The Old Dog Discusses: The Tax Man Commeth! Will Someone be Building an App?

in taxes •  7 years ago  (edited)


Yes I know, who feels like talking about taxes! I don't, but here I go!


As more and more regulations are being put on crypto I think that it will become increasingly important that:

  1.  We are aligned with projects that are compliant (if not they risk legal action!).
  2. We inform ourselves as to what our tax obligations are and we do our best to pay as little as possible.


Up until this time the authorities in the  jurisdiction of Switzerland where I live have been taking a wait and see attitude and I haven't had to worry about taxation. Things are changing though. 

Just last week an article appeared in our local paper which explained some changes to the tax laws and I've done my best to translate it from the Italian for you. I have put the main points of the article in bold.



Photo credit: Pixabay.com

This is The Translation of an Article That Appeared in Our Local Paper


Most likely things will be somewhat similar in your area. If you take the time to read it through you will see that the article speaks of Capital Gains (which are not taxable where I live in some instances) and income through mining. Since we are in a sense doing mining (with our minds as it were) it would appear that this will qualify as taxable income.


Here's the article which was written by Samuel Vorpe:

 The Taxation of Crypto Currencies!   (Giornale del Popolo March 6, 2018)


In recent times many people have been infected by the fever of crypto currencies and have decided to invest part of their assets in virtual money. The latter, in addition to constituting an investment, are also increasingly used by people as a means of payment without the need of using a financial intermediary.    

Just yesterday the division of the contributions of the Canton Ticino, following what has been done also by other cantonal authorities (Zurich, Zug and Lucerne) has published its practice to facilitate a correct tax declaration of crypto currencies. First of all it should be noted that the possession of units of crypto is, from an economic standpoint, comparable to the possession of cash or precious metals and therefore constitutes part of a persons assets.   

Not only Bitcoin, but all crypto currencies are subject tax declaration (e.g. Ethereum, Onecoin, Dash, Litecoin, Ripple, etc.) and are taxable income for the purposes of tax on the substance on the basis of the value at 31 December.   

The value of the crypto currency is determined on the basis of official lists issued by the Federal Tax Administration (FTA). The tax office therefore considers the crypto as true foreign currency.    

If we take Bitcoin, at the end of 2017, its units corresponded to a value of CHF 13.784,38. This amount must be entered in the tax declaration, in particular in the form of the list of securities and other placements of capital under the heading "Other values and credits". As evidence, the taxpayer may include with the declaration a print of the CD "wallet" (the digital portfolio in which are held the crypto currencies).   

Since the acquired crypto is essentially equal to performing a "currency exchange", what is obtained is a gain or loss by the taxpayer. As regards tax on income, since crypto qualifies as a security, it is necessary to assess whether these coins belong to the owner privately as a taxpayer or to a commercial entity.   

When they belong privately to the taxpayer, the profit achieved is, in principle, exempt from tax (art. 15 para. 3 LT, art. 16 para. 3 LIFD), resp. losses are not deductible.    

When instead they belong to a commercial entity, the profit is taxable, while losses deductible (art. 17 para. 2 LT, art. 18 para. 2 LIFD).   

 It must however be noted that in the course of the years the jurisprudence of the Federal Court has made it more difficult to achieve exemptions from income tax. According to the Federal Supreme Court the profits deriving from an activity that goes beyond the simple administration of private resources represent an income from gainful activities independently and also goods used for such activities constitute commercial goods, even in the absence of any activities organized in the form of a real undertaking.    

The AFC has therefore published in its circular  n. 36 of 27 July 2012, which is also applicable to cases of crypto currencies. In this document are defined criteria that, if CUMULATIVELY FULFILLED, exclude the taxable income of  capital gains achieved.    

Finally it can also be noted that payment of wages and salaries in crypto are also taxable as well as the crypto gained through mining.     


Steemit And Tax Planning


Since we are working with an open source blockchain it should be fairly easy to extract all of the data necessary for an income tax report (as distasteful as this may be).

