this meme is called unpopular opinion...
Often on Steem the conversation turns to what should we do about abuse. It's a challenging topic because abuse like quality or engaging, abuse is subjective.
However, I think nearly all of us has at least one example of someone we think is over gaming the system. So far we've done a mediocre job at combating spam, bidbot abuse, and misallocation of the reward pool.
I often see the big account holders and witnesses scratching their heads wondering.. "What can we do about it?" It never ceases to amuse me.
One of the most common answers I see when I question them about why they don't flag it. The answer is usually "because I don't get paid to flag" or some play on the idea that flagging equals not earning.
No one seems to consider the cost involved in letting the absue happen. To be blunt it sounds like something a spoiled 13-year-old would say when asked to do the dishes. "Will you pay me?"
No, we aren't going to pay you to clean your own room or take care of your own investment.
Do Resturants get paid to clean? (Hint no one wants to eat in a dirty restaurant)
Do Stores get paid for having security cameras and having security measures? (Theifs will take your profits pretty quickly)
What if you were a farmer raising a flock of chickens to sell the eggs. Each night a fox, wolf or owl ran off with a few of your chickens, but you refused to improve your fences or kill a predator because you weren't paid to do it?
I suspect this farmer would not be in business for long?
Nor the dirty restaurant owner.
I bet the store that doesn't have any security and allows people to shoplift at will, also is a losing operation.
The point is the Restuarant Owner, Farmer, and Store Keeper are motivated by holding value in their business. By taking care of business, their business grows and retains value.
We have people who post one picture with a quote, give zero credit to anyone and use bidbots to upvote them to around $10 just enough to stay off the radar. We have large accounts who just make comments and upvote them. We have one guy with a large stake upvoting himself nearly a hundred percent. We have the gal supporting her friends and family in China...
Maybe you don't think all of those are abuse, and that is fine. If you think any of them are bad for your investment, you should step up and clean up.
I'm glad we have some flag groups, but like curation groups, they tend to focus on one element and I think it is a good start but it would be more decentralized if each user just flagged a little abuse as they see it. Fight abuse in your own size category so you don't get wiped out by a large account.
We are responsible. No one is going to pay us to clean our own room.
That's on US.
What is this costing us? Does anyone consider the lost value?
It's our site, it's our investment and if we want it cleaner, it's our job to clean it up.
Stop by SteemChat to say hi! https://discord.gg/sm47q5
I totally flag. Sometimes to great risk to myself. I try to avoid flagging for personal disagreements though. I flag for a number of reasons.
I flag self upvotes on comments, because fuck that guy. All these people are trying to be heard and voice their oppinion, and this fucker thinks his dumb ass opinion is worth more? Or they're trying to fund their dumb ass project through self voting. No, don't do that. If you can't come up with a way to fund your project, maybe your project isn't worth being funded. Or just pay me and I'll give you a list of ways you can fund your project. It's actually a lot easier to fund projects here than most places. There are plenty of ways to do it.
I also flag standard comment spam, that usual crap of "Nice post.", but I try to avoid flagging if I'm not quite sure if it's really spam. I also flag some bots that do this, if I feel like it. This has gotten me in hot water sometimes. These people often do not have any clue that what they're doing is spam, because not many others are standing up to them.
I guess there's a benefit of no longer caring that I'm an asshole. I've come to accept myself.
I also flag shitty posts that have been upvoted by bid bots. Surprisingly, this has resulted in the least backlash. Though at least once some asshole flagged back all of my recent posts with quite a bit more because I flagged one of his posts. In this way, they make people hesitant to flag others, for fear of repercussions. A simple form of stupid steem terrorism.
I occasionally flag for people spamming steem.chat, because I do like to hang out there, and it's annoying for people to shove their links in your face when we're all trying to succeed here. It wouldn't be so bad if their posts weren't such utter crap. In a few instances, when the posts weren't crap, after admonishing them for spamming, I actually upvoted them or upvoted a few posts, or followed. Not like I want to encourage that type of behavior. I did upvote with a lower percentage than I would normally though.
The rarest flag I might do might be just a standard disagreement on rewards. Sometimes utter shit gets some pretty big rewards. A few bucks in rewards is actually statistically uncommon on here. With all the awesome content out there on Steem getting pennies, we really should occasionally flag a few things that get insane rewards for utterly shit content.
