Turning Rage Into The Soothing STEEM Now Blowing Out My BUTT as I Mince My Words for You, The Reader of This

in steemit •  6 years ago  (edited)

I've been pushed around far too much in my life and I don't need to take it anymore.

I'd like to see both sides of the coin working together.

Otherwise the coin has no value.

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Bots

I get it.

I know what their purpose is these days.  I know these ads on the trending page lure people into buying STEEM.  I know the role of the vote buyer is to purchase STEEM, work, buy votes, and hopefully enrich us all while they're to be content with a 10% cut.  That's the gist of it anyway.  The theory.

I have 23467 of these tokens on this platform.  By the time I finish writing this, I'll have more.  By the time you read this, I'll have more than that.

Of course I want to see the value rise.

Content Producers

I get it.

That's what I am.  Trust me, I get it.  Do I need to sit here and talk about working my butt off?  Majority of you already know what it takes.  You get it.  Even you witnesses know, when it comes time to write up an update, those take a huge portion of your day.  Everyone knows.

Bots vs Content Producers

This is pointless.

I've stepped out of my little world here, on many occasions, with good intentions in mind, to point out my side of the story.  I don't expect anyone to listen but I know you hear me.

I don't normally mention names or single anyone out.  This time, things will be a little bit different.

@lordbutterfly approached me and was nice enough to explain the side of a bot user, from his experience, to me, without cutting me down and chopping me up.  I got to see first hand what this approach is doing for him by looking at his recent posts, doing the math, figuring out what he's earning, all that.  After our conversation and what I witnessed, my final words were:

Those of us who came here to blog and produce content are not getting in your way when we post.  We're not stepping on anyone's toes and if you're like me, you're out there voting and trying to help others.  I'm not preventing anyone from making money by posting.

When you folks come here and boost your posts with no real care about how much attention your work is getting; as long as you can snag a percentage of the reward pool you're happy; that makes our work, the ones who do care, get pushed down and away from the eyes of new and old members alike.

I don't think you'll be able to see why that's a problem though.  You must be able to put yourself in the shoes of those who you're hurting before you can actually see what it's like.

I could easily play the same game.  Produce GOOD stuff people have enjoyed over the years, PLUS push your work down so you see far less of a chance of earning organic votes; but that behavior doesn't sit well with me when I put myself in the shoes of someone I could be hurting.

I guess they can stop calling it "promotion" now.

Thanks.  I'm glad we had this talk.

The full conversation will be included later.

In a nutshell, he figures he'll never be able to earn anything here, organically.

It was depressing to see two posts of his today have hundreds of votes beside them, all paid for, and no comments.  With under 400 followers, I can see how it would be difficult.  He's been a member since January of this year.  Under 300 posts, and that includes comments of course.  Obviously his networking needs work but unfortunately, in so many words, he doesn't believe in advice.

One of his posts was actually a comment he wrote to me, copy/pasted and turned into a blog post.

Screenshot (456).png

That post was boosted up with 15 STEEM, I did the math, and he'll be lucky to earn one dollar.  One single vote from me is worth more than that so I'm glad I didn't vote before finding out the bot user decided to pull over $17 out of the reward pool to place beside a comment so he could earn less than one dollar.  Most people here do not earn more than one dollar per comment but it does happen occasionally.

So, he didn't believe in the typical work hard, network, blah blah blah advice most of us who've done well here will agree actually works; but because he spoke to me, got my attention, his latest post, as of this writing, got a vote from me.  Not a sympathy vote.

Screenshot (457).png

The post was well written, included an unexpected ending that caught me off guard, and also reminded me of some of my previous work.  So he earned a follow as well.

That's all it takes, bot users who think this place doesn't pay people; that's it, just like that.

Buying votes, sitting back, and waiting; that's like fishing in a creek with no fish.

You can buy 400 votes but not one of those people will come to look at your post.  That is not their role.  You're paying them to look away.  Is that good, is that bad?  I don't know.  Everyone can decide on their own, but that is how it works.

Moving On

I wrote a post not long ago.

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Not Once, in the two years I've been here, have I ever made an agreement with anyone, when it comes to who I support and who supports me.

Ever since about the time I earned my first 10k in Steem Power here, I've been noticing how people change their attitudes towards me.  It seems once one reaches a certain point, many start looking down on you.  You get called names.  People think it's impossible to do well here and if you did, it must be due to foul play.  No matter what you do, how hard you work, how much you give back; people will eventually start to despise you.

I try not to let it bother me.

In the same comment thread I shared with @lordbutterfly, this was said about me:

The circle jerkers like noideaslefttowriteabout are only here to make a passive income. they really don't have any content or product.. Their content is a hook for their main purpose...

And he just went on rambling about his own uninformed paranoid delusions.

So, let's go back to bot users vs content producers.

Bear with me here.

The current struggle I face as a content producer who does not want to hand over money to a middleman and purchase votes is the fact those who do purchase the votes hog unearned visibility.  Because of them, someone like me, now, after working and being a member here for over two years, has less of a chance to enjoy the visibility I was working up to.  It's less likely for me to be seen on the feeds due to artificially inflated posts bumping my work down.  Many face the same problem, I'm not alone.

So they take away the visibility, then complain and treat you like crap for having an earned following willing to vote.  I'm limited to the people who vote for my work and don't stand much of a chance of earning more now.  Do they want those who vote for their favorite authors to stop and start voting for other posts?  Curation is fairly basic stuff.  I don't see why some frown upon it.

If I'm being accused of being a "circle jerker", everyone who votes for me is also being insulted.  Does that seem reasonable in your mind?  You came to me on your own, and I thank you for it as much as humanly possible.  What more can I do?  I explained how my support group came to be in that post above and I know many share the same experience.  You folks didn't do anything wrong.

I responded to that guy with the fancy f-word.  That's how it is though.  Jerks calling people down for doing something good with their lives doesn't sit well with me.  And unfortunately for the bot users, the bot users are more often than not the ones hating on everyone else for earning rewards.

There's no point in having a beef with each other.

We're really not on opposite teams, yet, like I said up there in my response to @lordbutterfly:

When I post, I'm not taking anything away from anyone.  When a bot user posts, they're paying to take visibility away from others, including other bot users.  It's selfish.  It's difficult for everyone to live under one roof when some are doing all the chores and others just want an allowance for doing nothing.  That's life, my friends.