I would like to see the development of a program that could "pull off of" the blockchain the data pertinent to individual Steemers in their personal jurisdictions. The app could, for instance, differentiate  between what was a capital gain and what was "mined". It would also be capable of doing so after having specific search periods or dates entered.

Not only would such an app help individual Steemers but it could protect Steemit.com from any claims that it was not interested in compliance.

Would You be Interested in Helping to Build a Tax Planning App?


Perhaps an App which helps with taxes already exists and if so please let me know in the comments. If not, would you be interested seeing one made or even in working on such a project?

The project could be funded by writing progress reports about its development and I'd be willing to help in any way possible.


What are your thoughts on this topic? 



Until next time,


@kus-knee (The Old Dog)

Let's Succeed Together!

 


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Even though taxation is theft and I disagree with it on all accounts, I am at a point in my life where it would be more sensable for me to stay "legal". That being said, I would definitely welcome an app of this sort.
@jesta has already created a script that will pull all of this info for corresponding account/accounts, but you have to be technoligically inclined to a certain level to know how to use it....which I'm not. Lol

I hear you, I understand you and I feel for you! Thanks for the insight on @jetsa's script.

Luckily, staying "legal" doesn't necessarily mean "paying". ;)

You bet!

Ciao Old Dog! Visto che siamo compaesani ti scrivo in italiano. Non me ne intendo molto ma, che tu sappia, c’e una soglia minima per la dichiarazione delle tasse? Cioè, indipendentemente a quanto ammonti la somma dei guadagni in capital gains andrà dichiarata?
In queste cose sono abbastanza una capra.

  ·  7 years ago (edited)

You are not taxed on capital gains. You can be taxed on your “sostanza” but only once it is over 300,000! Of course there are many deductions including your mortgage if you have one so it’s not so easy to get to that level.

At that point it is 1% of every Franc over that amount.

Tax on the mining aspect is another thing since it is considered as earned income.

I will be speaking with my accountant more about this but in the meantime @steemitri posted a link to the circular put out by Canton Ticino in comments here.

I guess I’ll stick to english... Thank you! And thanks to @steemitri as well. I’ll rely on you guys to not end up in jail : )

Tutte e due vanno bene!

If I can be of any help let me know. Over 7 months, I've been building an e-book for U.S. Taxpayers including a dedicated section for Steem. It is the theory side of crypto taxes, not an app. I wouldn't be particularly useful for development, rather testing expected outcomes; at least from a U.S perspective. I recently reviewed Coinbase's tax tool for example.

Ok thanks a lot. I'm going through the information that a few users here have pointed me towards and I hope to get back to you.

Well, first off, this should not be construed as advice to avoid taxes. You should pay your taxes and otherwise be a law abiding citizen.

That being said, you can't use bitcoin to avoid paying your income taxes.

When people talk about avoiding taxes with bitcoin they are usually talking about capital gains tax.

That is the tax you pay on investments, like stocks or bonds. In most countries this is 20% or above.

As bitcoin exchanges are not currently required to report the trading activities of their users the government cannot know what you may have earned or lost in trading bitcoin, though as a law abiding citizen, you are supposed to report it on your tax return. Thereby illustrating how the unscrupulous may avoid taxes, by simply forgetting to report earnings.

But you wouldn't do that right?

Yes it is a complicated issue.

What could the future punishments be for people who refuse to report though? My guess could be surveillance, scrutiny by law enforcement, possible investigations, it may not be worth it.

Very good topic for me. Mining is same as earned income and regular taxes can apply to it and capital gains occurs when our bought crypto appreciate in value and we cash it in our currency. There should be an app to differentiate the both as pointed out by your article.
The problem can be the conversion rate to the local currency to tax the mining part. I think it can be the average rate for the whole year.
But there can be problem again if we have paid taxes on mined steem for a year based on that year's average conversion rate, what about if the price of steem appreciate in later years? Do they tax again as capital gain? I think it is going to be problematic as cryptorich pals will go the courts and taxman have to face many challenges to tax cryptos!

It is a complicated issue. Here they require a time stamp with value as of Dec 31st. The problem is that the value value Jan 1st could be 50% less!

