In my first post, i demonstrated that the downvote is necessary to efficiently make certain adjustments to the reward pool allocation. In my second post, I attempted to explain how Steemit voting is unique, in that we use it to determine, not to enforce, the rules of the platform.
Today, I would like to explain to you specifically the major effect of the cultural taboo on steemit against downvoting, and how i propose to combat it.
I suppose i should start with the cliff notes, so i don't end up putting my pitch at the end of a novel. I have started a curation trail here. The purpose of this curation trail is solely to downvote low content, automated, or statistical posts that are receiving high payouts but bring little subjective value to the platform.
and now for a science lesson:
Karenia Brevis
Karenia Brevis is is a type of microscopic marine red alge most common in costal waters near the US, canada, and South America. It is invisible and probably harmless to people and other marine life in low concentrations. It produces very small amounts of a poison called brevotoxin to defend itself against larger microscopic predators. K brevis feeds on fixed nitrogen converted from atmospheric N2 by the cyanobacteria trichodesmium (blue-green alge), and organic nitrogen from marine waste (fish poop and dead animals).
Sometimes, there will be an abundance of fixed nitrogen in some parts of the water. This can come from a Trichodesmium bloom, an abundance of dead animals or marine waste due to weather or man-made causes, or nitrate fertilizer runoff. The increase in available nutrients causes rapid growth of the k brevis population in the area. In addition to this, there can be weather or other meterological conditions that concentrate the normally relatively slow moving alge in to the area of abundant nutrients. This accelerates the natural growth of the local population even further.
Once the alge population reaches a certain critical mass, the brevotoxins that they produce begin killing off their natural competitors for food. This frees more food for them to consume, which allows them reproduce even faster. Additionally, their dead competitiors now become food when their decaying bodies release more fixed nitrogen into the water. The toxins also destroy the blue-green alge, which the k. brevis also consumes.
Eventually, the density of the K brevis population becomes so high that the brevotoxins begin killing off fish, and marine predators. As these animals decompose, they release more fixed nitrogen into the water, providing even more food for the K. Brevis bloom.
The dead fish and marine waste are eventually either consumed or moved out of the area of the bloom by tides and meteorological conditions. Without a local trichodesmium population to fix nitrogen from the atmosphere, the K. brevis, after killing off nearly everything else in the area of the bloom, dies.
What i have just described is called a red tide. It teaches us a principle that we can observe many places in nature: unconstrained growth is fundamentally destructive.
The creation of Steemit enterprises
There is a proccess that occurs on steemit which turns regular posters into enterprises. It goes something like this:
- Poster X is posting about Y. Maybe the post is objectively good, maybe bad.
- Poster X gets attention from a large whale
- The whale, brings the attention and support of other whales.
- The whale support brings in front running bots.
- The poster ends up at the top of the payout list no matter what he posts.
- Because the poster ends up at the top of the payout list no matter what he posts, he has incentive to post as much as possible.
- If his posting is actively horrible, he'll lose support from the whales. But inertia being what it is, posting that is merely lackluster usually won't lose him support.
- SO poster X has financial incentive to post as often as possible, provided he can keep the quality above terrible.
Because quantity is more important, and only a certain of quality must be maintained, poster X will strive create posts that are more general and formulaic.
Now poster X can be a person posting individually. I would argue that people like @piedpiper @stellabelle and @rok-sivante were all enterprises at one time. Poster X can also be something like @steemsports @steemvoter featured author, hidden gems, curie statistical posts, Project Cervantes. That is to say, concept posts that are not intended to be the writings of a specific author.
Steemit Posters reaching a certain critical mass tend to grow if everything stays the same
Take random concept-poster X. Set @smooth and @dantheman to auto vote everything he posts 30 minutes in. Have him post once a day for a few weeks.
His posts, regardless of quality, will grow in payment. This is due to a variety of factors, many of which were probably not considered in planning the voting system.
- front-running bots like wang and the recursives
- Cross-linked curation trails
- increased exposure on the "trending" page
- bandwagoning mini-dolphins and minnows who (incorrectly) believe voting for already-high-paying posts will bring them increased curation rewards, or who just want to be part of the percieved majority who like the post.
