In my articles I often talked about the systemic view of the world, that is, the reality I perceive. I wonder whether some of my readers have actually taken a closer look at the footnotes and the treatises on systemics. Since I have the impression that I have not yet sufficiently provided an understanding of the systemic approach, I am starting a new attempt here.
My motivation is to understand "reality"
Systemics understands itself as an interdisciplinary approach and reference, from which a rapprochement of an understanding of the world can take place.
Systemics offers a worldview which is neither totally relying on certainty (science) nor on uncertainty (trust). Instead, it acknowledges an integration of both, the testable and not testable into the perception of humans. It says: There is a matrix in which everything is embedded. In this bed, separation does not make sense.
Consider the systemic view in your discipline
I want all of you to expand your discipline (actually your whole life) through the approach and methodology of the systemic view of life. You certainly know that your work has an influence on other peoples lives and professions and our environment and vice versa.
What I see in the world I live in - supported by media forces - are two streams/tendencies:
- The habit of seeing the world only through the lens of scientific criteria neglects other views which follow not this criteria and must therefore be dismissed.
- The habit of seeing the world only through the lens of a higher authority neglects other views which follow not this belief and must therefore be dismissed.
In order to get a full picture of my world, I need both: science in its original sense and trust. One is testable, measurable, evaluable and the other is not. One is quantity, the other quality. Quality can be approached and mapped, understood, but never really grasped. A remnant of uncertainty remains. There is no definitive proof of what quality is as little as there is no definitive proof of scientific knowledge as it exists in time and space and is constantly changing and throwing old findings overboard.
To stay with uncertainty and take trust where is no proof is an approach which I want you to chew on. It divides people otherwise in scientists and non-scientists and adds onto the conflicts between humans, which claim to possess the truth when, in fact, both views are justified. In my world, the quantifying approach on life tries to outweigh the quality of trust.
Objectivity is impossible
For me, "objectivity" serves as a safe room where one doesn't want to be questioned on an emotional level. But objectivity has long since been called into question by science itself and there is doubt as to whether a human being can ever be objective because we have discovered a great deal more about ourselves in the meantime.
The "recognition of recognition" obliges to "constant vigilance towards the temptation of certainty". With which the world we see is not the world, but a world that we bring forth with others".
source: Wikipedia translation from German to English
Take time to digest that statement.
“Thirty years ago, we used to ask: Can a computer simulate all processes of logic? The answer was yes, but the question was surely wrong. We should have asked: Can logic simulate all sequences of cause and effect? And the answer would have been no.”
― Gregory Bateson, Mind and Nature quotes
That certainly (LOL) resonated with me! I can see this temptation almost everywhere and have it myself. It seems to contradict the scientific approach, in which an investigated object (theory) is generally considered to be proven when it has passed the scientific criteria. Tendencies, probabilities, and averages can be anticipated but certainty?
A true scientist behaves careful with the term "certainty" and does right in doing so.
According to systemics the world as I try it to experience is a living self-regulating system. In this view, the whole planet Earth is a living system which accommodates numerous other living systems that have emerged from it. Referring to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, all living organisms that exist today have the same ancestors. Life, as we know it, brings new life out of itself, is therefore reproductive. In addition, it is highly complex and eludes simple explanations.
Feedback loops
Since all living systems depend on each other and draw feedback loops, it is possible to deduce their interdependence and at the same time exclude a linear causality. The simple assumption that A causes B is a reductive observation and is not sufficient.
Feedback occurs in many technical, biological, geological, economic and social systems. Depending on the type and direction of the traced variable, the self-reinforcement of the process caused by the system or its attenuation or self-limitation occurs. In the first case, it is referred to as positive feedback or co-feedback, in the latter case it is referred to as negative feedback or back-coupling (added: in the sense of "pushing against").
German source: Wikipedia translation
English source: Wikipedia
Scientists have got to the bottom of this reality and, as they say, independently of each other. Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela are the ones I refer to in this article as well as those who talk about Maturana's work, like Fritjof Capra and Peter Senge. Also Gregory Bateson, who influenced Maturana and Valera. A woman should not be left out: Donella Meadows, to which I come later. Their findings don't surprise me, because other people before their time also knew about the fact that living systems regulate themselves, especially people who experienced themselves as part of nature, like the indigenous peoples. From what I so far studied the Buddhists as well came to similar conclusions.
