SELF UPVOTING OF COMMENTS IS NO LONGER ALLOWED, what would be the consequences, what would be the benefits.

in steemit •  7 years ago  (edited)

In the steemit system there seems to be an argument that is getting more and more intense. There are two clear sides to this. And each has a valid points. Let's look into this and see what it's all about. As it just keep going back and forth like this... I'd like to point out the pros, cons, and possible mentalities of both these sides and would love to get your thoughts on this matter.

Here are the teams:

Team PRO SELF UPVOTE

These are people who believe that it is a good and justified practice to dip into the rewards pool and upvote every single one of their own comments. They are often strong with the STEEM. And their votes are powerful.

And in the opposite corner:

Team ANTI SELF UPVOTE

This team believes that paying it forward and everybody giving back is what will make the steemit community sustainable and abundant for all. This large team are often the younger steemians by steemit age. And often work tirelessly for little return in the hope of being the blood and sweat that will evolve steemit into something magnificent and never seen before.

Now now now... Calm down you two and let's hear both sides out...

The PRO SELF UPVOTE representative approaches the steemit stage

Quiet!!!!! Sit down shut up and listen. Now most of the people on this team are the ones that are big and strong and have the most influence. Not all whales and dolphins side on this team and that is their choice... Some of our more outstanding members speak out will in the most perfect way. And you will listen.

It is not against the rules to help other members on this team. There is no rules against voting on every single one of our own comments. We are the ones here that makes things happen when we make any move. So YOU WILL RESPECT OUR AUTHORITAH...

If it was not for many of us on this team. There would be no steemit at all. We deserve it and have very little time to listen to this shit. As our favourite member said in the link above. WE WILL NOT LET ANY SELF RIGHTEOUS PRICKS tell us we cannot vote for our own posts. Now go and crawl back into where ever it is and do whatever it is that you do. Some of us are powering down. And more of us will do that if you lor keep annoying us. So shut up!!! or this place will fall into a heap if we all power down. Now one day you might be able to join us , and your steem power will be doubled every 181 days. Until then, know your place and stay out of the way.

I will not be taking any questions... talk to the hand...

The crowd is silent aside from a few murmurs and angry whispers, but nobody speaks up.

The ANTI SELF UPVOTE ambassador greets the crowd

Thank you for the opportunity today to stand up here today and represent the entire steemit community...

And a warm welcome to the new members of this great community...

And also thank you to the established members that has made this possible for all of us to be here today...

Since HF19 the rewards have been significantly better for our newer members and many have reaped huge benefits and increase the motivation to create some amazing content. However some believe that with larger and fewer voting bullets. Seemed to have changed the behaviour of the wielders of the bigger guns. It seems that many with the higher VP choose to take out fo the daily reward pool and give to themselves. Many of you who are new here may not know what we are talking about. But Master @rada does a good job explaining this here. That the quality of the posts from the ones we look up at and aspire to be will go down. And that the unequal distribution of resources will discourage growth of our community. People will turn away in huge numbers.

That would be a disaster my friends. And I am speaking to whales, dolphins, minnows, and the ones that need our support most.
Master @ethical-ai points out here that it is unfortunate there are big players that use this style of steeming to take up daily and overall resources and them power down adding a downward pressure to steem value during a time of such cut throat scenario against other cryptocurrencies. If the majority of steemians left and the price is crushed because of this practice. That would be a tragedy for all of us. Even the whales that did not ride this first destructive wave will be left for dead like the rest of us.

Master @ethical-ai points out further severities of this problem and offers some possible solutions here.

Masters of the steemit council... I stand before you and plead for sake of all steemians, not just for the underdogs... for everyone. If this is allowed to persist out platform will implode on itself. For the sake of our pioneers, our present bloggers, and for future generations. Please take away the ability to upvote on one's own comments. And also allow posts to climb back up to the top every time someone comments. That will generate thought provoking content. And this does not mean that whales lose out... They too are more than capable of generating the greatest content as they have done. They will still have the abundance they deserve. By going through the right channels they can do this while they contribute to everyone else.

We can all win together, or we can all fall together. Thank you for this opportunity to represent you all.

May the STEEM be with you.


