For those that may not know, Liberland is a newly-formed micro-country between Croatia and Serbia, which seeks to be the most libertarian state on the planet. I know, I know. Libertarian state? I'm not holding my breath either, or expecting a miracle. That said, it is, at present, leaps and bounds beyond any other violent nation-state I know of in terms of being actually non-insane and live-able. This is because the Liberland constitution itself is based on largely the voluntaryist anarchist philosophy.
In Liberland, private property is to be the law of the land. You own what you own. You can arm yourself, grow whatever plants you like, and make whatever private, voluntary contracts you want with whomever else without a "license." Your money is yours. No taxes.
One problem I see, however, and an issue which I believe is still currently under debate is the "Land Fee" discussed in the constitution. This to me is a huge red flag which just sounds like a euphemism for yet another tax.
Aside from this one issue at present. I like what I see. As long as you are not violating the self-ownership or private property of another individual, pretty much all things are permissible (as they damn well should be).
Who the hell knows what will come of it, but wish me luck! Has anyone else here on the platform applied? Anyone else already a "citizen"? If so, what are your thoughts on the "land fee?" My position, at present, and as a full-on, no-compromises "purist" anarchist, is this:
It may not be the ideal, but having citizenship in "Liberland" where there is still at least some semblance of sense behind the thinking organizing the society cannot hurt, as I am already here completely surrounded by violent statist, psycho-sociopath murderers in seats of unfathomably massive power. Might be nice to have somewhere less violent to run away to, if the need arises.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in the comments.
~KafkA
Graham Smith is a Voluntaryist activist, creator, and peaceful parent residing in Niigata City, Japan. Graham runs the "Voluntary Japan" online initiative with a presence here on Steem, as well as DTube and Twitter. (Hit me up so I can stop talking about myself in the third person!)
I've always liked the idea since it was first proposed.
The land fees thing is weird and does indeed sound like a tax, surely once you purchase your patch that's it.
The biggest problem I foresee is its success, I know that sounds stupid but TPTB will be all over it trying to ensure that it gets reported in a negative light.
I can see the headlines.......
'Liberland - The land of anarchists and terrorists.'
Bitcoin and Liberland - The new axis of evil!?
'Criminals laundering money through Liberland'.
'Liberland supports Russia, Iran, Syria etc, etc.........
I hope I'm wrong. It's been known 😃
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I come from the country where Liberland is, Croatia.
It is really really sad thing that there are not so many people that know about such an amazing thing "within" our country.
The idea of Liberland is trully wonderful @tremendospercy
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It is indeed a beautiful idea.
I don't trust other countries to respect it should it be a success.
Hopefully it will be a catalyst for true freedom in many other places around the world one day.
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That would be nice indeed :) If you ever want to vist a Croatia howver, feel free to ask anything about the country (while/if you are here you can visit Liberland :D )
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Thanks mate, I was in Croatia last year.
I spent a bit of time in Dubrovnik and then a week on Kolocep (Kalamato) Island. What a beautiful place.
I would love to go back a see more as well as visit Liberland.
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Edwin, Hello. Please Come to the April 13th Liberland conference in Serbia and join us to learn more about Liberland. You can see more details at Liberland.org , thank you .
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Am I the only one why sees some disadvantages of the no taxes policy?
It sounds like freedom and they sell it like the greatest thing but taxes are there for a good reason.
Who is going to pay for police oder streets? Or do you want them to be run by a private company? To be honest this sounds very scary to me.
The problem with taxes is not that there are taxes but how you use them. I don't want to pay taxes to fight wars with people I don't know but I'm willing to pay taxes so familiys with disabled kids also can afford to go to school and get their special treatment they could never afford alone.
I'm a big fan of the old Greek idea of democratic. There you have the delegates which get chosen randomly. Sounds crazy but Is so far the best Idea I ever heard.
So If they want to create a new country they should come up with more interesting ideas then just to help tax dodgers.
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The problem with taxes is that they are not voluntary, but taken under threat of force.
How things would get done is an important question, and one that much careful thought, writing, discourse, discussion and debate has been addressing/attempting to address for decades now. You should check out the YouTube account Man Against the State. He deals with these questions in depth, as do other great Voluntaryist thinkers.