According to the latest scientific findings, for example, human perception and consciousness is not a thing but a cognitive process. With emphasis on "process".
„Living systems are cognitive systems, and living as a process is a process of cognition. This statement is valid for all organisms, with or without a nervous system“
This is better known as the "Santiago theory" of their founders Maturana and Valera:
The Santiago theory of cognition is a direct theoretical consequence of the theory of autopoiesis. Cognition is considered as the ability of adaptation in a certain environment. That definition is not as strange as it seems at first glance: for example, one is considered to have a good knowledge of Mathematics if he can understand and subsequently solve a Mathematical problem. That is, one can recognize the mathematical entities, their interrelations and the procedures used to view other aspects of the relevant phenomena; all these, are the domain of Mathematics. And one with knowledge of that domain, is one adapted to that domain, for he can tweak the problems, the entities and the procedures within the certain domain.
As I have already suggested it has to be differentiated that the inanimate (abstract) can be measured and weighted, whereas the living has no quantifiable properties. The former is measurability, the latter is quality and must therefore be mapped instead of measured.
Watch this youtube videos from where I extracted some of my contents:
- Earth Talk: Fritjof Capra - The Systems View of Life
- Systems Thinking in a Digital World - Peter Senge
What does mapping mean in this context?
The behaviour of person X affects person Y, and the reaction of person Y to person X's behaviour will then affect person X's behaviour, which in turn will affect person Y, and so on.
For example, to view the quality of communication, I have to visualize its impact by mapping.
Since communication between people is done (not exclusively, because all living systems communicate with each other) I take the communication of two people. In order to achieve understanding at all, I need a framework in which to embed this.
A child insults another child in the schoolyard. This causes hurt feelings. Because it hurts, there is a fight, which leads to further insults and injuries, which stirs up the fight again. This form of a circular loop describes a problematic communication.
What this simple mapping does not do is to say that one child is guilty and the other is innocent. Rather, it describes a phenomenon that we as human beings understand intuitively. First of all, it is merely a point of reference without any evaluation.
Similarly, one could now choose a form of communication that is not offensive and we would end up with a feedback loop that describes the phenomenon of another, more preferential regulation.
Another picture gives Donella Meadows, an American scientist and environmentalist. Very educative is this film from Dartmouth College where she involves economy, politics and health and communication now must be seen as one aspect of the greater matrix:
In this lecture, Donella Meadows takes on a more philosophical concept. How can we bring ourselves to be aware of the assumptions we make as systems thinkers? She asserts that models are a set of assumptions. Donella Meadows defines some of these system dynamics assumptions (such as causal relationships and feedback loops) in this video:
Meadows chose, among others, an example from the healthcare sector and one from industry, the discovery and extraction of mineral resources. Her comparison of linear correlations with regard to political decisions was particularly fitting. As politicians speak generally in terms of linear causalities.
Politics and economy are not my specialties. So I prefer talking about "communication" which takes place in every realm of human interactions.
The foulness of linear causality was exactly the reason why I, as a child, didn't believe my mother when she told me that if I do lead a sinful life God will not let me into heavens. As I was not able to communicate that this statement seemed to me way to simple I felt a deep dissatisfaction with her notion and shut up. If she would have left God out of the equation it wouldn't have caused me all the headaches. We had more than once this miscommunication. Much better was my observations and my being embedded in the communities activities to really learn what she meant in practical daily life.
Communication between people is highly complex
What reality is for one, by no means is reality for the other. What you and I do indeed if we want to convince others of our own perception of reality, is to make them obey (I found that a telling statement from Peter Senges in the above video).
The reason for this strenuous form of human interaction is seen, among other things, in the fact that we lack an understanding of the systemic viewpoint and therefore we are stuck in a difficult feedback loop. It is said that the mechanistic observation of organisms came into being by the interpretation of Descartes - the separation of mind and matter - that led to misconceptions of human reality.
Consciousness is not a thing, but a cognitive process
The problem of us humans is that we are not accustomed to thinking in cycles. We understand "nature" as separate from us and can no longer learn in it because this is not possible in our modern lives. The fact that we even have a word for "nature" is already an indicator of separation. We isolated ourselves from the circular knowledge and turned nature into an object. Since the time of the Reconnaissance a few hundred years ago, we have been pursuing this view and as a result, we are facing global crises. We regularly create damaging feedback loops.
