Recently I found myself caught up in a discussion about the disappearance of Downs Syndrome in Iceland. It's one of those Facebook threads you make a single comment on, expecting it to end there, only for your notifications to blow up a moment later and embroil you in argument until 4am.
The gist is that a test, amniocentesis, exists which can determine whether a developing fetus has downs syndrome. Nearly 100% of pregnant women in Iceland pay to have the test performed, and nearly 100% of those with a positive result choose to abort the fetus.
Crucially, this means it was entirely voluntary. The predictable accusations of eugenics miss their mark, because what made eugenics so terrible was not the goal of improving humanity (how could that be terrible in itself?) but the fact that it was implemented by government force.
It's also still a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. If she does not have the freedom to control her own bodily processes, she does not have ownership of herself. From a legal standpoint that ends the debate. Women are free to terminate their own pregnancies at will. What's not yet settled is the moral debate.
Does the fact that these abortions were informed by a medical test for Downs syndrome alter the moral calculus at all? Is it fine if there is no test, but becomes wrong if there is? Arguments that the initial test isn't always accurate lie by omission: The second stage of the test is 100% accurate or vanishingly close.
Even if it weren't, that would be an argument for improving the test, not disallowing it. It may help at this point to explore the worldview of the people who vehemently oppose abortion for any reason at all, often including rape.
Whereas the view of neurologists, biologists and so on is that we are born with nothing more than instinct, and become who we are as adults by accumulating life experiences, supernaturalists like Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Jews, Jehova's Witnesses and so on believe in the "pre-born".
That is to say, they believe you have always been who you are now, even before you were born. That you have no memory of waiting around in Heaven but that's where you were prior to your own birth, and where you return to when you die.
This perspective isn't universal to all denominations but some version of this idea is the most common basis for opposition to abortion, and why such people equate it to the murder of a fully developed person.
However, there's another way to look at it. Each of us is the result of genetic recombination. Some of our father's DNA and some of our mother's, combined in a particular way. Combined in different ways, it would result in people similar to you in many ways but not identical, like siblings.
There are uncountable possible combinations of those two genomes. A finite, but very large number. All of those combinations could have been the 'you' that was actually born. Would it have been a tragedy if possible combination #45,021,345,973 was born instead of possible combination # 22,810,592,780 (you)?
Would that mean you were murdered? No, because you would never have existed. the specific combination of your father and mother's genomes which makes you physiologically who you are (nature(, and the series of life experiences which molded your personality (nurture) would have never happened. A person was not murdered, rather a potential person was prevented.
The number of potential people who could be born is, again, uncountably high. Is every potential person that is not conceived and brought to term therefore murdered? Humans are incredibly fertile compared to other mammals, able to mate in any season and have as many as eight offspring in a single pregnancy. (Though 15 fetuses in one womb was reported, they were not carried to term as there simply wasn't room.)
Every woman who isn't barren therefore has the potential to bring a large number of potential people into the world. The Duggars are a good example of what this looks like in practice. If a woman is physically able to birth twenty new human beings, but chooses to birth only one, has she murdered the other nineteen?
Women are born with two million eggs, some of which are flushed out of the body each month if none were fertilized. Women's bodies sometimes miscarry, in effect a natural abortion. Who is to blame there? The woman? God? Does God sometimes perform abortions? Are violent storms the work of God, but not miscarriages?
So, it should be clear that it is nonsense that women are morally obligated to turn every potential human their body could create into an actual human. It isn't necessary or a good idea for every possible person to be born, for some pretty obvious common sense reasons.
The question then becomes, on what basis does the mother decide whether the potential person growing in her womb should be born? Legally, that's her business and nobody elses.
For the sake of the larger moral thought experiment however, let's say that there's one universe where a given mother chooses to carry to term a fetus which tested positive for Downs syndrome.