Here in Switzerland we don't pay any Capital Gains taxes but there is a wealth tax on any value over Frs 300,000. I'm not looking forward to working through this problem but I will be speaking to my accountant here in Switzerland to try and work through this in least painful way.

You could be a very valuable resource and reference point for Canadian Steemers and Crypto enthusiasts.

I will be back with more information over the next few months.

Owk to me this is good news even though I know some might think otherwise. I have always said that the problem isn't being taxed of regulations placed on crypto. Right now ,out major bone of contention is general acceptability if crypto. If we can't win that battle then we can't win the battle of taxing.

So I guess we should focus more on getting crypto out there until everyone agrees that crypto is a currency like every other currency as stated here...

The tax office therefore considers the crypto as true foreign currency.

Once wev been able to do this then we can relax and fight those imposing tax and other regulations on crypto.

Although I may not be so happy with the idea of bringing in taxes in to crypto, I feel it is duly necessary. I knew this was something that couldn't be avoided, the top 1% is still finding their way in.
If the taxes are used for the proper reason although, then I see nothing wrong with it. But will it?

About the app, I currently am in touch with a bunch of software developers who will be interested in something like this. Although I am sort of one myself, I don't believe I possess the skills required to pull this off completely.
Will be reaching out to them at once and will make a feedback here if the outcome is positive.

And thank you @kus-knee for your interest in trying protecting to protect steemit.com from any form of legal incompliance.

The•Hooded•Pantomath

here are a few things i have either wrote or rebloged over the past month or so. you will find them very helpfull

https://steemit.com/steemit/@louisthomas/226w4x3i

https://steemit.com/steem/@doomsdaychassis/gearing-up-for-filing-taxes-in-2018

https://steemit.com/bitcon/@the-bitcoin-dood/an-afternoon-at-the-accountants-crypto-taxes

read all 3 and you should be pretty good to go on where and how to gather the required info as painlessly as possible. hope this helps

sorry for the self upvote but i was trying to get this where it can be seen for the information contained.

Amazing topic my friend @kus-knee ! I enjoyed your content. Keep up the good work! It's always nice to see good content here on Steemit

Great topic and You pick a great topic Thanks for sharing
Perhaps an App which helps with taxes already exists I think there is no app available but we all interested to built such an app

interesting post once again thanks for sharing your knowledge :)

very good story...my dear friend @kus-knee.
I am very lucky to follow your post,
thank you for sharing your post..i love your post....i'm new your to blog..

I'm definitely interested in helping with this. I work with a team of developers and can help with this if we can get enough interest/support.

Now we're gonna have to pay tax to crypto as well.
That sucks..
I don't know much about tax, but reading this article I understand that we won't have to pay tax for capital gain.
If that's true , an app would be really helpful to differentiate..

Tax Planning App Will be great invention for the crypto traders

It would be great if we have an app to plan our taxes,
how can I help you with this initiative?

Of a truth, cryptocurrency is a currency of its own @kus-knee. Taxing might be a great issue especially for people in my country. It might take a while to develop a process and a sytem that would be able to calculate the right tax for indivuduals using cryptocurrency.

I thought that one of the advantages of crytocurrencies was that it was so public that personal trackings were hardly possible?

An application to determine taxation for cryptos can be really helpful.

Infact it would become necessary when such laws as you described in your Italian local newspaper would come into existence.

I think this app would be quite beneficial :)

Though I am from a different country, but applications can reach anywhere cant they ?

Sooner or later such tax laws will hit my countrymen as well.

We would surely require such an application that time.

IMG_0024.PNG

Now we also have to pay digital tax money
this is something I do not like

For sure an app will be helpful and make it easier for people to file taxes. Like eTax. I have already a name for this new app: cryptoTax or simply cTax 😁

This is a topic that really concerns me for the future. But since there are no regulations taking place for now at Greece I don't bother my self with that much.

Hi OldDog!
Was just reading the info from tax office...
https://www4.ti.ch/dfe/dc/basi-legali/basi-legali/

Thanks Kus... what is it?

It's a place to get reports off of the Steem blockchain that can be be used for income tax! A necessary evil!

