Is Steem Heading For A New Coke Moment???steemCreated with Sketch.

in busy •  6 years ago 

For those who are not old enough to remember this mess, New Coke was a genius idea by some strung out knucklehead at the Coca-Cola company in the 1980s. They decided to radically alter the formula for Coke, after more than 90 years. Coke, if memory serves me, was the best selling soft drink at that time although it had been losing market share.

New Coke was introduced and the old formula scrapped. Based upon taste tests, people indicated they preferred the sweeter taste of Pepsi. The taste tests were wrong.

The new formula bombed severely. It was so bad that the original formula was brought back within 3 months. Renamed "Coca-Cola Classic", it still is in the same form more than 30 years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

So why do I bring this up?

It appears the Witnesses are going to accept a proposal from Steemit Inc. regarding Hard Fork 21. This is going to radically alter the basis of how Steem operates.

To start, I have one question for all Witnesses: When has Steemit Inc ever shown itself to have the community's best interest at heart?

I will grant the organization was better the last 6 months but after the previous 3 years, is it wise to trust them? I do not believe it is at this point.

This proposal went from idea to Hard Fork in a very quick period of time. Is this also wise?

Here is something that was said, I presume, tongue in cheek but it does drive home the point.

hf21.png

Do you all remember Hard Fork 20? It was a complete goat f*ck. Witnesses did NOT do their job ensuring that the system was protected. All ability to post was wiped out for most accounts. The sudden shift to Resource Credits left a lot of smaller accounts without the ability to do anything even after things were restored over a week later.

Aren't the Witnesses suppose to be looking out for the community?

So now we are suppose to trust that something goes from an idea to Hard Fork in about a month is well vetted?

@timcliff wrote up a post about the Hard Fork and his thoughts on it. It is a worthwhile read before proceeding further to get an idea of what changes are taking place.

https://www.steempeak.com/hf21/@timcliff/hardfork-21-steem-proposal-system-sps-economic-improvement-proposal-eip

I want to thank Tim for writing that and for explaining the changes that are on the table.. What I am posting here is nothing against him personally. I used him as an example although he is far from unique in this.

Unfortunately, his post is full of "I do not knows" and "we are not sures". This is another major red flag to me. How can we be considering implementing something so drastic and fundamentally altering on a "we have no idea if it will work but we are bound to just try something"?

Here is what the goal is:

It means more money going into the hands of users who are contributing to the value of Steem, and less money going into the hands of the users who are just here to leach. Hopefully, this leads to more value being generated - which can potentially lead to a higher STEEM price.

Leaving the "hopefully" aside, how on earth does anyone think that this will end up in the hands of people contributing? Are we to believe the smaller accounts will be better off than they are today?

Look at the math that @preparedwombat did.

hf21.png

Even if the math is not exact since the voting rewards have variables such as when they took place, the point is there. The drop in author payout is even bigger since the funding of proposals that is being also taken out of the reward pool.

hf21.png

So now we are going to see the smaller accounts' payout affected not only by a reduced reward pool (which is fine, we should fund worker proposals in some manner because they can provide a great deal of value) but we are also taking the measly amount they get and cutting it down significantly.

How are they suppose to make it up? By curating themselves? What is the curation when a vote is worth .002?

So what is the goal here? Is it for smaller accounts to make even less money while larger ones (including bid bots) take home bigger chunks?

Surely we are not going to lean on that manual curation idea. Does anyone think the larger accounts are going to upvote a couple hundred minnows and planktons a week?

Not to pick on Tim but let us look at his voting record over the past two weeks.

hf21.png

Is this suddenly going to change? Are these Orcas and Whales suddenly going to start to spread the upvotes around a lot more to compensate for the loss in author rewards that these smaller accounts are experiencing?

The answer is no simply because it is impossible. There is no way that any of these people can manually curate hundreds of accounts a day, every day. There is not enough hours unless one is curating full time. And even then, how do you find the smaller accounts? The ability to find content on this blockchain sucks (perhaps that is something that should be addressed first) so how is Mr. Whale going to find Ms. Quality Content Newbie?

So, once again, what is the goal? Is it to have a thriving ecosystem with smaller accounts coming on and beginning their journey? Or is it to enrich the few who has a lot of SP who can take a larger chunk by curating.