That's how I feel about it, but I'm not angry.  I'm simply trying my best to say: these issues exist and they're not easy to put up with.

I don't want to take anything away from anyone.

We have all of these building blocks.

Now we just need to figure out a way to fit them all together.

Working against each other is a tremendous waste of resources.  I can offer a possible solution.
Please pardon the passion behind these words.  I was fired up when I wrote this:

This model of promotion is a joke.  There are only a handful of top slots and if thousands of people tried to promote their posts in this fashion, all they do is end up blending back in with the crowd; making this more pointless than it ever was.  The business model is one big flop.  If it becomes successful it becomes useless at the same time.  That's not capitalism, it's stupidity.

Content producers come first.  The ads and promoted posts should be tucked nicely inside posts as banner ads.  That would give those who wish to promote their posts a much larger potential viewership, and the content producers would be able to produce content that can reach top slots organically.  There are literally thousands of posts published daily.  The ads should be inside those posts and the content producers should take center stage to attract eyes to the platform.

The content producers should have to select a maximum of two ads they'd like to include in their blog from a market.  In other words, content producers would curate ads and look for something people might want to click because the content producer would be earning a piece of the ad revenue.  That click should function like the vote button, voting for the post before the consumer takes off to visit the ad.  Those promoting would have to spend more and more to jockey for position within this market tab.  If they wanted the top slot there, with the hopes a lazy blogger wouldn't look hard, they'd have to buy STEEM and spend more to boost it to the top.  This creates a huge demand for STEEM this current model can't even come close to.

That promotion, on payday, then gets split between the promoters, content producers who hosted the ad, and if there's any profit left that goes to the one who published the promotion.

Everyone then works together.  Content producers can earn ad revenue on top of their votes, those promoting have far more potential slots and far more potential eyes on their ads, those selling votes for the ads within the market would earn less per post but far more in bulk.  There wouldn't even be enough of them, which creates more demand to buy STEEM on top of all this.  Content producers with more stake earn higher percentages of the ad reward pool, creating even more demand to buy steem and power up earnings.

Right now everyone works against each other and the promotion system is a joke.  These people could be making far more money but they don't have any experience in the entertainment industry to be able to understand their roles.  They want the most money and they currently depend on the next sucker who walks in the door.  Everything about their system means, eventually, it falls in on itself.

I know the language is strong but my intention is to help.  I wrote about that on 7/7/2018 here:

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The comment section under that post also allowed me to brainstorm further.  It's a mess because I was writing it all as it came to mind, but the idea is solid.  There are far more potential eyes viewing individual posts at any given second than there are eyes viewing the top 20 slots on the trending page.  A big brand doesn't care about 1000 eyes viewing the top slot on the trending page.  Add up all the posts people look at in a day and that could be well over one million eyes even at the numbers of active users we have today.  They buy STEEM, offer content producers better incentives to pick their adds over the competition, and as the old saying goes: we go to the moon.

Of course then once people learn they can earn ad revenue on top of votes, that creates a positive feedback loop.  More producers, more ads, more STEEM being purchased; and it can't be stopped.  Everyone is making money that way.  Nobody is left out in the cold.  That's teamwork.  In business, teamwork is key.

I've been meaning to do a followup post but it's not easy for me to break character, stop the entertainment style I typically focus on, and do things like this.

Setting the record straight.

You may have seen me around the trending page, stirring things up.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or take anything away.  I could talk about the issues for days on end, I have a lot to say about this stuff, but never really have a chance to put it all together.  Even now, there's more, but I have to stop before I bore everyone to death with business talk.

Here's the link to the full conversation I had this week:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@nonameslefttouse/re-joeparys-a-beginners-guide-to-success-on-steemit-2-0-20181008t223009039z

That is all for today.

Thank you for your time.

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Organic trending was so 2016.

back in the good auld days when shitposts got $2k

lol

2016 had some deep real posts. Especially when you go back and have a look haha.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

When curation rewards were ~50%.

Combine a proper promotion service and 50% curation; this place would be booming.

Pondering what to say to this @nonameslefttouse, other than I "get" the undertone of exasperation here.

In some sense, I can understand both sides of the argument, but there are no winners... only the potential that we all lose.

I don't really care about SMTs, bots, the marketing of apps and all the other good stuff people believe will send Steem to the moon.

Steemit is like our "store front" on the world, and if we accept a system and dynamic in which "whatever crap will do" lives front and center, it doesn't matter (in the long run) how brilliant the concept and back end is. It's a bit like hiring a chef with 4 Michelin stars and putting him in a dirty dive with rats and roaches scurrying around... it doesn't matter how brilliant he may be, people will look at that storefront and go "GROSS! I'm not going in there."

What I see around here is a lot of short-sightedness. Ned, STINC and a bunch of developers all excited about their toys while paying ZERO attention to creating a thriving image for the greater public... which is the lifeblood that will drive all those exciting new technologies.

I know, I know... "We need investors, we need INVESTORS!" the clarion call goes out.

Investors in what? Does anyone even understand the psychology of investing? What it means? With the exception of a handful of real-estate investments, you don't invest for current income (bots, for example) you invest for capital gain over time. People don't buy MicroSnot stock for the dividends, they buy it in the hopes the stock doubles or triples in value.

Trying to stay on task just a little bit the entire notion of bots on Steem/Steemit as an "investment" is a misnomer, at best. The notion of draining the liquid capital out of a system in the guise of "investing" is actually (most of the time) a one-way ticket to driving the investment into the ground. Why? Because it does nothing to build value and everything to remove value.

Sadly, few will red this. Even fewer will care. But hey, appreciate the post!

=^..^=

It's not easy sitting here with a vision when I know most will look the other way. I could write an entire novel of rambling thoughts explaining what can be invested in, how it can be invested in, why they would invest in it.

When I first started here I noticed a few books being published. One chapter at a time, some were more popular than others, which is normal. So one was consistently on the trending page. I thought, "That's smart, this place could give the entire book publishing industry a run for it's money. That guy there is raking in the dough and he hasn't even sold a copy yet. He could probably use that money and publish that book now and pay for some nice slots in retail. This is genius."

Then I saw a youtube video later of a young lady singing a song. Sure, the youtube video had ten views, but she was trending with a nice chunk of money any busker in a subway can't even dream of. That's genius. Digital busking. There's probably millions upon millions of these videos on Youtube with no views and those folks didn't earn a dime.