In another universe, she terminated that pregnancy and had a child without Downs syndrome. Now, let's suppose at the age of ten, both children meet. Would the child without Downs syndrome regard the child afflicted with it as an improvement? Would they scold their mother for not having that child instead?
It is not only the life of the fetus which factors into this equation, but also the lives of the healthy children who might've been born instead. What answer should we give them as to why we chose not to bring them into the world? Did we believe it would be better for them to be disabled?
If you have the choice between having a disabled child or a healthy one, why would you not choose the healthy one? Cruelty? Desire to see your child struggle through life because you didn't do one simple thing to ensure he/she would have the best chance at success you could give him/her?
Is there some reason we need more mentally disabled people? In a country with universal healthcare, is it wise to deliberately create people who will likely never be able to pay into it? Homelessness in Iceland is a death sentence for obvious reasons. Can they afford to over-burden their social safety net with lifelong dependents?
On a global scale, with 7.5 billion humans and climbing, can we afford to leave it to chance whether each new human brought into the world will be able to support itself?
Can we afford to choose a child with very low intelligence over a potential genius, when each genius brought into the world has the potential to invent new technologies which enable us to support the basic needs of more and more human lives?
We need all the geniuses we can get these days, and can ill afford to instead move in the opposite direction. This unsettles some, understandably, given the historical crimes of eugenics. But again, the entire problem with eugenics was that it was compulsory. Government control over human reproduction begets atrocities.
That problem disappears when the decision is made by each individual mother, the only one who ought to be able to make such a decision in the first place. Is there anyone reading this who isn't highly selective about who they want to have children with? Isn't that a form of simple eugenics practiced by everybody?
Provided the right to choose remains in the hands of women, some level of corrective, intelligent influence on human evolution can be practiced in a manner consistent with voluntarism. We can reap most of the benefits without any of the dangers or drawbacks, ensuring that the next generation is gifted the best chance at success we can possibly give them.
Anything less would be to favor disability over health, and to knowingly saddle children with severe health problems and barriers to success in life that were never necessary to burden them with. We have a choice, and choices unavoidably carry moral weight.
There is a moral cost to terminating a pregnancy which I hope no reasonable person denies. But there is a steeper moral cost by far to deliberately creating a severely disabled child instead of a healthy one.
I agree women should have the choice. If I were pregnant and I knew I'd have a child who would struggle, I would consider any medical treatment and/or Abortion if It was something I knew would cause a huge burden on my life, And the lives of others. I agree that these days we need all the geniuses we can get, And we need to be careful. We have so many people on this planet. We can only support so many.
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I agree and have struggled with how harsh this view sounds, as I am sure you have. But it becomes clear that it's the best of a lot of bad options when one considers what the alternative future looks like, and weighs the collective suffering of all those people against the moral cost of a comparatively tiny number of abortions in the present.
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Respect your awareness,
Everyone knows about this
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I like Ben Shapiro's position on the subject. I agree with women (maybe eventually men) having the choice to decide if they want an abortion (given that a medical team agrees to it)
Let's just call it killing human beings (as they were alive, they were human and were killed). Even a spontaneous abortion of a morula is an accidental death of a human being. I don't like euphemisms.
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I'm in the US, my wife and I decided to forego the test, so I was asking myself these same questions in a very real way 2 and a half years ago.
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May I ask how it turned out?
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The child is developmentally challenged. My oldest is autistic and a genius. The youngest hasn't displayed any talents but he's happy.
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Yes, if it's voluntary, there's nothing to bitch about.
There are countries (France comes to mind) whose governments use heavy-handed convincing tactics to encourage women to abort if the fetus has Down Syndrome. (And by the way, it's Down, not Downs.) I see this as morally wrong. But there are other countries where tests are not readily available, and children with Down Syndrome are commonly seen as a curse, so the affected populations end up in orphanages. This is also morally problematic.
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We agree that this is where it stops being ethical. Human reproduction is a sufficiently personal and intimate aspect of life that if the government controls it, then citizens do not even have the most basic level of freedom.