Another issue I have is the narrative that this will stop the bid bots. How is that even a logical outcome? The amount they are receiving is going to increase. Their curation just jumped. And with less of a payout to authors, there is even more (not less) incentive to use them to get some attention. They can do the math and adjust their algorithm accordingly.

I can tell you bid bot owners are some pretty smart people and they are not going to just allow the rug to be pulled out from under them. Mark my words, this will be a windfall.

What I do know though, is we need some major changes to the system in order to even have a chance of getting there.

Okay how about this, every Orca and Whale, for the next 6 months, manually curate 50 accounts a day with under 1,000 SP. Do it without changing the system and giving the larger percentage of the rewards to the accounts who need it most. That would radically change the system.

Not going to happen? So why should we believe that the larger accounts will do it when the getting a bigger piece of the pie?

How about dealing with the on-boarding issue? As mentioned, perhaps a better way to search out content would be more productive?

Maybe use SMTs to alter the compensation people receive? Not done yet. How about waiting for them to come into being before making base changes?

There are a lot of things that can be addressed which will have more certain impact.

To me, this feels like the Witnesses are throwing toilet paper against the wall in hopes that something sticks.

Not exactly what I want to see from the Witnesses.

I can only hope we are not having a New Coke moment.


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Cutting author payouts seems to be a bad idea. After all it is authors who generate the content. If their incentives drop then less quality content will be produced.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I would agree. Some believe it will increase payouts but I do not see it for the vast percentage of the accounts. Most will get less and will not get increased votes to compensate for it.

Since I do believe the bid bots are going to get more powerful, that will cause them to have even a bigger influence.

Paid promotion is really going to take on new meaning in my estimation.

No, they will die under this model if everyone with stake uses their 2 free downvotes per day.
I know not everybody will use the downvotes, but if they did, bidbots would have no chance in hell.

They have to change the algorithm to make it (on paper) profitable for the users. But what happens if all those highly upvoted posts will get a lot of downvotes? I would join a flagging group to counter bidbots upvotes...
Lets say someone consistently sends 30 steem to a bidbot and his post gets downvoted to just 5STU. I am sure they are gonna do that 2-3 times max and think to
themselves never again... Why lose 100 steem on bidbots?

i can hardly wait to downvote an orca with my massive new curve vote of 0.02$ 2500 ps. i can't wait to get auto bot downvoted with 1% of his free downvote. yap that is what i can't wait to do.

I will disagree for a couple of reasons.

To start, much of the stake is with people who own bidbots themselves. Think of how many witnesses run those services. Secondly, a lot of the stake is invested in bid bots. This stake is certainly not going to downvote people who use the services.

The other piece of the puzzle is the tendency for flag wars. In my, just under 2 years, on here, we saw two major flag wars. The fallout of them was great. So I am sorry, but I cannot buy into the idea that the majority of the stake will be used for purposes being proposed. I have a feeling the masses are going to engage in behavior like we saw in the past. They did it when it cost them VP and now they will have 20% free to use on downvotes.

I cannot buy into the presumption of responsible use based upon past history.

This looks serious @gtg @exyle

If they cared about abuse and quality content it would show.

I totally agree!

Posted using Partiko iOS

And... it's for the authors.

TL;DR:

encouraging more of the behavior that we want, and discouraging the behavior we don't want

Trending page is full of paid votes.
Paid votes are there because it's a great business within rules of current economics.
So many people sold their SP to voting services because they are getting paid for votes, votes, that are going to those who pay for them. Content is irrelevant in this scenario.
Those are not the authors we are looking for.
Empowering curation makes this game more complex than just: "sell your SP to bots and profit." and incentivize to look for good content instead of just selling votes.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Who will play this game .... looks to complicated.... why not just make it a job for someone ... more curies project, influensers etc ..

Hi, I am wondering if there was any discussion amongst the witnesses of some manual curation positive incentive versus negative incentive with the downvote pool. If we wish to encourage people to read posts and reward quality, perhaps we could give extra curation to manual curators and less curation to Bid Bots.
I know that Bid Bots attract investors to Steem and this is a good thing, but the curation system could be tweaked a bit, say 10% extra for manual curation or even 20% like the proposed downvote pool. I am thinking that one of the creators of Steemit thought we should build a system which rewards people for behavior you wish to encourage, so that it becomes in peoples best interest financially to do the right thing. Your thoughts?