YODA: Now that we have heard the debate from both teams. I invite you all to comment on each team's perspective and give me your objective. Your comments are the most important and they are the game changers before the next Hard Fork. That was a fair debate ;) And I invite you to make a fair comment.

Please please resteem this as comments are vital to gain more materials to work with to make changes for the better. Follow me @yoda1917 if you found value in this and we may cross paths more often :)

Look forward to hearing from you.

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I have recommended multiple times to just discontinue self upvote, but some user pointed our then everyone will create two accounts, post from one account and upvote from theother one, so here i see one solution which is developers use their influence and downvote power or some banning mechanism, so we can get rid of this malpractice.

It may not be a complete solution but it is very much a must.

Can you do me a favour and resteem this for me as it has sunken into the darkness. Much appreciated.

I created this today.....

I think you will like it :)

I am about to resteem it and i assure you i am joining voice with you on this issue. One more point is this upvote scenario is, one will only upvote his/her own post, only for monetary benefits. Otherwise there is no reason as one's sharing or posting of something is the prove that he/she likes it.

Thank you.... did you check my other post. I think I am offending a lot of people. I am about to write another one

Keep writing and posting for the good of steemit community. Issues of steemit must be highlighted so they can be discussed and solved on community level. I have read your other post there you are some how agree about self voting, i still stuck at one point, posting of something by some user is assurance that he like that content then why he upvote other than monetary benefits?

Upvotes are important. But when people take time to comment and resteem it means even more to me.

Thanks :)

Ummmm. You seem to have missed the main problem. If you push self-votes away then people will just build smurf accounts and vote themselves that way. Others will argue that it's against freedom and liberty to do as they will with their own steem power.

Thank you for pointing that out Master :)

Any chance of a resteem from you so your mates get into this discussion? ;)

Hmmm. Then you'll see a whale with lots of pet minnows... is there a way around this

Yes, big accounts either delegate power to others to deal with such behavior through flagging, or they do it themselves, but short of that there is no solution. I think it's a very simple solution and it doesn't require any HF, just community initiative.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Correct, but where are the good whales to step up and put an end to this activity that will kill the whole steemit platform in the end.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

that will kill the whole steemit platform in the end.

Debatable. Right now there are only a few people that can be considered abusive, and there's plenty of discussion about among the veterans about this I think.

I know this has been repeated a lot, but we're in beta, and although the system has changed considerably in specific ways, overall, the platform has remained the same: police yourselves. come to consensus.

There may be only a few you consider abusive but as a very new person to steem I noticed right away the comment and upvote situation. Not just from whales, but others are doing it, learning from the big boys ya know. I have been here for less than 3 weeks and this has been a discussion in my household because my boyfriend and I (who joined the same day as me) thought this might be something we were supposed to be doing since it seemed to work. Since people were doing this to our account were we supposed to be doing that on others? I looked into it and found all this.

I am glad to know that the veterans are aware of this and discussing this

If you push self-votes away then people will just build smurf accounts and vote themselves that way.

If everyone adapted their MO, this place would go to hell in a hand basket.

Others will argue that it's against freedom and liberty to do as they will with their own steem power.

That's why I think a good solution would be to report all such activities of reward pool rape to a community or group who will have a post up every week that gets edited regularly to reflect who should be flagged and have their collusive behavior negated and send the rewards back to the community, and that's not against freedom or liberty, people have the right to do as they will with their own steem power, like flagging behavior that is counter to community.

What is the key to getting ideas like this implemented though

Time/effort and perseverance.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

You are right, there is nothing else, and there is a hope that others with more power behind them will step in and assist.

I think all the "self voting lists" and the entire issues is completely over-shadowing all kinds of other work we should be doing on the Steemit platform.

To quote @smooth:

"Someone who buys SP and then selfvotes is not 'draining' anything and at best can get back a portion of what was put in. It causes no harm at all."

Investors are the ones who underwrite all of the rewards on this platform. If you are not an investor, or are only a smaller investor, you need to focus your efforts on creating inspiring content that makes investors want to give their money to you. Whatever else they do or don't do with their money (including self-voting) is not your concern and does not harm you in any way. Nevertheless, you do have a downvote that you can use to disagree with what you think are underserved rewards. I suggest using it."