When I started I saw the line "get paid to write". I had no idea there was any kind of art scene here at all. I got lucky there because two years prior I got back into digital art after giving up because there wasn't a demand for it. You'd see those free wallpaper type sites on the internet but did anyone ever care about the artist? You might see a website with a short bio about the artist but no interaction. So I started treating this little place like my own virtual art gallery. People walk in, I'm almost always there to greet them. I show off the art, do some writing, we can hang out, instead of offering them a coffee I can pass them a little vote. I also saw the other artists doing well. I got noticed more and more, sat in the top 5 most rewarded artists for awhile. There are millions of people like me who could benefit from this business model. I want to sell prints of these works too and I've found a global market, in no time.

Okay so keep this short, everything here has the potential to entertain. It doesn't have to be art. Life writers fill a gap, so on and so forth. This is like a massive magazine.

Books, music, art, newspaper/magazines; everything was here. Altogether this entertainment industry generates billions upon billions of views and dollars each year. All of those other companies have investors in this world.

So it became strange to me when I'd see witnesses saying the blockchain STEEM comes first, it needs investors, Steemit is nothing blah blah blah, just a forum. They had no idea of the true potential of this place and shifted their focus on only the crypto crowd, which is tiny compared to the entertainment industry. So here we are. Seemingly wasted potential until more can share the vision someone like me has. I can't be alone when I see potential. If I am, I don't know.

So now maybe because people don't realize the potential of embracing the entertainment industry, the don't see exactly how much ad revenue the entertainment industry can generate on top of the billions I mentioned previously.

This post did get some views though. I know it for a fact. A lot of people sneak in and read my stuff. Look how I get the place talking. In your typical internet blog type world, they say they get 1 comment per 200 page views. Here we have more engagement than anywhere else.

It would become too much of a dissertation if I had to actually address everything you point out here, and I basically agree.

I'll hit a couple of high points, though. Steemit is remarkably parallel to the early days of the web. The "nerds" who invented the web had SUCH a hard time thinking and visualizing beyond gaming forums, hacking, nerdy flaming... and "it would be SO cool that all the colleges and universities will get involved, and all this education will be free to the world!" (the "idealist" angle) and that was about the extent of it.

Along comes a pretty smart guy named Steve Case and applies something called usability to the web interface so suddenly some housewife from Kansas can put recipes online. AOL with "the pretty pictures" utterly dominates the "numbers, dots and dashes" of CompuServe and ProdigyInternet. Badda-bing, badda-boom. But many of the little nerds are very upset and saying "Gross! My MOM is online!" because now they are no longer "exclusive and special;" even while they are living on the couch in mom's basement.

Fast forward 20 years and we have Steemit (and clones) built by a group of blockchainiacs and developers who really don't know their way around mainstream marketing and psychology. The mistake they are making right now, is staying inside their comfort zones. Which is very very small... the crypto crowd; people who invest in really esoteric assets; app developers... in short, a target market of approximately 0.2% of the population. IF that.

As you well know, there's a HUGE consumer base for entertainment, art, music, poetry, blogs, online books and so on. And yet they don't seem to give a flying flip about promoting this venue as a *media publishing platform," which strikes me as incredibly myopic.

So no, you're not alone.

Right now, I see only two semi-promising initiatives here: "Ulogs," which is all about "The Internet of PEOPLE," but sadly thin on support other than creator @surpassinggoogle. And SteemMonsters which managed to run a successful KickStarter that was almost 175% funded in a venue that had nothing to do with Steemit, and has the potential to onboard huge numbers of people who don't know a blockchain from a hole in the ground, IF the concept takes off. MTG has millions of active players, and SM is the digital age model for that. Really crossing figures for that one.

My attraction here was to see this as a more viable version of Patreon, in that the "pavement-pounding" could be lighter, and people would be more likely to share their ching because upvotes don't actually cost out-of-pocket dineros.

Meanwhile... I guess I will continue to dispense cat photos and occasional philosophical musings.

=^..^=

Nailed it. 100% agree. And not to disrespect those experiencing their comfort zone either. We've all been there at some point. There's also this: The entire thing is still a work in progress. Running out of patience is the easy way out. Can't have all those things if everyone stops looking forward. Taking on the status quo is a necessary step in development as well. As much as some of these words might sting for some; they have to be here.

Bidbots work just as well for promotion with rewards declined.
The posts still trend, but with zero impact on the pool.
But dont suggest that to the bot owners, they will boot you from their discords.

Bidbots were never about promotion, they latched onto that bs months after we came out against vote buying.

How long do you think this will go on for? It's been ten months since I first wrote about it. Others were already most likely talking while I was away last year. Every possible worse case scenario that was brought up back then, call it a prediction but more like an educated guess, has come to fruition. It sounded ridiculous then.

If you follow the link above to the post I used as an example with the 400 votes there, we can see it's not promotion based on the words said and I had to do the math for him eventually. At the time of writing he insisted sending 15 steem and now getting 15.023 in return is a 10% profit. He seems like a nice guy, means well, but that sales pitch really jammed itself into his mind. Even the numbers weren't enough proof he was wasting his time. I think his other profits came from organic votes and he thinks the bid bots helped. It's strange. Looking so closely at that case and now I'm wondering just how many thousands of dollars are being wasted.

Steem goes on as long as enough witnesses keep running it.
I think stinc has more secrets.
Steem is not ready for primetime.
Its why stinc works soo hard at killing adoption.

At this point, I'm just along for the ride.
My issues are shared by some witnesses and there is little we can do until we have developers ready to contend with stinc.

In the end, its keep on steeming or cashout some 10k btc pizzas. 0.o

Teamwork is a great word to describe what should we do together. I as a gamer and you all as a steemians need to think about making things together. I as a streamer create a content every day and i like to see many new viewers on my stream. Bots, which can boost my post can't give me more attenion and viewers. Think about that. It's sad that many people pay for promotion and can't obtain a good reward. Advice from me: Don't try be best copy of someone, just try to be yourself.

Bots can't watch streams, my friend. They won't tip you either.

I like the idea you have presented here as possible promotional/advertisement model which might go along quite naturally as for content creators the same way for those who seek to promote themselves. Besides, the ads on the self-hosted blogs and other websites work almost exactly the same way while here the system and both sides would gain additional surplus value by raising the value of Steem.
In short, I like it!