Posted using Partiko iOS

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Great to have some more opposition to this bad idea. I commented on it in posts where it's being advocated. I just don't see this working out as many of the proponents claim. The driving down bid bot use, and increase quality content on the platform, seems like a bad joke or deception to try to pass one over on the community, lulling us into complacent acceptance with this push. Resteemed ;)

Atp, it's looking intentional,...

We have no voice, we are steemit inc whores.

How about dealing with the on-boarding issue? As mentioned, perhaps a better way to search out content would be more productive?

Maybe use SMTs to alter the compensation people receive? Not done yet. How about waiting for them to come into being before making base changes?

Both of these ideas would be a lot more productive I think!

That’s exactly my line of thinking! To me debating rewards is sort of the minutia of the problem! We have too few users and a terrible UX to find content! Fix those things and we can start to worry about rewards later!

Rewards only affect the people who are here not the majority of the world who don’t know the site exists!

At this moment we just have people producing content for contents sake and very little real consumers of content/passive steemians! Like any social media you actually need an audience to be able to reach and amplify your content to but instead it’s just all about who gets what’s reward pool inflation

Posted using Partiko iOS

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I get the issue and understand how bad curation is threatening Steem but given what I’ve read here and from others I think I agree with you. This payout change isn’t going to help increase curation and could actually increase bot payouts.

Posted using Partiko iOS

But as Steem will drown to 0.001 usd even the biggest bots will loose money as well... with these idiots steering the ship this will go under...

How do you see Steem dropping that much? I don’t think this update is that bad

Posted using Partiko iOS

I think the real value is going to start coming from custom tokens. I could be wrong about that, but that's just me. After all, if those custom tokens get valuable enough, one could easily convert them back.

Posted using Partiko Android

I do believe that SMTs offer a great deal. That is another reason to wait and see how they perform. To make this move before the introduction of SMTs, which Steemit Inc claims are fairly close, makes little sense.

They could be a game changer and radically alter how people interact on here. Instead, we are looking to radically change the base layer on total unknowns.

I've been following all the community initiatives that have been attempting to fill in the gaps prior to these coming out. I think that's what we ought to be focusing on for the time being.

Posted using Partiko Android

If other tokens are better than steem, who continues to want steem?
Does steem become the toll troll to transact on this chain?

The SMTS will be paired with STEEM.

STEEM will always have value since it is the basis for the blockchain. Resource Credits are derived by how much SP one has.

You could make the same statement about ETH and EOS with what is being built on those. The main token allows for the operation of the blockchain and is the basis for what is built on top of it.

Now that does not mean that a particular SMT, as an example, does not eclipse STEEM and become more valuable than it. That certainly could happen.

That is certainly an option.
Were that to be how it plays out, steem then becomes the toll gate to transact on the chain while this smteee! becomes the store of value/means of exchange?

How big do you figure this smteee!, that is long promised and bound to usurp steem on its own chain, has to grow for 300+m steem tokens to have more value than they currently have?
If steem's sole use is rc credits what are we, authors, dapp creators, etc, doing here?
How does creating our own competition help in any way?
How does improving a landlord's building help to lower the rent?

What was wrong with the whale experiment?
Why dont we give its lessons a go?
Obviously the abuse chock blocks were intentionally removed, why would we trust those same people again?
Because its been 2 years and things will be different this time?

So many questions,...

This HF seems very fishy too me!

Posted using Partiko iOS

It's a good point that the hope that manual curation would increase is most likely misplaced. Your argument that manual curators with large upvotes would quite simply not have time to do that. That's why the distribution bot @ocdb is such a great thing. What it does is speed up the process by which stake distribution improves with the secondary benefit of improving the average quality of content. @nonsowrites suggested that instead of the reward system change, Steemit Inc should consider delegating more to communities where distribution takes place in a natural manner. That actually makes much more sense than any kind of tweaking of the reward distribution. It was such a shame that Musing and DSound lost their delegation. DSound in particular was a pretty awesome community. Ned said he pulled the delegation from DSound because he hadn't heard about it, which was a pretty arrogant move, as he should've considered choosing the cuts from a wider point of view. I'm glad that he's no longer CEO at Steemit Inc.

The argument has been put forward that 50/50 curation has yielded good results on smoke.io. Maybe. But how big is smoke.io? Could it be that manual curation actually works better on very small platforms despite a possibly very top heavy stake distribution? Maybe Steem is already too large for manual curation to work without delegations to communities.