I'm sure I'm missing a type of content I flag for. Yeah, sure, I'm unusual. I flag when so many don't and I've done so since I got here because I actually do kinda believe in the founding principles of here. The ONLY way that Steem works as a social network is if we all work together to ensure that it works. We have to all flag shit content and people going against the way this place is supposed to work, taking out rewards from the blockchain through some self voting scheme, and upvote quality content, and delegate to good projects and follow curation trails.
We also need to come up with ways to possibly encourage this type of behavior that we like. We could do that with upvote projects and coins from Steem Engine or SMT's. They say code is law...well then, if the code isn't working for us, we have to change the code. And we need to get rid of any witnesses that aren't supporting what's good for Steem.
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LOL! I've thought about buying some so I can start to give some out with the bot, but I decided to bide my time a little bit for now. I figured eventually I'll earn enough to use the bot or I'd eventually break down and buy it.
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Well what if I have an opinion that I think your view is uppopular about flagging, is it ok if I Flag this post? I do t think flags should be done like that, but I added one just to see!
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Haha ur opinion is very ambivalent
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Well, it's currently at $11.35. It would actually be totally along the stated guidelines to flag if you thought that his/her opinion was shit and not worth those rewards.
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Just because "code is law" doesn't mean that there can't be guidelines for responsible activity.
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Yes, it is totally fine with me if you flag this post. I actually encourage it. Also, I personally wouldn't flag on opinion. However, some do.
!dramatoken
:) cheers
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Me either. When I see it happen it just really irks me. And one of the several I've observed it was opinions pertaining to being Left/Right. Just ridiculous. imho
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Nice, I did a flag in Steemit for fun, however just upvoted it on Partiko at the same time???I did not realize until now that was even possible! Thanks!🤙🤙
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You have
DRAMA!To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
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Well you can get paid to flag by @steemflagrewards. I worked with them, but it wasn't for the rewards. If we want Steem to be better we have to be put our own greed/needs aside for a bit and do some community action. Around the world millions of people selflessly give their time to make a better world through charities and community groups. Why should Steem be different? There can be too much focus on earning here when other social sites get much more activity without rewards. For those who are not likely to earn much it would be the quality of content and discussion that would make them come back. We are not achieving that.
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While I kinda support the idea of rewarding people for finding content that needs to be flagged...I recently ran into someone that was making money doing that...and they kinda rubbed me the wrong way. We have to be careful in how we reward people for such things, lest we create something that may actually be worse, in some ways, than what we're trying to fight.
I actually flagged the guy, because he was flinging accusations about someone...and upvoting his own comments.
Public stonings are not pretty.
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There is a fine balance. I try to avoid getting nasty when I flag. I do it for the good of Steem
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It really is for the good of Steem. Ignoring a lot of the stuff as we have been doing for a large part is really an embarrassment. Certain activity even goes to a level that might be considered a sort of attack on the infrastructure of Steem.
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Although it's nice for me to make something here it is not currently life-changing. I want to see Steem achieve its potential to change the world. My voting strength is nothing too big, but by working together we can achieve something.
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I think the problem is in the vast majority of cases the flag just wouldn't have the desired effect. That's why most probably feel like flagging is a "waste" of their SP that can alternatively be used to help them earn in the short term at least.
Using one of the examples you stated, someone with a random photo bidbotted up to $10. If I(middle class Steemian, with an account in 1700 something place on the entire platform) flag @ 100% that will diminish that post payout by .25 cents. That is not a strong deterrent. It might be annoying if I did it everyday, but it probably wouldn't stop the behavior.
If the counter to that starts with "If EVERYONE would just..." I'll just say any argument that starts with that probably just doesn't actually work in real life.
I think a possible solution would be something automated. The same way the curation groups work, but for flagging. This could actually create a real deterrent and serve as a decentralization of the application of the flags keeping in mind what you stated that what is considered abuse is subjective.
So there could be multiple accounts made that target a very specific type of abuse and only that abuse, and if you consider that form of abuse worthy, you follow the vote of that account.
This ties into a feature I suggested a little while ago, a "community account" where the control of the account is determined by voting and has a term limit. This would be a good application for an account like this.