Unfortunately, (I don't know which one goes first) the leading heads around Steemit Inc, as it seems, are not interested in something like this (very likely not seeing their own profitability in it what is somewhat understandable having in mind that majority of them are not content providers, in fact) or they don't understand how the marketing functions these days, or they don't know how to implement (write a code for that) into the blockchain, or some combo of it, or even all of it together.


There is only one thing I'm not going to forgive and forget you that easily. You should have really warned me at the beginning to arm myself with some popcorn and stuff!!! 😉😊

Yeah, this is a proven model. At first they said there weren't ads here, remember? Obviously that changed because of the paid programming we now see with boosted posts (any post that used promo bots or bid bots or bought votes is an ad, regardless of content). People wanted ads so they got ads and now they need a proper home.

So if someone wants to write a poem and turn it into a way to promote their blog, they can buy some ad space, hope their ad looks promising to the hosts (having the content producer select the ads themselves is very important because we wouldn't want crypto scam ads automatically being place in our posts, we might want Coca Cola or our friends promotion, maybe a charity promo), then be all over the place instead of just one slot for two days.

I explained more in the post from July. That was awhile ago, nothing changed. Some of the top witnesses saw this though, and that's a really good start. I don't really expect everyone to be a marketing champion or expert in the entertainment industry.. but some of us know what's up, we're qualified to come up with ideas.

Next time I'll just call the post Bring Popcorn.

At first they said they're weren't ads here, remember?

Of course that I remember. It was one of the main things that attracted me here over 2 years ago. But yeah, they changed their mind in some odd way quite soon after.

I just hope that they would realize soon enough and still on time (before some serious competition arises) how some more and better thought through changes are necessary as some of the best quality content creators here are getting more and more dissatisfied while some already left, and that's a pity and a loss for the whole community and the Steem blockchain itself.


Next time I'll just call the post Bring Popcorn.

lol 😂

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That part about people leaving really bugs me. Quite a few have told me why as well and for the most part its the ads and crap being boosted. I'm not saying all things getting boosted by bots are crap, I'm just saying crap gets boosted and that's a fact. It's depressing when you're been here for 2 years and can't even compete with a picture of corn on the cob. I nearly quit because of that. Took some time off, came back. I honestly don't know how much more I can handle. I'm stubborn though. I want this to work. I enjoy what I do. Bored without it...

Oh well. Have a good day.

I think, I know exactly what are you talking about. Btw, I'm wondering the same.

I honestly don't know how much more I can handle.

The problem is that the question arises too often lately. Being through, as it seems, the same phases as you did, with pulling back and cooling down periods of even a few months long breaks, I don't know anymore am I just that stubborn or it already starts to border with stupidity (or maybe both).

Frankly speaking, during recent HF20 charade parade, I was seriously contemplating if I find anything else I could replace Steemit with, I'm moving away. Can't bear it anymore the amount of deviousness, deceit and open or somewhat hidden greed and selfishness, especially when it comes from those who pretend to be some community supporters or even some moral verticals.

And what can I say now? Still here despite all of that. I don't know am I losing my character, being such an incorrigible optimist or I already jumped in the ocean of total utopia!?!

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Hey, @nonamelefttouse.

I have been moving closer and closer to the idea that there's not really any convincing others that what they're doing is detrimental or that another way is more beneficial. It seems like they have to arrive at the conclusion themselves.

Which is fine. If they see it for themselves, then they're more likely to change and become an advocate of the new way. In the meantime, though, it's darn frustrating.

I have not ventured to use a bot mainly because I thought the whole idea behind curation was for others to determine what my post is worth, not me. The issue of visibility is real, but as you've noted, the bots aren't really helping that. So, we have rewards on a post that do not adequately reflect what's truly being earned, or netted.

I had not heard the argument that those who have a following are somehow taking away from others, particularly the ones who feel forced to use bots in order to be seen. Talk about flipping things around.

I have a small group of folks that autovote my posts. It actually used to be larger, but many have fallen off. Not sure if it was me or just them, but anyway, it took several months to build that up and only about two months for the numbers to whittle down.

I can't call it a circle vote or ring, either, simply because I don't have any obligation to vote for any of them. For the most part, though, I do end up voting for what they put out because I like the posts. I understood that's how I'm supposed to do it.

I'd prefer we come up with a way to overcome the issue of visibility—which eventually means more people involved in curation—but I'm afraid people would rather use workarounds that take them supposedly to the head of the line even if they have to pay for these workarounds. I can't imagine this system working for the masses, but we don't have those yet, either.

First off, my intention is to only point this out. I'm not trying to force anything on anyone. One downside is an idea is good, some might not like it simply because they did not think of it. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The bots have made visibility turn invisible for everyone except for maybe a few on the top 20. Doesn't help and my run in with that member sheds light on that. Bought votes, nobody looked; and that's how it usually goes. The more people are paid to look away, the less we have around to look. Common sense.

If you see a name in a the list of those who've voted for you, it's only natural to become curious, see what they're up to, and yeah; if you like what you see, why not vote? That's not foul play.

More curation is necessary but most are unwillingly now that they can get paid to look away. If people buying votes truly knew what they were purchasing, then stopped, more would have incentive to come back and look.

This system won't work for the masses. If everyone bought $50 worth of votes and called that "visibility", $50 becomes the new $0 and everyone goes right back where they started. Plus the value of being rewarded $50 only means you break even, which in turn drives the actual value of the reward down... and eventually the value of the token itself.

Well, thank you for pointing it out. I'm in agreement with what you said, and thought I would share my own experience so far. Thus my response.

I've witnessed bot owners pound anyone who wanted more clarity about what was going on with bots, mostly because they disagreed with any idea that might hurt business, although they would blame the method being used or call into question the integrity or intentions of the person trying to shed light on the matter.

A simple PAID by the reward amount on posts would be sufficient to signal that the rewards were paid for. I'd even take a net amount rather than the whole amount. It doesn't have to be anything big, but as is, it's deceptive, and most people are going to be squeezed out of the market anyway, as you said, because how many users have hundreds of STEEM or SBD to ensure they're even seen?

If people want advertising or promotion, there are definitely better means. I for one, would rather just have my posts get in front of followers and whoever else might be looking for that kind of content and cut out the middleman completely. I find that to be one of the biggest allures of the STEEM social media platform.

