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cryptobarry (58) · 8 years ago (edited)

I hope none of the bigger accounts are doing that because that is the kind of behavior that destroyed Digg.com. Digg was the big link aggregator before it committed suicide and was replaced by Reddit. Digg allowed it's power users to take control of content that reached the front page. It got so bad that some of these bigger accounts were being paid to push specific content to the top.

Digg killed Digg and everyone moved over to Reddit. Reddit has it's own set of problems that are starting to demoralize the userbase and every few months their is a mass exodus of users that have been disenfranchised by the admins. I hope Steemit learns from the mistakes of Digg and Reddit and avoids them.

$10.44

transcendfinance (8) · 8 years ago

Steemit won't learn from this because what you see from those 2 examples is human nature, not mistakes. Human nature killed those platforms, because too much centralized power and greed tend to corrupt people. Corruption may be the wrong term, as it denotes some sort of evil, which is not what I am trying to convey. But greed is an absolute part of the current human paradigm, and until we find a way to overcome this mentality, until Steemit finds away to overcome greed in favor of community, it will continue to perpetuate the same system it claims to disrupt. I think Steemit could learn a lot from the African concept of Ubuntu and the Ubuntu movement.

$0.00

patrice (65) · 8 years ago

As users we need to have more "discussions" with each other than posts promoting the problem, but I don't think anyone knows how to get a like minded group together to get started and we end up with a lot of posts rehashing the same problems with some disjointed conversations.

You're right about human nature. What I try to point out to users is that Steemit is a community, not a website owned by someone and as such we control the direction either directly or indirectly.

I look at comments and see quite a few wanting to see the addition of simple link aggregation. I see them either as misguided in the direction they want to take Steemit or those looking for easy money thinking that a platform like Reddit could be monetized to reward the link aggregators.

Steemit isn't going to everyone rich or even provide and income, unfortunately that is how the world works. What it can do as the site grows is reward users for honest participation as well as awarding those with good/relevant content directly.

For that to happen, users need to understand that whales and dolphins are spreading the distribution of SP/SBD and growing the middle class community. It will trickle down as long as those rewarded like @rok-sivantehave an interest in seeing the Steemit community succeed.

Minnows have a direct impact on high payouts as well. While following a whale may get you more SP if they are upvoting content for no other reason than a whale did it then it contributes to the problem. I tend to look at a user's history including their, comments, upvotes to others, and their wallet before I vote on something that could be viral.

Ughh. I wrote a book again. :/

$0.54

11 votes

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

excellent contribution to the conversation. hardly a book. :-)

re: link aggregation... yes. this is not a "make-easy-money" platform. rewards flow to those who put in a LOT of time and energy into creating valuable content. neither much time nor energy is required to share a link, and such, not a lot of value inherent in it - unless perhaps the user has also done a writeup sharing a unique, valuable perspective on the content that furthers stimulating discussion.

re: >"users need to understand that whales and dolphins are spreading the distribution of SP/SBD and growing the middle class community."

YES.

And truthfully, I've begun finding that even more personally rewarding/satisfying than seeing the numbers in my account is upvoting and putting SBD in the accounts of those who I feel have added real value to the site, whom I appreciate for the perspectives they've contributed to me in exchange for the time I paid to their posts.

re: >"I tend to look at a user's history including their, comments, upvotes to others, and their wallet before I vote on something that could be viral."

I like this. It exemplifies the value of a long-term investment in the community - not judging a user based on one first impression, but digging in to understand more of what they're about and have proven themselves to contribute to the community over the duration of their time on Steemit.

$0.00

patrice (65) · 8 years ago

Thank you. I enjoy a good conversation. :)

I find that I am actually able to help others here and it is rewarding beyond the monetary gains. While sometimes discouraging when people don't "get it", when one does and says thanks it feels good.

There's also such a thing as putting in your 'dues'. I see that in comments and helping people I've been rewarded more monetarily than for posting. Not that I've had anything to post, but when I do maybe others will follow me and notice. Then again I may end up being a content helper instead of a content creator.

Complaining about the system just takes away from the time you have in trying to change the system.

$0.00

egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

Steemit is basically Digg v4 from the beginning: all for power users to get their advertisements seen.

$0.00

cass (69) · 8 years ago

Hey :) may u could start using other img for your next posts :) as a visual guy i would appreciated some variety of img. I know .. but.. don't get me wrong, i'm enjoying reading your posts! GO ahead

$2.63

4 votes

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

Shall keep that in mind. A couple of these, I did reuuse, and rushed a bit as was getting kinda burned out from spending so long writing and just wanted to get it published - but yes, thank you for sharing this feedback, so as to keep accountable to continually high standards on the visual aspect as well... 👌

$0.00

lukestokes (75) · 8 years ago

Great post, thank you! I was also added to a bot list, and it made all the difference for me. Prior to that, some of my posts would get a dollar or two (which I was thoroughly grateful for as it's more than Twitter or Facebook ever paid me!) while others might get lucky. The bot bump makes all the difference as to whether or not a post catches some attention and moves up. I still find really great posts which have been missed or great authors who have more than a few hit articles while most of their posts are unnoticed. The curation bots are an important part of the ecosystem, one in which people trade risk to their reputation based on trust for time. The more I think about it, the more I think maybe even I should get a bot at some point and support the authors I'm seeing who consistently put out great content, but I miss due to lack of notifications. I'm using steemstats.com and my follow list (which is how I found this post, in fact), but I still miss so much great content I'd like to vote on. As you said, the "What is Steemit?" question is still being answered every day. It's an exciting time to be here.

$1.29

8 votes

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

to CLARIFY the reason WHY you have been put on the bot list:

You have been producing QUALITY, VALUABLE content.

I recognized that from the first posts of yours I saw, and was supporting them with my upvotes. You've proven you're an asset to the community, and such have reaped the rewards - while also being held accountable to continuing producing such quality content and serving well with the opportunity you've been granted.

and as was referred to in another comment with the reverse-crabbucket dynamic... with the higher rewards you're earning, you now have the opportunity to pay it forward by supporting those under-recognized authors you come across. you also have the opportunity to do some curation posts - like a "Top 10 Rising Stars / Top 10 Must-Read Underdog Posts Of The Week" type thing, helping using the spotlight shone on you to direct attention to where you feel it is well-deserved.

Truthfully, I don't want to be writing and spending hours per day on Steemit a year or two from now, the same way I am at the moment. I recognize there are contributions to be made to the community which I am in a position to make now - though I want to use my success to pass on the lessons, guidance, insight, and wisdom that will help new talent rise - passing on the torch, so the natural stars can rise to the position they deserve as they put in their work developing the skills and producing quality content to better serve the community, at which point I can invest my top talents elsewhere, where need at that time.

so yes, I agree that a bot to support the voting on users I'd like to invest into would indeed be an amazing thing. If you figure out the technical details of how to pull it off, lemme know... :-)

$0.08

lukestokes (75) · 8 years ago

Thanks Rok. That means so much to me. I just spent the last couple of hours helping someone on the chat and going through new posts in different categories, feeling the thrill of voting up some $0.00 posts to $0.15 while also calling out the occasional plagiarist Cheetah somehow missed.

Normally I'd be focusing on my next post, but tonight I enjoyed just using the site, leaving comments, and voting for stuff I hope others find as well. I think an under dog post entry is a great idea. I was really, really happy about highlighting this post about the latest Steem Whale updates. It was about to pay out at less than $2. I used a connection who has the ear of a whale, and we got it up over $200. That felt really, really good. I use that site every day, and it's a great feeling to see them rewarded.

Thanks for putting out such great content and for connecting so many people together. You are truly gifted at this.

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago (edited)

I am also greatful for the consistent quality you put out and am happy you have been put on the bot list to promote your content. People like you are the ones that have the idea of the system correct. You have a bit more time than some of the whales, so you are able to invest that time finding and supporting new people trying to create valuable posts and comments. It really is a pay it forward system. And by promoting other great posts within your own, you add visibility to them while also maintaining your status as a great curator. Many thanks for all you have done so far.

$0.00

schro (58) · 8 years ago

After the payout window switched to 12 hours ive also been considering this. I miss a lot of content by a few authors i regularly want to vote on due to the time difference (im in Australia).

$0.00

stellabelle (75) · 8 years ago

This is another great one of yours. I appreciate you taking the time to break it down for people. Another thing I'd like to add, the minnows of today are the dolphins of tomorrow. Who will choose themselves to be a dolphin? The Orcas and whales have been specifically chosen on the merits of their ability to give wealth to others. Those who give and curate the next wave of dolphins are entrusted with wealth. Those who simply hoard and do nothing to grow Steemit, are not really trusted. This is a layer of Steemit that people are largely unaware of. Advice to haters: start devising ways to share wealth, more wealth comes to you as a by-product. Healthy ecosystems need healthy people.....