An example from my recent experience
I criticized the distribution of film material, which I identified as "best" for a negative feedback loop. The films show people who are seen as stupid, brutal and morally reprehensible. When this reaches a multitude of people who also think that and spread them, this system regulates itself through continuous damaging feedbacks but neglects to break the loop and transforms it into a benevolent one. The effect is not only reduced to those who also understand the stupidity and reprehensibility of others as a fact, but it reaches out to those who were meant as well and feel attacked by it, i. e. produce more film material. This material is from my point of view mistaken as "objective information".
One could say that malevolent censorship leads to as insults perceived messages which then again lead to even more message-producing which again is being perceived as stupid which then again has to be rigidly censored ... and so on and so forth. To stop that loop self-censorship and non-violent communication should take place to create a benevolent circle.
Otherwise, a negative loop gives the impression that people are per se stupid and unfeeling, and as a result, everyone is looking for a solution to stop or denigrate intolerable people. Hard to get away from that when I can't view systems.
My criticism set in at that point where I sensed that another negative loop was about to be created or already took on speed and I did not want it to unfold it with furthermore content in this art. I saw there the danger of adding up to the "war of cultures". I will come back later to a view on humans which disturbed me deeply and made me as a consequence writing this article.
As the systemic view is nothing all people can explain and take on, a good recommendation would be to take in the probability that this worldview could so far be the best offer.
I am still trying to understand all the attached theories and methods. It's indeed huge.
But why is it the best offer?
- it serves all the good stuff of the most reasonable, heartfelt and non-violent form of communication I ever encountered.
- It is based on ethics
- it contains a captivating logic
- it is future-proof and supportive of consensus
- it is creative instead of destructive
- it gives the most impactful perspectives and insights
- it is able to unite hostile groups of people
When this text leads you to try it out yourself either within your profession or within your personal interactions this would be great. I do not ask you to believe me or the people I mention here, but to check from your life experiences in experimenting with this approach. So, as a requirement, I ask you to watch the videos I present here in full length, chew on them, let them take you to reflect and contemplate. This steals a lot from your precious time.
I don't want to feel all alone with my systemic view on life and get in closer touch to those of you who like to debate or discuss with me.
What I tried to do is to give you a picture of systemics and my chosen examples themselves cannot show the complexity and all the attachments of cyclic or circular thinking. However, there may have been a hint of how to understand systemics or approach it.
In his book "Biology of cognition" Maturana ends with "No scientific work should be done without recognizing its ethical implications." He then points out what deserves special attention. You'll find the link to the whole text down below.
The last words I leave for Donella H. Meadows, quoting:
“No one can define or measure justice, democracy, security, freedom, truth, or love. No one can define or measure any value. But if no one speaks up for them, if systems aren’t designed to produce them, if we don’t speak about them and point toward their presence or absence, they will cease to exist.”
“Purposes are deduced from behavior, not from rhetoric or stated goals.”
Thank you for reading.
Photo by Aaron Burden on Unsplash
Photo by Julian Böck on Unsplash
Literature:
HUMBERTO R. MATURANA - BIOLOGY OF COGNITION - full book: http://www.enolagaia.com/M70-80BoC.html Baum der Erkenntnis/Tree of knowledge- Wikipedia translation from German to English
Ruesch, J.; Bateson, G. (2009) [1951]. Communication: The Social Matrix of Psychiatry
Bateson, G. (1979). Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity (Advances in Systems Theory, Complexity, and the Human Sciences)
Donella H. Meadows, Jorgen Randers and Dennis L. Meadows Limits to Growth - The 30 year Update, 2004
Francisco Varela - The Tree of Knowledge: The Biological Roots of Human Understanding
- Bateson quotes: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/88125.Gregory_Bateson
- Feedback - German source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCckkopplung
- Feedback - English source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback
- Humberto Maturana: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humberto_Maturana
- Francisco Varela: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Varela
- Fritjof Capra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritjof_Capra
- Peter Senge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Senge
- Donella Meadows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donella_Meadows
- Dartmore College Video
- Gregory Bateson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Bateson
- The Santiago theory of cognition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago%27s_theory_of_cognition)
- Autopoiesis: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
- Youtube Video: Earth Talk / Fritjof Capra - The Systems View of Life
- Peter Senge - Systems Thinking in a Digital World
- Descartes:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes
- Quotes Meadows: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3873538-thinking-in-systems-a-primer
- Guide to the Papers of Donella H. Meadows: http://ead.dartmouth.edu/html/ms1152_fullguide.html
Being A SteemStem Member
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Many thank yous!