All that said, those questions don’t matter considering the real nature of the question, which is essentially asking: “Without the slaves, who will pick the cotton?” It doesn’t matter. Slavery is immoral. And as long as someone can take your money under threat of force, it really doesn’t matter what the money is going to pay for. Theft is wrong.
I think another reason people have a hard time conceiving of a free society is because they have been trained to think in the macro. That is to say ”We need big, mega-state scale solutions to solve these huge world problems!!” But that’s backwards. If you help one neighbor nearby, or provide, say, your professional skills and training to those in your immediate vicinity, and others do the same, helping little by little, pretty soon the “mega problems” disappear. No state is necessary for this. In fact, states tremendously hinder and restrict growth, prosperity, innovation, business, and human well-being, whereas free, individual actors in the free market create these things.
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That sounds exactly like the point where we have our differences.
I don't see taxes as theft. You get something back for your money.
It is very different in every country but there are some countries who manage to do it better like and some who just wast tax money. But if you have a community you need some way of getting money from everyone to pay for stuff everyone or the people with problems need.
Thanks for the youtube tip I will watch him later.
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Taking money from someone under threat of violence is not theft?
In what sense? That is the very definition of theft, is it not?
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The difference is, that a thief will not give anything back but a tax is suppose to pay things for the people who payed the taxes.
There are a lot of problems with taxes but I would not say that all taxes are bad and should be removed.
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So if a thief would give you something back, it would not be theft? Where do you live? ;)
Let's say a "thief" guild comes every month, asks you nicely for a part of your money, and they say they use the money to hire more people to protect you from theft. Would you say
Oh well It's not theft cause they give me protection...they give me that service back?
Let's say this guild opens a "free" school for your kids ) and teach your kids on how great they are, in giving protection to people. And how there are bad egotistical people who don't want to pay for protection. Would that make things better?
Or this guild opens a hospital from the money they ahum "collect"?
Of they build a jail for all the "criminals" especially the ones who don't want the protection service?
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If a "thief" guild would come to my house and protect me from something which is not caused by them that would be ok.
Is it not ok if a policeman protects you from people steeling your stuff? If the policeman want to get money from you so he doesn't steel your stuff thats a different thing.
Also another problem. You would probably get protection from thiefs all by yourself. So you get guns and security and whatever. But there is a poor lady on the other side of the street. She is almost 80, her husband died a few years ago and they never had kids because she is sterile. She can't protect herself from anything. She should probably get a job but because she is to old nobody wants to hire her because everyone is to afraid she could die any day. How can she be protected by the thiefs? Or should she just live with if because she is already to old and almost dead?
Who would protect you from people organising to become a "thief" guild? You would deal with if with your friends wouldn't you? But what if the people would become more who would protect you?
The idea of taxes is to create a bigger thing which is oranised by the people who pay for it. Right now it is not happening in some countries, but thats not because taxes are per se bad.
I'm not saying everything with taxes is great, but I can see the need of taxes. It would be great if we would not need them so people can't fu** do shit with it but I can't see a better option for this problem and I can't image the free market bringing us one.
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You pay for the police all you want, via tax, but you can not force me to pay what you want. And you can't send your hired mercenaries (police) to make me pay for your hired mercenaries. Than you would be violating me and your mercenaries too. And I need protection from you and your hired mecenaries
Police can only do what normal people also would have the right to do....because they are normal people, just like you and me. They have no higher power and they can not get it from you me or anybody else either, you can not give what you don't have, and imagining that by doing some serious looking pseudo religious rituals you can give them that higher power is just a belief (as in religion) but doesn't give them higher power either. That someone who represents you can only do what you can do yourself, can also be show in that you can't hire a hitman to kill someone and give him higher power. You can not give them higher power neither can I. They have the power to stop real crimes, those with a victim. Just like me and you.
And the story of the old lady does not change that.
That is a, what if, problem.