Then again, maybe this change will not make a big difference - one way or another. I

What it does is break proof of brain.
It rewards folks when they pay to play.
IF they bend over first, gotta be whitelisted.

Stinc delegations rob everybody to reward the favored.
Just a fact in the math.

@ocdb?

Proof-of-Brain is a fantasy in a stake-based voting system like Steem. It has never worked as intented and it will never work as intended.

The most important function of Steem Power is voting for witnesses, that is, Delegated-Proof-of-Stake. For this blockchain to be truly decentralized and secure from manipulation or attacks, Steem Power must be sufficiently evenly distributed. @ocdb is a distribution bot. It's non-profit for those who run it. Delegators get 90% as much as they would if they self-upvoted and the authors get 10%. It's a necessary evil in a system that is not only broken but based on false premises concerning human nature.

Proof-of-Brain can only work when people obey certain rules. That is possible only in a community where there are no anonymous accounts (perhaps pseudonymous but not anonymous) and where the community has the necessary tools to counter bad actors effectively. For Proof-of-Brain to work, SMTs with oracles, or at least a much better distribution than STEEM currently has, are needed. STEEM is a consensus layer token that should be distributed much better than it currently is with Steemit Inc owning over 50% of the stake. Steem could be killed with single shot to the head if, say, the US government wanted to shut it down. They'd only have to arrest the owners of Steemit Inc and force them to give up the master keys to accounts controlled by Steemit Inc. That MUST change.

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It would be nice if there was a way to vote about all this as a community, the entire change also makes little sense to me. The only thing that we can do I guess is giving or removing witnesses votes but I have no clue who stands where. It all feels like you have been saying a conflict of interest that will just be implemented without a clear voting mechanism.

I really hope this all ends well.

vote for witnesses who reject hf21...

HF-20 was so bad, i called for its immediate reversal.
To which was responded, "they can't".

All the pieces in this new hard fork seem reversible...

So, to fight the bid bots, they are going to close one hole, and open another, potentially BIGGER hole.

Where, lets say you are selling votes, and now, you can't offer as much reward to the post, so your price has to go down, but you will get a much bigger curration coming back , so you make more money.

Or basically, instead of having one account for bot bidding, you have two. And we all know how easy it is to have two accounts now with RCs.

In the end, this is an ill conceived hard fork.
It will not do anything they are saying... so what is steemit's real intentions?


And, that search function, i have been replying about that for years now. It is truly what they should have been working on. It is the most important thing bar something that just crashes steem.

It's starting to look like they intend to keep us down.
Losing is the new winning.

Chump said, you are going to "win" so much you are going to get tired of "winning".

Maybe you are correct.

The blockchain doesn't lie.

I wish i was wrong.

I could not agree more. Maybe it’s on balance a good thing but after the HF20 debacle, why are we rushing into an even more radical HF?

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

It looks even worse than new coke moment.
Steemit and witnesses never corrected the wrong changes in the past.
When I see you turn negative is very concerning to me.
But the price of steem will go up. It's usually just opposite than one would expect.
I would like to know which witnesses are supporting this mess or maybe I should just remove all my votes from witnesses as @whatsup did.

That was my thought - I've read about the downvote pool but haven't dove into the HF21 news yet before this, and now I'm thinking, damn, Task can see the positive in everything, if he's worried, that's not a good sign...

How about dealing with the on-boarding issue? As mentioned, perhaps a better way to search out content would be more productive?

Yes, this!
This whole discussion seems to be a problem of too much listening internally, and not enough real interaction with actual new and potential users.

'What do the witnesses think? The whales and the orcas?' Duh, that's one of the easiest questions to answer. You know them and they know you. Those are your early adopters.

But what got you here, isn't what is going to take you forward.

I get it, it's much harder to step into the shoes of people you don't know and find out what they want and need. That's called the Curse of Expertise. But it's not impossible, and it is necessary.

(An open rant inspired by your post, @taskmaster4450 and not exactly directed at you)

Posted using Partiko Android

Wow, thank you for this update. I have to look into it more...but if HF20 is any indication, combined with all the concerns you listed above, this is pretty scary.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I can't believe that they're still beating that horse! No, the system isn't great at the moment, but the communities on here are working with it well and really driving to help as many newcomers as they can. Shouldn't the focus be more on making the site more accessible to people who struggle with it so much, they give up and go back to Facebook where it's all much simpler? I can see this driving another wave of people away, much like HF20 did.