$1.28

6 votes

jupiter00000 (60) · 8 years ago

"Who will choose themselves to be a dolphin?" look, if the whales dont see my blog as a way to market Steemit, then I will never gain their vote. Genuine quality is often overlooked. That just doesn't happen very much on Reddit, where everyone is given equal power to vote and be voted on. Reddit's foundation is quality, not the wallets of arrogant whales.

$0.00

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

I personally believe that those upset with whales and bots are looking at this from a viewpoint of needing to grab as much money as possible as quickly as possible due to jealousy. I haven't met a whale, or anyone with success who has been a jerk. All of the people that have consistently great posts have high numbers as their reputation. I find the people who claim steemit is a ponzi or that whales only upvote to game the system are those who came in with high hopes, went right away to writing and having found little success, instead of looking at themselves decided to blame others. One of the most beneficial things a new person can do is to not submit posts immediately in the hope of making something viral. Spending a week here before even writing an #introduceyoursel post will pay dividends, as those users will have taken the time to realize how this ecosystem works as @rok-sivante so brilliantly described.

$0.00

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

This is a pretty ridiculous and unfair characterization. Me personally, ive only ever made $500 or so posting, and ive given away around $800-900 to good posters or ppl helping fight spam.

Basically, youre employing a double standard. If rok or bella want the money to be distributed one way, then thats because theyre great people who dont care about money.

But if someone disagrees, then theyre greedy stupid assholes who just want to blame other people for their failures.

Also, FWIW, i don't think wales are trying to game the system. I just think, for a variety of reasons (most probably involvng how busy they are), theyre crappy curators.

They have a bunch of "staff" authors who they painted into a liquidity trap, who are mostly producing low quality infomercial type posts, then they just look for boobs, well known crypto names, and cheerleading.

I dont have a problem with the ethics of it. My problem is that it is so transparent and hamfisted its killing the credibility of the platform and driving down the price of steem.

$0.00

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

From what I have noticed is it usually goes like this.

Someone sees a post make a thousand dollars and signs up
New user is incredibly excited to make money and starts posting without really understanding how steemit works
3.They spend a good amount of time writing a few great posts that make a few dollars
4.User becomes frustrated and start posting negatively

That is what I've seen time and again from many with negative views of steemit.

Can you explain what you mean by

"Basically, youre employing a double standard. If rok or bella want the money to be distributed one way, then thats because theyre great people who dont care about money.

But if someone disagrees, then theyre greedy stupid assholes who just want to blame other people for their failures."

I'm not sure what the double standard is exactly that you are referring to. rok and bella both care a lot about their votes and use them when they see great content. Whales don't necessarily look at each post and choose to upvote it. They can promote new users or ideas as they see fit. The people complaining are the same ones who have earned more money than on any other social media site. It's because of the comparison to others that they are upset. I also feel I would use steemit without any rewards, because interesting content and writing can be found here that I haven't seen elsewhere.

I do also agree that some whales may need to delegate their voting power to those less busy than themselves, because so much good content goes unnoticed.

When I look at the trending page I guess I don't see as much "low quality infomercial type posts, then they just look for boobs, well known crypto names, and cheerleading," as you do. I see the stella and rok and donkeypong and piedpiper posts that add value. Eventually I believe less will be made about steemit and how to's, but that is something new people continuously need to see and with wang being invisible, they will most likely be looking in the trending section to find answers.

You raise valid points and while I disagree with you on the whole, you are right that some aspects do need changing to keep steemit as a credible platform in the long run. Content and community is what will set steemit apart if it is to succeed.

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

I don't see rok or stella complaining and they had to work their way up like everyone else. I understand that spam bots are not beneficial, but I don't see any reason not to encourage bots and botlists of those who are heavily invested. It should encourage users to want to create content that would warrant being on a list. Essentially a sponsorship. I'm not saying it was at all easy for me to figure out, and not everyone is good at blogging, and I do not consider myself a great writer, but I saw what posts did well and adopted pieces of them and made them my own

I don't think those who don't support the current reward system are poor intentioned as a whole (as I too have changes I hope will be implemented), but I think many are short sighted and see steemit as a place to come get rich and leave. We can continue to disagree. We both have valuable opinions and I'm glad you brought up these points in an appropriate manner.

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

The double standard is:

"I personally believe that those upset with whales and bots are looking at this from a viewpoint of needing to grab as much money as possible as quickly as possible due to jealousy. "

People who object to bots and botlists do so becausse of greed, jealousy, stupidity and being shitty people.

rok and bella both care a lot about their votes and use them when they see great content. Whales don't necessarily look at each post and choose to upvote it.

People like rok and bella support the bots becasue they care about the system and theyre great people.

and if you think there's any problem with the way awards are apportioned, its because youre jealous.

You assume one side of a debate has good intentions, and the other has bad. thats a double standard.

$0.07

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

Just as a side note, and speaking of double standards... if the minnows and dolphins can automate their votes, that fair game too, right.

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

Minnows and dolphins can automate votes if they want, but it will make much less impact than whales, and minnows have barely any vested interest (steem power wise). I'm not exactly sure if that was your question or not, but hopefully that is along lines of what you were talking about.

$0.00

egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

Not really. It's just that some of us understand how platforms like this work, and if they are designed in such a way to silence thousands of regular users in favor of a few rich whales, they will quickly stagnate and die.

$0.00

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

The whales have a vested interest in all users. Without minnows the entire system would collapse. New users are not silenced, but have to consistently make good content to be noticed. Usually new users try a solid 2 or 3 posts and get frustrated and switch what they are doing. I started at the bottom like everyone else and learned from the many posters before me and networked to meet new people with similar interests. If steemit collapses, those with much invested have the most to lose. So I believe they are thinking up ways for everyone to have a bigger voice regardless of their current size in the ecosystem.

$0.00

egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

And before it finally collapses, they have a method for making tons of money off the ponzi scheme.

Minnows won't notice until the platform is already dying. Oh well, no skin off my back.

Enjoy your spam platform :)

$0.00

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

See for this to be a ponzi scheme you would be forced to invest money. Find me another ponzi scheme that gives away money to people for joining and I will join there as well. And if you truly believed this, why would you be wasting your time here?

$0.00

egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago (edited)

I know it's not a traditional ponzi scheme. That doesn't change the fact that it's entirely useless as a content aggregator, since only whale posts are ever seen.

This site is going to die in a matter of months once regular users realize that

1 - Content is 100% Stagnant: Only spam from whales reaches the front page, regardless of how many votes are given by regular users

2 - There's no incentive to post or upvote anything interesting because of #1

3 - Because of #2, people will leave

I get it: you want to ignore the glaring flaw because it benefits you. That doesn't make it a valid reason.

$0.00

bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

I love the content @stellabelle puts out along with almost everything @rok-sivante writes. If you read their articles and still believe that this site is stagnant then I would encourage you to find me another place where I can find:

Similar content
A place where comments are thoughtful
A place where you can interact with people regardless of how much money is in your wallet

If you can find those elsewhere please tell me. But I believe you are truly missing out, but the decision to stay or go lies solely upon you.

$0.00

jamtaylor (71) · 8 years ago (edited)

I can dig it.

We can call it sponsorship or employment, I like to call it a 'patron' the way an artist has a patron, but it's pretty much the same thing.

$1.04

10 votes

jl777 (62) · 8 years ago

I did an analysis of the top posts in July based on a compressed ranking system of 1 minnow, 2 dolphin, 3 whale, 4 megawhale: https://steemit.com/steemit/@jl777/top-posts-for-july-rank-calculated-by-minnow-1-dolphin-2-whale-3-megawhale-4

if you look at the breakdown you will find that the whales liked what everybody else liked and vice versa. There is a discussion about the visibility gained from having a whale vote, but if you look at the ratio between whale votes and the dolphin votes, it is surprisingly in a narrow range.

if anything, the numbers show that minnows are not voting much at all and thus are losing their power to influence steemit content.

There is a security reason that whale votes payout so much, but it takes a whitepaper to explain the details. The important thing to know is that there is no whale conspiracy. I also did another analysis of whales voting for whales as some people think that is going on, but it isnt.

Now the way the math works, either the whales vote the big amounts and some people get disproportionate rewards or NOBODY does. So if you keep complaining about whale votes, then even when your post finally gets to the main trending page you will end up with $200 instead of $2000.

Be careful what you ask for! Only a small percentage of posts win the lotto each day, but everyone has a chance of being the lucky writer, IF you are posting.

Good luck and let us be happy that there is a system that pays out anything for you doing what you probably would be doing anyway

$0.91

6 votes

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

Also, seriously? trying to distract people from economic disparity with a lottery. kind of a bad guy cliche. im just sayin

jl777 (62) · 8 years ago

lotto as in SHA256 hashing when mining, since blogging is the new mining

$0.00

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

mining wasnt even the new mining. but k get the ref.