Oh thanks. I need a tool, to check my STEEM balance on 31 december 2017.

Did you see our latest Trading Card?

I will have some exciting news for you at the end of this week!

I had a phone call today with @airmatti and we spoke a little bit abuut the steemtradecards project ;-) I like your last card, and I have a lot of respect for @lukestokes.
Some news for Steemitri?!?! Oh sounds awesome :-)

It would be an interesting app.

How do you keep it up to date for the many thousands of tax jurisdictions worldwide?

I think we need one last year, right?

You've posted a great topic .... and I think your thoughts are very good ... and you can create great posts.

You are right, all these cryptos coming up, and alts r confusing, the regulations will control them, and we need to check so we don't buy illegal and fake coins.

I am very lucky to follow your post, thank you for the information.

Wow Boss

Definetly this would help a lot of steemers since regulations are being defined!

As tax payers we should demand to see just where our tax Dollars (and Swiss Franks) go. I am not talking about a one page simple graph that shows an allocation of funds into several government agencies like they proudly send us here in Australia. If they want to tax cryptocurrency then they are legitimising it, let us pay taxes in crypto. Since the government is such a trustworthy and transparent organisation, let us view on the blockchain where the funds go. That wouldn't be a problem would it?

got to learn about many things that i was not aware of before :)

Amazing post my friend Although I may not be so happy with the idea of bringing in taxes in to crypto, I feel it is duly necessary. I knew this was something that couldn't be avoided, When people talk about avoiding taxes with bitcoin they are usually talking about capital gains tax.thanks for sharing

Wonderful article..

Omg. I do not like it ? Do I understand right? They will take, per example, what amount steem is worth on the 31 st of December? When do you have to pay your tax? Looks so wrong ?? when it is still steem how can they consider it an income?
I hate my english is not correct enough to take part in this discussion.

wow @kus-knee.. now you have to pay tax for owning bitcoin or another currency .. 

that's wrong for that .. thank you here in venezuela we do not pay tax .. with respect to which steemit is an open source I was reading an article of a new application that they are going to take it out that I think it's great there, they'll tell you how much you've earned in total, etc. 

visit blog @steem-plus there I saw the publication.

My first thought on this is what regulatory body will be in charge of the tax levied on crypto? What will the proceeded realized from the taxation be use for?

There should also be a particular means for the calculation on the tax that will be levied on individual. The rate of income of individual steemians are different. Some earns cents will others earn dollars in large amount. Tax should also be considered based on the movement of the crypto market.

As per building of an app that will help in regulation levied tax, that is a very welcome idea. This app should be able to show how the amount deducted are being calculated, the app should be able to give an up to date information on the current market happening in the crypto world.

My view

this is a very important topic dear friend @ kus-knee, a while ago I read here on the platform of some developers who had created a way to extract a list with all the compensations from day zero to date, commented in the post that he did thinking about the new regulations and that surely could be more strict in them, was an advance, clarified that he was not an accountant or an expert in the field so he did not know if it could have a legal validity and gave a series of indications to get to it, I must admit that for my knowledge tecniso was quite complicated, for that reason I did not pursue the matter.
I was looking for the post but I could not allar, it occurs to me that the insurance can help you is @timcliff, sure he had to have seen this post that I mention.
I regret that my information is amedia.
however, I will continue looking, if I find you I will notify you.

Sounds like a needed tax plan for us Steemians.

You are right today more and more people are moving towards crypto and invest their assets in crypto.But i think it will benefit .
EVerywhere taxes are increasing and crypto is the only solution

Great show, I like it!
wonderful.............thanks for sharing

the developers can really contribute that to the utopian and it will be open source and rewarding loved the idea lets see how everyone comes up with :D

Well, my friend... I see Nadia-hassan spammed you too. I think he (she?) is the world's fastest reader! The income tax code in America is illegal, based on falsehoods. When they can show me the law, I'll pay the tax!!!