One of the main reasons why I signed up the moment I heard about this place was because of the fact there's no middleman. People like me, digital artists; if I was produce an image, then sell it as a poster in a retail environment, I'd get the smallest cut per unit, and it would be tiny. I explored other avenues, they all sucked, came here, got noticed, proved there's a demand, used simply being friendly and funny as my marketing... boom. I blew up. Enter the middleman, everything goes to shit.

Yeah, so I played middleman as an owner of two small weekly newspapers for roughly 15 years. In our case, our markets were so small and businesses so few that the ones that actually did advertise looked on it as a form of goodwill, rather than anything they might get from it. I'm afraid they were right, given our demographics: small bedroom communities with people working, and thus largely shopping, elsewhere.

I also got a degree a couple of years go in Social Media Marketing. If companies are smart, they'll do that in house and use social media to drive all aspects of their business, from customer service to product development crowdsourcing. But they don't. At any rate, people are less inclined to look at a static ad and go, "Dude, I've got to have that!" than they are to watch an influencer on YouTube unbox and test drive/review whatever it is.

If Amazon, not that they need to blow up any further, truly wanted to blow up further, to the point of domination of the entire galaxy, all they really need to do is add a social component to their site (not just one way reviews and testimonials), and it would become virtually unstoppable. They've got the consumers. They've got the authors and other creators/companies selling their wares. Let them talk to one another.

On STEEM. :)

Now just imagine how that business model would fall apart if they were buying positive reviews and votes out in the open like they do here. BOOM! Kiss those billions goodbye.

If it helps any, after a few months away, ive come back with a complete aversion to bots. I started using them heavily when i first started steemit, only to discover that most the time i ended up about even, or sometimes way behind. About the only good it did or does is it brings up your reputation score quicker.

If it only took me a few months to figure it out, then i figure there 's got to be morelike me on steemit.

My guess is thousands left after feeling duped. The ones who stick around are the ones who actually get to experience that rewarding feeling once rewarded. It's satisfying and that's human nature, so they want it again. I'm still trying to get that damn organic trending post... which is stupid because bots took away that opportunity but hey! I never said I was smart.

The reputation things doesn't mean much. It's much like a trophy. If you buy your Best Bowler in the World trophy at a pawn shop, scratch off the name and write your own on there; it's not quite the same as actually being the best bowler in the world. Plus, someday someone might want to see you bowl... so you better be good.

Good stuff. Very well written post. I like some of the ideas you are floating around. The banner ad placement is good.I am a genuine Content Producer myself so I can absolutely relate to you on this level.
Thanks again for this great post @nonameslefttouse

Btw, it was so good ( and not sure why I have not found you sooner here at Steemit) I have put you on
randrew manuel curation trail.gif

Your Consistency in providing high quality Material is so much appreciated by the Steemit Community that we feel it should be rewarded Consistently :)

Most folks who produce content in any form of media know the content is what's supposed to drive potential eyes to advertisements. For some reason they do it backwards here and expect people to tune into the commercial channel with the hopes of seeing content breaks. It's kind of like we're supposed to read spam emails and filter out the stuff from our friends. This does not work. Everyone knows that. They're putting the paid programming late night stuff nobody watches into the prime time slots and moving the best shows with the ratings into the worst slots. So silly.

Thank you for this unexpected curation trail thing as well. It's not often I garner new supporters since this mess started. It's usually the opposite and I lose support. Thanks again!

Good piece. I have heard the arguments for and against bots. Bottom line, I get it too, but it still feels wrong. I have never used them once and never plan to. That said, I am friends with people that use them. To me it feels like taking cuts in line. I mean it's in the code, so to speak, so hoping people dont use them is a lost cause. Bottom line, I like your idea.

The bots aren't in the code. That's code working on top of the code engineered by anyone with the ability. The money doesn't go to steemit. It goes to individuals. It's just people who found a way to make more money off of your work than you do. I certainly wouldn't sign a contract to paint a house if it said I'll earn $1000 but only receive MAYBE $100 and the rest goes to someone else who did nothing and I never met them. And to top that off, the ONLY way that individual can receive the $900 is if I do the work. That's ludicrous. If the job is worth $1000 and $1000 will exchange hands, I should be getting $1000, or it's no deal.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

We have a built-in solution they are called flags. I try to use at least one a day.

Everyone will whine.... "Oh, but we don't get paid to flag"...

So what, restaurants don't get paid to clean.

The next whine is... My stake isn't big enough...

So what, you don't have to flag them down to zero, just take the profit off.

The blockchain is well the designed, the community doesn't understand the tools.

It is wisdom of the crowd... No one is going to fix it for you. Flag and make a comment, it is amazing how effective it is.

I've used them. Then people cry and say you're part of some kind of conspiracy. It's annoying. They make you look like a villain.

I'd just personally prefer a promotional space that actually works (this is a proven business model, with some innovation), one that can scale up and meet the demands of the future.

Ask yourself how well this current system would work if 1000 accounts all went for trending status within 30 minutes. I don't think it can even do 100.... and who wants to scroll through 1000 advertisements anyway?

Tis broken, my friend. Doesn't work.

We do not have enough people with stake. I think if there were more people who were actively curating and had some stake to use the problems would not seem so pronounced.

If a lot of people were fighting to get on trending, the cost of getting there would be higher than the rewards one received.

I flag once a day, I usually leave a friendly comment with it. I don't think anyone calls me a villain. Maybe they do... I'm old enough and comfortable enough with myself not to care. :)

I agree we are struggling...

If a lot of people were fighting to get on trending, the cost of getting there would be higher than the rewards one received.

Then it loses appeal and fails again. Like I said, the business model is ready to fall in on itself. It could take 30 minutes to finish it off. That's sketchy if you have money invested in it. My opinion. *Not financial advice.

If more folks would get out and actually curate, and be encouraged to power up, yes, things would be better. Too many distractions though. Too many are paid to look away, as their stake increases. Stake gets more and more centralized, delegated, and compacted further in fewer hands. Long ago my opinion was this whole thing is a bad idea and I feel what I predicted then, which wasn't exactly what people wanted to hear, is what we have now; a few problems that got worse, in my opinion. I shouldn't have to say in my opinion. I'm talking, of course it's my opinion.

Struggling. Yes. I want to get out of it. I don't have all the answers.

I get the bums rush from these bots every day, but I have learned that the value of a service is inversely proportional to the amount of work done to promote that service. With their unbelievable level of self promotion the must be worthless!