Enterprise Posters are not Bad. Unconstrained Growth is Bad
The posters and organizations mentioned above are not evil people, anymore than K.brevis is evil. But, given the opportunity to grow without constraint, they will grow without constraint until they are stopped, or they become large enough (and consume enough) to harm the system.
Contraints on Growth
Individual enterprise posters are constrained by the amount of time and effort that goes into composition. Because they cannot publish flatout laundry lists and expect to maintain their whale support. Since concept posters often make posts that require little or no compisiton, they are less constrained.
But with these types of posters, there is still at least a potential constraint to growth -- they have to maintain the support of the whales that backed them initially (or ones that came on board later). So they can grow, but only until the whales start to say "enough". However, these constraints are wholly theoretical. It just all depends on how much the whales backing the enterprise are willing to tolerate.
Until now, these enterprise posts have grown to the point where they created a user backlash, and that user backlash ended up costing them their whale support. However, this proccess was messy, and often engendered unnecessary bad feelings.
There is a third type of enterprise poster, however, that is not constrained in this way. It is an enterprise where the gimmick is buying votes. One such enterprise is steemvoter. This business felt completely entitled to upvote an empty post to over $90 with its users votes, because it had established its right to do so in its TOS. This was allegedly as a test, but the votes were never removed, and the comment would have paid out had @abit not flagged it (a flag steemvoter attributed to a conspiracy against him within steemit of korean gangs).
There is really no constraint on how much steemvoter, or a similar service can grow and take from the pool. The growth of enterprise posters backed by whales is troubling. The growth of enterprise posters backed by vote buying is even more troubling.
other constraints, designed into the steem curation system, are impaired by the downvoting taboo and changes to curation rewards
- Decreased curation rewards for bandwagoning -- curation rewards are already so low, that they cannot provide incentive one way or the other. Dantheman made 400 steem last week in curation rewards. Smooth like 151. The best performer was berniesanders, who got a return of 2000 steem on a 2M+ SP balance. And its very likely that much of that was due to his participation in curie, and being able to vote first there (my guess). Curation rewards that cannot provide incentive for whales cannot have a significant effect of reward distribution.
- Users, including whales, downvoting bad, overvalued content. This is proposed as the main countermeasure against bad content somehow supported on the n^2 curve. However, Even major stakeholders\owners like dantheman and ned seem hesitant to downvote material they feel is overvalued. The ned/master yoda thing and the dan/steemsports thing are a great example of this. If the taboo is so strong that even the people who run the place are hesitant to use the downvote feature, it seems unlikely that other curators will.
Intimidation and prior restraint
Not all people are ethical people. Therefore, it stands to reason that some percentage of enterprise posters will also be unethical. I do not know the people behind steemvoter and steemsports, so I cannot speak with certainty to their ethical fiber, but their recent actions give me pause.
An enterprise like this that is able to increase its marketshare by making changes to its tos, then bullying anyone into silence who voices an objection is dangerous.
@steemvoter recently had this to say to a user who questioned whether or not the money going to his company was a responsible use of the reward fund:
Well take it elsewhere. If not we will ask our community if we can use their votes to down vote the hell our of annoying whiners.
(note -- I am not entirely sure that their TOS does, in fact, require them to ask before using the votes they have been given access to to downvote their critics... i suppose if it did, they could always amend it though, and make not agreeing to the amendment opt-out)
Also here
the steemvoter account flags a user for downvoting his payout post, and makes sure to announce it. The purpose of this is clear -- to prevent others from also adjusting the payout downward by threatening reprisals.
After making these threats, he recently posted this:
We thus propose a security service where we defend the community from potential attackers, firstly by providing passive defence strategies and early warning systems that could be enabled in a user front-end like Steemvoter, with defensive comments posted at intervals, and increased as multiple auto-flags are detected to neutralise the attacker like we did.
There's a name for that. Its called a protection racket.
Thank you so much, we are glad you are like-minded on this, a flag police is what is needed and we are prepared to be just that, we are tired of it as well and like you, believe it will kill the community.
Now, he proposes to use his purchased votes to tell others how they are allowed to vote.
The user @walden in rocketchat, apparently a representative of @steemsports, has made similar threats. He monitors the steemitabuse channel and attacks people who are critical or unsupportive of SS's level of funding. In the following image, posted by noisy, he indiactes that he will use the SP that all this reward money has gotten him (as well as his completely unassailable reputation) to enact reprisals.