Posted using Partiko Android

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

They do everything they can in order to destroy steem, so that no one is interested in smts anymore... obvious...

Bid bot equilibrium changes from 50/50 alone, and especially more so due to the proposed curve. The upshot is that the leakage to other curators makes things less profitable and there will be those that shift to manual curation because there are incentives to do so. Obviously many will prefer the lazy way, but that was true now anyway, but it's certainly not going to be just $$$ for them.

The goals are pretty clearly stated in the original post by @steemitblog. Shift the relative incentive between self voting and curating. Allow downward curation without penalty. Disincentivize hidden post farms as being the only option once the others are set and active. Anyone that claims to know how everything shifts is lying, the clear answer is "I don't know". But we know what behaviors are being targeted. Mitigating that shifts rewards elsewhere.

And let's be clear too, all shifts have downsides. But you weigh that risk. Everyone has a different place they are at when it comes to this assessment. I personally believe the potential benefits to the platform outweigh these risks.

Posted using Partiko Android

i'd suggest that once you make your mind up if this is a good or bad idea. You ask the witness's which way they intend to vote and if you aren't happy with the answer then remove your witness vote and vote for the witness's that represent your views.

Democracy isn't perfect but in some circumstances it works

Time to worry when taskmaster4450 is feeling negative ;)

In all seriousness, this does seem to have accelerated pretty quickly from a proposal. Good post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Posted using Partiko Android

lmao

!dramatoken
#sbi-skip

They want to destroy the ecosystem... how can these people be so stupid....

Time to worry when taskmaster4450 is feeling negative ;)

I had the same thought!


You've got DRAMA. You are going to be a Whale!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

I am surprised that the witnesses have not asked more questions to the community they are supposed to represent. It may be due to a lack of information which is something that should be clarified so that everyone, not just witnesses know what will change. After HF 20, I am sure that more people are more than willing to change their witness votes from those not doing their job; I know I am.

Posted using Partiko iOS

For steemit inc, witness, bid bots, and community owners, we are less than garbage.

The ability to find content on this blockchain sucks (perhaps that is something that should be addressed first) so how is Mr. Whale going to find Ms. Quality Content Newbie?

This fits in with what I was trying to say here https://steemit.com/steem/@ozphil/a-better-way-then-50-50-reward-splits-and-downvotes

When I voice my concerns I am told that it is just because I am a content creator.

This is hilarious, as I have never once called myself a content creator.

I don't like how fast and panicky it is being done and I also think the motives of those who are yelling the loudest for it, so not have a strong track record of caring about the community.

Do you all remember Hard Fork 20? It was a complete goat f*ck. Witnesses did NOT do their job ensuring that the system was protected. All ability to post was wiped out for most accounts. The sudden shift to Resource Credits left a lot of smaller accounts without the ability to do anything even after things were restored over a week later.

I agree that the transition should have been more smoothly, but the blatant attack on witnesses not doing their job is wrong. Did anybody lose their account? Did anybody lose their assets? Was the blockchain under attack No!

The only thing that happened was that the new system had to find equilibrium - for a week or two. There are far worse things that can happen after an HF.

It's your decision to dwell over the past, instead of moving on and using the energy for more productive tasks, but this won't make Steem any better.

And regarding the question, if this is going to be a coke-moment: I'd say you're creating a lot of unn. FUD. 50/50 is fairer than 75/50. Will it result in more curation? Highly likely. Will it result in people preferring to powering-up instead of powering-down? Also highly likely. And will it result in authors leaving Steem? Maybe. MEOS is by far a much bigger threat IMO. (which is why we need to get things done already, instead of just talking endlessly) But sure free-flying authors that just want to earn, without giving something back and powering up, could leave. But I'd argue that stakeholders leaving because the incentives just aren't there, is far worse for the platform.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)Reveal Comment

I hope you enjoy your payouts made with author rewards.

Was there much risk involved, writing content on Steem?

I can give you the answer right now: absolutely not. Curators aren't just paid for the actual curation, but for their 13 weeks stake lockup as well. If you don't understand that, then I don't know.