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I've had similar ideas myself. But instead of following a trail, we would use our keys to allow specific accounts to flag or upvote with a certain percentage every day or every few days or whatever. If enough people got together and gave even just 1 vote per day, then we could very easily take care of a lot of different types of abuse.
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Ah, so inverse smart steem basically. Yea, that would work too.
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I recognize that, but then it becomes a war of attrition. Instead of giving them flesh wounds sometimes, I say we nuke a few people and send the message the party is over. :)
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We want the same outcome, but what you just said is an "If everybody would just..." position.
Which I just don't have faith in.
Would you have a problem following the vote of an account dedicated to flagging? Since you're so passionate about it, if you made one I'd follow it. Now your .30 is .55, I can just about guarantee you I wouldn't be the only one. If you're already taking the time to flag stuff, why not take the extra firepower?
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Well I'm definitely not saying that that isn't the ideal scenario. Ideally, proof of brain would work exactly as designed and everyone would upvote and downvote according to their own subjective opinions.
Ideally people would let the trending page be for things that are actually trending and use the promoted page for promoted posts.
Ideally there would be no need for curation groups because curation would happen one user at a time, organically, but...
We can clearly see and observe that this is not what is happening. All the features are there for this to happen but it isn't. Currently, things are not working along these lines. Curation groups like curie are good at curating because they developed a system that works for what it does. It's not based on how things are supposed to work, it's based on results.
I guess that's the crux of what I'm saying, and this branches out into my greater feelings about decentralized tech. I think there should be levels of decentralization, in cases where total decentralization doesn't produce the desired results, partially decentralized(a trail in this case) should be attempted.
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Flagging is the most stupid pointless thing on Steem. Its not used to counter abuse. It is used to abuse.
Id guess that 90% of all flags go towards griefing, drama, baiting, vengeance...
Its a truly pointless mechanic. Not because it couldnt have been used for good, its because right now it cant be used for anything.
Its completely useless.
Say you had a 100 dolphins on flag duty. Could you stop Bernie? Haejin? Ftg? The bot industrial complex?
Nah. All you can do is get spammed and flagged yourself.
Not even with 10 million SP could you do something.
im wrong.. You can flag that 12 year old copy pasting an article for those 2 cents.
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I'm part of the 10%.
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I will pay you!
Here is 1k TROLL.
Don't spend it all on meth
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Are you happy with those new flags😊😅😁😂🤣 Sorry lol. Do you flag yourself from your other account? That was my new idea to develop my flagging skills. Let me flag myself with an alt account not to make people sad. Just kidding😘
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I don't care about the flags. :) I think it is FTG.. using that account.
:) I actually thought it was hysterical she/he did this on this post! Too perfect.
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IDK About that accounts psychological state. But both you will get in peace soon. It is about conditions. I wanted to share a quote with you if you can establish a relation between issues and ideas.
Truth always rests with the minority, and the minority is always stronger than the majority, because the minority is generally formed by those who really have an opinion, while the strength of a majority is illusory, formed by the gangs who have no opinion — and who, therefore, in the next instant (when it is evident that the minority is the stronger) assume its opinion… while truth again reverts to a new minority.
Soren Kierkegaard
Idk may be sense nothing to you. You can not understand both of your situations.
Peace for all.
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You know, I can count the times I have flagged on one hand over the last year.
I get really wanted to stay below the radar when it came to the drama here and focus on supporting the positive and constructive folk. Yes I know that is a cop out.
It is unavoidable though and I have received my share of flags for supporting those I choose to flag. It hasn’t impacted me too greatly though and I see it as a right of passage here.
I suppose that those who would make a huge impact flagging would get themselves into a good amount of turmoil when it comes to their stake. Maybe they just ignore the crap in order to not give it the press?
Seems there are a lot less bots spamming now but I expect that to return with the value of steem and it would be good to have a strategy to handle it. Would be nice to know the whales have a strategy as well.
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!dramatoken
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Here's your
DRAMA. Don't spend it all in one place!To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
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It's a coordination problem. Flagging depletes voting power as much as, say, self voting so your argument is wrong. But paying for flagging would no doubt introduce a bag of new problems. There are no easy answers to this problem.
Every designer of a system of incentives and disincentives would benefit from a science of perverse incentives. Exploiting them is where the criminal mind shines. In fact, really smart white collar criminals should be paid to expose loopholes in all such bills where potential ones exist and to expose loopholes in each other's suggestions for improvement. No law should be passed without such analysis. The same applies to our precious Proof-of-Brain mechanisms.