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Wow, this is a great article! You are very thorough! I wonder if you have watched/read the works of Edgar Morin? He talks about complex thought and the necessary changes that must be made in education in order to adapt to this world view you are proposing, where everything is a system comprised of several and equally complex parts. I think you'd enjoy his lectures, try this link:
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Thank you so much.
For some strange reason, your text reply does not show up here in my comment section. Therefore, I quote you (took it out of my steemworld.org):
I don't know Edgar Morin and I am pleased that you give me a video. I watched the first two minutes and will watch him until the end of it.
Hoping to engage in positive feedback loops with you! :-) LOL
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I'm glad you took the time to search for my reply. I'm just starting with steemit, but I need to ask this: do you find this site fullfilling? I constantly come accross articles that are very bad, very underworked (is this a word?). I'm begining to wonder if it's worth it. Have you had a good experience in steemit so far?
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To answer your question: fulfilling is probably not what I would say. I learned a lot here, mostly about myself. It's like an experiment to find out if the virtual life can in any way be of use for the real life. Sometimes it can, sometimes not. For me, as I am always very devoted to what I do, it was too stressful. I found out that Steemit has the potential for compensating things I might lack in my daily life but always needs a new "refill" so to speak. And it's a mirror to what goes on in the world of matter. Still, one can find beauty and people here, where a closer contact can be established.
Where are you from?
Good day & Happy Easter for you!
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Phew... at least, know I know, why you haven't been around for almost two weeks...
First of all, I'm left sitting here with my moth open 😯 ...and some twelve linked windows and videos. Lots to chew on for sure. Since its late, I will most likely not get much further tonight 😳
I once read a definition of (artistic) genius, where they claimed, that you are a genius, when you are just a little bit ahead of the pack. If you are too far out there, they look at you as a freak (be quiet! 😜) so you need to offer just enough, which the others are familiar with... you officially qualify. I know I understood part of the headline!!
Well, actually some of the rest too and now also some of the things you wrote in past posts. For instance did I think so far, that systemic thingy was some term related to your work while its actually a way to... ahm... perceive (?) the world...?
Reality and perception are things I like to think about too as an artist. And you definitely offer a lot of interesting food for thought. Although my brain feels like the 8MHz processor from my 27 year old mac classic 🤯
When I started reading, I kept a note pad at hand, so I could scribble down things I didn't want to forget. I wrote down:
In a way, a "scientific view" is also one of trust in my opinion. For most people anyways. For me the existence of atoms isn't any more plausible than the existence of god. I have never seen either, and only trust who ever I want to believe..
Well, you wrote about that much better just a few lines down. You have the brilliant mind, I could easily fall in love with! And no, I'm not smoking anything 😇 Nevertheless, its becoming hard for me at this time of the night to add anything of value.. particularly since you didn't seem to have left much to say (staring at the open windows 😵.... 😱)
But, since you are an artist in a way (bothered me, that Donella H. Meadows left out "art" in her quote) I invite you to the artistbehindthearttreat. No, you know what?.. I think I'd like to challenge you, even if its not a challenge 😎 ...and I have your art on the blockchain, so no excuses 😇
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Thank you, my friend.
I am glad that you take the effort to rummage through this monster of an article and its videos. It really is time-consuming. I appreciate a lot that you have the openness and curiosity to engage.
Thanks for giving me the qualification of not appearing freakish :-) LOL. Sometimes I am classified as one. And an annoying one, too. You give me hope and you give me company and that is so much worth in sharing.
Great, it hits what I try to say when I talk about science. As life cannot be fully understood and my lifespan is sandwiched between my birth and death, I should give care to this milestones in order to understand that without giving meaning to the two, there is little meaning in life itself.
Sorry that Donella left the arts out but you know what? I am most certain that she involved them internally. Art for me is essential, that much you know already.
