Well, more like two.
1. Is it morally legitimate to initiate the use of force (violence) against another non-violent human being?
2. Can an institution, organization, group or other individual or entity whose existence/livelihood is based on said initiation of force/violence be said to be moral?
Congratulations! If you answered “no,” to the above two questions, you’re an anarchist/voluntaryist!
Welcome!!!
~KafkA
Graham Smith is a Voluntaryist activist, creator, and peaceful parent residing in Niigata City, Japan. Graham runs the "Voluntary Japan" online initiative with a presence here on Steem, as well as DTube and Twitter. (Hit me up so I can stop talking about myself in the third person!)
i sould always be no .
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No. Those who make violence is bad for an society . They want power. They are always greedy. They think this is perfect way to find out the peace of mind. Actually they never get it.
@kafkanarchy84
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Is it moral to think that voting allows you to assign rights to a person or group of people that you do not have?
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No :)
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Of course I answer both questions with a NO.
After talking that other day you have me thinking even more than before.
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I’m glad to hear it!!!
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Nice post friend and my answer to these two questions is also no and i am an anarchist/voluntaryist. Stay blessed
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My answer is NO.. and i remember this quote
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
Ernst F. Schumacher
Thank you.
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Training, experience, and attitude can de-escalate almost any situation.....almost.
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Wise words @pastbasterd
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Is there a right like that. Must be an evil right. It's a no no
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Yes. It is an evil “right.” Called the “divine right” to rule, and most people today still believe in it.
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My answer is big "No "my friend, I am not the supporter of unhealthy organiation who's very base is violence.
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Cool. Can I come live on your planet? Every nation on Earth, as well as international bodies require violence. It is horrible, especially in USA.
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This is correct. Which is why to reject institutions based on violence consistently is to be an anarchist at this point.
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And there endeth the lesson!
It's that simple, I would imagine that many people reading this succinct message will realise they're in the voluntaryist camp without ever knowing it. Nice work Graham.
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Does not make you anything but a pacifist. Anarchy will require the removal of government. There has not been a "bloodless" revolution to date, nor will there be one any time soon by my calculation. Volunteering might light the path for the non-violent but people are animals, and many cannot even confront violence, better yet, overcome violence. It is wrong to initiate violence, but what about answering violence? The greater force wins in violent confrontation. I would go so far as to say that a physical element is required for grounding, so with the associated emotions, to long to list, violence will occur. Noble idea; a non-violent world, but after a few days of not eating, primates become violent, always.
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I never said defensive force was illegitimate, did I?
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That is true, but if a man is choking a woman, do you get involved? Should she not defend herself?
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She should or I should or someone should. Yes. I didn’t argue against self-defensive force, either.
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What about in the case of theft? If someone is trying to steal my silver, should I use force? If I stand in the doorway, passively, will they initiate the violence? Just push me down and run away? I will start the violence if someone offends my family, honor, or possibly even, my property.
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Them attempting to get past you, into your house, to steal your silver (property) is already a violation. This is already violence, is it not?
They have already initiated the violation. You stopping them is self-defense.
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“Removal” doesn’t imply “Revolution.” A thing or a concept can be slowly disassembled over time without all the bloodshed and violence. (See the dissolution of African slave labor in the United States vs in Canada).
You said there hasn’t been a bloodless revolution to date, but there also hasn’t been a successful anarchist revolution ever, because anarchy isn’t really an end-result at which you can ultimately arrive and then declare some kind of Hegelian End of History.
It’s an infinite ongoing process in the mind-set and ideologies of all people.
And it’s certainly not something that will be accomplished by needless violence against people who simply don’t know any better and are, therefore, benefiting from the State’s violent behavior.
The window smashers want people to believe that their propaganda of the deed is going to accomplish a paradigm shift in society.
But destroying the display of the guy who just bought a franchise and is working hard everyday to feed his family isn’t helping anyone (no amount of window smashing has ever lead to anything but an increase of the State in the past) and it’s certainky hurting that guy and the people he employs.