In a system where it is already quite difficult to adjust enterprise support downward, a force like that attempting exert influence on voters and perhaps even critics in the name of expanding their portion of the reward pool could be a dangerous actor.
So here's my pitch
The two main effects of the downvote taboo with regard to enterprise posts are:
- There is a hesitation to downvote over-rewarded enterprise posts that comes from an unwillingness to be the "first in" and thus being forced to bear the brunt of reprisals alone.
- There is also a hesitation that comes from the potential of being accused of downvoting because you are an asshole, jealous, have personal motivations, or for some other inappropriate reason.
So my pitch is--let me be the jelly asshole. If @walden wants to do a press release, let him do it about me. If someone wants to accuse you of being attacking them for personal reasons , tell them sigmajin attacked them, you're just on his trail.
No, i can't hide your downvote. And I can't promise that you will never suffer a reprisal. But i can say that i will use the trail to respond to reprisals with upvotes (this is the only thing i would ever consider upvoting with it, and only then to just above zero), and that i will also use my own accounts, including the 80K steem power I have in small accounts, to attempt to cancel out reprisals should they occur.
I have started a curation trail here the sole purpose of this trail is to serve as a check on the growth of enterprise-poster rewards beyond what is healthy for the system. Should it become necessary, the trail will also respond to help users being intimidated or attacked speaking critically about these enterprise concerns. This trail will use no more than 7 full power vote equivalents a day (so like 14 50% or 7 full power or whatever). If this is too much, i believe you can set your strength using the slider.
Later today, in the comments to this thread, i will release my specific criteria (no votes will be cast until 24 hours after the criteria are released), but in general, i will be concentrating on low content\no content posts that have a payout in the top 25. I do not ever intend to flag a post or comment below zero, and i do intend to give special consideration to new posters.
Can this make a difference?
I believe that it can if it gets even a moderate amount of support from medium/large dolphins, many of whom have expressed concern about these types of accounts.
I will be counteracting any downvotes by this account and trail. Good luck!!
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That is certainly your perogative. If you read my other posts, you will see that i believe people ought to be allowed vote however they wish.
three points though. Well, two points and a counter offer.
1.I enjoy irony. And because of this, i pray in my heart of hearts that the next big "institution" here on steemit is just a hodgpodge of conspiracy theory pizzagate stuff, so that i can watch to see if you counter my downvotes.
2.Readers of this post and @berniesanders response should note that he himself , if you take his votes and explanations of them at face value, does not appear to be ideologically opposed to downvoting subjectively bad or overpaid content. He does it himself, and there have been multiple high-profile instances where he has done just that (EDIT: previous sentence changed from 'he does it himself quite frequently' after @berniesanders reply below). Personally, i have to wonder what his objection is to a group collectively doing the same thing he does himself. (edit "quite regularly" removed, based on reply below)
So here's my counter offer (and no, i don't really expect you to take me up on it.... its just amusing to make it). Its your chance to expose me as the jackbooted thug we all know I am in my heart of hearts.
After I post my criteria for how this trail will be voting, just explain to everyone else which part of it is wrong or evil, then counter the wrong or evil parts. Or my use of the trail outside of the criteria i set.
To me at least (not that you have any reason to care what I think) it would make it look like a legitimate philosophical disagreement, rather than an attempt to nullify the opinions of smaller stakeholders just because you think they ought not to be voting them.
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I'd love to see data that shows I downvote "quite frequently". My guess is you wouldn't bother to actually figure that out because it would make you look ignorant.
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No, i don't mind looking ignorant. It happens to me all the time.
You are absolutely right. The cases where you do downvote are very high profile, because of your high sp. Because they are very high profile, they are more memorable. And because they are more memorable, they appear to happen more often.
Its the source of every superstition... we remember when something happens, but not when it doesn't.
I corrected the reply above.
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I will flag you everytime you downvote me. Leave my posts alone they do not violate the TOS.
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there is no TOS.
As far as I am concerned, any post that attempts to indimidate voters, including the one i flagged and your comment above, which i am also flagging, is abusive. The next time you attempt to extort a vote, or forebearance from voting from anyone, ill flag you with all my steem power.
You can vote how you like. it is certainly your right to flag me as an act of revenge. I would venture to say that it says a lot about how you see voting on steemit. Its really interesting that you can use the flag however you want, but there are rules about who can flag you.