Thank you for the invitation to the @artistbehindthearttreat. Shall I send you a picture of mine? Please explain. I read your article but I am not sure what do do. :-)
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I have by now read most of what you wrote again and slowly but surely a little more is sinking in. Have to postpone the videos to next week, when I'm drawing again. I can draw and listen at the same time!! YAY! Now I'm trying to give shape to the idea for a new painting and that needs my full attention. Unless I take a break. Like now 😁
Oh, for the artistbehindthearttreat? OK, chances are, that it might actually be to simple for you (giggle)... 😋
Alright, if you read the post, you already know, there are no rules. So I already had in mind inviting you when I wrote that...
The "spicy" ones per weTransfer in high resolution directly to my email address please!
Everything else, please nicely wrapped up in a post about yourself, like I did here
Using the "artistbehindthearttreat" tag will be greatly appreciated :-)
edit:
Seh grad, das ist wirklich nicht ganz klar was man machen soll wenn man eingeladen ist. Ich hängs gleich dran :-)
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I like how you interpret the butterfly effect in your 'systemic world view'. I also enjoyed how you combined philosophy and science, even though in reality they are never apart, but people often forget that philosophy is 'the mother' of science.
Only a fool would claim that they live in a two dimensional world where their actions and interactions have no influence on the 'outside world'.
It's funny how humans talk about "being objective" when "objective" is a subjective term in it's nature - created and defined by us. Is there a true objective point of view ? And if there is, are capable to understand it ? If you apply this logic - feedback and negative loops are the most natural thing - after all they are the final product of our incapability to understand and describe the Universe we live in.
There's still a lot to learn, but knowledge would only 'come to us' when we think about and discuss such topics. I am glad that this is only the first part of your series and yet it's already multi-layered and thought-provoking.
Cheers for the content ;)
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Thank you, you put in short what I wanted to transport. Your comment is well appreciated.
The second part will be tough, it needs thorough preparation and research.
You made a little mistake in the wording, it is "systemic" instead of "systematic" :)
Sometimes I think that I already have said everything I wanted to say and there is nothing more to add.
And yes, thank you for pointing out that "philosophy and science are never apart".
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The mistake has been corrected!
I am glad you understood my point anyway. Always a pleasure to read your posts!
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Great write-up of something I think about a lot (in philosophy). Will be interested to read your next articles to see what you have to say about this more, and also if you will be able to go into the consequences of this approach, among which are relativism and nihilism. I think that is a necessary part of this discussion, because those are a danger to any system of thought.
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Thank you. I will consider that and am glad you pointed that out. It will take some time to write the second part. I hope you are well, sister :-)
P.S. actually you dropped here to the bottom. I want you a little higher and so I will remove my vote and then upvote again. So don't be irritated.
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This seems not only quite simplistic but also mistaken.
In fact, today we are facing less poverty, less crime, less hunger, less war, less violence than ever before in human history. Life expectancy is going up in almost every country, more and more people are breaking free from absolute poverty and so on.
This has not only but as well to do with the disregard of irrational beliefs such as a "pure state of nature" (I'm looking at you, Rousseau).
The stricter we distance ourselves from our savage nature, the more peaceful human societes become.
Anyway. I do agree, there are feedback loops in every interaction we experience, but this does not mean, we have always to be aware of them to achieve a better life for ourself and the ones around us.
As far as I understand it, systemics seems to have a lot in common with philosophical constructivism, especially when it comes to perception of reality and concepts like objectivity. It is quite likely, that we will never be able to perceive reality as it really is, but we don't need to as long as we have methods, which aren't relying on human perception, thus can at least get some degree of objectivity.
Additionally, I'm not sure, if I agree with your conclusion, that systemics is the best offer there is.
For example: I don't think, communication without violence is always a good idea - sometimes it's not only useful but necessary to communicate in a violent way to ensure certain goals.
It seems to me, if you choose a strictly systemic approach, you will get trapped in a limbo of relativity at some point, because you have no way of agreeing on universal truths (or call them axioms), which are necessary for the survival of a society.
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Even if this were true, what's the point if we're killing the planet in the process?
From these comments and from your sparse writings I can see that you are a true believer in the religion of Scientism, the belief that science is the only rational way to view the cosmos and that other views are without merit. In addition, you are a Humanistic Materialist, one who believes that the material world is the only thing worthwhile knowing and that humanity is the most important life form on the planet. Even your handle: @egotheist smacks of the belief that your own mind is somehow something to believe in and worship, even dietific, a very adolescent position to take.