  ·  6 years ago (edited)Reveal Comment

I'm really glad you've said this.
Stinc has a horrible track record but because they control the top 20 we will do whatever they decide and those on their dole will bleat about the good of us all.

The solution i see now is to limit influence to 500mv.
We can do that a number of ways, post reward limits, vote power limits, flagging, hard coding, the options abound, but doubling bid bot rake while cutting author rewards is definitely new coke.

So, the question becomes, is stinc, et al, literally that stupid, or are they malicious?
Are they intentionally kneecapping us?
Seems like it to me.
Leading to the question of why they would do that.
There is no stopping the transfer of wealth that is coming.
The worm has turned.
The many are tired of the antics of the few.

Let's hope the 'good' witnesses have a backup plan ready to go.

So far we have seen math from a relative perspective (%). Has anyone bothered to think about in absolute terms - applied to a manually voting minnow account?
Curation rewards have minimal impact on small accounts. Even if it would be doubled.

Why are we giving a cut to curators at all?

FB and Twitter work quite well with just pressing "Like".

How about we declare curation rewards a failed experiment?

Hashtag unpopular opinion

Posted using Partiko Android

Why are we giving a cut to curators at all?

So what incentive there would be for alice to vote for a bob's post about kittens?

FB and Twitter work quite well with just pressing "Like".

And how much you've earned from likes out there? :-)

That's exactly my point.
I'm happy to reward a creator without getting a cut.
Just as it happens on Twitter every day.
Why should I get reimbursed for reading good content? I already got my reward. Good content. And I want more.

Posted using Partiko Android

You are happy to reward a creator without getting a cut.

Good for you, but you are underestimating people's greed.

The key is here:

encouraging more of the behavior that we want, and discouraging the behavior we don't want

It's the distribution that breaks the math.
With a 500mv cap on influence it works very well.

100% agreed

Risky, wrong timing , middle-class killer
Full of maybe's, we will see, I don't know...
Psychological catastrophy already....
Have a nice weekend
Tom

Posted using Partiko Android

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Delete. pointless dribble on my part

It looks like there will be a bigger fork in the future, a fork that split the blockchain into two. Steem and steem classic.

It's too late, they've hidden enough stake in sock puppets to tank any forks.

Definitely some good impressions and food for thought in there. The Tim post was a nice gift too.

I remember new coke. I was in grade school as a real life plankton and recall the excitement of a new taste even though the sweet fizzy goodness of every pop/Soda was a huge treat. I liked coke, I liked new coke, and I liked coke classic when it came back. They are still the largest brand in the world and are no worse for wear because of that blunder. It probably made for awesome publicity and stronger brand awareness really.

Now, I drink beer and the kids don’t get pop except on fridays in the form of a slurpee as a reward for a strong week at school working hard.

What the fuck were we talking about again? Get off my lawn!

Hopefully, HF21 will break Steem and we can all get on with our lives instead of supporting a Massive pump and Dump by idiots in Austin, TX.

Steem Jesta.png

They want to destroy Steem and then buy it all back for 0.1 cents...

How can one be sooooo stupid!!?!

I was told that would be just the start of a discussion and 4 weeks later they have the kill switch armed already!?! Fuck off Steemit inc... I will have to start power down and be dumping... even so I use bidbots I do not hold 70 million steem like others... they will get to decide who gets the inflation and inflate my holdings away.

FUCK OFF STEEMIT INC!

It's already a disgrace

I also agree we should strive to make the life better for smaller accounts. Only then we will have a better retention rate. How about eliminating bots altogether? Like on Whaleshares.

Posted using Partiko Android

Love the New Coke metaphor. I don't know enough to have an opinion here.

I know some people believe New Coke was a next-level marketing scheme, designed to remind people how much they like Coke. Maybe Steemit Inc is playing the long game 😆

This is perfectly explained.

Our goal should be onboarding. The incentives for whales to curate well should be the increasing value of the stake they already hold because it's a more attractive blockchain.

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Great post, I don't like the EIP proposal either. This is my take on the situation...any thoughts?

My biggest concern with this EIP is that blogging and Steemit.com are still the main source to "mine Steem". But we all want to have a thriving SMT and Dapp economy. That is an unfair privilege for Steemit.com and blogging in general compared to all other dapps like Steemhunt, Magic dice or Steemmonsters. IMO the whole POB mechanism should be removed from the Baselayer Steem and should be put in the hands of SMT and communities. Steempower should only be good for voting on witnesses, voting on worker proposals from the foundation and maybe vote on SMT main accounts to allocate some Steem from the reward pool.
When SMT and communities are hete than those admins should have control over the reward curve mechanism and POB they want to implement.
But if we leave Steem with blogging only mining than its going to be an on going issue while we move towards an dapp economy.

