❌ Anarchy Exposed: response to @larkenrose 's 'Political Mythology 101 (Part One)'

in anarchism •  8 years ago 

As I specified, this series will be more about engaging with unique Anarchic posts, and exposing flaws - rather than a formal critique of specific Anarchic ideologies (which would not be trivial, given the plethora of Anarchic schools of thought and certain definitional concerns)

Note: I refuse to consider morality, because  there can be no debate while a party can make appeals to arbitrary moral systems. In other words, to avoid sophistry and unnecessary lack of clarity. Not because I can't engage with your Anarchic arguments.

Myth #1: “Representative Government”
Disproof: Someone who actually represents you—who acts on your behalf—would only have the right to do things which you have the right to do yourself. Those in "government" pretend to have the right to do countless things that you yourself have no right to do, while (bizarrely) claiming that you gave them that right. Also, one who actually represented you obviously would not have the right to boss you around and demand money from you under threat of caging you if you disobey or resist—a right those in power claim to have.

The argument he appears to be making here is that certain actions from those in government are legitimized, where equivalent actions from civilians would be denigrated.

In a standard representative government, delegates are chosen to make decisions in the interests of the groups they're representing. The reason why humans elect to appoint delegates is to transfer the burden of societal organization to a set of trusted individuals. Necessarily, they also endow their delegates with wherewithal to enforce societal organization (for example legal exemption).

Now, everyone hasn't been appointed to represent certain groups, so would it make sense for everyone to have that same wherewithal to enforce societal organization?

Would this not defeat the purpose of representative government?

The right to boss you is just part of the wherewithal to enforce societal organization.

Myth #2: “Consent of the Governed”
Disproof: To “consent” means to voluntarily agree to something. To “govern” means to coercively control. The two are mutually exclusive. The term “consent of the governed” therefore makes no more sense than “voluntary slave.” Additionally, someone else obviously cannot “consent” on your behalf for you to be enslaved. If you didn’t individually, specifically and freely agree to something yourself, that is not consent.

Not necessarily mutually exclusive. People can voluntarily elect for an objective authoritative figure to enforce with coercion certain principles.

I agree, that some individuals may not have consented. But a sufficient group (generally a majority) did.

So, in general, Consent of the Governed is indeed appropriate.

Myth #3: “Voting Constitutes Consent”
Disproof: Being given the choice of which individual or gang will forcibly extort and dominate you (with "none of the above" not being an option) does not mean that you are free, and does not mean that you agreed to be robbed and controlled.

That make absolutely zero sense, unless this "gang" is forcing you to vote. 

You may disagree with an established legal system and its implications, and you are free to migrate a country with one that you find more suitable.

No human society has existed, nor will it ever exist without some enforced principles, at least you can pick better enforcers or that which is to be enforced.

It's not about being free, it's about aligning political direction more closely with your interests.

 

Myth #4: “We Gave Them Their Power”
Disproof: There is no ritual or document through which any number of people can delegate to others rights that none of them had to begin with. For example, ten people who have no right to commit murder cannot give to someone else the right to commit murder. Therefore, if those in power have rights that you don’t, they obviously didn’t get such rights from you

I've already explained why this is wrong in Myth 1.

 

Myth #5: “Democracy is Freedom”
Disproof: Gang rape is democracy in action—a majority forcing its will on a minority. Even if political elections actually represented the will of the majority (which they don’t), democracy would be inherently violent, immoral and illegitimate. Political voting is always about a majority forcing its will on a minority. Even if theoretically that left the majority in freedom (which it never actually does), obviously the minority would not be free.

This is true. But it's completely trivial because there is no system under which this would not be true.

If not a majority, then a sufficiently influential minority.

 

Myth #6: “Constitutional Republics are Good”
Disproof: The Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, and the Weimar Republic (which gave rise to Nazi Germany) are/were all democratically-elected constitutional republics, each with its own version of a “bill of rights.” (The constitutions of all of them are easy to find online.) Democratically-elected constitutional republics have been the most destructive, murderous institutions in the history of the world.

This is way too reductionist. You're not seriously the reducing the result of complex political interactions  to the nature of their political system.