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@alexbeyman,
Actually, we can't say this is good or this is bad! Coz, social impacts on those babies are really bad in my country! There is not place to look after them, yeah we are in a developing country! Sometimes that's the problem! Anyway it hurts future of parents, their stress level and when they die who cares that baby? That's the biggest problem so far :/
Anyway father and mother should be need to decide whether giving life or not! Government has no rights to decide that! Respect your viewpoint!
Really good article my dear friend! Thanks for sharing with us!
Cheers~
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Learned something today!
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Great article! I agree with you, people should do what they want based on the available information!
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Honestly a life is a life but the parent or parents should have the choice of what they want to do with their baby . If they find that they have some type of problem , it's harder to raise them and it's understandable, some people can not take on that responsibility.
That doesn't mean you should abort disabled born children , it's wrong in a way as well , every life counts . Those special kids are wonders from God , they were made that way for a reason
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The reason was because something went wrong during gestation. It is not part of some larger cosmic plan to mentally hobble children. You might benefit from reading this article.
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It's a part of life , people have different beliefs on matters and the way they should be handled
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Nice post 👍 @alexbeyman
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Provoking to say the least. I first ask myself. Is downs syndrome a handicap? From what i see they are some of the sweetest most compassionate people around.
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This is a very complex situation.
Me personally.. i think god has given us technology.. and it's on us to use it wisely.
Living out a life with down syndrome or some other debilitating illness wouldn't be very nice.. not just for that person but for the whole family.
I suppose it all comes down to whether you believe the soul is in the body from conception.
Me personally.. i feel the soul could simply go into another body if the fetus is destroyed. The soul is energy.. and energy can't be destroyed only dissipated.
Perhaps science can one day prove this.. and we could finally know the true and ethical answer to this question..
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Surely it's also solved if it turns out souls don't exist. Because then, there are no "pre-born" persons, and we only begin to exist as distinct individuals after we are born and accumulate life experiences that shape who we become.
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Ini adaalah artikel yang sangat luar biasa.
Semoga anda dapat meningkat kan nya kembali.
IAM STEEMIAN INDONESIAN
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buen post eres un genio..
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Are you talking about preincarnation here? Not all of the Christian sects believe this, although I love the idea after reading Plato.
Doh! You answered my qualm.
No room in the womb. Sound is getting stuck in my head.
I think the problem is that you are selecting against a specific trait, even if it is one that we would term deficient. What about doing the same for Autism or even something like diabetes? Both of which would create life-long complications for the child.
I'm not saying that the mothers shouldn't terminate if that is what they want, but the reason that they are terminating should closely be examined to determine the morality. It seems more like selecting certain types of consciousness as acceptable/unacceptable which is problematic to me.
It would be worth hearing from people with Downs about the quality of their life to further the discussion.
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As an autistic person, if I could trade my life for a world without autism I'd consider that a small price to pay. My life is not more important than the happiness of future generations.
This is a good point. How can we evaluate which types of consciousness are needed? After all we live in a world where the technology exists to support a wide variety of neurodivergent subpopulations. However, that technology exists because of conventionally intelligent people. They are what makes the industrialized, first world conditions which support DS individuals possible.
In light of that fact it would seem wise to ensure that there are always conventionally intelligent people around to keep that support infrastructure working, and to improve it over time. We cannot yet produce people with unusually high intelligence at will, but we can maximize the odds of their birth by maintaining a large neurotypical majority from which such individuals may arise.
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"Women are born with two million eggs, some of which are flushed out of the body each month if none were fertilized. Women's bodies sometimes miscarry, in effect a natural abortion. Who is to blame there? The woman? God? Does God sometimes perform abortions? Are violent storms the work of God, but not miscarriages?