Cutting authors payout might not be bad if STEEM goes up in price due to this.

Here's something I read and agree with:

Would you rather earn 100 STEEM worth $10 or 10 STEEM worth $100?

And how do you foresee that cutting the author rewards will cause the price to rise?

Is the price of STEEM depressed because authors are making too much?

It's depressed as much as anyone who look at the trending page ;-)

And how do you foresee that cutting the author rewards will cause the price to rise
Is the price of STEEM depressed because authors are making too much?

What do you suppose the result would be if author rewards were reduced and curation rewards were increased?

Would there be more tokens available for immediate cashing out in order for authors to "get paid for blogging?" Or would there be more tokens being distributed to users who have their STEEM locked up in SP...and receiving those rewards as SP?

Which do you think would have the most likely immediate impact on prices?

So there's that...and then there's also this...

What do you think would incentivize more people to buy STEEM and power it up? The ability to show up and post content without any investment at all, risk-free, and earn rewards for doing so? Or the ability to simply upvote content and earn a percentage of rewards based on how much STEEM they have powered up as SP?

Nobody needs to buy STEEM in order to earn post rewards. But you can directly impact your ROI by purchasing more STEEM, powering it up, and upvoting content.

Which would you rather see more of when it comes to STEEM price action? More people showing up to post and "get paid?" Or more people buying STEEM, powering it up, "getting paid," and rewarding content creators?

I know which one I prefer.

Thanks for that explanation @taskmaster4450, those are very valid points that I have also asked myself.

Posted using Partiko Android

I wasn't around during most of the previous HF's but I have a feeling this is going to be worst than FH20. Do they really think that newcomers will stay here and produce for pennies...?Really? Unless the plan is to "make" people invest and power everything up in order to have some influence here....which I highly doubt anyone will.

Nothing really significant has happened for a long time...except MIRA.

If orcas just keep voting for each other and posting rewards drop then we will lose even more small accounts. I can see that changing the reward distribution has some advantages, but it should not just benefit the big guys.

If we're trying to promote authors to contribute decent content, and promote users to all users to actively curate w/ their SP -- then why can't things be rejigged such that:

  • Increase the portion of inflation that is directed towards SP holders as interest in an effort to:
    • Incentivize whales / orcas / whatever-big-fish to continue holding and acquiring SP;
    • Incentivize smaller users and successful contributors to retain / increase their SP holdings and get a portion of the interest payments;
    • Let those that wish to have passive stake-based investments payoff get their payoff;
  • Remove stake-based voting-values completely, and equalize things across the board so that all users can contribute an equal amount of rShares (positive and negative for up/down-voting);
    • Value can be assigned to content directly proportionally to the number up up/down votes (and maybe comments / replies) as well (or some combination of that, w/ an "engagement" score on comment-replies leading to higher rewards for the author) -- rather than just the whales that you happen to know;
    • This would greatly shake-up bid-bots (though, they could just start sourcing large pools of individuals to cast votes -- but it would be a very different mechanism they're selling that could be out-performed by numbers of users w/ little stake);
    • Assuming that large SP holders are the best (or even good) curators has been proven to be false time and time again;
    • People are worried about bot-army manipulation -- I would reckon that this is, again, something that could be fought with organizations of communities, especially if some level of mass-adoption / user-retention starts to occur when a system that is harder to game is implemented;
    • Perhaps Steemit (or, again, community organizations) can rally together to curate a blockchain-stored (or consensus level) blacklist of known abusers/plagiarisers that are either downvoted, or excluded from the reward-pool altogether. Maybe this is somethign that should be proposed in this upcoming SteemProposalSystem. The mechanics of which, I have no idea -- but certainly something could be figured out.

tl;dr -- the idea of letting large SP holders opinions on what is/isn't good content be weighted higher than others is ridiculous, and modifications to the math behind a stupid and broken system will continue to be stupid and broken (just with slightly different numbers). If Witnesses are interested in trying something to shake things up, then try something that's actually different.

i wrote something similar few hours before but you did it much better. No one answered how will all this changes affect new accounts and accounts that have less than 5000 or 3000 SP.
How long will new acc stay here when they now earn hardly over the dust vote and by new system they will earn almost 50% less?
As you said i don't see whales and orcas roaming around steem looking for people to vote on whole day.
Also supporting people that follow you will go down the drain for people with less than 5000SP.

half of things they mentioned that they hope will change relies on idea that small people will downvote big accounts that pay for votes and upvote themselves. yap i see myself downvoting bernie just so i can ruin my acc.