"The idea of creating 'lists of shame' and demonizing people is divisive, creates a hostile and toxic environment attractive to no one, and serves no useful purpose. There is no way to tell from these lists whether the content is deserving of the rewards or not. The only way to tell is by actually looking at the content, and if you think it is undeserving, downvote it."

"Your own statistics show that self-voting is awarding about 8.5% of the reward pool. I don't find that suggestive of any problem whatsoever. It is probably a very reasonable number given that the current parameters give people 10 full power votes to make per day. Thus one is being applied to the voters' own content and nine to others' (on average, of course). Seems fine."

This is a very good post that try to address the issue of self voting in a more balanced way. I am of the opinion that everything needs to be balanced. Self voting is not good but you have to also look at some problems that fuel self voting.

Please elaborate on these problems that may fuel self voting...

And any chance of resteeming this for me bro. I really need more people to join in here :)

And also allow posts to climb back up to the top every time someone comments.

Use chainBB for this feature.

People should start to see Steemit also like an investment. A real financial investment. The more shares you have in a company the more you can earn back and have a more powerful voice in the company.

I'm on team self upvote. I gave my opinion about this 'issue' a few days ago.

Some people when they reach a high level of wealth in the offline world, give a lot of money back to their communities through whatever methods. And some people, don't. Some people take most of the profits and reinvest it into making more money for themselves. Should we get to vote or decide how these people should use their earned money and through which means?

I think this debate is in a strange way a debate between socialism and anarchism. How much of any do you want? How much authority to we want to give to a centralized institution (be it democracy) to decide for moral issues? I myself lean to...

https://steemit.com/steemit/@anonimnotoriu/my-5-cents-on-the-self-voting-issue

Yeah I know about ChainBB. But unless I am wrong 99% of people come here and not there. I am not sure why.

And thank you for your opinion, you are one of the nicest people that play on that team. Many of them are very abusive in their posts and comments :)

What are your thoughts on this issue

Hope to hear from you again, I value your opinion.

May I ask for a resteem to keep this dialogue alive? Much appreciated

Why not use clear information instead of attempting to additionally control user behavior?

Just advertise abusive self-voters in a similar way as 100% SP posts ... perhaps with a badge on post titles and on the wallet page that only appears when a ridiculous percentage (maybe 75% or more) of the week's author rewards came from the author's own self-votes.

That would be a clear cut way that will enforce self regulation. I think that is a good idea. Good thinking, upvoted your comment.

Any chance I can you you to resteem this so more people may see it on its last days? That would be awesome :)

Thanks. Rather than resteem this post, I will mention/link to it during the next few days as a great example of the conversation now taking place around this issue.

Thank you, this is much appreciated.

Being new here and not much knowledge about its nuances, my first thought was hey this is cool that you get an upvote each time you post, which in theory is correct in my opinion, you liked it so you shared it with others..it helped me earn up a small amount of forward progress which was gratifying and offered more incentive to post more. ;) Like everything else it changes and now you have to start thinking about stuff..argh..thinking is such a pain. Probably the wrong way to think about how things work here but I will ride on my baby-like newb status in my own defense haha.
I guess it is what it is. I believe progress is progress but not everything that appears to be working needs to be changed. As with anything, no matter what you do someone will try to beat the system only for their own spoils. I just don't happen to be one of those people and will probably never change.

Comment upvoted and what an awesome comment. Yes change is inevitable, we go up or we go down. Doing nothing takes us down, effort is required by all to go up.

May I ask for a resteemto get this message out there before it dies. And come to @yoda1917 and help everyone and yourself by supporting the cause I am so passionate about.

Thank you again :)

Resteemed and thanks. I have a running joke with my parents on how many change nowadays " new and improved" which hardly are. I am probably still to new here to notice differences. I have noticed a slight lack of upvotes though, but I will keep trying. Good luck with the cause!