That said, it kind of is like a lottery, right? We all buy tickets to fund whats allegedly a public service , like a hospital or a $20K intro post or some dude saying "before i found steemit i couldnt afford underpants now im rich buy steem". And in return we get a miniscule chance to get a big jackpot.

jl777 (62) · 8 years ago

maybe at first that is what it is, but as the userbase grows it will need speciality content and we are already seeing some of that, ie https://steemit.com/trending/science No nobelprize winning papers (yet), but I wouldnt be surprised if in the future serious papers are posted on steemit. I mean why not? it pays better than most other places even at $10 a post

how old is steemit? What percentage of its evolution have we seen? Sure it isnt perfect but I dont see anything else that is anywhere close, that is why I am here trying to improve it.

tl:dr babies do silly things, but that doesnt mean they cant create serious work given time

$0.16

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

replying here due to nesting.

Pick a position. Either the system works OK now, which was your original point that i replied to, or its an evolving crying baby and itll be better one day.

And the user base won't grow, at least not the paid userbase. Because a dozen or so people like the op have the system locked into a liquidity trap, and TPTB are so committed to it at this point that they refuse to back out on principle.

And if its an evolving crying baby, isnt it harmful to say "everyone who wants it to evolve is just a jealous, greedy idiot (OPs exact point in this and other posts).

Also, im not sure what im supposed to be looking at in science. I see one popst by gavvet (who runs a little cottage industry where he charges authors to post their posts because they know that he has a better chance of getting upvotes with the same content) thats a picture of some rocks. And one post that s a summary of some magazine articles written last year.

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

as was pointed out in that post, its just as easy to attribute that effect to the exposure that they get from being pinned to the top of trending.

Now the way the math works, either the whales vote the big amounts and some people get disproportionate rewards or NOBODY does

If youre saying that it will result in a more even distribution of rewards, that i agree with. I just don't think its a bad thing. The only way to pay people like you and rok 4K every time you post is to pay everyone else pretty much nothing almost always.

Its easy to support a "lotto" when you win the lotto every time you play. But most people have to lose nearly every time they play in order to finance fixing the game in your favor. The lotto system is mainly going to attract people like you, who win everytime they play, and spammers, reposters etc, who want to get their ticket with as little work as possible.

Now yeah, its unfair. But thats not even the point. The point is most of these authors are putting out putting out low quality posts (IMO youre an exception).

Like that list you posted, its not even as bad as the money list but doesn't that make you cringe?

jl777 (62) · 8 years ago

Look at my blog history, I have written an entire liquidity points system and it got a whopping $8. So i dont win the lotto everytime, far from it. I write 10 posts that get $10 for every one that gets more than $1000, I think that is better than most, but I do write deep incisive content of a fairly unique nature :)

from a systems point giving someone 25 bitcoins for finding the right random number that generates a good hash with lots of leading 0's vs. someone who writes a random post, it has similar distribution characteristics.

Look at my list again. look at the RATIO of whale vs dolphin vs minnow votes. While a whale upvoting gives a post more visibility and thus a larger expected return, it wouldnt give a disproportionate response. There are posts that have 1 whale vote others with 10+, generally speaking the distribution of other classes of votes follows similar ratios.

that tells me that what whales like, others like. what whales really like, others really like. whales are just normal people who won their form of lotto and if they are active, people get bigger awards.if they are inactive, they gradually lose their stake as it gets diluted by people who are posting.

also when you are a minnow, one big post and you multiply your Mv. when a whale, nothing you do will boost it even fractionally. while it does feel unfair to see low quality posts getting big payouts, it is identical to low diff hashes winning 50 BTC in the beginning. As more and more competition arises, the threshold for the high payout posts should go up.

Is it?

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

Look at my blog history, I have written an entire liquidity points system and it got a whopping $8. So i dont win the lotto everytime, far from it. I write 10 posts that get $10 for every one that gets more than $1000.

Yeah, some of your posts don't do that well. And you probably know exactly why that is. Its the same reason youre a 7 (AAMOF, i suspect the bots use a similar profile to the rep system). You probably also know that the effects of that will wear down over time as you get more votes.

I get the bitcoin analogy. I really do. and ill admit to not being a huge crypto guy. But isnt the "mining world" super shitty in btc? Like basically everyone has been chased out except the big pools? You really think people will want to buy into that... come to steemit its just like mining bitcoin!

Look at my list again. look at the RATIO of whale vs dolphin vs minnow votes. While a whale upvoting gives a post more visibility and thus a larger expected return, it wouldnt give a disproportionate response. There are posts that have 1 whale vote others with 10+, generally speaking the distribution of other classes of votes follows similar ratios.

Unless the additional whale votes moved it further up the page (they do) or kept it near the top longer (they do)

So you get one decent sized whale vote and that puts you on the front page... two gets you moved up a spot. until you get to a certain threshold where you get enough to be at the very top. Now, additional whale votes can keep you there for a whole month.

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

This is why youre a 7, and probably why you don't get as much bot love as some. https://steemit.com/money/@jl777/steem-price-might-double-next-week-liquidity-awards-to-be-temporarily-suspended-new-supply-of-liquid-steem-to-be-reduced.

You had a post killed by a high power voter.

If it wasnt for a couple huge posts it probably would have banned you outright.

nice try with the brute force analysis, but wordplay isnt going to cloud the issue.

Its not a comparison between whale on whale and non-whale on whale thats relevant. Its a comparison between whale on whale and whale on non whale. its a cute tounge twister though.

jl777 (62) · 8 years ago

I dont know why I am a 7, you got me there. bitcoin mining is dominated by big miners, that is kind of why steemit is cool. anybody can "mine" a lotto post. no need to be able compile unix daemons and setup a miner to get free crypto

I already did a brute force statistical analysis and whale on whale voting is below non-whale for whale voting, except for a few accounts that I think have bots, like wang

$0.00

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

thanks for your insightful contribution to the discussion, @jl777.

I haven't been in the crypto scene too long, though recall your name sticking out as being a highly-respected figure in the community, having been a key player in a number of significant projects - as such, your input is greatly respected and appreciated.

$0.00

ooak (56) · 8 years ago

The thing is that currently I see "whales" as guard dogs of steemit.
They decide which content is deemed good enough for the front page. It's good and bad. I wrote about it on my blog about "true power of whales" where their hidden agendas can impact the content we see and don't see. simple example is @berniesanders votes for weed topics.
I think that currently it's good because whales understand their powers and they are heavily invested in the platform so they decide to reward quality content that gives value instead of meme like content that can succeed in reddit.
I don't know how many whales bots are there bot that's one way of spreading the wealth he has. if he doesn't have the time to vote with 3 users and search good posts everyday so he decides to reward good content writers. by doing so those writers will act as his proxies and keep spreading the wealth.

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

so they decide to reward quality content that gives value instead of meme like content that can succeed in reddit.

If this were true, it would be great. Its not. I invite you to take a look at the top 100 money earning posts and judge the quaity for yourself.

thecryptofiend (74) · 8 years ago

I can see both sides of the issue. Steemit reflects the real world in the distribution of wealth. I suppose the difference here is that the people at the top are trying to and are encouraged to redistribute the wealth using their votes. As time goes on the inequality should go down. It is unlikely to go away but I don't think we can expect a platform like Steemit to solve a problem that is as old as civilisation. That would simply be unrealistic.

I have been critical of @steemed in the past, not because I have anything against him rewarding a certain group of writers which he likes but more for the issue of using bots. This is my personal opinion though and I suppose as long as he at least reviews the choices of his bots to make sure that people aren't posting complete garbage or copy paste posting other people's work I don't think any great wrong is being done.

I think part of the problem here is that there are a few people who are whales. They are not super human. They have limited time like the rest of us and there is a limit to what they can do or see.

That's why in the past I have suggested giving people the ability to delegate their voting power for short periods. A whale who is short of time could nominate someone whose opinion and curation they respect to use their voting power for say a week.

This person would then be able to vote as if they were that whale. This would not only bring fresh perspective and diversity but would also help to fight accusations of favouritism. I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement as I'm not a programmer.

I sympathise with those who feel frustrated as it can seem that good material is getting overlooked. Like I said - this happens all the time in real life. There are probably millions of great writers, artists, musicians who will never make it big or have their work appreciated to the degree they deserve.

Steemit is trying to improve things but it can't and won't ever be perfect. It is a work in progress. As long as we all do our bit to up-vote content we like and reward (no matter how small it may be) good material we are all helping to move things in the right direction.

Also I have been reading work by both @rok-sivante and @stellabelle and I have yet to come across anything that I would deem to be of low quality or not deserving a like. If they did post something like that I must have missed it.

I personally think there is a big future for Steemit that's why this last night and this morning I doubled my SP from around 1000 to 2000. That may be laughably small to most people but it is a lot for me and shows how much I believe in this platform.