Maybe the goal is to get steem to around 1000 people, so we can get a consensus on 100 acc that must create content every day and all of us should vote for them, that if a fair 50:50 deal and that is it. and the price, well we all hope that it will follow bitcoin.

I don't see how will this help new and smaller accounts, and no one explained it. All i heard is well with all this steem will get to the moon and then everyone will be happy.

Every account, no matter how small, is going to profit from the increased curation rewards. If they don't have much SP yet, it's an incentive to power it up. What's so difficult to understand about that?

So now we are going to see the smaller accounts' payout affected not only by a reduced reward pool (which is fine, we should fund worker proposals in some manner because they can provide a great deal of value) but we are also taking the measly amount they get and cutting it down significantly.

How are they suppose to make it up? By curating themselves? What is the curation when a vote is worth .002?

So what is the goal here? Is it for smaller accounts to make even less money while larger ones (including bid bots) take home bigger chunks?

Surely we are not going to lean on that manual curation idea. Does anyone think the larger accounts are going to upvote a couple hundred minnows and planktons a week?

Also by your standards i am probably a small acc, i am here for 18 months and never powered down and every steem that i got out (when i was new to see how it works) is back in the acc, also half of my steem is invested. Now with the new curve how much will my vote be worth if i go and look for new users that have few to non votes? will i be able to even jump over the dust vote with 100%? will i do that or vote for people that already have a following and i know will get some votes?

  ·  6 years ago Reveal Comment

Unfortunately, his post is full of "I do not knows" and "we are not sures".

Well...

"The more you know, the more you know you don't know."
- Aristotle

I value @timcliff's (and other parties involved) "I do not knows" and "we are not sures" over many "I knows" and "I'm sures" :-)

so how is Mr. Whale going to find Ms. Quality Content Newbie?

This is the eternal problem. It takes a lot of time to find content newbies and respond, and many of those posts aren't very good. Even talented creators start out kinda sucking. So it's a lot to ask a wealthy person to poke around the bowels of steemit, looking for promising talent.

But the alternative so far (bidbots) is even worse.

Which means I don't know what the answer is

I don't know exactly anything about HF21. But what worries the most to me is if they will test it on a real testnet for at least one month before performing the fork.

Posted using Partiko Android

Well said! I have nothing more to add, except that I completely agree with the points you expressed here.

Need more discussion about this HF21.
I cant arrive to a conclusive opinion on this.

Posted using Partiko iOS

Congratulations @taskmaster4450!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

  • Comments - Ranked 5 with 97 comments

Hi @taskmaster4450!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 6.489 which ranks you at #180 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has dropped 1 places in the last three days (old rank 179).

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 170 contributions, your post is ranked at #9.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • You've built up a nice network.
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Great user engagement! You rock!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

New Coke lol... Hopefully the new formula isn’t too bad. If it is we could all complain, you know complaining gets us so much done 😄😄

Thank you so much for participating in the Partiko Delegation Plan Round 1! We really appreciate your support! As part of the delegation benefits, we just gave you a 3.00% upvote! Together, let’s change the world!

Rich will always get richer and poor... well no one cares about the poor. It is evident from any kind of real life parallel you would draw. People who have the power are always making choices what will benefit them and only them. Why think about the actual pawns? Isn’t that why there are there for? To work harder and try harder to be noticed and rewarded?

Taking away or reducing the incentive of creating varied quality content is not going to be beneficial for anyone. If growth of the platform and not the personal benefits are the aim, then there would be other proposals and other directions. Regular people will just quit and this will become a deserted land of tryhard crypto enthusiasts.

Posted using Partiko iOS

  ·  6 years ago Reveal Comment
  ·  6 years ago Reveal Comment

The longterm effects of HF20 (RC's & co.) were a major success. The implementation wasn't smooth enough, but that's just a bump in the road.