HF 19 and the self voting issue is what is getting a lot of new people down as you can see I am fighting it hard :)

Hey have you seen my new article today? It made a bit of impact :)

https://steemit.com/steemit/@yoda1917/and-the-steem-comes-tumbling-down-time-to-sit-tight

Ah, good stuff and resteemed. Guess I need to figure out bow to buy now. :) Tha ks for the interesting posts. Can't wait until I get one to go over a few cents...lol

Yeah I was very excited when I got one $190. And sometimes $40 or $20

I had to learn a few things before that happened

A good debate. I do not upvote all the time but do it occasionally.

Thank you you are a legend.

Come and see if my cause is worth supporting at @yoda1917

See you again :)

hi

Hi there, whats up

This post received a 1.7% upvote from @randowhale thanks to @yoda1917! For more information, click here!

This is a non-issue if you understand how the voting system works. The amount of time that passes directly effects the power of your votes. So people with high power should not instantly upvote or they will lose much of their rewards. By waiting and using their steem power to keep their post rolling they will make much more and there is nothing wrong with using your own power to say that you yourself have written something great, its your reputation on the line and if you constantly upvote your own shit posts you will suffer in the end.

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I think all the "self voting lists" and the entire issues is completely over-shadowing all kinds of other work we should be doing on the Steemit platform.

To quote @smooth:

"Someone who buys SP and then selfvotes is not 'draining' anything and at best can get back a portion of what was put in. It causes no harm at all."

Investors are the ones who underwrite all of the rewards on this platform. If you are not an investor, or are only a smaller investor, you need to focus your efforts on creating inspiring content that makes investors want to give their money to you. Whatever else they do or don't do with their money (including self-voting) is not your concern and does not harm you in any way. Nevertheless, you do have a downvote that you can use to disagree with what you think are underserved rewards. I suggest using it."

"The idea of creating 'lists of shame' and demonizing people is divisive, creates a hostile and toxic environment attractive to no one, and serves no useful purpose. There is no way to tell from these lists whether the content is deserving of the rewards or not. The only way to tell is by actually looking at the content, and if you think it is undeserving, downvote it."

"Your own statistics show that self-voting is awarding about 8.5% of the reward pool. I don't find that suggestive of any problem whatsoever. It is probably a very reasonable number given that the current parameters give people 10 full power votes to make per day. Thus one is being applied to the voters' own content and nine to others' (on average, of course). Seems fine."

Great Post - Re'STEEM'N

Maybe a low cap on self-vote comments - like no more than 1.00 or 2.00.

You received a 3.00 Upvote from @worldclassplayer

KEEP STEEM'N

Thank you very much for that. Yeah I really did not have much more to say for pro self voting. The intention are simple from them and so far I have witness a lot of smugness and arrogance when they talk about this matter. What do you think?

I think caps could be introduced in a way to prevent detrimental abuse to the overall community growth and best maturity

like capping comments at a 2.00 Vote. This way comment play voting can still be used....and it will be fairly easy to downvote someone who is clearly making a run at abusing with a shit ton of nothing 2.00 comment... self-comment upvotes. It is also a huge adjustment from the unlimited present ability.

Could be perhaps just the right fine tune'age we all need :)

That is a fucken awesome idea... Like capping self votes to $2 and whale to whale votes to $2. They will find a way around it, but we can deal with it when it happens. But what if they get stroppy and all leave?

Hey bro can I ask you to resteem this for me so more people see it before it dies? That would be awesome coming from you :)

Re'Steem'N

lol i already re'steem'd when i upvoted

Thank you :)

Thank you for this very good post and info. I am new to steemit and I was wondering why some posts with no info just a picture are getting so high upvote and some very good posts with many nice info getting so low upvote. Thanks to your post i understand now that some members have bought a lot of steem power and that gives them this high upvotes . Thank you and have a nice day :)

What a great question... That is because they have a lot of followers so their post gets a lot of exposure. And may be they have many other posts that their followers enjoy so they are treated with favour. We all want to be in that place :)

May I ask you to resteem this for me, and if I have earned it I would love a follow @yoda1917 and an upvote. Thanks :)

yes i have resteemd and follow you if you like you can follow me too :)

acutally, someone with more SP decided to get involved into this clash. ive got info from local priest. i wrote about it yesterday.

to a newbie, self upvote looks same like if you say something, and then pat your own head.