Anyway sorry for the long response. In summary I think we all need to be realistic everyone can't become rich overnight in real life and it isn't realistic to expect that in Steemit.

Thanks for reading:)

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

no apology necessary, mate. your contribution to the discussion is very much appreciated. :-)

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thecryptofiend (74) · 8 years ago

Thanks:)

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wiser (58) · 8 years ago

Thanks for the detailed explanation. To me, the word "whale" just means someone who owns a lot of Steem Power (in the trading platform trollboxes, it tends to mean someone who owns a lot of whatever coin was being discussed), so I've never meant it to be derogatory in any way.

I'm in learning curve mode right now, trying to figure out how to break in. I'm experimenting with different types of posts, and I'm also reading and commenting on other people's work. Hopefully I can figure out where I fit into this community soon.

I don't have a problem with the way it's set up. Most innovations come with a tremendous early adopter advantage. I've been fortunate to have that advantage with some of the other innovations in the Cryptosphere, NEM being a good example. I don't happen to be an early adopter of Steem, but that doesn't mean I don't see lots of potential upside ahead.

Still, I did have some questions, many of which were thoroughly answered in the article, so thank you very much for posting it :)

$0.12

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

your welcome.

Keep experimenting. sometimes, there's no shortcuts to mining the gold within yourself - just persistent effort in testing out several different approaches, learning from every bit of feedback. Become a student of VALUE and consistently work to pack as much value as superhumanly possible into every piece you write, keep improving your skills, and eventually the investment in yourself and the community will pay off - as long as you keep your integrity in order. ;-)

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wiser (58) · 8 years ago

That is great advice, especially the last part about keeping the integrity in order. Thanks :)

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

I haven't yet talked to @steemed or the other "whales" using bots, so don't know the details of how their algorithms are setup. But not all my posts get the bots' votes. There are more detailed criteria to be met for a post to be upvoted than just an author being on the bot list.
And granted, if I or any of the other authors on the list were to slack off, take the opportunity for granted, and start posting absolute shit - we would no doubt, fairly, get removed from the bot list.

No offence, though i suppose youll take offense, but yes. Most of the "bot bait" authors posts are very low quality, including this one, and many of your other posts. Most of your posts read like get rich quick informercials. And youre not even close to the only one. Maybe it was different at one time, but when someone gets paid thousands of dollars for every single post, regardless of quality, it stands to reason that theyll continue to post low quality content even when they have nothing substantive to say. This phenomena is called a liquidity trap.

Your point seems to be that you and these other "chosen" authors are better and smarter than the rest of us, and bring more value to the site. Fair enough, but i seriously doubt you could find any objective third party that would look at the quality of posts from them and see anything special, on average.

Some posters paid by bots don't even post original work, they made thousands reposting other peoples copyrighted pictures. A few have been exposed as catfish. More are C+P spammers.

At the end of the day, your logic is circular. You claim that these individuals have chosen to pay you all this money because of the quality of the content you bring. Yet the only evidence you cite to support that conclusion is that they choose to pay you.

and yes, looks like every single post of yours gets upvoted by the same people, but you already knew that.

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

links to the posts that were NOT upvoted by the bots provided in response to your request for them in the other comment.

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sisterholics (64) · 8 years ago

ok, i mean i feel like this is a good explanation, but at the same time it still seems unfair that its the early adopters that stand to benefit and i can totally see why some people are pointing fingers and saying that there is a conspiracy. @rok-sivante can you really put your hand on your heart and claim that all of your posts were worthy up generating as much steem and upvoting as they have received?

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stellabelle (75) · 8 years ago (edited)

But all of us started out at zero. When I came into Steemit, there were whales. I was at zero.
I was also mind-boggled about the wealth of ned and dan and the miners. It was intimidating to say the least. My strategy from the beginning was this: what can I offer Steemit that absolutely no one else is able to offer? By using this scarcity method, I stood out. I was among the first women on Steemit, too. It could have turned out very differently though. Hard work, focused effort, and daily grind rewarded me. Also, I spent huge chunks of time commenting on other people's posts. I also would spend hours daily welcoming people, and making sure they felt comfortable, and really, I took it upon myself to do four jobs in Steemit because I liked Steemit better than my day job: 1. creation of posts 2. Welcoming newbies 3. Commenting and sharing my opinion with others who I found fascination. 4. Learned in-depth Steemit philosophy from Dan Larimer's blog, then communicated, as much as possible those principles.
The first weeks were spent learning, absorbing and understanding. The feeling of envy was replaced by fascination. But yeah, I did feel jealousy in the beginning because I had no money to invest. I looked around and thought, ok, "No one is commenting because in early days there was no reward for commenting. I decided to comment because I could see the bigger picture of the marketplace in future. I thought I would focus on the people, who would later become my allies, my traders, my teachers, my friends. Friends do business with friends. Having a place where we could instantly see who to trust and who not to trust was a big enlightening moment. I saw what was coming in the future, and i invested heavily in people, and I didn't try to "game" the system like a lot of the early bros. Now the bot owners have a tech edge on me, I realize that. I tried to maximize my human side, a side that the bots cannot compete with: geniune sharing of ideas, that go deeper than the rest.

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prufarchy (68) · 8 years ago

This! your blog was one of the first that really grabbed me, before I even fully understood what all this steemit stuff was about. This is the perfect advice, and it still holds right now. When Steemit hits the 1 million Steemian, this advice will still be as relevant to new steemians as it was when you executed :)

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

yes, because there will always be newbies that come in, not understanding the system - but more importantly, misunderstanding VALUE.

It took over 10 years of studying Wealth Dynamics until it really started sinking in, integrating, and being put into practice as I persisted through my own bouts of discouragement on Steemit.

Steemit is its own economy, as @andrarchy explains in this excellent post/video of his - and at the core of every economy is the basic principle of VALUE CREATION & EXCHANGE.

people that don't understand these fundamentals are likely to project the frustration outward in the wrong places, but at the end of the day, its each our own responsibility to learn the rules of the game - and to earn our way by providing VALUE, which may also come in the form of assisting others in learning the rules of the game and how to navigate their ways through new territory...

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

But all of us started out at zero.

Apples and oranges. You didnt start out in a different chat system and with a ton of whale attracted spammers knocking everything immediately off the front page. For all your hard work that you are reflecting on (and i don't discount it), would mean zero now if you werent posting from a known account. You'd get ignored because most of the whales don't pay enough attention to see the smart woman, they just vote on the good looking catfish, or on known names from the crypto world.

The first weeks were spent learning, absorbing and understanding. The feeling of envy was replaced by fascination. But yeah, I did feel jealousy in the beginning because I had no money to invest.

I obviously can't speak to what you yourself felt. But both in the OP and in other posts similar to this, as well as in your comment, the strong implication is made that thinking the quality of your posts does not justify the magnitude of reward they get is based on jealousy or envy.

For me it is not. Its about quality. I guess youve been involved in this for a while now... so tell me the truth, look at the top 40 or so posts in money payout for july, or even at JLs list, posted int eh comments below. Don't your realize that these are the types of posts that are going to send people running from steemit? Don't you get that how scammy they look.

infovore (72) · 8 years ago (edited)

Obligatory input... Stop mudslinging. Just stop... If you still cant comprehend how non-natives who have spent their entire life learning and writing in English do it. Please stop the name tagging..... We both know what im talking about...

Assumptions are really bad ..."I think" ...Please spend your limited useful time on yourself. Namaste....

$4.27

12 votes

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

Actually, I apologize for the part of the post to which you were likely responding (which i have edited out). I had initially posted my doubts about your story in your thread. However, i decided shortly after posting that it was not worth the hassle and deleted it. When i wrote the sentence that reffed you above, i forgot i had never posted anything about it.

I can't be 100% certain that your story isnt true, but it seems fake to me for a variety of reasons, only one which is your diction.

It seems very likely to me that many others noticed what i noticed as well. the post would certainly cause a non-biased person to question the veracity of your claims.
Had you not been one of the chosen few, this would have likely been brought up at the time you posted.

However, i will not broach the subject again. I decided to let sleeping dogs lie at the time and ill abide by that decision.

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

Replying here due to nesting

Stella, I was unaware that you had verified his identity. I run a law practice mainly focused on helping non-us residents do business in the US , and I have clients from every continent except antartica, including africa. Educated people from other cultures are what keep me fed and housed.

Though i concede my suspicions were ultimately untrue, they were neither based on prejudice or malice

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

incidentally, i have no idea what name tagging is. EDIT: oh i get it. Labeling.

stellabelle (75) · 8 years ago (edited)

I knew infovore from other social media sites. Questioning his identity after a respected Steemian has verified his identity is just wasting time.
American ignorance about educated Africans is the cause of a lot of this.
Once you realize that just because someone is African, doesn't mean that they are uneducated, you'll start to see the light. Being a middle-class African is also something Americans cannot fathom. Many people from undeveloped countries are educated, you just never see them on mainstream news.