Is the guy necessarily complicit in the entire State system and a beneficiary of the crony-capitalists’ ill-gotten earnings?
Yes, of course.
But does he know all that? Has he ever been given an opportunity to know all that? Has he ever been exposed to anything but a society which everyday is bombarded with propaganda promoting an entire corrupt system?
Chances are, no.
So not only is violence against that guy impractical, it’s also pretty immoral for anyone who believes in the simple moral concept that if a person is unaware that they are doing something wrong and has never been given an opportunity to even be aware that they should be aware that they did something wrong, it’s violating that person’s dignity as a human being to punish them for those things they are doing without even realizing their badness.
I’m coming to find that the window-smashers want to say that pacifism and anarchism are mutually exclusive because they are usually amped up kids who like the idea of breaking stuff and this gives them a great excuse.
(And, even though it’s ancillary, I believe you’re wrong about how primates work...bonobos, while still resorting to violence on occasion, are largely pacifistic and resolve their conflicts in non-violent ways).
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Been spending most our lives living in the gangsters' paradiiise.
No and no bruv. It's 2018...and yet...yet some folks just don't know any other way. And that's how they slay...But what about self defense...?
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Self-defense is 100% morally legitimate! It’s built into the very design of nature.
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Well it sure is no !I guess I do am in the category of anarchist/voluntaryist!
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Well, I guess its a NO for me. ;-)
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NOOO!!! no one has the right to do so.
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It should allways be no
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I think always no and no
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actually, there is something tricky here. The inevitable answer is no. And this makes all ppl anarchists, which is impossible. Do the word organizations mentioned in your questions include mafia, gangs, police and army?
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Sure. Any initiators if violent force.
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Do you consider a gang of hackers or hatred promoters violent ppl?
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Did they steal someone’s property or physically harm them/threaten to harm them?
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...and how to go about the non-physical harm.
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Hackers will steal but in nonviolent way. Hate promoters will nonviolently make their followers angry only by conviction. To the point that violence may erupt at any moment.
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Stealing someone else’s property is always violent. It is always a violation.
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Violaion is not always violence. There is a huga difference. You need to go to the hacker’s house. Where he is not violent And take hem. If he agrees it is ok if not will you leave him.
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I am defining violence according to the libertarian legal definition. The aggression against person or property.
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“Hate promotors,” until they act or threaten someone, cannot legitimately be said to be “violent.”
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The leaders only speak about how others are evil they dont push followers explicitly to be violent. When some of the followers come to contact with these evil ppl without any planning clashes start. That is actually what happens.
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Right. That’s not violence though. That’s just speech. The people who actually take action and violate others are the violent ones.
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I'll break it down even further, to one step. "Do I have the right to say, no?, without violent recourse?" If yes = voluntary. If no = not-voluntary.
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But then again we could always move to Somalia right?
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Apparently that's where it's at.
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niceboss
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While I'm absolutely against police brutality or unnecessary violence in general, there are grey areas though, as in everything. :D
Are these actions/situations count as violent or merely dragging(maybe even causing bruises in the process) someone away counts as initiating force?
For example, police/security have to forcefully drag away someone who non-violently stole 1 million $ from common people but calmly refuse to go with the police?
Or any other person who non-violently break rules that cause a problem for the people around them. Naked dude/gal running into public events, non-violently of course.
Public transport users without tickets, who refuse to go down from the train/bus/etc. Goes on an airplane without a ticket and just sits in someone's chair.
Comes to your house and non-violently refuse to leave. I've heard numerous situations lately about people simply going into someone else's property to live there. No harm or anything, they just use it and refuse to leave.
Stands in the center of the road, blocking traffic.
Not violent at all but don't care about a restraining order.
Of course, there are way more scenarios where force is sadly necessary, but I'm not saying that "force" should be a baton/bullet right in the face of course unless something escalates to that level where it's inevitable(but that's 100% in the violent category).