Show me your article I would like to see it. And I am not sure what you are trying to say to me.

Been there and commented. It was something I needed to see....

resteemed. i would like to hear more about subject.

Thank you :)

can i resteem this post?

Yes please, that will invite more people into this conversation. Thanks :)

okay cool done :)

I have been following this topic from several and to me it comes down to keeping it simple and I see it in many areas of life. If the shark is eating his own tail at what point does he realize he is killing himself? In order for steemit to grow it needs people from all walks of life willing to work for the betterment of the entire site not just their pockets. Without growth it dies. Resteemit and following...

Thank you and you are right. It is like the corporate giants destroying the Earth in the name of profit. They will not stop unless they are made to stop.

There might be a Hard Fork in the comments....

Which comment?

You will see...you will seee.

Good vs Evil. Hard Fork it will be.

Very good foundation topic with different thoughts and perspectives. Excellent juxtapositions.

Thank you :) May I ask you to resteem this so I can get this message far and wide before it dies soon. That will be awesome :)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

This debate is here to stay it seems ! It would be nice if the community came up with just some loose guidelines to follow ! Like ethical acceptable levels , this way as new steemians enter this platform they can see what s the norm and what is sustainable. Then as a new infux of people enter it doesn't always bring this topic to the top! Just a thought.

Guidelines would be nice, or technical enforcements of the platform may work better.

May I ask for a resteem to invite more people into this conversation?

I'm new ! But I did it and I think it worked ...it charged me 1 sd! It was my first one . Does it come up on my blog ..how can I check . My wallet said sent to null.

That was the promote button. The resteem button is to the left of the reply button on the post (little arrow thingy). It puts this post in your own blog list so your followers can see it.

Oh dear, what did it charge you. That was the promote button. I can pay you back if you like if you did not mean to send money on this.

The resteem button is the little bent arrow under my post

It's all good! No big deal ! Now I know! I will re steem now😃

We should upvote ourselves and also NOT upvote ourselves! It someone is abusing the self upvoting for every comment, giving them $40 dollars every 30 seconds I say call them out, trash can them and down vote them straight to helll! Otherwise feel free to upvote yourself from time to time! Just don't spam vote yourself and be discreet and respectful...otherwise you will be flagged and called out to be a spam troll.

I believe in a balanced approach. Good angle :)

May I ask for a resteem to get this out further, and hopefully having a whale join us in this conversation if I am lucky? :)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Resteemed but I think the whales may be too scared to enter this conversation cause some will lose. But yea, we should try to pit whale against whale to stop excess self upvoting from whales. Their posts make 100's or a thousand a day. Why keep upvoting yourself 40 dollars on top of that. Pisses me off. We should do something about it. How about no self voting of comments after a certain amount of steem?

Yes, they can make quite a bit from curation rewards alone, I am with you, we need the whales to help trash this behavior and encourage people to spend their voting power to curate rather than spam and collude.

There are good whales and there are greedy ones. And they are always looking for loopholes to take from the common man.

I think all the "self voting lists" and the entire issues is completely over-shadowing all kinds of other work we should be doing on the Steemit platform.

To quote @smooth:

"Someone who buys SP and then selfvotes is not 'draining' anything and at best can get back a portion of what was put in. It causes no harm at all."

Investors are the ones who underwrite all of the rewards on this platform. If you are not an investor, or are only a smaller investor, you need to focus your efforts on creating inspiring content that makes investors want to give their money to you. Whatever else they do or don't do with their money (including self-voting) is not your concern and does not harm you in any way. Nevertheless, you do have a downvote that you can use to disagree with what you think are underserved rewards. I suggest using it."

"The idea of creating 'lists of shame' and demonizing people is divisive, creates a hostile and toxic environment attractive to no one, and serves no useful purpose. There is no way to tell from these lists whether the content is deserving of the rewards or not. The only way to tell is by actually looking at the content, and if you think it is undeserving, downvote it."

"Your own statistics show that self-voting is awarding about 8.5% of the reward pool. I don't find that suggestive of any problem whatsoever. It is probably a very reasonable number given that the current parameters give people 10 full power votes to make per day. Thus one is being applied to the voters' own content and nine to others' (on average, of course). Seems fine."