Very nice i like it,,,,,,,,,,
That's really great..............//////////////

Thanks for sharing this @Kus-knee. Quite an interesting topic, on the one hand its great that governments are taking more notice of blockchain technologies. This can only strengthen the appeal for cryptos especially to traditional investors. The flipside is that more tax could counter the advantages of certian blockchains by increasing fees and other threats. I am back to Steem now after a few weeks off and have some great content to share. I will explore this post with my own analysis so thanks for the inspiration!
Another great post.
regards
Ash

With every passing moment of 2018 i am observing more and more innovations in crypto world. If this happens what is written Giornale del Popolo then creating an app for the tax ensurnace would be really GREAT!

The tax office therefore considers the crypto as true foreign currency.

If the officials consider it foreign currency then it would drag the case before legislative authorities in my pinion and lets see what happens in the future!

IMHO, probably any such app will have only some utility for short term.

It's difficult to evaluate the value of any crypto in the local fiat curency unless crypto-exchanges are legalized. Who will judge what's the value of the crypto-assets in the absence of exchanges? Today, the whole crypto-market is very volatile. Also, there is a huge difference in rates among various crypto-exchanges and the difference increases when country specific crypto-exchanges are taken into account. But everyone is free to trade in his/her exchange of choice. Also, there is a little fluctuation in rates of local fiat vis-a-vis USD which is being used to transact crypto from fiat. So which rates would be considered for taxation purposes?

IMO, in the coming times, advanced privacy features on blockchains will be developed and it won't be easy for anyone to check your activity on that blockchain. So tax authority will need to depend on self-declaration of assets.

In my country, taxation rules say that a citizen needs to pay tax even on income from theft, robbery or any other illegal means. But how many people do that?

Good tool for calculating all earnings from Steem blockchain.

In Ukraine we still don't have taxes for crypto. I guess the main reason is a fact that our politics are holding Bitcoin ( that is not legally considered a currency in our country, but anytime you can buy bitcoin in the largest state bank 😁😂😂😂). A true circus.

It can be assumed that in the next 1-2 years in the most advanced countries, crypto-currencies will receive a final definition, according to which over the next few years, tax legislation will be created, possibly adapted exclusively for crypto-currencies.

Got to give the devil his due! Remember that is how they got Al Capone!

Thanks For share this @kus-knee
thank-you-140227_1280.jpg

I'd appreciate this kind of app. As far as I know there is no mining in Steem. There is earned income like from any service and then there is capital gains. SBD for sure is earned income but Steem Power I don't know what it is since it's not something you can sell without converting it.

You might find my SteemReports tool useful:
http://steemreports.com/accounts-reporting-tool/

It's far from perfect, and I'm intending to develop more soon, but the current low-value of Steem is delaying me a bit, as other projects take greater priority.

I was just about to write an article about steemreports and in particular the section referred to here: http://steemreports.com/accounts-reporting-tool/

I noticed that due to no fault of your own it is not working right now. Could you please contact me via Steemit.chat when it is ready to go again?

Thanks for your great work!

@exyle pointed me toward your project. I am very interested in it and would love to see you continue to develop it. The comments here show that there is both an interest and a need. What can we do to help/get involved?

I guess if people follow @steemreports and vote for my development on tax reporting software, it certainly helps - as would any donations ;) Also, feedback about users specific requirements would be useful to ensure I'm taking things in the right direction. I'm based in the UK, and have been developing it partly to help with my own tax, but I think the broad principles are the same in most other countries.

At the moment, the easiest way to determine income, is using the financial accounts summary tool, but capital gains are found using the accounts reporting tool. This is a bit messy, and I'm hoping to combine these aspects into one tool.

I am willing to provide some general feedback in the perspecive of a U.S. user. If that would be helpful let me know and I can contact you. As a FYI my account was created in mid 2017, I beleive there is a note on the tool regarding pointing this out.

Ok great, I'm going to follow up on this.

Hi, you can contact me using andybets#1660 on discord or andybets on steem.chat. The tools linked above should work for accounts created during 2017.

Better to be safe than sorry

I think it will be very hard for governments to mandate the taxing of crypto without somewhat endorsing the asset class, in this respect it is positive I believe.