So, it should be clear that it is nonsense that women are morally obligated to turn every potential human their body could create into an actual human. It isn't necessary or a good idea for every possible person to be born, for some pretty obvious common sense reasons."
Asking the above questions, and then jumping to the following conclusions seems a bit hasty. You make some pretty huge theological generalizations about religion and God in general. Perhaps spend some more time studying the various religions.
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That does not seem like a profitable pursuit tbh.
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A woman (with the man's input if she chooses) has the right to have or abort any child she chooses. I support a woman's total right to choose. It doesn't matter if the baby has Down Syndrome or if the baby is 100% healthy; if the mother doesn't want it for whatever reason, so be it.
I do think that it's totally fine to have a baby with Down Syndrome. Having interacted with others who have mental, physical, learning, etc. disabilities, I think differently about quality of life. While a person with Down Syndrome may not have the life you would desire, I'm sure that there are plenty of people with Down Syndrome who enjoy the life that they are afforded.
Finally, double check the fact about women releasing trillions of eggs each month. It's not accurate. Unless you were using sarcasm in which case, I missed it.
Thanks for an interesting read and I'm hoping for a great discussion!
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Perhaps, but would they enjoy life less if they were healthy? Wouldn't they, in fact, enjoy it more?
Caught that before you posted. As a man I never received the uterus owner's manual I assume you did. :p
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I don't see how it's possible to make such a value judgment for another individual. Also, "enjoyment" might not be every individual's be-all-and-end-all. But having spent time with several people who have Down Syndrome, I can say with confidence that those I have met seem to enjoy life more fully than most "healthy" people I know.
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I can believe that. A great deal of human misery comes from cognizence of mortality, of how industrialized society dehumanizes and isolates us, etc.
However the material abundance created by industrialized society is also what makes it possible to support large subpopulations of neurodivergent people who are unable to perpetuate or improve the infrastructure they depend upon.
It would seem like a good idea, then, to ensure that the majority of the population remains cognitively capable of understanding and maintaining the infrastructure which makes a first world standard of living possible.
If ever nine out of ten people were to be seriously mentally handicapped, would everything be fine? Would that be a bright future? Would the systems of support that DS individuals rely upon continue to exist, or break down over time?
Of course since DS isn't hereditary that's an impossible outcome, but the point is to establish that there's such a thing as too many mentally handicapped people for society to flourish. If we agree on that, then we disagree only on what the precise number is.
Please don't imagine that I can't put myself in the shoes of someone who loves a DS family member. I've heard from many mothers of DS children that the joy they bring to their lives is priceless. But do children without DS not bring joy to their mothers' lives? Is it not in every way an improvement, and in no way a loss if the child is born without DS?
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Again, you are attempting to make impossible value judgments about other people's lives. This is literally the same reasoning governments have used to support their eugenics programs. But it is impossible to know the answer. You don't have enough information from an outside perspective, and you can never have an inside perspective into another individual's life, so you will never have enough information to make such a value judgment for anyone but yourself.
Your thoughts on how a larger disabled population can affect society at large are a value judgment I think can reasonably be made--of course, you won't necessarily be correct, but it is possible to make informed opinions about it, at least. I also appreciate that you are against the application of force to achieve a lower ratio of disabled-to-non-disabled people. However, I think that you might consider dropping the portion of your argument that has to do with presuming what would be best for individual Down Syndrome patients, their families, and hypothetical healthy replacement children. Because you are getting into extremely murky territory here.
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Perhaps. It was really just for the sake of discussion, but I appreciate that for many families it is not some purely academic matter.
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Hahhaaha at uterus owner's manual! I didn't receive an owner's manual. It's a learn as you go type of thing!
People with Down Syndrome would likely enjoy a more ordinary human experience because the world caters to the majority, the average. It's difficult to be an outlier, especially when society doesn't see a benefit in your existence.