Also that you are being protected, by police, I don't see it. It is really extreme rare that they protected someone (up front) And history shows they did not do much protection. They just follow orders just do their job, which consist of enforcing the whims of the politicians. history shows very well how organized protection always turns to organized murdering of the masses of people they should have protected. But very few of the order followers are actually protecting or turning to the resistance and thereby breaking the law. (because they are order followers they follow orders not their moral compass or conscience)
But of course it could be that, in communistic russia and nazi germany the police did maybe, in the meantime, help some old lady, when they where not buzzy deporting and murdering other innocent people.
Also because you and other people think you "need" them doesn't justify them violating me.
Maybe you can not imagine how the free market would bring such a thing. But I'm not gonna be a slave to your lack of imagination. The free market will not bring it either, we ourselves have to do it.
We are the free market, a market where the initiation of violence is not welcome. Because when there is the initiation of violence, there is no free market.
It's not hard for me to imagine hiring a protection agency or becoming part of one myself, without using violence and threatening my neighbour to pay for one, or pay me, with the use of violence.
We people can organize protection without becoming criminals ourselves, by threatening and stealing and violence.
But It's just a hard concept for other people to grasp and I understand that.
English is not my native language so there may be a mistake or two.
Peace.
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This would be a fantastic YouTube debate video .... errr I mean Dtube .... But in the end, I still believe taxation must be implemented in a voluntary manner in order to be virtuous.
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So if I come to your door and take money at gunpoint to build a park for your kids...that’s okay? That’s not theft?
What if the whole neighborhood agrees you should chip in for the park and they come with me, gun in hand, to take the money? Moral? Alright? Not theft?
What if I get everyone in the town, call it “government” and come to your door, and we all agree you should pay for the park (hey, you’ll be getting something in return) or be locked in a cage or killed if you resist? Moral? Of course not.
How is this any different qualitatively from what the state does when it collects taxes? Your argument isn’t logical.
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Is it ok with you that I "broke in" your conversation. A little late to ask, I know. But I ask you so that I won't do it the next time, and shut up if you don't like it. And I apologize for doing it now.
Peace.
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Of course man. I was replying to the OP. I agree with you.
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This is interesting to me! I was doing some research on micronations recently (wiki has a List), and read up on the constitution of Liberland. It has...nice approaches, I guess.
In the constitution the part with the land-owning looks like :
But then again, this follows:
So most laws could be vetoed? The concepts behind micronations can be great, but as usual the surrounding countries will ultimately not let it pass.
Anyway, cool post!
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Currently, Liberland is just a shack on a piece of land. I hope it will become a great success, although I have my doubts it will work in the long run.
Let this at least be a test. I believe half a million people have applied for citizenship, so the desire for liberty is definitely big. The question now is how many people will actually take action and help develop the country.
If a group of people can come together and build great things on a voluntary basis, who knows how big the outcry will be when other states intervene with force. We will win either way!
Regarding the land fee, I believe they do it to get the money flowing towards Liberland. You don't have to pay the land fee, so consider them 'shares' in the private company of Liberland Inc. ;-) Not sure if that's the best way to go, but only time will tell.
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I applied for Liberland citizenship last year! Nothing has come of it yet. Every now and then they send me emails requesting donations. Wishing you the best :)
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I think my thoughts echo your own for the most part. It's a wonderful gesture and if everything works out it could really become something amazing, maybe even inspire the growth of more autonomous, voluntary regions.
But I'm often a pessimist regarding things of this nature. If something sounds too good to be true it's because it probably is. These attempts to free people from the violence of statist control never really seem to go anywhere.
That being said, I always hope the best for endeavours like this, I really would love to see something like Liberland succeed, and I might have to look into applying for citizenship myself.
I think my dream "state" would be a country that exists without the need for any sort of governing body or the need for a constitution. To quote Mitch Hedberg, "We don't need to bring ink and paper into this."
Oh, and yeah, that land fee does sound suspiciously like a tax.
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Hey @kafkanarchy84 ! Liberland trully is amazing idea! Btw I come from the country where Liberland is kinda located - Croata If you ever plan to visit Croatia before you go to visit Liberland ask me anything you want to know about the place
(From touristic locations, best parties etc etc)
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Thanks, @edwinbeutti! Much appreciated, and will do!