Take a few minutes to read this post about materialism and humanism. It's quite right-brained analytical and so right up your alley. No point in me reinventing the wheel here.
I see that you are quiet young and full of yourself, far too young to have closed your mind and formed such strong opinions. I realize that your beliefs are reflections of Western philosophy, which is woefully unevolved at this stage of human development. I cut you slack because, you're still young, still reeling from the programming of your education and on the cusp of the experiential phase of your life. Hopefully, you'll open back up and continue to grow.
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You dirty stupid dumbass! Get out of here and shut the fuck up!!!
That is violence, correct?
How do you prefer to be talked to?
What are you supposed to do when you get stuck in a negative loop without wanting?
Say, when you have a conflict with another one who accuses you of something you weren't even aware of doing, what is your reaction? Because the other perceived you as a harmful or ignorant person. What would you do? Would you try to solve the conflict? How would you do that, without strengthening the conflict?
Are you telling me that you don't want to rely on your perception? But that is what you and I are doing every day of our lives. You have your perception and I have mine.
I have a question: When you would have to consult a couple from another culture and where the woman is pregnant and her husband does not want that she gives birth in a clinic because other men could see and embarrass her. How would you create a winning situation for all participants involved? I mean to acknowledge their culture and not violate the present culture where they live in at the same time. Do you have a solution for that? What would be the objective view on that? Is there a difference between an objective and a systemic view?
I wanted to encourage you to take your time and experiment with this view on a personal level.
There is no strict usage of this view even in sight. And that is also not meant. It is an ideal which should be idealistic in order to shoot at this goal. One never will reach it fully. But if you are lacking an ideal form of communication, where do you put yourself for orientation?
Let's take a scale where 1 is the worst way of communication (always nay-saying, rejecting everything and using violent speech) and 10 the best way (using non-violent communication, considering the possibility that another perception might have its point, choosing cooperation instead of separation). What is your life experience telling you? That you rarely get to 10, isn't that so? Which is okay because we are not flawless. Would it be okay for you to move somewhere in the middle?
The systemic view offers in its practical applications a middle way. At least in the realm, I am practicing.
Thanks for commenting and annoying me :-)
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This is a good, analytical article and is important in that it points out the inherent unity in everything, at least from a materialistic standpoint. Very Western. Very Scientific. I'm happy to see that it has been well received in the #steemstem community. Those right-brainers need a bit of a wake-up call.
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waaw really nice to read your post, and feeling happy to see you posting again :) , thank you
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Hey,
Interesting text, I think that these ideas have emrged from many different disciplines not just systems biology. For instance Jean Piaget also once said: "What we see changes what we know and what we know changes what we see".Are you perhaps familiar with Predictive Processing? I am trying to specialize in this area of cognitive science and many of these themes reoccur in a slightly different format. This paradigm basically states that our brain functions as a prediction machine, always trying to explain away the uncertainty over our sensations. I realize that this may be a different usage of the world uncertainty. But as a scientist I do not think scientists in any real sense what to explain away all epistemic uncertainty. Realizing what we do not actually know is how I go about generating new hypotheses. I would say that human nature is constitued by a drive to reduce uncertainty, but this doesn't mean we will seclude ourselves into empty rooms that are fully certain, quite the opposite! We are ever drawn to reduce new uncertainties.
To quote Karl Friston on this matter:
"Conversely, in a completely unpredictable world (i.e., a world with no precise sensory evidence, such as a dark room) there is no opportunity and all uncertainty is irreducible—a joyless world. Boredom is simply the product of explorative behavior; emptying a world of its epistemic value—a barren world in which all epistemic affordance has been exhausted through information seeking"
source
I think this can be applied to systematic as well. In the process of reducing uncertainty, we create systems that are rigid and create the equivalent of an epistemically empty room. I would necessarily pit science and uncertainty against one another, the two go hand in hand. But I guess that is the point you are making?
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Thank you very much for engaging, I appreciate that.
Correct. That is what I tried to say. The connection is the "and" between science and certainty. One goes with the other. As we live in a complex world and cannot learn any longer through osmosis in direct contact to the physical natural realm and the social tribe is also not directly but only indirectly available we need the sciences to explain the world because it doesn't explain itself just so.