DO THE WORK, and stop looking for short cuts! THAT has always been the recipe for success, and being on Steemit does NOT change that!

BUT there are always those who must sell amway, avon, or mellaluka oil to try to leapfrog over everyone else! They are ALWAYS broke, and just a hairs breath from success...for decades!

I appreciate your confirmation of what I was sure of already, when it sounds too good to be true, it usually is!

:)

I've seen some become addicted. It turns into gambling. They keep putting more and more into that machine thinking the next one will pay off.

Then what happens if it does? Was it the quality of hard work that paid off? Or did the bots do it? Who do you thank? Imagine doing something and not even being able to decide whether or not its safe to give yourself credit.

I played hockey growing up. A good hockey stick is important. Never buy the expensive hockey stick that comes with a flashy pamphlet about how it makes you shoot two times harder and makes handling the puck a breeze. If you can't do those things to begin with, nothing can help you. Buy the cheap sticks and practice.

I never played hockey, but the same was true here with baseball. The half worn out mitt always worked better than the new all star mitt. Not because it was better gear, but because it was practiced with heavily!

As you say, who succeed if the bot makes you money?

Besides, steemit is fun, not a slot machine!

♡♡♡

The thought of not being able to get anywhere organically on here is damn depressing, it sucks. But I refuse to step on other people's hard work by using bots. If the work you do isn't getting the attention you want, you need to step it up, change things and work harder, get more involved, network, find your groove.

Well that's the way I see it!

I don't know what to tell you. That works but now with so many skipping that just to take a small percentage of what they pulled from the reward away for themselves... things are kind of broken now. That advice is frowned upon as well, so I don't know what to say.

I have been coming across post centered around this topic all day long. Today is the first day I will be making a new post after 3 months. I decided to stop my day job as it is bearing no fruit but I can't bear to see the constant complain about how the system is so malfunctioned "it's weighing on my confidence".
Nevertheless, I need to give my best and found a way around this, as I have taking a bigger risk. Here is my new post about this disruptive tech "blockchain" as I embark on a new journey. https://steemit.com/blockchain/@paulo380/why-blockchain-is-considered-as-the-most-disruptive-tech

I need your support and advice guys

One day I said something like, "I don't think new members asking for assistance now under this RC model will be begging. I now expect to see quality." Normally dropping random links under blog posts is frowned upon and the subject matter of that post isn't something I'd normally be interested in... but since you did such a damn fine job of it, I gave you a bit of help there. Be careful though. Dropping links like that could get you flagged. That post had nothing to do with this post.

With both retention and competing with bot votes becoming a problem I have no idea what the point is; I saw posts with 845 votes and 3 comments :/ As a content creator I'm out; I can't work for $0.20 when it takes 2 days to make a music video. I guess I'll be a spectator and continue to ankle bite the Whale sponsored flaggers who typically go after low SP posters and do so without the ability to properly identify plagiarism or understand language barriers. Of course the Whale's one liner shit posts are off limits, ..that would take back bone.

Of my 580 or so followers, 400 agree with me and they haven't posted or voted for at least 4 months or more. The rest will soon follow suit.

I could have saved myself the overhead of converting BTC to Steem, so from an investor's perspective, Steem is an expensive commodity to get into, ..or out of.

No Wood Chipper, Thumbs up! Greetings!

I don't like seeing people get pushed away before they even got started. Sorry it couldn't be better for you.

That's a shame. I was just checking out your great music posts. We have been on here about the same amount of time and it seems things have been picking up for me since August. Still, I know what it's like to work 2 days on something and do really well AND work 2 days for almost nothing. If I could recommend one thing, I'm thinking you would improve your discoverability with better tags.

@kansuze Thank you! I'm open to suggestions. I've used all manner of tags and some appropriate ones didn't even exist when I started. DTube has also removed some of the older videos, something I wasn't expecting. That also prevents me from linking them in a post featuring a collection of videos unless I re-post them on YT.

It's not all bad though. In November I start a collaboration with a recording studio, and sound will be a mix from 16 tracks. I'll be under contract, so I don't know if I can get permission to publish on Steemit but I'll give it a shot.

Thank you for your time. Greetings!

Hey! That's pretty cool. :-)

As someone who has depended on organic upvotes since day one, I still think that bidbots are the problem and the reason is just as you say. The drowning of good work and worthy content, the limited visibility due to bots. I came to this platform to make money, but the idea that it's up to the community to reward me for my hard work is the best part. Networking is a must and the best posts take time, as you say. I did not realize how much time it really took to be consistent until I got a day job!

I could not have said it better myself though, the bot users do take visibility away from others. In any sense, organic traffic is so invaluable and I know first hand that it does work. It just takes time...and hard work.

Didn't we meet long ago when I wrote that post comparing the bots to crack cocaine? I basically predicted the mess we're in today in that post. That was a long time ago.

Haha yes we did, I loved that post. You really hit the nail on the head with it. It was a long time ago...that means they've had a long time to fix the issue and it's gone unchecked. You definitely warned everyone of what was to come if nothing was done and here we are.

I don't understand people who write good stuff, spending time on it and then use a bid bot to gain an upvote that does not gain them any actual visibility at all. They might as well have just written a single word post, tagged it with #ignore and bid botted it up. Saves them the hassle of writing it and me the hassle of looking at the post, seeing it has bid bots on it and ignoring it.

If you are going to write stuff on here, surely you want people to read it.

What I don't get is how they can do that a few times per day, everyday, for weeks, not get anywhere, never once think their approach isn't working, blame the platform for being broken, blame the voters for not voting, accuse everyone else of doing something wrong, then quit after spending all that time.

I've seen that happen far too many times. You're right though. Like I said in another comment here, why not just go to the casino and talk to the slot machine.

If they would just look at the system they'd see how they've already purchased many of the large votes, so those people can't come and vote again; look at the culture, as you said, many with a vote ignore bid bot posts; even those simply chasing curation ignore it if the bots have already voted because there aren't any curation rewards left.

Placing a sign outside your shop that says '$50' doesn't help sales. $50, for what? If you have someone out on the street swinging a sign around and saying something, then yeah, people are going to notice. I guess around here they call that 'networking'. They created this culture though where some think helping each other build up their accounts is evil, so they don't want to talk to people and make friends; they just want strangers to come out of nowhere and drop miracles on them. I can't vote for people I don't know exist. If I could, I would but that's impossible. Damn, I'm rambling. Stayed up all night drinking coffee. Sorry about that.

