It was neither the goal or the outcome, and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact).
In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently.
"and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact)."
You overcomplicate basic concepts. The value of an object is what it takes to create it, not the amount society wishes to pay for it. In an economy without waste it would directly hit this value. The problem is that in markets either too much or too little is created, because people are always in search of profit. You speak of this problem from a capitalist standpoint and refuse to see it from any other.
Humans produce only have the ability to produce so many resources. A single person only produces so much value. If this value, measured in the amount of labor it takes to produce (this is the only real measurement of value), is not matched the worker is gaining more than he produces or less. Profit can only come out of labor. This means with profit it is impossible for the worker to get everything he produces. In other words there is only so much labor, and it is split between the ruling class and the workers who produce it. This fits neatly into the definition of zero sum.
Opportunities do not affect the value of labor, only the price. From a value standpoint this makes the relationship authoritarian and oppressive.
I never argued about price, just value. You are the one being deliberately reductive. We are debating economics so we must find the value that connects all systems, not reduce it to a neo-liberal economic ideal.
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"The value of an object is what it takes to create it, not the amount society wishes to pay for it."
No, no it's not. We can have no further productive discussion, as you are a full on communist if you believe this. It has been proven wrong time and time again. You may as well argue that 1+1+4.
It's demonstrably false everywhere. Like, literally everywhere you look. Coach bags, Lamborghinis. It's proven wrong every second of every day.
You're completely ignoring that the quality of a salesman affects the price, and that sales is a different skill from production. You're ignoring basic reality in front of you.
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you are talking about price, not the value. I am talking about value, you just have zero understanding lmao
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No, you're just a fool who can't see what you call value is irrelevant. Nobody fucking cares about your made up value.
WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL USE OF ASSIGNING VALUES WHEN THE REAL WORLD IGNORES THEM BECAUSE PRICE IS THE REAL MARKET?
GIVE ME ONE USE!
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"WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL USE OF ASSIGNING VALUES WHEN THE REAL WORLD IGNORES THEM BECAUSE PRICE IS THE REAL MARKET?
GIVE ME ONE USE!"
well a society without a market. Which has been the most common for the majority of human history actually. Nice try tho
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Nice try what? I actually want to know. Stop acting like everyone else is some kind of Hitler
Say I'm a guy living in the US and Europe. Price is all that matters to me because I have to pay prices. What use is your theory for anything?
Shitting in a trench out behind your house was also common for the majority of human history, and that's no argument for going back to it. If you are just going to lob middle-school logical fallacies at me, I'm going to stop wasting my effort on you.
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"In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently."
nope. Wrong. That is dishonest and is assuming much.
The value of everything is the amount of socially necessary labor taken to create it. I don't care about the price you can sell it at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
here is some reading on it.
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Yeah, from your link:
"At present, this concept is usually associated with Marxian economics"
Ah, right, those economics that have always failed and killed hundreds of millions and no country has ever prospered from. Got it.
Again, a child with a water bottle analogy can destroy this whole discredited "theory".
Even if you were right about value, it would be absolutely meaningless, because the world runs on price. Value is functionally irrelevant.
What possible usefulness is a theory that tries to assign value and literally ignores price? Price is the only value that has ever been market-tested, every other "value" is speculation and opinion. You are not the one who decides what an acceptable mark-up for labor is. You are not the one who decides what an hour of a carpenter's time is worth. Therefore you can never be the one to decide what a table that takes him one hour to make is worth, only the market. By your own theory, value can never be determined, which makes it even more useless as a theory.
Your economic views aren't even internally consistent. You act like price is scientifically deducible, yet your only way to determine it is by estimating or with consensus. That's a laugh.
PS - You ignore this part in your own links: "including the labor necessary to develop any real capital used in the production." That's why the owner often makes more than the laborer relative to current effort.
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We can trade video links all day:
Your side gets destroyed every time, because usually you grow out of silly views that have no practical value after you get out of your junior year.
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"Your economic views aren't even internally consistent. You act like price is scientifically deducible, yet your only way to determine it is by estimating or with consensus. That's a laugh."
No, but value is.
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What good is it if it has no practical application?
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"Price is the only value that has ever been market-tested, every other "value" is speculation and opinion"
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
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How many countries is anarchy working in, currently?
Oh, zero? Right, thanks.
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so far my citations have hundreds of examples throughout history, but you can't even find one. Fuck off
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Made a false claim with no citation: check.
Then claimed that his false citation was actually hundreds of actual citations: check.
Provided no argument: check.
You're a lunatic troll. Get back in your cave, commie.
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"You are not the one who decides what an hour of a carpenter's time is worth"
That's because his time is worth the same amount as any other. Every job that is needed for society to function should be treated the same.
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See, the fact that you can say this with a straight face is what makes your whole argument such a joke.
Explain to me exactly how a heart surgeon and a Starbucks barista are equally valuable. Or a bus driver.
Are you totally ignorant of the fact that out of 1 million people, far more are qualified to be bus drivers than heart surgeons?
Do you walk into jewelry stores and rant that all stones are equally valuable and you should be able to buy a diamond for the same price as gravel?
You're barely worth responding to. You are just an ideologue with no reasoning skills. You will never even consider whether your position could be flawed. I don't know why I bother.
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"Explain to me exactly how a heart surgeon and a Starbucks barista are equally valuable. Or a bus driver."
explain to me how you should measure the value of human life in money, thus putting money on a higher position. They choose those jobs because they want to. Soviet russia had more doctors per capita than the united states. Your point is wrong.
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None of this is a response to my question.
"Explain to me exactly how a heart surgeon and a Starbucks barista are equally valuable. Or a bus driver."
That is what your theory MUST CLAIM. Now defend it or abandon your theory.
Stop dodging the question, your whole response is nonsense.
The barista chose that job because they are lazy and useless. Do you not understand how creatures are motivated? Personal gain.
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"That is what your theory MUST CLAIM. Now defend it or abandon your theory."
not what it claims, stop putting words in my mouth. That's dishonest and with that, I honestly don't care what you have to say.
"The barista chose that job because they are lazy and useless. Do you not understand how creatures are motivated? Personal gain."
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/11/30/evidence-poor-people-arent-lazy
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You have the balls to accuse me of putting words in your mouth by simply combining your own theories, while you do much worse to me?
Here's a hot tip, stereotyper - Poor people (does not equal) baristas. I never said it or implied it. I picked tow jobs on the basis of disparate skill and devotion.
You're the one who brought up "poor people" and apparently equated them with low-skill, low motivation labor.
Not me.
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"Do you walk into jewelry stores and rant that all stones are equally valuable and you should be able to buy a diamond for the same price as gravel?"
diamonds are only expensive because of a monopoly, their price should be around 1/4th to 1/8th the levels it is now. Also no. It takes more human labor to get diamond, so its value is higher. Well except for the fact we can make it in a lab now easily.
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Ok, good. This is a great response.
Now replace "diamond" with "medical school degree" and/or "get a diamond" with "cut open a ventricle".
We'll really be cooking with gas then.
Thank you for a real response.
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medial school degrees are a service, and one necessary for society. They just wouldn't have to pay for the degree.
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Then why bother to work much harder to do it instead of being a barista?
All your plan gets is a huge shortage of doctors.
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