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egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

The spammiest, clickbait content gets to the top. It's obvious that Steemit is not working as a content aggregation platform at all, since content is stagnant as hell, and of extremely low quality.

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jupiter00000 (60) · 8 years ago (edited)

Yes. This place is a feedback loop. Whales choose to promote corporate sales pitches for Steemit rather than truly great content. Great content creators such as myself are already back on Reddit, where at least you have a chance to spark a cool conversation. I had a post at the top of reddit AND at the BOTTOM of Steemit at the same exact time. It was pretty telling to me. Thats just me - I am abandoning ship because this place is boring, and nobody here has an interest in my adorable ferrets, epic pictures or even crypto-news bits because its not directly in line with the Steemit Corporate Propaganda Machine. This is just another place where rich people decide what you should be paying attention to. I live in the USA, and this style of corporatism is getting dull. Its not very decentralized when the same 10 people are on the front page from day to day, or when 4 out of the 5 top posts are from Whales. And then there's gotta be one post from a girl with big boobs littering steemit balloons all over the beach.

Im pretty much done with Steemit.

However, all this money will have a huge impact. Its going to turn into a big corporate church. Dont want Hillary to be president of the USA? The whales will never vote for your post again.

Have an extreme belief?

A harsh critique of the platform?

Prepare to be blacklisted.

Otherwise known as a rich-man's circlejerk.

I have yet to see a woman with SMALL boobs at the top of Steemit.

I have yet to see something cute at the top of Steemit. People hate my ferrets for some reason. Why? Because I didn't shave "Steemit" into their fur.

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jasoncarswell (46) · 7 years ago (edited)

Steemit is the new Scientology.
Whales are the new celebrity Scientologist.
The technocracy is here for your good.
Believe or be ignored.
Go back to work debt slave.

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jupiter00000 (60) · 8 years ago (edited)

You are one of the lucky ones. Not all of us are so lucky to 1: be a woman or 2: be Dan's favorite. This place is just another aggregation of what wealthy people want you to see. I live in the USA. I know how these systems work. I am an anti-corporate anarchist and therefore my posts will never see the light of day because I lack the corporate salesmanship to make Steemit products and link every one of my pure and hopeful creations to the Steemit worldview. I just dont fit in, and theres nothing that will change that. I can post identical stories to Steemit and Reddit - and get 1000+ Reddit votes and 7 Steemit bot votes and 12 Steemit bot comments. Reddit accounts are worth roughly $10 for every 1000 upvotes.

$0.05

6 votes

egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

This exactly. As it is, Steemit is simply a giant advertising space for the whales. Original content is never seen because normal users don't have the weight to push it up, even voting in the hundreds, and whales don't care about real content: just whatever will make them the most profit.

$0.03

jupiter00000 (60) · 8 years ago (edited)

This place is a feedback loop. Whales choose to promote corporate sales pitches for Steemit rather than truly great content. Great content creators such as myself are already back on Reddit, where at least you have a chance to spark a cool conversation. I had a post at the top of reddit AND at the BOTTOM of Steemit at the same exact time. It was pretty telling to me. Thats just me - I am abandoning ship because this place is boring, and nobody here has an interest in my adorable ferrets, epic pictures or even crypto-news bits because its not directly in line with the Steemit Corporate Propaganda Machine. This is just another place where rich people decide what you should be paying attention to. I live in the USA, and this style of corporatism is getting dull. Its not very decentralized when the same 10 people are on the front page from day to day, or when 4 out of the 5 top posts are from Whales. And then there's gotta be one post from a girl with big boobs littering steemit balloons all over the beach.

Im pretty much done with Steemit.

However, all this money will have a huge impact. Its going to turn into a big corporate church. Dont want Hillary to be president of the USA? The whales will never vote for your post again.

Have an extreme belief?

A harsh critique of the platform?

Prepare to be blacklisted.

Otherwise known as a rich-man's circlejerk.

I have yet to see a woman with SMALL boobs at the top of Steemit.

$0.09

4 votes

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

I started the following comment on one of your posts, though felt it'd be better to post here, as it'll gain more exposure. (I've read a few of your different posts, and this comment is equally applicable, speaking to the common theme throughout them)...

one perspective...

herein lies an opportunity to make something of the opportunity for content CURATION.

there may be alot of great posts that don't get noticed, yes. SO, therein lies an opportunity to help bring attention to them...

what about a daily/weekly "The Top 10 Best Daily/Weekly Diamonds In The Rough" type curation...?

if someone were to step up and do this, ensuring the highest quality of both the curating posts and the curated posts, sooner or later, they'd get attention.

Over time, the creme rises to the top. Persistence IS required. And so is different forms of marketing & promotion.

Many posts may have great content, but lack something in the delivery. i.e. a person can be brilliant and have great writing skills, but if they don't know how to craft a killer headline and choose a great picture to go with it, their posts aren't going to get opened nearly as much as if those particular skills are developed and exercised.

The system's not perfect. But there are advantages in that if forces people to step up their game and increase their skills and value to the community, if they're committed to the long term game.

those who keep playing eventually WILL get noticed, and as they keep at it and gain exposure through others who recognize their value, will get rewarded...

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thecryptofiend (74) · 8 years ago

I can see both sides of the argument to be honest and tend to flip back and forth:)

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jupiter00000 (60) · 8 years ago

Me too. Totally bi-polar. My enthusiasm for crypto fuels my faith sometimes. Then I see the corrupt nature of this beast. Then I try to submit to the beast and tattoo a Steemit Logo on my face. Now Im finally on the front page of Steemit!

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

yes, I was lucky. and the harder I worked, the luckier I got. "Luck = preparation meets opportunity," as they say. The opportunity was Steemit. The preparation was 15 years of study and skills development. And surely the entire time I've been completely focused at writing high-quality material to add value to the community since getting on Steemit - from the time I wake to go to sleep - might have also played a factor in that luck.

looking at your post history right off the bat, your posts may not see the light of day because first of all, they don't have value-packed headlines. without that alone, most people won't bother opening them, because there's no promise or demonstration of value delivered from the onset that is worth readers' investment of time, when there are other headlines that capture attention right from the onset. corporate salesmanship is NOT needed. though some basic copywriting skills - which CAN be developed if the time and effort is put into learning the game and developing the skills - will go a long ways - just as a start...

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lichtblick (78) · 8 years ago

Thanks for sharing :-)

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jackkang (50) · 8 years ago

good

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iamrohitkgupta (47) · 8 years ago

Inspirational, motivational and enlightening!
Keep up the good work.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

yes. yes. yes.
perfectly articulated. :-)

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margot (54) · 8 years ago

This is so true. Takes time to build something. I love your approach. So true bots can't compete with geniune sharing od ideas, that go deeper than the rest...Love it :)

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egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

Yeah, everyone started at zero.... except whales who deposited hundreds of thousands of USD into their accounts in order to give themselves massive vote weight, so that it is trivial to send their own posts (sockpuppets') to the front page, thereby gaining even more weight.

Nothing that is written by regular users who don't have millions in their accounts is ever seen at the top. Content is incredibly stagnant, sitting there for a week or more at a time, since only whales can push stories to the front.

It's a crap system because it inherently discourages participation unless you are already a whale and can game the system for massive profits.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

"Nothing that is written by regular users who don't have millions in their accounts is ever seen at the top"

Incorrect. The amount in a user's account has nothing to do with their rewards, as it is voters that determine the rewards. newbies have stepped in and made thousands on their very first post, with zero in their accounts.

"It's a crap system because it inherently discourages participation unless you are already a whale and can game the system for massive profits."

the Slack chat (now Rocket Chat) is open for anyone to come and participate in. it's a brilliant system because it's open and transparent.

a newbie may not have huge voting power, but they have equal opportunity to create exceptionally-valuable content and reach out to connect with the whales or anyone in between.

all are free to join in on the discussions and self-promote. and those who CONSISTENTLY produce exceptional VALUE inevitably do get noticed.

I started at zero. I've done well because the incentivization structure IS ITSELF encouragement for quality participation. The earliest adopters may have had an advantage by getting in at the beginning, but everyone is free to step up, create massive value, build relationships, and earn their way to wherever they choose in life - IF they understand the core necessity of creating VALUE, maintaining integrity, learning the rules of the game, and respectfully contributing to the community's advancement.

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egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

Sorry but I call bullshit. I've looked into some of these supposed "newbies who made thousands off their first post" and every single one powered their account and/or used sock puppets with powered accounts to drive bunk "content" to the top.

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cire81 (42) · 8 years ago

I am looking at mining steem instead where the reward is 90% while content sharing is 10%. Think it will suit me better to provide mining resources than to write and post. Honestly for content posting i am better off monetizing with adsense. However in terms of activities and meeting new people steemit has certainly serve its usefulness.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

oh man, I wish I knew how to mine and get in on that. but, those sort of technical aspects aren't my forte - such my opportunity lies in writing; and for others, it may lie in curation or creating other kinds of content. though of course, mining is a fundamental value required for the whole system to work - so by all means, the rewards that are there for it are well-deserved for those who've learnt how to play that game and have dedicated themselves to providing that service to the community.