Don't apologise for good content :)

Sorry for apologizing.

But how else will @joeparys sell his paid courses on free information to countless victims? Oh.... what....

Posted using Partiko iOS

Those guys would be able to place their ads inside posts. 10000 posts might host the same ad. Some of those posts get 10 views, some get 100. Add it all up, there's your exposure and potential clicks. Instead he's up there cramming it down people's throats and pretending to be a expert when clearly, the man doesn't know shit. Spends money to be in front of a small audience. DERP.

The best part is, people select the ads under this model. If he was selling snake oil, nobody would want it on their post.

Well it's taken me most of an hour to read this, listen to 5 seconds of Jerry2.0, and read the comments that post.

Please accept my rare full vote, resteem, and a box of !popcorn for your efforts.

That was one hell of a maze of a rabbit hole. One thing I've learned: I'm not alone, the votes on that one comment kind of prove that. It's shocking to see so much support for one comment, twice. I feel hated though, which I probably shouldn't, but I do. So many are involved in this mess now and I probably look like I'm just yelling at the clouds.

Thanks for your support. I truly appreciate it.

Not alone at all, but it is common to feel like you are pissing in the wind.

Personally I feel that fairly soon, blogging will fall to being 'not worth it' for income purposes of many. The high-SP circle jerks will continue of course, they don't need one account one vote, or SMTs to profit nicely, this is of course a proof of stake world we live in.

The reason I still hold is mainly down to what is in store for Steem with regards to SMT, and hope for days when we can use what we've earned to invest SP in places where there is demand that grows the blockchain.

Onwards captain!

It's hard to figure out a reason why they'd focus so much on creating content driven dapps only to shelf content, especially when the entertainment industry from books to video, news, science; pretty much everything that can potentially entertain someone (a serious essay about rocks still has the potential to entertain, I use the term loosely) generates billions yearly. I've already proven a business model that works for digital artists whereas before I'd have to create a website, fill it with shitty ads that nobody clicks, and place my work in the center while removing the entertainment element I've added in to make the experience unique, call it "free wallpapers", then sit back and not make a goddamn penny. Art depends on eyes, I had those before the bots started plastering ads over top of my work, and now potentially thousands of digital artists can't help generate millions of those billions after I've already proven there's a demand. I guess an SMT is that same shitty website with no ads and a button that leads people to first buy STEEM, then buy the token I created, then... what? I get it, but I don't get it.

I'm going to ramble out a mis-informed on this later today/tomorrow.

I'll keep my eyes peeled. Looking forward to it. For now, I think I'll go to that place I go when I sleep with the cool colors and the nice stuff and probably that weird dream about Steemit I bet we all have where our post is trending and everyone likes us.

@nonameslefttouse, I think you just gave me a "Eureka!" moment pertaining to the post embedded ad idea and how we can dethrone the bid bots as the "best" means of ROI.

I know. It sounds crazy but what I am thinking just might be crazy enough to work. The only thing I would be concerned about is the pushback from bot owners once they realize their business model just might become obselete.

I can't say too much here. I think it a damn good idea. Just need to sort out the minutia.

There's a strong chance I've already thought of it but the more minds thinking clearly on this matter the better. I could have micromanaged what I have here into another hour of reading and I'm sure there's more.

Good luck.

Those of us who came here to blog and produce content are not getting in your way when we post. We're not stepping on anyone's toes and if you're like me, you're out there voting and trying to help others. I'm not preventing anyone from making money by posting.

This is not true, though.

The pool is fixed. Meaning that every post on Steemit that receives votes - even organic ones - prevent other posts from making money.

This post by you right here reduces the rewards of my posts. Bots or not. We all step on each other's toes unavoidably.

That's more of a dance though and something we have to deal with as we work together.

If a new post gets published, and my post is sitting here with money, I'm not preventing the new post from making money. If you post under the fiction tag and the post gets votes, it's climbs up the visibility ladder, that could potentially lead to more votes and a new viewership, but then fifty noobs write about the time they read fiction, use the fiction tag, boost it up with bots, bury your fiction, take away any possible chance at new votes and followers. That's not a dance, it's people bumping into each other and bouncing off walls and it's preventing you from advancing further.

The only thing that should bump your work down is something better that comes along. Better could mean more popular. Better could mean many people have bad taste as well. An album doesn't reach the top of the charts just because the band says so, which is what happens here. When a band reaches a place like the top 50, people who've never heard of that band now know of it, and that could potentially lead to more fans; fans pay. The model exists here but the true talent can't rise up because for some strange reason a video of someones first time playing guitar is at the top; figuratively speaking.

Well I left a comment on his bot voted post that was in fact a copy and paste of his comment on Joe’s shit post.

At least he got one organic vote and comment. :P

He doesn't seem like a bad guy at all. I'm sure if he wanted to get somewhere, he could. 400 votes and no comments should be a sign to change things up, but it's up to each member to read those signs. It's impossible to hold everyone's hand here and help guide them to the top.

It looks like he eventually spent STEEM on the post I voted for. That tells me my effort wasn't enough. I guess I'll move on and find someone else to help.

He doesn't even respond to comments on his posts... definitely not worth helping.

I've been responding to comments all day... including now! Look at that.

I recently mentioned the 'circle-jerk's topic in a recent post, yes it happens and so what? We are humans and we make connections and that's just how we are.

Do we strive to be in the same social class as one another? Eg.. the dolphins feed the dolphins..., yes there is some of that, but its not all like that.

Do we want to grow? Sure.. and getting the attention of someone bigger than yourself always helps.

I used to do BOTS, but stopped in June and haven't used them since. Perhaps its because I'm not an old hand here and there was some ignorance involved.

These days, if I find someone who is a BOT users at $30+ I tend not to vote for them anymore. Why do they need my small vote when they are getting huge ones?

Social circles will develop. People want communities. But in the same breathe they use this derogatory tone and treat people like shit.

I've known some people here for two years. They weren't dolphins before but they are now, and I'm not going to stop supporting their work. I still enjoy their posts! So wtf? If someone moaning became a dolphin would they, at that moment, tell everyone to stop voting for them? Doubtful.

Most of us who started with nothing want to help and contribute to the growth of those just starting out. I always look for people willing to build up their account values and make something of this place. I don't want to support a leech.