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I'm tired of the B.S. games on this site. I bother no one and have tried to contribute ideas and put out quality content. But then I get flagged by Puritans because they don't like nudity or hassled and flagged over a post that is acceptable on IG and FB and people keep crying a woman in a bra should be NSFW.
And I'm not extorting anything... I'm not asking for anything but to be left alone. Upvotes and downvotes are publicly view able. I'm the one being flag attacked on post most users like. I'm only taking public info and letting people know who is trying to censor my work which is not ethical for them to try to do that. When my post are of quality even if you don't like content.
And I'm done playing nice guy and ignoring it and not retaliating which is what I used to do.
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Upvoted for visibility; not endorsement
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We could all see it; but you know that.
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Upvoted for better visibility and discussion.
IMHO: ( (Upvote and Let Upvote) > (Flags) )
From the whitepaper:
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I would actually go even farther than the white paper in that regard and posit that, except for the theoretical empty post, there is really no such thing as abuse per se.
That said, that much -- making sure that the abuse doesn't become so rampant as to undermine the inentive to do real work, is necessary. IMO, that cannot be accomplished with out downvoting. Because it is in the nature of enterprises like these that they will become as rampant as they are permitted to become.
Steemvoter is a great example of this (and i suspect you might be the person that responded to me in that thread). First they were free. Then they wanted a vote every day. Then they wanted to run a protection service that allows them to cast a second vote every day. Then they wanted to ask their users to let them downvote people who criticise them.
The same was true of steem sports. They had a post that got paid at the top of trending every day, and everyone was cool with it,. Then it was 2 posts. Then it was 4. Then it was 4 and a steemgames post.
At some point, someone or some group of people has to step in and say "this is too much"... because for the most part, enterprises will not do this themselves.
It wouldn't be possible, or desirable, to wipe out K. brevis completely either... just to prevent its unconstrained growth so that it didnot become rampant.
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I didn't see this until a couple of hours ago, had a busy day yesterday and after posting fell asleep within minutes, then I checked your page and resteemed for the same reason as @gtg, once again it was only at a buck or so...the coincidence of it shooting up after I resteem is pretty funny. I still have to go through it and check out your curation trail, then talk to beanz and klye and everyone else who was gung ho the other day. Hopefully it's not the jump up and down until a solution is proposed than run and hide syndrome I've seen so often in the past. I guess we'll see.
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wow did that seriously happen again.... lol...
I really don't care very much about the money, I am way more concerned with having good discussion (and in that sense i am very happy with the way the whole series turned out).
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I just registered at streemian...you're hovo, right?
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yep... im going to put up specifics about what im going to be voitng on tonight sometime.
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Do you also have a curation trail for upvoting? Ha, it occurs to me that while I do a great deal of manual upvoting it might not compete with a trail and I would not want my downvotes to be more prominent. It goes against my nature as it is, but I trust you and I see the need for it, a checks and balances necessity for the success of steemit. I'm waiting to hear from @klye who just dropped his current autovoting 'provider' and is looking into steemtrail. I like the way he goes about it, checking in on the people he votes for on a consistent basis...plus he had the good sense to add myself and @therealpaul LOL.
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I personally don't have the chance to vote on enough stuff to make it worth it to follow me.
If i had to reccomend someone on streemian, it would be @anyx
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Nesting is a serious pain in the ass sometimes :) Thanks, I'll look into it :)
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I intend to be part of your curation trail, since hovo popped up when I went through all of the steps after clicking on your link I'm assuming that's you, but I'm not jumping on until you confirm that, lol. Right now my votes don't count for a whole lot, but that might change in the near future. My husband is seriously considering transferring a good portion of his bit coins into steem for my account :)
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yeah, i should have specified. I am using a special account because this is going to be not part of my regular voting (though ill be following too)
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That would be wonderful!! We could really use more positive influencers like you. Bad actors will remain until the good actors actively outweigh them.
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Sounds good.
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The conclusion of that section on the white paper is that crab mentality is beneficial to preventing abuse.
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I appreciate your analysis. Resteemed.