For example: as an early farmer a couple of thousand years ago it was totally clear to me that climate, season, soil, plants and animals and also myself were acting within a circular "behaving environment". I was seeing, touching, hearing and smelling the impacts of the living systems. And I felt myself as being a part of it. It didn't occur to me to exclude me from this entire living systems. Like the fish which probably isn't much "thinking" of the element water which surrounds it. My farmer's life and that of my tribe were bound to nature and physical elements in which no waste was ever produced. All that went in went also out.
I wasn't thinking about the chemical formulas of the air I breathe, the water I drink and the food I ate. And so on and so forth.
Today, I am not having this experiences and must learn about all kinds of systems in order to understand reality. Which makes it different (and I would also say more difficult). Now I am facing uncountable multiple disciplines and processes and I realize I cannot and will not understand them all. That is impossible. Complexity is frightening and in order to not feel that way I must come to a point where I feel certainty about my stand in the world.
Thanks for the quote from Jean Piaget, I liked it a lot.
Exactly. I do not know about all the others because I was educated in systemics. That is the point, right?
What we try as humans are to come to conclusions and we are lacking the "world knowledge" but often come independently to the same results. What I try is to see if I am in good company or must fear the majority, hence, becoming isolated from the social group.
Someone told me that probably Leibnitz was the last one who had a general knowledge about the world and all who came after represent their narrowed knowledge in their disciplines. Doesn't matter if that is correct but it shows the point.
To not become frustrated or despaired about this I am trying to put "ethics" into the field. For me, it is the connecting link (and provides certainty/trust where I cannot find it elsewhere). The demands are high. What I perceive is that the pace of creating new hypothesis is going to escalate the fewer people on earth are bound to their land. Which I see as not only beneficial but problematic. How about you?
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I don't think Leibnitz was the last one, Goethe for instance is a shinning example of someone who strived to extend his world knowledge instead of specializing in a single niche. Nietzsche thought he was the closest person to an "Uebermensch" because he didn't restrict his knowledge to a single facet of his life. For instance he used his insiration towards nature not only to write poetry, but also to create laws that ensured public parks. He was also the last non-scientist to conduct empirically valuable experiments.
I am more inclined to think about ideals than ethics, since science and technology do not contain any inherent meaning. But I do think science does help in informing ideals, after all scientist must also hold beliefs in order to generate new ideas. I think science offers a unique method of probing and controlling for our beliefs, which is what seperates it from a purely dogmatic religion. I do not think generating more and more hypotheses is in itself a problem, since new scientific discoveries also reveal new uncertanties. The problem I see is that people may start worshipping science as some kind of deity and stop ackknowledging uncertainty. Science cannot give anything meaning after all...
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Thank you. Yes, those are good points of yours, dácord. In particular what you said about "new scientific discoveries also reveal new uncertainties". I remember that scandal about "Contergarn", a pharmaceutical specimen which caused severely disabled newborn babies. Or the research about placebos ... or ... hypnoses connected with anesthesia which they investigate in France when I remember correctly.
I need some more clarification about "ideals" and how you define and include them in your personal life.
I myself have difficulties to define an ideal without pulling ethics on one hand and role models on the other hand. The third factor is the social realm in which it is allowed to debate ethics and let me being taught from those who study what is attached to birth and death in the sense of giving me spiritual guidance in experiencing an inherent meaning.
For example: The fact of death directs me towards having a spiritual problem. This problem I like to discuss with a person who is educated in spiritual matters and also does not lecture me from an isolated but an embedded place. Say, being a member of a community where giving company to the dying people is actively practiced. Which, as a consequence shows me some reputation in order to feel trust in the provided services.
Without these supporting mental and physical realms, I wouldn't know what and who is representing this ideal. Where do I have to place myself? When the ideal is too low - like nobody I know can serve as one - I lack orientation to where I can look.
Following this logic, this led me to my personal life to begin to study religion and re-think my Christian experiences within the community I grew up in.
After giving you this brief derivation of mine I would like to read yours if you don't mind. I think you are a sensible and good debating partner.
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Well I hardly disagree with you here, I use ideals in the sense of meta-ethics or reasons to behave ethically. To put it the other way arounf, ethics are applied ideals. For me, ideals presuppose ethical dilemmas and I typically boil it down principles that help us form meaningful relationships. I think death is key here too, because it directs you towards the search for meaning. I think when Heidegger was asked how people could live more meaningful lives, he said they should visit cemeteries more often.