I'm sure those folks with the $80 bot posts are happy with their results so yeah, they don't exactly need my help. I can only drop 50 cents here and there and rarely vote full 100% because then I can't spread it around. That 50 cents isn't what they want. At least that's my understanding of the situation. They want the big whale votes only.

I always look for people willing to build up their account values and make something of this place

I'm with you there, build up and you have more to contribute. I felt embarrased when I first started that I couldnt gve anything back to those who helped me get my feet of the ground. I know some others do to, but then others don't and have a different outlook on things.

I'm sure those folks with the $80 bot posts are happy with their results so yeah, they don't exactly need my help.

I dont see the point. It gets you on trending. BFD... nobody with any sense looks there anyway besides naive newbies who dont have a vote weight anyway.

Perhaps I should buy votes but I do not. It is all organic. I only invest my time here. I would think if you bought your way, you would not appreciate what you get as much and rob yourself of the experience. That was quite an article. Thanks for taking the time to share my friend.

You're welcome. It's quiet. Either people are thinking, or getting the wood chipper ready to finish me off. :)

Thankfully I’ve been hiding behind community posts and community tasks for the most part to not even care much anymore about “it”. If it was not for the communities I'm involved in I would have quite Steemit months ago even more so with some recent things going on. It’s been on my mind. I have little will to keep going on.

I just skip right over the bidbotted posts that are past thresholds the different community I am have for rewarding amazing content. It does not even bother me anymore like it use too. They can take their 5 cent profit or whatever the fuck they get and they don’t have to know how much they just cheated themselves out of by me leaving and not doing a fucking thing. I'm not talking about big boys fishing for whale votes on there tending posts I'm talking about little guys who are tossing in $5-10 into the slot machines and walking way with pocket change at best. Shooting themselves in the foot so some rich guy can get richer. Sounds like real life.

Only thing that bothers me is running into posts where they have not bidbotted and they are over a certain amount on that post so I just toss them a tinny vote from myself when I can and move on. It’s those people who are creating amazing content a few times a week and have been for a very long time that is unable to grow past that point. The help is not there for them and it’s like they are stuck forever moving sideways.

Thankfully more times then not I'm just a shit poster or writing community content that are just for certain groups of people. I'll gladly accept those peoples 0.001 upvotes all day long if they choose to cast them. Those are earned and have heart behind them. Not some cold death rattle of a bot reaching out to bless shit and having to wash its hands afterword.

I recently used the slot machine analogy. I think I said something like, you folks might as well just go to the casino and talk to the slot machine. The bots are marketed as a way to help people succeed but really they're still just starting at the bottom with monopoly money beside the post. I remember when my posts were ghost towns early on, I know what it's like, but that low reward made me want to earn more and not give up. That's how my mind works.

I visited that place twice and my main comment got over 50 votes, twice. I know I'm not alone but damn I feel alone. If there's no one around left to vote because they're all being paid to look away, I really don't see how a bot would help at this point. It's not worth the hassle for a buck or two, if that.

I just don’t have the energy to argue with those people who want live the lie they are in. They need to have that feeling of those 50,100+ post payouts even if it’s just a lie. They have to live that dream of being on trending and getting all those spam comments like they are important or some shit. It’s like dealing with someone who has to have the best of everything and they take out massive loans and lord it around people like they are some hot shit. Sooner or later it all comes back.

Thankfully here on the blockchain the “fake success” society lives on is for everyone to see if they choose. It's both very sad and funny when they have to out bidbot each other to try and claim trending.

Weekend Mustang renters. They drive it like they own it. Saved up for two months to rent that car and take a cruise around the city. I guess talking about it openly only pisses people off though. I don't want to cut people down. It's easy to see through though and being honest about it shouldn't be a problem. I tried to be honest about under a post the other day I was told I was being disrespectful, even after shooting the shit and making a joke. I can't follow the herd though. The moment I do it is the moment it'll become unfashionable.. LOL!

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

You are OK man - I like your posts - sometimes I even read them. Like this one that I started reading the moment you posted it. It's pretty darn long....

Here is another perspective - for about six months this year my payouts were shit, and as @sift666 I've always been anti bot. But when I started out all new as @frot, first thing I did was ditch my old rules - and I started using bots.

As a two year old burnout case, going back up to $80 payouts reignited my enthusiasm for posting. I know the money is not real, but $2 payouts were fucking up my ego. And I usually I do come out slightly ahead - at least better than $2!

Enjoy my stuff while it lasts, my friend.

Yes, before you bore everyone to death. Please, try and be breaking your long posts into part 2 & 3 and...?
Anyone who would find it interesting to read the long post till the end will still come to finish it if it is split into parts. While those who would not come back for part 2 will not try to finish the single long one in the first place. One advantage i am sure you know is that a single long post will get just an upvote from one person, while the posts that is split into 2 or 3 parts will get the 2 or 3 upvotes from all who would care to see it till the end and the single upvotes from those who would just skim through a single long post, upvote and leave.

That's interesting. If you'd like to read part one, click on the banner at the bottom with the word Class on the thumbnail...

Please stay tuned for part two of this response.

Welcome back. Response Part II

Was this worth the wait?

I upvoted your post.

Keep steeming for a better tomorrow.
@Acknowledgement - God Bless

Posted using https://Steeming.com condenser site.

TL; R

Don't worry. This won't happen again.

If it does, I'll read it again.

I enjoy reading your serious posts..

I must say I rarely see you in my feed.. I have to remember to visit your blog! Like other users..

I should clear out people i don't really follow anymore lol..

Be well!

Tired of gettin pushed around

It's usually a really good sign when the comments are that long. People are listening, whether it's the ones that matter or not I don't know, but they are listening. I was already eating popcorn BTW...lol

thanks for expressing all the good points in such details.

I've also felt in the similar way: that this whole supposedly "alternative social media" where people get rewarded for content generating - more like turns into de facto Investment platform, perhaps into some sort of a Long-term HYIP (or a clever Lending platform, less obvious because it is disguised as social network, with so called SMT which supposedly have to have more value...)

this whole subject of "voting-bots Vs Content creators" very much concerned and perhaps even worries so many people. I'm no exception. have been trying to read other people posts and discussions about it and share my own thoughts on this matter. (about Delegation too)

will certainly read your new blog posts, which I have no doubt will inevitably follow! :)
because you certainly do produce a good stuff - I enjoy reading it.