Oh and also the effort to nullify improper flagging. I mentioned a council to review and revoke flagging to Dan in one comment, and he said he considered it with a similar witness voting aspect to assign members that can change. I applaud you efforts, and let me know if you need any help, I do everything manually but I will evaluate and judge the situation. Too bad the PMs aren't on steemit yet... hehe
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I'm skeptical about this being workable/desirable. Im not sure if you caught "part ii" but i think that a system where we decide as a community that revenge flagging isn't acceptable (and upvote/cancel out if it happens) and vote accordingly is a better solution, and one that resonates with the notion of crowdsourced governance.
I am actually working on releasing a steemit PM system some time soon.... ive been diddling with it for weeks, and kind of waiting for a tut on how to put a steemconnect posting box up. Because otherwise i have to have people cut and paste.
I appreciate the offer of help, as well as the resteem.
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I agree, but getting to that point of consensus now, is not very doable. That's why the PM feature will greatly aid in networking to do things as they happen, which arriving at a consensus takes longer over time where the community can agree. Something in between that, an individual like yourself, or others joining or banding together to do similarly or independently, is similar to an "organic" "council" that would revoke excessively damaging flagging.
Waiting for a tutorial for what?
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You make a good point about it being an easier way to get consensus.
Between your tutorial on adding the login and the busy.org tutorial on adding the vote button, I can get everything but posting working.
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So you have a text area, but you can't get the data sent to the blockchain, basically?
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exactly... ive tried to figure out how to make the button, but have yet to be able to get it to work
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It seems as though i have attracted some negative attention. Such is life... gotta wonder if i hit close to home.... maybe i should have cut and pasted the definition of an open ended straight draw.
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somewhat hilariously, the guy upvoted me first, then changed them all to downvotes... ns what the purpose of that was.
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The first upvote was an accident. Upvoting is my default. The downvote was intentional.
The reason for the downvote is that your posts seem to be a rally cry for downvoters to band together and take up downvoting crusades to police the system. For example, you want to police what you call "pornography".
Getting away from police and centralized or organized control is why many of us adopted crypto long before steem. Your idea is to bring jackboot ideology to an otherwise free market, even if you couch it in long winded rationale.
Also, I despise sex moralizers of all varieties. Go to a sex therapist and work through your problems. Don't take it out on others.
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This is a gross mischaracterization of my postition. I would challenge you to find anything in this post, or in my posting or voting history that would indicate that I want to police pornography. I do believe that pornography ought not be visible on the public feeds, but for reasons entirely unrelated to this post.
Yes, i did downvote @nsapart 's post and comment. My reason, clearly specified, might not be one that you agree with, but it is certainly valid and has nothing to do with my sexual morality.
I'm sure that, me being a jackbooted thug and all, you probably think that this was just a pretext to try to impose my sexual morality on others. However, the reality is that im not a jackbooted thug. In fact, because i felt ambivalent about my votes later on, i upvoted two other posts by the same author that did not feature calls to arms. I did so with nearly twice the SP i used to downvote the post i downvoted.
I own parts (albiet small parts) of two different "entertainment" businesses here in vegas. Your fantasy of me as the preacher from the movie Footloose is just that -- a fantasy.
more on jackboots in a minute. I just got up and i need a second for the adderall to kick in.
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Hi @steemed! I am right now entirely confused I have to say. I've been following the debate since an outcry was made via posts by members last week where it seemed that people were upset about low quality posts consistently making the top trending spots. I've been reading everything that had to do with this including @sigmajin's posts and commentary, and he was kind enough to explain many things to me as I am extremely right-brained and find it difficult to comprehend anything involving numbers. I could be wrong here, but I did not take him to be in favor of censorship, that would be in complete opposition to my own beliefs as I am a strong supporter of freedom of speech and expression. I took it upon myself to look through his voting habits and he has upvoted many posts that would suggest he was in agreement with me on this, including posts by the very person in this thread that seems to have caused this misunderstanding. Perhaps if you were to see all of the comments that led to him writing these posts as a possible solution than you might change your view? From what I know of him he believes strongly in posts that bring value to the platform, and not just based on personal opinion and his personal preferences and tastes, but rather he supports original work in general, anyone bringing forth unique creativity in any form. I would really hope to see more dialogue between the two of you because between all that went on last week and now this, I'm feeling a bit disheartened. Particularly as I've become a crusading cheerleader for steemit since I landed here, bragging about how amazing the people are, how much it promotes critical thinking and individuality.