With regard to science and ideals, I think you can probe ideals in a scientific manner. The scientific manner necessitates that we test our assumptions meticulously and so we should also use this to test our ideals.
Another point worth mentioning is that science has increased the average life expectancy, but it hasn't necessarily made people happier in their entirety. One could hardly argue that hunter-gatherers were unhappier. Individuals were always surrounded by their family and friends. Personally I believe in forming meaningflu connections to others, which is (I) talking with them and not them, (II) learning to love people for their differences and not just looking for people that remind you of yourself. Not to say I don't like people with common interests though :D .
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"Visiting a cemetery", what a good example! You know a lot, that is for sure. What you said reminded me of Alan Watts' lectures where he talked about that Zen Masters always answer worldly when being asked a spiritual matter and answer in a spiritual manner when being asked a secular question.
It's always an act of balance to accomplish the task of not rejecting people for their differences and welcome their perspective. Common interests are the ground to feel commonality.
I am looking forward to what you come up with next.
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Complicated task to define life and reality. I feel you, I am also writing long articles about science and sometimes I make a compromise as to what makes it and what doesn't. Your work is appreciated,cheers!
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Many thanks to you.
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This topic of life view and objectivity is so hard to grasp...
I'm currently reading an entire book that interprets a single chapter written by Wilfred R. Bion on very similar topics. He tries to define what we cannot grasp, but as there are no words to describe it (because we can't grasp it, and therefore we can't even think it or imagine it), he just uses a letter, O, to encompass all the things we simply can't.
This is a very confusing topic, and very mind-boggling, and I really think you wrote about it quite well. I'm not even close to understanding any of it, but it's easier to accept that such a viewpoint even exists when it's explained properly :-)
Following to see what you'll write next. Hope you follow back.
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LOL! I have to laugh about the attempt from Mr. Bion to put into language what is not letting itself being put into language.
What cannot be grasped is what I tried to leave open with the term "uncertainty" - which withdraws itself from spoken words or formula.
But is still a matter of feeling and intuition. Maybe also explained with the absence of something. When you paint a picture and after it's done you would extract all the yellow out of it and then present it to a viewer without telling him that you pulled out the yellow. Maybe he wouldn't come up with the exact answer but would say that it doesn't look quite right (or odd) or something is missing he cannot grasp.
I have often a feeling when reading or listening to something and I cannot exactly tell what's bothering me. That is the moment of being true to myself and make a decision.
Thank you for commenting and complementing me.
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Detailed and highly interesting.
I've considered what "reality" is myself, and have not come to any end-point where I can say I fully grasp it.
We're continuously living in the past, the rate by which the neural impulses travel to our brains (and is then mapped internally using our mental filters) means we're perpetually living in the "near-now", but most certainly not the PRESENT.
Stumbling along, we try to piece things together as they have already happened, and predict to a small degree what will happen as best we can.
To your point about feedback loops, it overlaps well with something called "emergent complexity" where small systems interacting with each other, or simple rule-based things, produce outputs of amazing depth and variation.
Stephen Wolfram is a leader in this area - Introductory post - http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2017/05/a-new-kind-of-science-a-15-year-view/
Full Free Text Online - https://www.wolframscience.com/nks/
His book "A New Kind of Science" focuses on this kind of phenomenon as exhibited by his cellular automata, simple rulesets that change pixels on a graph, but end up not being so simple in output.
For instance:
I recommend looking through it, there may be local translated texts available as well.
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Thank you very much, I appreciate that you followed my question to read this article.
I will have a deeper look on what you recommended to me, the work of Stephen Wolfram. It will take me some time. As I had many comments to answer today I feel that I am getting tired. I do want to give credit to your reply so I don't want to become hasty (which I deeply dislike).
Enjoy the rest of what's left of this day.
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I started reading but did not come far. I thought of including it into my second part but it did not fit really. Bummer. As the author is using a language and form of communication which is difficult for me to approach it will give me some headaches:) But I thank you a lot for it.
I hope we stay in touch.
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Thank you so much for sharing this information. I am really interested in this and it will take me while to go through this and read up and listen to much more! I am extremely interested. Thanks.
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You are welcome:)
I hope you will enjoy digging deeper into this topic and take your time.
Many thanks to you, too for your reply.
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Yes, apparently we tend to conceptualize things separately, and then we immerse ourselves in that idea of separation, forgetting that everything is really one.
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