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

most of the money has gone out of mining. After block 800K something, mining rewards got cut down to 1/10th of what they were.. thats why blocktrades and the badger guy were trying to sell off their miner accounts.

my 8 core vps instance gets 40K hashes /sec, and typically gets 1 or 2 POWS (worth 1 steem) a day. I think higher ranked witnesses get more POW opportunities, but im not sure exactly how it works.

but if youre just talking about setting up a rig and letting it run, its probably not going to pay for itself.

$0.50

queenmountain (64) · 8 years ago

Ah, yes. That is what i decided to do on Steemit, bring something unique. 5 days in, I've been focusing on posts that are unique to me, I'm (mostly) not trying to hedge or rig or figure out the bestest or greatest way to be popular or make dough. I am also female and have been fascinated by crypto currency since the birth of bitcoin. So for me, Steem has been a great experience and I like commenting for the sake of commenting. I really have high hopes for this platform, it has made me realize that Facebook is one big giant ripoff machine making big dough off of millions of contributors. Well said miss, well said.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

re:

"I've been focusing on posts that are unique to me, I'm (mostly) not trying to hedge or rig or figure out the bestest or greatest way to be popular or make dough"

There's a middle ground, and it takes some experimentation to find...

On one hand, Originality is required - that personal passion creating something unique to ourselves.

Though also, what is valuable to the community is determined by the community.

There is a meeting point between those two, that at least for myself, took some trial & error to find. Not all of what we think will be valuable to others. But, there is GOLD within some of what we have to offer. The more experimentation, the faster that gold may be discovered - and once we clue into what those common elements are in the successful stories that effectively bridge that gap between what's important to us and what others find valuable... Therein lies the formula for success...

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handsolo (62) · 8 years ago

Nice one @stellabelle :D. I like your energy

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

she's badass.

seriously. ever since I've gotten on the site, @stellabelle has stood out as one of the top leaders among the pack with her writing. she deserves every Steem Dollar she's earned by being a walking, living, breathing role model for consistently creating outstanding value for the community.

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heruglyphics (25) · 8 years ago

I am new to steemit! thank you for sharing this! Now I have a better idea as to how I should conduct myself!!!

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prufarchy (68) · 8 years ago

I fail to see how it is relevant how @rok-sivante may feel about his own posts because others have found value in them and have rewarded the posts appropriately.

Early adopters in Bitcoin got their coins for tens of dollars. Are we calling unfair the advantage this has given the risk takers who believed in BTC? I mean, I guess you could make that argument, but I'm not sure it would hold much water.

I enjoy @rok-sivante's writing and I often upvote his work. Are all of his posts worthy of generating that much steem? I can't answer that, but I can definitely say he writes well and overall I don't think he's overcompensated on this platform.

I'm definitely not trying to be harsh, but this isn't a free money give away, it's a social network. I'm of the mind that he'd be as popular on another social network as he is here, based on the threesome story alone... Those who think he's getting over somehow should study his work and let it inspire them to improve their writing skills and to build their reputation.

$0.14

4 votes

thecryptofiend (74) · 8 years ago

Agreed. Early adopters always have an advantage. It's not fair but it's the way the world works. Nobody has come up with a better way of doing it. It is no different from if you invested $1000 in a share of Apple when it was operating out of Steve Job's garage - by now it would be worth billions, whereas if you invested $1000 dollars now it would get you a couple of shares. In this case Steemit is at least giving out mini-shares to everyone.

$0.00

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

Some yes, some no.

But taking ego out of it, I can see why some got more and some less. And thankfully, I've had posts where the bots DIDN'T vote, for which I'm grateful.

And at the end, its a humbling blessing - one that's made me take it even more seriously about what type of content to produce. It's a high degree of accountability, and a certain pressure to live up to the higher standards - which is cool, because creating value for others is what it should be about; though also stressful at times because sometimes there is stuff I might like to write about that I don't think would be worth that much - but then the ego's gotta go out the window again, refocusing that the effort is better spent focusing on what IS of the highest value...

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

And thankfully, I've had posts where the bots DIDN'T vote, for which I'm grateful.

link please? because it doesnt look that way.

Also, ftr this is the same guy who said that the reason most authors don't make any money here is that theyre so stupid they dont know theyre stupid. just ftr... so the leave the ego at the door thing.

https://steemit.com/writing/@rok-sivante/how-neilstrauss-changed-the-game-my-life-and-impacted-millions-through-his-writing-why-this-man-deserves-a-standing-ovation-and

rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

https://steemit.com/steemit/@rok-sivante/the-top-seven-tips-for-steemit-newbies-to-overcome-discouragement-keep-your-head-in-the-game-and-get-on-track-to-earning-top

https://steemit.com/crypto-news/@rok-sivante/the-ico-of-icos-the-raw-dirty-low-down-on-ronny-boesing-s-decentralized-conglomerate-s-latest-crypto-catalyst-icoo

re: " this is the same guy who said that the reason most authors don't make any money here is that theyre so stupid they dont know theyre stupid. just ftr... so the leave the ego at the door thing."

can you please provide the direct quote and link to where this was stated?

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sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago

lol the game. its worth noting that not only did you make more money than most ppl do, you did so in spite of tag spam, which is probably why you got no sweet sweet bot love.... the two top ones were when they started cracking down, then after that the UI started stripping off the extra tags.... then it stopped and that was the ICO one. I only note this because us mere mortals get flagged for that.

ill look for the article it was the one about the dunning kreiger effect though... i know you made the glib little disclaimer that "oh im not talking about you" but the point was clear, and also shitty imo.

$0.00

sigmajin (65) · 8 years ago (edited)

can you please provide the direct quote and link to where this was stated?

goddamnit. im HOP today
https://steemit.com/smallpost/@andrarchy/why-your-post-isn-t-getting-any-love-the-dunning-kruger-effect

though it wouldnt be so easy to get all you guys confused if you didnt hit up the same talking points.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago (edited)

hmm. thanks for the head's up on the tag issue.

I wouldn't view it as spam, as kept the tags relevant to the content. though very good to know if there's been some changes to crack down on using too many tags.

that dunning kruger article also damn good. kinda got my head spinning. (a good thing, really - breaking down some ego). :-)

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shiba (37) · 8 years ago

I think your ego-out the window approach is very sound. But I must say, in the extremely short period I've spent on Steemit, lots of content that hit trending was honestly sub-par and NOT deserving of the value it made, from a business and marketing point of view.

Since trending seems to be the be all end all to a post being visible and 'sticky', a few authors dominating it through pure SLOTH on the bot owner's side seems like an absolute failure of the system's integrity.

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sisterholics (64) · 8 years ago

Thanks for replying and this post, its helped me to see a more human side to things and show that its not just about $$$

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bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

That's one of the things I love most about steemit. The draw is initially the money, but it really is so much more than that, and at the end of the day the money becomes secondary to helping others who have become your friends. Just like the whitepaper says, it is a sort of reverse crab in the bucket analogy where each crab helps push the the other up and the crabs that have made it out reach back and help to lift up those who helped them in the first place. If you can name another site where this occurs, I'm all ears, but I doubt one will be found.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

YES.

I did go through my own phases of being swayed by dollar signs. But as I persisted through the discouragement of seeing some intro posts getting thousands of rewards while mine got $32 and kept refocusing on creating VALUE for the community, something shifted in my brain and I began seeing much greater possibilities for what can be created here, that is totally separate from the financial side of things.

Many people will bitch about not making money and how unfair things are. But if you dig into their post histories, you will find a very predictable pattern that such people do not understand the fundamental principle that VALUE is rewarded. nothing else.

there are essentially five types of value. you could analyze posts all day long and break down why the highly rewarded posts get what they do, based on how highly they rank in the 5 different types of value. it's not chance. it's a science.

and in the end, the finances flow to the VALUE - value that enhances users experiences, is informative, inspirational, entertaining, original, and is well-delivered. in the end, it's all about providing VALUE. ;-)

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egabragsiyrallih (51) · 8 years ago

I'm leaving Steemit as soon as my account is powered down over this crap.

Right now due to the way everything works, Steemit operates like a ponzi scheme for enriching the early whales and their friends.

It also causes the entire platform to be stagnant - the same threads from the front are still there from a week ago. Due to the way vote-weighting works, only the threads that whales upvote are even seen at all.

It's completely broken and irredeemable.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago (edited)

your pessimism will not be missed, once you do leave. :-)

and your honest feedback IS still appreciated. pessimistic perspectives do have their value, too.