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Hey no probs bud :)
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Good luck my friend. I look forward to hearing how that goes. :) Way to take action, take risk, and actually do something.
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Wow! I would love to move to a place like this, but in the world we live in today, I feel like to be truly free we have to go off planet. Why would they put a land fee in the constitution? What is it used for? It seems like a fancy way to say tax so be careful. Good luck and I truly hope it works out.
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Thank you, @sarah33. I really appreciate that.
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"I'm not holding my breath either, or expecting a miracle."
Neither am I. I don't think it will work in the long run. But if we signal our desire for liberty, the market will begin to encourage more if it, and we may make governments obsolete even in the eyes of die-hard statists.
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Was there any progress coming out of Liberland yet. Last I heard of the project anyone who stepped foot on the land would be arrested by the Croatia Police Force.
Very interesting though, I would love to have another citizenship and Liberland would be a good one to get even though itmay not be perfect. Definite step up from the Democratic Peoples Republic of Kanadastan that I currently live in.
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Looks like this is what you were mentioning:
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Hadn't seen this video yet. I wonder how recently this one was made. When I get home from my daily dose of wage / tax slavery I am going to do some more looking around about Liberland. Totally slipped to the back of my mind, Thanks for brining it front and center again LOL.
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Yeah, I have heard the same thing about Liberland. Police from surrounding countries dragged people away with no reason. But if I remember well, that was around the time when they created Liberland.
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Ya I remember in the very beginning someone went and planted a flag on the land and it pissed off Croatia. They were living in a river boat at the time, and that was when they were trying to gain status as a nation... It was a while ago when I looked at the information...
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Did find this, though:
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Red flag for me — a flag. And other statist paraphernalia.
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Definitely looks like this is more current than the material i last looked at for Liberland. Looks like good news that they are getting some recognition in the Croatian Parliment too.
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That...that was beautiful. And so bulls eye. Wow.
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Huh. No shit. Hadn't heard that, but wouldn't be surprised, either. At all.
Kanadastan is just getting worse and worse it seems. At least from what I follow in the "news." Just like the USSA.
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Pretty much. To make matters worse I don't really see any ground swell of people interested in true freedom.. I feel like everyone I talk to has never considered the government to be detrimental to their freedom, and the mere suggestion of abolishing the government is so foreign and extreme that they just shut down 100% if presented the idea.
Gonna be a rough ride for this socialist state....
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The only problem I see is that the other nations around Liberland. If it becomes big enough the EU could just come in and use force to give it over to one of the neighboring countries. I rather have my stakeout on the seas. All the Land is controlled by statists.
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Yep. Agree 100%.
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I for one see this as a major leap forward. it may not be perfect anything rarely is. I wish you luck with your application.
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@kafkanarchy84,
Salutations! JaiChai here.
Thanks for this intriguing opportunity.
$10K doesn't sound too bad - IF it's legit.
They seem to be focused on building everything right now.
I'll be keepong my eyes on this one.
Too bad they don't have a crowdsale or position themselves as the first "Nation ICO"!?
Namaste, my friend.
JaiChai
P.S.
Believe me, having multiple citizenships and valid passports is just totally cool (and convenient)!
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I love the idea. I guess the thing that gets me is the idea that the rest of the world would allow this to happen. As soon as there is any type of resource to be exploited the U.S. will put a base there. Or, if the U.N. feels you need something they will be there. Is it truly possible to establish a place that doesn't play the game like the rest of the world?
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Good post:)
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I've always wanted to live in a place like that. Maybe if my income ever becomes solely crypto base I can make it a reality in that I could pretty much live anywhere with a connection to the internet.
Would be interesting to see what companies begin to move there as well. Haven't done much reading on it, but it looks like I need to do some more poking around as it's becoming more and more of a reality.
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I've been following the Liberland situation since it started. I haven't applied for citizenship, although I am curious. It's value still seems to be nullified to some degree by lack of international recognition. Perhaps this is just a slow process. I know they have had 'border' issues with their neighbours, and as yet can't really access their own country safely. I await further progress on this front.
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Enthusiasmが、Ethereumに見えました！病気ですね（笑）
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brotha man, could i persuade you to auto vote me?
