "story" post, some I like some I don't and I let the author know what I like or don't like about their story. When it comes to picture post, if I have nothing nice to say or can not see what they are trying to show, then i move on. Art post, they get difficult, a totally subjective area if there ever was one...very hard to comment on most of it, I am not an art critic, but like I have mentioned on a few art post, I like it or I get it, but I have also posted I don't like it, I don't get it, what were you trying to show me..It's hard, but I personally do not see a lot of patronizing comments, and the few I do see are generally ignored by the poster while others get comments back and or voted on.

I agree with you, engagement does include disagreement. I tend to only disagree if it is a polarizing post (politics and religion). If it is an art post and I don't like it I just don't comment. The patronizing is most visible on whale posts.

I would like it to go hand in hand with the post. Something to add to the discussion. Not only do you know the person has read it but actually has something to say about it. Thanks Glen as I could go on and on and on to get my average up but I wont this time lol.

Don't hold back on my account. :)

Well, and see, I believe most of us would like comments to have something to do with the post, at least initially. We want people to read what we have to say and if they agree or disagree, we want to know that, too.

There are times, though, when you get down into the lower comments where the topic swerves a little. Is that still not worthwhile engagement? :)

Hi Glen. It depends and I enjoy all comments even if it swerves because then it is general chat as such and learn about the other person. I end up swerving quite a bit sometimes and it is fun.