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thecryptofiend (74) · 8 years ago

It's the same with everything though. The first people who mined bitcoin are multi-millionaires for running what at the time was a relatively low power app on their laptops.

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orly (41) · 8 years ago

The problem is the ratio of minnow/whale vote value. Not only because of the reward distribution, but also visibility.
A new account's vote is worth about $0.0001, so it takes like a hundred minnow upvotes for a post to make a cent. And even then, it has nowhere near the visibility of a post upvoted by a single whale with a vote worth $300.
A lot of people do not look further than the trending/hot pages and no amount of minnow votes will launch a post there.
I've written more about this issue and some provide some suggestions here: https://steemit.com/steem/@orly/how-to-fix-the-extreme-inequality-on-steem

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5 votes

jennamarbles (57) · 8 years ago (edited)

I agree with you! at the majority, discontent is caused not by(with) the number of the earned reward and the fact that these upvotebots interfere with natural posts ranking by strengthening their current popularity, as they create the illusion of their exclusivity, upvaluing them in comparison with the others. Users begin to follow the authors, not even reading their posts, just hoping for further increase in value. It is human psychology.

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orly (41) · 8 years ago

illusion of their exclusivity

I like this expression, but to me it seems like it's not really an illusion, but rather the true state of things at the moment.
A lot of the same authors are pushed to the trending page every day by whale bots, and even if their content is of acceptable quality, I'd much rather see 30 unknown authors' quality posts recieve $100 and some visibility each than the same whale-backed author receive $3000 every day.

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sandwich (60) · 8 years ago (edited)

My big question is this: if there is a long term vested interest in Steem, can someone please explain why the largest stakeholder @steemit is powering down 100% of its vests, at $1M a week? This account holds 60% of all steem in the supply, and does not use its voting power for wealth redistribution. The only logical reason I could see for this is overhead and expenses, but I personally have a very difficult time believing Steemit.com has a $4M a month burn rate. This would be a non issue in my eyes if @steemit was vested, not powering down and voted on content. The lack of the latter logically and rightfully gives me doubts about long-term vested interest. Not trying to be a downer, and I believe in steem, but this reality challenges my optimism. Some kind of explanation would be quite beneficial imo. Please, correct me of you see holes in this perspective or fallacies in how I have drawn these conclusions or you have some links to relevant explanations. Thank you!

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mark-waser (56) · 8 years ago

@steemit is the one account that isn't a true account. It is the account that generates the funds to support steemit. Read the white paper and you will understand how the "money" supply is increased. And look at what the true number one and two holders are doing . . . .

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zorrotmm (57) · 8 years ago

Its not slander to point out a problem within the system. If the vote rewards are so incredibly disparate that the whales have to resort to bots to get it distributed, its a problem. I agree they aren't 'colluding' or conspiring against anyone, they're just putting an unnecessary burden of power and responsibility on a tiny fraction of user votes. Since the whales and the developers are mostly the same people, they can flatten the vote rewards, or continue to deal with community resentment indefinitely.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

I get that. Though I would imagine that as the user base grows, so would the size of the bot list as more great authors do come to their owners' attention. In the end, the creme rises to the top...

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pompe72 (63) · 8 years ago

...and the shit flushes down the toilet.

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pompe72 (63) · 8 years ago

I think the whale's bot algorythm sucks. If they are not funneling money back to their "friends", then their bots are randomly giving out votes. How the hell does a bot know what is good and what is crap?

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

I had ZERO contact with @steemed before being put on his list. Hence, there's no validity to any argument the whales are funnelling money to their friends.

Bots are NOT randomly giving out votes. There are criteria programmed into the bots' algorithms that is a somewhat effective mechanism for separating various degrees of quality content.

AND, the whales using bots DO go back to double-check what's been voted on - and hence, may revoke upvotes if they feel the bot has not successfully voted on their behalf and misgauged a post's quality. I also imagine that in such cases, the bot owner would use the feedback to further articulate the distinctions in their bots' criteria to upgrade the algorithms to become even more effective.

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pompe72 (63) · 8 years ago (edited)

"further articulate the distinctions in their bots' criteria to upgrade the algorithms to become even more effective." This is like Terminator type stuff. Pretty soon AI will be born and the human race will be become just group of unuseful idiots.
In any case the algorithm still sucks, because the bots can't understand the humour in my replies. Sure I got some LMAO replies, but the bots didn't understand the satire and that's why I'm at -5.

P.S. This is for AI, put this reply well into your memory bank when you try to figure out what ironey and satire are.

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bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago

Your writing always brings such clarity to the issues at hand with a thorough and respectful voice. I really appreciate the time you take to put your posts together and also the time corresponding with those people who have chosen to leave thoughtful comments or questions. I can only imagine how busy you are, but I wondered if you would be interested in at least being a smal part of this idea Weekly Audio Podcast I think it might add a dimension that hasn't really been seen yet. Totally understand if you are just too busy to devote time to any other projects, but would love some feedback from a respected member of this community.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

are you on the Steemit Rocket chat?

PM me there and can discuss in more detail... :-)

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bendjmiller222 (64) · 8 years ago (edited)

I am! I will gladly do so and look forward to hearing from you when you get the chance. I looked on the chat and couldn't find the username you use here. Hopefully @sivante there is you!

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timsaid (74) · 8 years ago

Are the whales the only excuse for someone who gets less upvotes?

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

by no means the only, but definitely one of the most commonly used. lol.

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madhatting (52) · 8 years ago

My posts just sink..

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mrgrey (57) · 8 years ago

Personally I feel that the "power" is in the hands of a few at the moment when it should be more evenly spread the "whales" are not Gods yet everyone hangs around hoping and almost begging that they would be supported by one or two which I am sure also puts the current whales under pressure, personally I think we need more whales and Dolphins so that the voting power is not controlled and decided on by a few but by many, steemits original vision was to help everyone across the planet so let us do that and fatten up as many good content writers up as possible and create more Dolphins than whales which was my reason for my post https://steemit.com/steemit/@mrgrey/new-steemit-whale-makers-club instead of everyone complaining about unfairness and bias lets do something about it even if it means creating dolphin bots to help the lower ranks.

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senseiteekay (66) · 8 years ago

Wonderful post. I was glad to see this was the first thing on Steemit's homepage this morning here in Australia. Beautifully written and expressed. I hope a bucketload of newbies full straight off the truck and into this post. Like myself a few weeks ago, they'll need it. Excellent stuff @rok-sivante Keep on writing quality content. I'll be following you avidly.

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busser (64) · 8 years ago

Steem plarform reacts quickly - i'm only two weeks here, first only Cheetah was visible, then bots appeared in swarm and now we have reputation system.
I like it.

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egjoshslim (57) · 8 years ago

you have whales falling out your arse? i had a successful post on my blog. don't pretend it isn't down to whether or not a whale upvotes your post. i had 1 whale upvote mine and it went triple digit. you can see on my posts for yourself! This was only half the truth leaving out the important fact that 3 powerful whales out weigh 300 normal upvotes? you always have a very one sided view as you are a whales favorite... thats like working for a bank being given millions then being asked what you think of that bank. You will have nothing publicly bad to say. (to protect that income) I will attack non legitimate whales regardless of upvotes or flags. Its not fair on the noobs!

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

if I got whales falling out my arse, either somebody wake me up - or who the fuck slipped such damn good psychedelics into my coffee...??? :-D

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splatterhaus (53) · 8 years ago

It's self-defense, not self-defence. (Not trying to be a word nazi, I'm just pointing ot out so you can edit and correct.

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jaysanz (51) · 8 years ago

I, for one, have been posting original stuff, while learning the system, culture, etc. I've also spread the word on FB, Twitter, and person to person. So I'm pretty much bound for success. It's a process, though. So I've decided to invest a little and I'm buying Steem Power in the next few days.

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deviedev (66) · 8 years ago

Why, exactly, do you think this cyberspace is so special? Do you honestly think people need to read a white paper in order to participate in a content-sharing community? I am going to go out on a limb and say that this isn't anyone's first rodeo. If Steemit is going to succeed, it needs its user to return--and those users are only going to return if they are confident that they have access to all the best "content" on the web. Right now, Steemit is just a place to read a million articles about Steemit.

Yawn.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

It's the first real cryptocurrency-backed, content creation/curation incentivized social media ecosystem.
Game-changer.

Whether it succeeds or not, the fusion of a cryptocurrency ecosystem with an easily accessible social media platform IS ground-breaking. And the potentials that could be grown out of that ecosystem, leveraging the crypto model - integration with open-source tech for development of all sorts of apps...

Others have theorised about it and begun planning it. Steemit is the first to execute.

It's by no means perfect. It's still early on in the development.
But to have gotten as far as it has, attracted as many smart, creative, open-minded, forward-thinking individuals as it has - and hold the opportunity for expansion whose greatest limits are the imagination of the participants...

"Special" may be subjective. Though all that fits it into the category, at least in my books.