 If you could explain in theory why  “Constitutional Republics are Good” that would fortify your argument.

 

Myth #7: “Servant Government”
Disproof: If there is a group of people that tells you what to do, demands money from you, and hurts you if you do not comply—and that is always what "government" is and does—then it is not your servant; it is your master.

It is your servant if it is appointed by virtue of collective vote.

Government is an assembly of people, just like you and I.

Accordingly, they are appointed by you and I.

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no u

:)

@satire The Freemasons reserve the bottom of the checkerboard floor for those who have not begun and you sir are right on the square. The checkerboard is black(wrong) & white (right) because that is the absolute rock bottom of consciousness , It represents someone that doesn't know right from wrong.

You put your logic before your grammar the second you removed morals from any discussion (moral relativism). I know a few paragraphs of logic & reason can't compete with years of indoctrination you have endured, so i know you will not change your mind and i will not waste mine by talking to you anymore.





BTW I meant "If you could explain in theory why constitutional republics are bad".

Your inability to understand the purpose of what the government is becoming and what it was intended to be with the declaration of independence is due to your zealotry of government worship. You act as if the government is not abusing their power, from police to president, but the many police and even presidential candidates, are abusing power they don't even have. Police are acting like judge, jury and executioner. Hillary and Trump want to parade around like they are already rulers of a nation, just not a free nation. Your problem is that you accept the rules of the intentions of a democratic society (even though it's supposed to be a uncoercive, constitutional republic), you are accepting majority rule. You think that if 51% say something should be changed or put into effect, than it should be so. You fail to see that less than 30% of the legal population votes on a regular basis, and we get to vote on less than 10% of the actual laws that are placed over us. The reason why constitutional republics are not good, even they sound great on paper, is because they can easily turn very quickly into a corporatist oligarchy through an incompetent populace being swindled by con artist politicians wording laws a certain way, such that they may be vague enough to work in any level of corruption until the people realize what's going on, but by then it may be too late. This country isn't even a democratic society anymore. The United States of America has been a corporatist oligarchy since 1913 (but even before that when Alexander Hamilton was the first treasurer under Washington, he set up a central banking system with corporate subsidy distribution). Larken is trying to put that into plain english for you and anyone else who doesn't understand that, but religious zealotry is one that even the wisest of scholarly debates could not alter. You've been brainwashed, and it is truly unfortunate. When you feel the urge to say we should leave this "free" country because we don't like how "free" it is anymore, maybe you should read the declaration of independence very clearly and understand why this country was created, as well as compare the issues of what King George III did to anger the founders to move to secede. Knowledge is power, but blind devotion to corrupt political practice, such that you are showing to have, shows no individual comprehension at all.

Firstly, I want to thank you for your response. It was well thought out and honest.
Secondly, I agree. But the point I'm making is that statism doesn't have to be that way, not in theory.
Delegative electoral systems just need to be refined.
In another debate with a steemer I adovated a delegative technocratic democracy.

Great post!

Thanks! I appreciate it!

I dunno. Interesting to read. Myth 5 -- This is true. But it's completely trivial because there is no system under which this would not be true. -- I think that's the point of anarchism, right? It's hard to support a system that enables this, isn't it?

In this case anarchism (generally defined), would offer on value whatsoever.
As long as there are humans with unequal influence, or with aligned interests, someone's freedom will be restricted.

Writing a response as we speak.

Do you or do you not believe an arbitrary right and wrong exists?

I do not believe an arbitrary right and wrong exists.

Ok, good. We're in agreement.

Now, do you believe an absolute right and wrong exists?

Nope.

Is that right?

  ·  8 years ago (edited)

Hold on by arbitrary right and wrong do you simply mean that each individual can have a different view of what is right and wrong? for example right and wrong based on relative interest? @inertia

I'm just trying to get some common ground. Let the blockchain record that this is impossible with you.

hahaha!
Everything is either true or false, and everything is certain. - I won't change on that.

I don't believe there is any meaningful way to qualify human actions, so I do not believe there is a right or wrong.

Actions are defined by what is possible.

Actions are incentivized by the interest of the actor.