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A flag DOES cost the person who gives it.
Plus it costs the person who does not receive your upvote, because you chose to flag instead.
I get 20% or more back in curation when I upvote.
So -- a $1 upvote would give me back 20 cents (or more if the post was popular)
but when I flag instead, I miss out on that 20 cents PLUS one of the people that I support loses out on $1.
Flagging is expensive. Yes, you can make the argument that it is worth it. But it does cost 2 people, to give out 1 flag. (3 people if you count the person being flagged.)
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It really is a tough decision -- not easy at all.
Some of the people that I upvote are from places like Venezuela, and if I flag instead of upvoting them, they may go without meals! I want to regulary support certain people, and if I get dragged into a flag war, I cannot. I feel that I would be letting people down.
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I see that side of it too. I really do, but I just honestly don't think it would take a lot of everyone chipped in.
It's just an opinion and admittedly an unpopular one.
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Yes, I see your point and you may be right.
But you did over-simplify the situation with your examples.
Under normal circumstances I would report a shoplifter to the store owners ...
but will I still report the shoplifter if I know that it means that I have to pay for 20% of what he stole, and I also know that it means another shopper will not be able to receive that full amount of groceries unless I keep my mouth shut?
... that is a much more complicated question and answer ...
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Exactly. Flagging abuse is an altruistic act. There is no question about it. We can't rely on mostly selfish actors such as most of us to reliably bear the cost of keeping abuse in check while others enjoy the fruits of that activity while paying none of the cost.
Now, if downvotes could earn you as much as upvotes, the abuse potential could be mitigated by creating a rule under which flagging would require a reasonably wide consensus to be effective so as to prevent some people with a large stake from abusing their flagging power. But what about alts and bot armies? It all comes down to Oracles if one wants to go down that route. But how many would want what is effectively KYC on Steem?
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Yes, ^THIS^ Even if I were to consider flagging an important aspect of this platform, this 'domino effect' would stop me.
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All businesses have that same challenge.
If we pay 2 people to clean, we can't pay someone to cook more food. It's still just a cost of doing business.
If I pay for a fence to protect my chickens that is chickens I can't buy...
That's it. It's a cost, if you upgrade the fence, while you will have to do some repairs from time to time, you have handled a big part of the problem. In the future you will be able to produce more eggs.
What if each user considered 5% of their voting power part of paying for a clean house. :)
I'm not arguing as much as trying to offer another way to view it.
How much more would those people you are supporting get if we all weren't supporting the abuse.
The abuse impacts, me and you and those people you are helping as well. :) Just sharing some thoughts
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We may not pay them for flagging but they pay quality posts by flagging! ;)
They shouldnt be so egoistic. Because through flagging shitpostw the steems go back to the reward pool and then to potential quality content.
Conclusion:
Through flagging less scammers and more real steemians get SP, which then can be used to also upvote whales.
Because these scammers and spammers wouldnt upvote a whale anyway.
Works like egoistic altruism.. That said whales could also act egoistic in flagging. Well.. Egoistic altuistic :D
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Right!
Steem should be a reward for good behaviour. Of course it's very subjective.
But up- and downvoting allows us to find consensus :)
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yes of course, we are responsible for our own work. If others won't give a damn about it, then it's for yourselves only. Discipline what makes it more successful. I agree with you but in different ways.lol
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A very good allusion about business to achievement to benefit, it is really necessary to avoid people getting profits in a fraudulent way ..
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Well where is the line drawn? Abuse? Or malicious intent?
Or just being rude dicks?
And I keep throwing votes.
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Love it! Go drama!
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Here's your
DRAMA. Don't spend it all in one place!To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.Downvoting a post can decrease pending rewards and make it less visible. Common reasons:
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I don t have a drama to token to give you 😊👍👏
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I have not flagged any post yet. But i will flag this one. You provocate people to flag each other!😋
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So do you think those flags helped your steemit life? Can i be your flagger? But you won t flag me. if you accept i will flag your every post but i will read them
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So why do not you do your best flaggable post. Both all abuse definations included
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My question is that the flag war on steemit, is it possible to be finally stopped
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Hi, @whatsup!
You just got a 0.35% upvote from SteemPlus!
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