Great post and so many links.... Upvote.

Thank you for the compliment and the upvote.

May I ask a favour and get a resteem. This is sinking fast like a minnow :)

This is a pointless argument. Most people that have money or make large investments do so for profit. This is not a charity platform. Why is it an unfair practice? Unethical? No. You must be first be good to yourself.
In this world of STEEMIT your worth is measured in part by your steem. NOT by your content. There are thousands of posts that deserve more than some shit post about ayahuasca earning hundreds of dollars.
But steemit is not a religion or a church or whatever pious platform you want it to be. It is a business where people who invest in it have to be brought in and given incentives. If you want something fair, whatever that word means, go to CNN ( just kidding) Can you name one platform where monetizing content occurs and practices are fair. I hope all minnows understand the meaning of that word. We are baits for the big fish until we become big. It is unfair to call something unfair just because you ethically dislike it. That sounds like a religion to me.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Thank you for your response, you bring a valid perspective to the table :)

As I have said to many I agree that whales to earn as they deserve to. Profit is the main juice to an investor. And as you know, people who buyinto companies and become major shareholders gain a lot of power. There are those who look after the whole enterprise as their own and nurture the operations, the shareholders, stakeholders, and the employees. That makes a company thrive. Then there are those who go in to drain the company and all affected by the companies (like residents in villages that get evicted for building say... a resort) and take as much as they can and destroy their environment as a short term investment.

Oh and I personally very rarely speak the work FAIR. I gave that up when I was a small child. But I do believe in doing my best in good practice in all of what I do

Thank you for your response I value these conversations as this where I learn a lot and new ideas are born.

Come and have a look @yoda1917 and see if we can carry on our conversation.

Look forward to seeing you again :)

Regards

Yoda

download 2.jpeg

I am already a YODA....ist. Have followed you for quite some time. Let it be YODA . Nothing changes unless the business can see it as a prifitable move. I hope that when I am need of 2 cents, I can upvote my comment.

lol... and you got a 2 cen upvote from this old minnow. I believe this cause is for the long term profit and passion of this platform :)

Look forward to talking again :)

You just made a profit! Good talking to you YODA. You heart is in a good place. Mine has been hardened by the world

Mine has suffered to brother.

https://steemit.com/life/@yoda1917/to-live-or-not-to-live

But it took everything that happened to us to happen exactly the way it did for us to be right here today for the things to be grateful for, no matter how gig or little :)

great post. resteemed

Thank you :) COme and check out the other outrageous posts I have @yoda1917. See if I can win a follow out of your if you are amused :)

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

I have read so many post of people talking about their strategy for getting paid out where they will only upvote their own stuff and all that crap -- I have to say that this says more about a person than contrived comments and ego inflated, pompous postings, or posts that make good off of other peoples work from YT and other sources not their own. I think the self upvote option really should not even be an option, it just keeps people honest. Temptation be gone. lol. Re-steeming and of course I put my measly one cent to this with my upvote as this is a great post! Thank you.

I had this to say before I started to see all the pro-upvote stuff:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@mamadini/money-was-not-the-main-reason-i-joined-steemit

Thank you . I agree. If it was not an option it will not happen. There will be other loopholes. But we can cross these bridges when we get to it as a community :)

I'll check out your post

Side note: Yoda has always been the one I Identify with the most. ;)

This really is a community issue and as a community we can solve it.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

Thank you. Hey this thread has slowed down. Can you resteem it for me to get some exposure. I cannot do this myself

And have you seen what I have written since then lol.. You'll laugh

Thanks if you can :)

I totally resteemed this already (as soon as I read through it and commented). I'll mosey over to your page now to see what's up over there. :)

Rock on!

Sorry I asked again lol. See you there :)

LOL.... I just read two post and find your view point to mirror my own. I like that you are open to hearing other perspectives. Moving with the changing tide is important. I'm responding back here as I'm ready to lay my arse down to dreamtime and take up with more tomorrow. Thank you for a great end to my day with all your well thought out view points.
Rock on, Yoda1917. :)

Thank you... see you tomorrow :)

La ley de la selva !!!! Sobrevive el mas fuerte.

???? lol