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I can not agree with this one. Not from personal experience anyway. Maybe the situation is different elsewhere. I finished my schooling, got my diploma ... I am 34 years old ... no steady job and got nothing to show for. Oh dont get me wrong, I'm doing fine and this is not whining in any way. But here is the thing....What I have i built on my own, with the sweat on my back and calluses on my hands and brains. Does the world look at me and think oh lets give her more? Beeing capable means you have to fend on your own. U get pushed in that pool with a smirk and smile: swim or drown. But there is the other side. People who cant swim.
Now to clarify before someone thinks im ranting. I am not. I work with special needs. They bring me joy, they motivate me and i find every day a new chalange always looking for solutions and how I could do/give/make more. So this is my personal experience: they are mostly happy. They are striped of social norms, usually focused only on themselves and their own pleasure. Their mental and emotional age is much lower, meaning they look on the world much differently and not as they are different in anyway. Most even think of themselves as beeing better. When they look themselves in the mirror, they dont see themselves with predjustice and criticism as we do. They don't see themselves as an outlier. To make that valid they would first have to grasp the concept of "the world and its norms".
The world doesnt cater to me..."a capable healthy woman". But it caters to them. Here they get whole support from the system and sociality. I am always happy when one finishes our program and gets a job. Me? I have a job...for this year. Next year? I do not know.
Lets face it....i will never be a ballerina. I am to old, have to much meat on my bones and so much grace as a tractor. But I know 2 girls with down syndrom who are. They are not as slender, as gracefull or even young as the rest of balerinas. But they can be one.
Just saying....
I guess it depends where you live.
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I appreciate your perspective and your work with those who have special needs.
I resonate with your argument on how people with Down Syndrome view themselves and the world, although I don't believe that they don't realize their differences. Instead, they work within their differences to do what they can to live their dreams and even be ballerinas if they have the means to do so.
You will always have an advantage over a person with Down Syndrome. Sure, people with Down Syndrome can receive assistance and care (catering) for their well-being, but the world isn't designed for them to thrive and some places - like Iceland - are eliminating these types of people totally.
Comparing the fact that you can't be a ballerina or that you're unemployed to people with Down Syndrome who are employed and ballerinas to show that the world caters to them is a reach. Your options for work and leisure are far more expansive than anything they could ever hope for. Of course, you can be a ballerina. It only takes paying someone to teach you. And you have not only the ability to find work, but the option to be an entreprenuer, create income on Steemit, etc.. The comparison to what opportuities they are afforded to those that you are afforded falls flat.
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That's a thought provoking perspective, which is what I look for and value the most on this site. You've got yourself a new follower.
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Abortion is horrible, but too many people is catastrophic for the environment. That's why I always put my retarded babies in the recycle bin.
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Dude... lol. WTF.
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@alexbeyman - Sire, this is unethical thing. Parents need to decide keep their baby or not. Your argument is 100% correct Sire. Love your post Sire. Therefore, I wish to resteem this post Sire.
+W+ [ReSteemed & UpVoted]
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amigo #resteemia at your service
Government should implement law like: if 'Downs Syndrome or Abnormal', then parents can decided whether proceed or abortion. nice discussion & honor your view @alexbeyman
ReSteemia
'UpVote ReSteem Comment'
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I didn't realize that was the case in Iceland. As sad as it is I feel like it makes sense in a lot of ways.
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I think the one side of the conversation that hasn't been mentioned is the social benefits that a person with Downs Syndrome brings to a group. They're very nice and loving and can really bring people together. The presence of a child with Downs Syndrome in a school class can really serve to elevate the level of compassion in the group.
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Who deliberately creates disabled children?
That's nonsense.
Rather, people have conjugal relations and a child results... if the child is disabled, that doesn't mean it's OK to kill her. Quite the opposite. Abortion is murder, and Iceland is guilty.
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Youe words are very interesting ans inapiring as well as informative thank you
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thanks for post,
If you did not say, I would never know this news.
I think it's a tragic tragedy
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