No system is perfect of course, and I also thought it was great how @sigmajin and @dwinblood had come from two completely different standpoints and yet they were able to talk with one another about the issues in a very respectful and intelligent manner. I appreciate your concerns, I would be upset about the idea of policing in this platform myself, in a way that would stifle the ability of people to create, invent, and dream big (I chose my name based on this very idea :) but from speaking to him many times in the past weeks I don't believe that was or is his intention. Thank you for your time in reading this :)
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I appreciate the support, but i suspect youre wasting your breath. This is not the first time @steemed\itsascam and their army of badgers has downvoted me and im sure it will not be the last. I don't take it personally, but i also don't think it had anything to do with pornography (which wasn't even mentioned or alluded to in the post).
If you look at some of the authors that SD has supported in the past, i think it will be pretty clear where I stand with respect to them, and why their patron stands where he does with respect to this post.
I don't believe that either one of us is provably, objectively right or wrong. But it is a fundamental difference of opinion that, IMO, is probably irreconcilable.
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Hmmm... This could be interesting. I'll be interested to see what happens. I am all for trying new things and experimenting. Resteemed.
EDIT: You know I don't agree with you on some aspects of the "flag", but what you are talking about here is not simply "It's great, leave it like it is". You are actively trying things to seem if it can help the platform. I am all for this kind of activity. I also believe you are an intelligent enough guy that if it doesn't work out you'll reassess and come up with something else to try. I can support that.
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As a side note... from a historical perspective when I first read your title I wondered how you were going to tie in the anti-communist movement to your article. :)
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haha yeah i actually realized it had the double meaning after i wrote it
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Also I don't believe I have all the answers. When you are TRYING something new to address potential issues, you'll find I will be supportive. We differ in some areas in terms of voting, but overall I believe we both want to see this platform grow, and it seems that in some areas of voting our views align. I am also willing to change my views. I hope your efforts bear positive fruit.
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Probably more than you think.
As i said when i drafted you into part ii, one of the reasons i used your argument as an example is because i do believe it is well thought out and well intentioned.
Oh, which reminds me i actually thought of a way to remove downvotes from curation while i was walking my dog this morning.
right now, you vote up or down, and assign rshares and vshares=rshare^2
instead of that you could vote a "rating system"... i don't know, say 1-5 stars and have
or a scale of 1-10 and have the rating be
Of course, this would largely be an accounting measure... a 1 star or a rating of 1 would still be a down vote, in effect, but it would more accurately reflect the subjective nature of the vote. ANd it would be, perhaps, less offensive than a flag or a downvote.
It would also give you a little more fine control over your voting, especially the 1-10 scale.
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I was thinking I might like that better as well as I was describing how online stores tend to rate things in stars 0 to 5 stars, 0 to 5 eggs.
It I think gives a better overall impression of perceived value than ALL IN or OUT.
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The interesting thing about that system (though i think i may have muffed the numbers) is that you have an option the current system lacks.
So if a post has a $100 potential payout, a 3 star rating could add to the weight of the average, making it harder to change up or down. .. which is to say, you could vote to say "i think the current payout is appropriate and should not be adjusted either way"
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I'll start out saying I'm in favor of subjective downvoting. That said, I don't think you made your case very well. Nearly all if not all the cases of enterprises (defined broadly) that have existed have reached limits and in some cases ended altogether, without much if any role of downvotes. There is no unconstrained growth. As I explained elsewhere "buying votes" does not work for something like steemsports or steemvoter where returns are equal and stakes/votes are unequal. There is no unconstrained growth there either.
So overall this is a weak argument even if I agree broadly with your conclusion for different reasons.
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This post has been ranked within the top 80 most undervalued posts in the first half of Jan 04. We estimate that this post is undervalued by $4.65 as compared to a scenario in which every voter had an equal say.
See the full rankings and details in The Daily Tribune: Jan 04 - Part I. You can also read about some of our methodology, data analysis and technical details in our initial post.
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It's very beautiful post!
Great job dear @sigmajin :)
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I applaud your project, and am curious to see how this unfolds.
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It's not wasted breath, it's for anyone who reads this post in the future. It's always better to have someone defending your position besides yourself. Of the many arguments against your case that could be made, that one does not stand, but it is effective in garnering outrage from those who do not understand what it is you're trying to do. My comment was designed, quite simply, to counteract that.
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