If these are necessary, then what would happen without someone who takes action in these situations?
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The situations you’ve described are almost all violations of some individual’s self-ownership or private property. Violation of self or property = violence.
The guy that stole the money violated the property of the folks he stole from.
Naked dude or gal running around isn’t doing shit wrong unless the property owner objects to them being naked on their property.
Transport users without tickets are stealing from the transport company. This is a violation of property.
The person sitting in the chair is stealing the rightfully purchased space from the purchaser, thus essentially claiming ownership of the purchaser’s rented property (seat).
Breaking and entering is also a violation of property, as is refusing to leave when the owner asks.
Blocking traffic could be violent depending on who owns the road the same way it would be violent for you to keep a woman from exiting her car or some other such scenario.
I think the issue here is that we define violence differently, perhaps.
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I see, yeah, I thought about violence as someone causing exact physical harm to another individual. After clearing that misunderstanding, it seems our opinion is quite similar about this topic.
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It does, yeah.
Probably the most interesting “gray area” I’ve heard put out there so far is “violating” someone’s body by yanking them back from the street when a car is coming and they were unaware. I thought that was an interesting scenario to discuss. Technically a “violation” of the person’s body, but also a preservation.
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Indeed, but that's to save someone, I bet most people would be more than grateful. ^^
So ultimately, what would be an end-game scenario, a perfect utopia for an anarchist?
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For me, and for almost all other voluntaryists I know, it’s not about utopia at all. That’s the problem, actually, with government as it exists currently. It is the height of utopian fantasy to claim that just the right amount of violence and violation will bring peace and security. We’re just simply saying to base all human interaction on individual self-ownership and private property. There would still be bad things in the world, but a hell of a lot less, and not by design, as is the situation we currently face.
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1. Is it morally legitimate to initiate the use of force (violence) against another non-violent human being?
In the abstract "no", but one wonders what exactly the non-violent person is doing.
2. Can an institution, organization, group or other individual or entity whose existence/livelihood is based on said initiation of force/violence be said to be moral?
Who is doing that and why?
The devil is in the details. Do I call the cops on teenagers trespassing on the school property at night who are disturbing the peace? hell yes!
And I do that because if I personally went over there to tell the kids to leave there is a potential that they will respond with violence or that I will escalate the situation to one of violence, and I don't want to be involved. Better for everyone involved the police to go there and threaten them with violence if they don't leave because they just leave and then there is no violence.
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This has always been the hard question.
There are those who are bigger and stronger and choose to use force to get what they want in this world.
You could say that 99% of humanity has been enslaved in this way for centuries, and so it is in their blood. Just go along to get along. Say yes sir, to the cops, the tax man...
And, this group of psychopaths have formed a govern-cement to serve them. Everyone else is just a subject of the govern-cement.
The only question about morality is that we have been programmed in sunday school and govern-cement school that this way is the best choice. To go along with the school.
Sure, it is easy to work out that initiation of force is not moral. But, what do you do with that gem once you find it?
The only thing that really works is learning win-win negotiation. And then ruthlessly apply it. But, most people do not even know how to negotiate.
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Please, keep going on this good artitude and activities.
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it is reality & thanks for searing....
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I'm of the thought that humans are given brains and ability to speak. They should use both to resolve conflicts or socialize. Animals have none and thus need to demonstrate violence to prove their point.
We evolved from animals but should know our strengths.
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No and always no
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If law inforcement entity is corrupt, it should be corrected, if the laws are unfair they should be vhanged. There a certain situations when you will find yourself need force to protect yourself or others. Not to throw these entity out of the window.
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There is a huge dufference between anarchy and chaios.
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I am all for private defense/police.
The police organizations that exist now though should definitely be “thrown out the window.”
Even their salaries are paid through violent means (extortion/taxation).