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i want to be a liberland citizen, too. i interviewed V. it will be interesting.
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Freedom is very beautiful. I hope that you get the nationality as soon as possible until you get what you want
You are a really adventurous person, my friend
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Good luck for you about applying for citizenship to Liberland. I don't know where you live but I think you found a country for you
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Awesome post! I invite you to visit our blog and vote us back! And of course to enjoy our content :)
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That's so cute. They're gonna have a land fee and you have to pay it, or else...
What I mean is...if you don't pay it they’re gonna...
Well…uhhhh
What exactly does happen if you don't pay it?
Are they going to send their “non-aggressive anarchist police force” out after you?
Until they eradicate all talk of this “land fee,” I’m pretty sure your first investment decision before moving there should be to purchase a tank.
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I don' t necessarily disagree, but by that logic, everyone in the world should have a tank, and then some. The existent nation states are psychotically violent.
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No disagreement from me on that one.
The only problem is that in most of these places, they are pretty explicit on th front end about what happens to you for buying a tank.
In Liberland, it looks like it’s just a pragmatic purchase.
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Interesting concept indeed, will be keeping an eye on how this pans out.
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You silly ass anarchists will never learn. It be pretty intresting though if I could get my foverment-form somewhere. And to that actual blog post, I feel that this land tax is just outcome of trying to make something that just won't work, and then it ends up watered down.
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I don’t know what your “foverment-form” is. Sorry.
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You find it from my blogs. It may not look like different at first, but it will reveal it self when it is tested.
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If you’re not willing to explain your position clearly here I am certainly not going to go out of my way looking to understand it.
Cheers.
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Monetary-system
New money is made directly to people as basic-income with addittional money printed as "goverment's-percent" for goverment's expences. NO TAXES!!!
Goverment-form is a parlamentary-system were people can either vote for or against a person and his/hers party. This is to help tie goverement closer to society by the system actually being able take into account disagreements and oppositions, unlike in the current system where you can only "agree", but there is no option to disagree. Parties sitting order in the parlament is to be determined by the amount of seats they get. This is to eliminate left-right elitism.
State's constitution must serve and make state serve society. Society must be unified by filling peoples "spirituality" with society. People must be taught that society comes first. This does not mean that people can't be muslims or in other religions, this simply means that there can not be conflict beetween these religions and society. Society will always come first if such conflict appears.
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Do they allow dual citizenship? Serbia sounds sketchy tho in its past and current state of affairs lol
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Yes, we allow dual citizenship.
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Living in the Balkans, I've not heard about this country soon. Although Bulgaria is just a few hundreds kilometers away, nothing to be said around. Indeed it seems like a very hard thing to achieve... I mean this type of country and no one to be against that and to be just OK.
I wonder if this all is true, why no one mentions anything anywhere?!?
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Seems interesting. Keep us updated once you are there!
No doubt other countries(governments) will try to avoid such places from existing.
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<-------- Although decreasing daily, there is still hope for America.
Pleas read my free E -book and give me some feedback, or at least check it out. In this short E-book I define what I think is the last real hope for "America".
https://steemit.com/libertarian/@bscrypto/free-e-book-america-a-libertarian-perspective-and-a-declaration-of-peace-and-innovation
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I don’t really care about “America,” but when you write an e-book about “The Individual,” lemme know!
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This book is about the individual, i only use the word "Anerica" because many people will relate. Part of the book however is about how people don't actually know to what they are refering when they say America. What is does America mean to you?
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I live 20 km from there. It is great idea, but from time to time authorities of Serbia are coming and arresting people who are there. My advice is if you come here take care of not staying more then 3 months in community, otherwise you will get stamp in passport when you try to leave Serbia that will disable you to come again within period of 5 years
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I still don't know what Liberland is. If you get citizenship then what? Is it a real country or just people living illegally between countries? If it's not a real country what is the value of the citizenship if you can't use it to get a foreign passport or open a foreign bank account? If you could do that then I would totally understand.
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Hello. Please Come to the April 13th Liberland conference in Serbia and join us to learn more about Liberland. You can see more details at Liberland.org , thank you .
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