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deviedev (66) · 8 years ago

Fantastic answer.

I just wish the content was more imagination at work and less "here's how I finally made money on Steemit."

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jasoncarswell (46) · 7 years ago (edited)

This article was very good, and yet... It sounded like reasonable motivational feel good propaganda supporting the rigged system that you're in favour of because you've been honoured and absorbed into it. I don't doubt that you believe it. I don't doubt that Scientologists believe their thing. Scientologists also understand celebrity power.

"[Insert clever quote]."

"[Insert clever quote]." ~ Mark Twain

Oh, well, if Mark Twain said it then it must be good, I'll have to remember that and recycle it.

Your article while good, was not an essay that would include the cons with the pros. It was far from fair and balanced. This was my subjective take, whatever that's worth, that it was just supportive puff that called for balance and clarity but gave none.

It's like the corporate media telling us the markets is better than ever, more profitable (for elites), and that the economy is doing just fine - meanwhile more people are unemployed than ever, (anyone unemployed over two years doesn't count for some reason,) riots in the streets, rigged elections, fake news, false flags, looming or starting wars....

Nothing to see here. Ignore the whales behind the curtain. Your leaders have everything in control. Go back to work debt slaves. Watch the boob tube for more updates.

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rok-sivante (75) · 7 years ago

Ah, the low-theta trap...

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jasoncarswell (46) · 7 years ago (edited)

I don't understand. Is this a meme I haven't heard of?
https://www.google.ca/#q=low-theta - I don't get it.
Am I low-frequency brainwave white-noise snare somehow?
Is my gripe not legit because I'm not elite?

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rok-sivante (75) · 7 years ago

You won't find anything about it on Google.

And not because it's not some "secret society" secret.

The gripe is because of uncoverted brainwaves - a kink in the memory system. The "elite" are just as susceptible as anyone else - moreless the same dynamic in effect at the root of "their" paranoia and belief in scarcity.

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jasoncarswell (46) · 7 years ago

I'm flattered you call me "elite" but I just play one on TV.
"You're talking about memories..." ~Bladerunner

You're talking about human nature...
Elite or otherwise. Hording can't be helped. It's never enough. We're wired to want, never grateful for what we have, always resenting what gets taken or lost.

Q: What do you call a skeevy little horder with connections?
A: A billionaire.

Let's start a Steemit secret society.
Okay, first you encrypt an email to me of yourself compromising a child so that I can blackmail you if needs be. Then we'll infiltrate some well meaning peaceful groups and exploit and murder them in a false flag event that launches us into a profitable war granting us access to their land and mineral rights. Then we can send covert operatives to blackmail or assassinate all the Steemit whales into our clutches...

Is there such a thing as a secret society for good?

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rok-sivante (75) · 7 years ago

I never called you "elite."

And to your final question... you would never be able to know if coming from the presupposition there couldn't be, for the low-theta judgement would close off your receptors to any information contradicting your belief...

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jasoncarswell (46) · 7 years ago

Thanks, I get that a lot, and though I do look elite, I insist I am not.

And finally to your final answer to my final question I finally ask another final question: Are you speaking from the confirmation-biased perspective of a secret society insider or an outsider?

A member of a secret society for good might think they were doing good but couldn't verify it with non-secret-society-members. (Inversely, a member of a secret society for bad may think they were doing bad, but were actually doing good, and they couldn't verify it with non-secret-society-members.)

On the other hand the existence of a secret society for good might be so secret that no one knows about it. In fact, we may all actually be in the secret society for good and not even know it because it's so secret!

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rok-sivante (75) · 7 years ago

ok. this takes the prize for all your comments so far. I like the mind-benders... :-)

jelloducky (48) · 8 years ago

Man, you were right on point. I dig.

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lukeerico (49) · 8 years ago

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https://steemit.com/@vasilii/posts

vasilii (25) · 8 years ago

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condra (67) · 8 years ago

ugh. dude. its not working. look at the "1" ...

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dimitriy (29) · 8 years ago

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mahmoudshokri (0) · 8 years ago

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Reveal Comment

sebastien (59) · 8 years ago

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

Lol :-)

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edbriv (49) · 8 years ago

friends sorry for the hassle but could help me in this cause gives a Upvote to Venezuela! my country is in a terrible crisis and I am asking for your help to contribute a bit and bring a little happiness to my people https://steemit.com/steem-help/@edbriv/surviving-in-venezuela-community-steemit-there-are-our-hope-help-us-introduceyourself

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mguy808 (50) · 8 years ago

Great article. But no matter how you look at it, the whales are what you are pandering to. What everyone seems to be in it for.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

a classic read from @tuck-fheman on "pandering to the whales" =
Ultimate Noob Guide to Get Rich on Steemit from Today's Top Self Help Gurus

Satirical. Yet there's wisdom in it. (Not for the reasons most will see on the surface).

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vi1son (59) · 8 years ago

Little pathetic... but idea is good

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

What specifically would you say deems it fair to be called "pathetic?"

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zaebars (68) · 8 years ago

Content is our everything. Not only here, in our life in general

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meteor78 (45) · 8 years ago

Nice post @rok-sivante

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johnnyyash (63) · 8 years ago

Now you are a whale too.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

not even close, mate.

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odirlei (1) · 8 years ago

cool

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steem42 (45) · 8 years ago

Think we'll all manage in our own way. Just need to figure out what works for us, individually & collectively.

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omfedor (63) · 8 years ago

Many thanks for the valuable thoughts, @rok-sivante!

Totally agree with your logic and arguments This project is a reflection of real life. Outside the Internet most people, unfortunately, are more inclined to complain and to resent, than to create and to act. I personally understand the attitude of whales, and in particular the position of @steemed - the more good content will be in Steemit, the better for all.

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margot (54) · 8 years ago

It is always politics and two sides of the coins. So yes. Great article. Thank you for sharing :)

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queenmountain (64) · 8 years ago

Mind blown sir. Mind blown.

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chrisadventures (60) · 8 years ago (edited)

Hi @rok-sivante, you’re in the Steemit’s #Top 10 Most Inspiring Travel Stories on Steemit! I share this here, so you know! Check it here: https://steemit.com/steemit/@chrisadventures/the-first-official-steemit-top10-top-10-most-inspirational-travel-stories-on-steemit

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leprechaun (56) · 8 years ago

I am convinced that It might be a good idea to simply vote up things on the bot list.. That is, let a bot do that while you don't have time to use steemit manually.

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thealexander (43) · 8 years ago

Many people jump on board the 'Steemit is unfair boat' too quickly, for those who do not have the luck or notoriety to get onto a whale's bot list. It takes time to develop a fan base and you need consistently good posts, how do you suggest someone keeps their motivation up for continual posting?

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

spoke to that question in my post The Top SEVEN Tips For Steemit Newbies To Overcome Discouragement And Get Earning Top Dollars...

To clarify: I was writing for a month straight, obsessively focused before being putting on the bot list. The reason I got put on wasn't because of luck - unless by "luck" you mean a shitload of hard work, including 15 years of intensive study and skill development.

I went through my bouts of discouragement, comparing my low rewards with others' ridiculous ones. It took alot of persistence. Just gotta keep at it, pace yourself, become a student of the five types of value and focus on packing as much value as you can into every post - becoming an increasingly-valuable contributor to the community.

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madhatting (52) · 8 years ago

IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE MONEY

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andrarchy (72) · 8 years ago

Phenomenal post as always

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

thanks mate. I really appreciate that, coming from you - as your videos have been highly inspirational and have really influenced my outlook on this site/ecosystem and what it may become with consistent contribution of quality value.

:-)

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allasyummyfood (73) · 8 years ago

great post! i think everyone needs to start from 0 and of course the bigger the platform will become, the harder it will become to be noticed, but I think hard work will pay off. But I do think there is politics as well involved !

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gikitiki (60) · 8 years ago

Great post.

I've enjoyed the posts and appreciate all of the hard work that the early adopters poured into this site.

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rok-sivante (75) · 8 years ago

they have paid their dues. they've enabled ALOT of people significant transformation in their financial situations - creating the conditions for exploration of creativity in producing much value for the community.

as such, the appreciation and respect they receive is WELL-deserved.

:-)

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poeticsnake (70) · 8 years ago (edited)

I am not against the bots! In fact most of my posts are only seen by bots! On the other hand all the bots that see me get down voted right away. So this is all a tad confusing to me to say the least. I have posted many things and my post all go down the drain within seconds. They say, keep posting, make a name for yourself but as long as post are being pushed up above the new members this is a very hard place to be. Don't get me wrong, I love the whole idea of Steemit, otherwise I would not have been here.

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joshuanboles (56) · 8 years ago

I dig

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luke490 (46) · 8 years ago

I keep thinking "Bot lives matter" and "Bots are kind and predictable, humans are trolls" ... But that is just me.

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belkins (54) · 8 years ago

you totally right

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