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What is private police? Sorry
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I wish more people understood the principles behind these 2 questions. In my experience, people tend to respond to question 2 in the following ways: Either they deny that taxation is theft ("I don't see it that way!") or they say that the theft is ok because things would be worse without it. If only more people were willing to live their public lives the way they live their private lives...
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Both answers are no.
Force should only be used as a way of defense.
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Simple off-the-top-of-my-head assessment based on the first question:
The answer to this hinges on the answer to the question, "Are there situations where initiating violence against a non-violent human being may be moral?"
If the answer to this question is 'yes', then a simple yes/no answer to this question becomes impossible.
Consider: someone with masochistic tendencies may derive satisfaction from degradation and humiliation. Knowing of this person's submissive nature, and that it is both likely the individual will enjoy it and will not move to defend themselves, a partner slaps them a few times during a particularly intense bout of sex. The individual has not explicitly asked for it, this is simply an assumption made on the part of the one taking the more dominant role. Both individuals achieve orgasm, one from wielding control, the other from a lack of control.
By any definition, this is initiating violence against another non-violent human being.
How does Voluntaryism address a scenario such as this?
Please note, I'm not being deliberately obtuse or antagonistic here, I genuinely want to know what people think about this, as a 'Yes' answer to this scenario seems to pose a paradox to any would-be Voluntaryist if the requirements include a 'No' answer to both questions.
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That’s a very rare hypothetical which may indeed pop up in reality in a society basing itself on voluntaryist principle. It’s definitely no reason to discredit voluntaryist principle (as their are infinitely more violent “gray areas”—indeed, sometimes by design!—in the current statist paradigm/legal system).
Short answer: If there’s free and voluntary consent there is no violation. What those two do in the bedroom is up to them to decide. It’s not up to you to decide, really, as there is no way to tell. It’s up to the individual being slapped.
The moment said individual says “no,” it’s violence. Even before that, as you say, the first slap may or may not have been with the consent of the individual receiving the blow. This is why I say it is impossible for us to judge here, but the individual must decide, and then choose to allow the act, self-defend, and/or pursue legal recourse.
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Thank you for this clarification. :)
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My take, nope.
If you're into kinky shit in the bedroom, up until the person being slapped says "I've had enough" or "stop doing that", and they don't, is when it becomes violence. But I would gander most people into s&m have a safe word to handle these types of situations. This would simply be consensual (kinky) sex.
"Thank you sir, may I have another!?"
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but 'consensual' and 'voluntary' mean two different things under the Voluntaryist philosophy, I presume?
Either slapping a person is violent, or it isn't. If it is, but there are times when inflicting violence upon a non-violent other (ie: not in defense of one's self or property) would be considered moral (or at least would not automatically be considered immoral), than the answer to question one as proposed by @kafkanarchy84 must be "Yes." Said answer violates the conclusion to his syllogism, and would appear to indicate that a true Voluntaryist does not believe there are times when the application of violence against a non-violent other is moral (or is at least not immoral).
Again, not trying to be pedantic or start an argument, I'm genuinely interested in how the philosophy handles this type of quandary.
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I think I have been an anarchist/voluntaryist since the day I was born!
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NO and NO! @kafkanarchy84
Some Sunday Henry David Thoreau:
If one were to tell me that this was a bad government because it taxed certain foreign commodities brought to its ports, it is most probable that I should not make an ado about it, for I can do without them. All machines have their friction; and possibly this does enough good to counter-balance the evil. At any rate, it is a great evil to make a stir about it. But when the friction comes to have its machine, and oppression and robbery are organized, I say, let us not have such a machine any longer.
In other words, when a sixth of the population of a nation which has undertaken to be the refuge of liberty are slaves, and a whole country is unjustly overrun and conquered by a foreign army, and subjected to military law, I think that it is not too soon for honest men to rebel and revolutionize. What makes this duty the more urgent is that fact that the country so overrun is not our own, but ours is the invading army.
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