[Vlog] Lets talk about the elephant in the cryptocurrency room.... Taxes

in cryptocurrency •  6 years ago 

Everyone likes to talk about their cryptocurrency of choice going to the moon... what I don't hear mentioned is that un-welcomed passenger that is likely to be hitching a ride on those space voyages, the taxman.

In this morning's blog I talk about taxes as it's been on my mind recently.

Clear as mud


***** Caveat - I'm not a tax adviser nor a financial adviser, I'm just a simple guy trying to make sense of this tax nonsense! *****

In the UK, the tax picture is murky. It's tempting to think this is specific to cryptocurrency however I believe this is the nature of tax law. If taxes were straight-forward we wouldn't need tax advisers and accountants.

The 'tax authorities' are just human beings like me and you and thus are trying to unpick tangled tax webs that have either been created by others or they've created themselves. They aren't 'gods' and will often know less about your activities than you do. So part of the process of paying tax will likely be to educate the tax man as to the nature of your activities. Don't forget this and don't just bow to handing over as much money as you can to avoid going to jail.

The boring stuff



I'm in the process of trying to work out the tax status of my investments in time for when I need to do returns. To my mind there are a number of ways cryptocurrency activity can be framed. Some views are advantageous to cryptocurrency holders other not so.

Here is my broad understanding of the landscape (in the UK):-

  • 0% "It's all gambling!" There is a school of thought that says that cryptocurrency investing is so speculative that it is akin to gambling. Winnings from gambling are not taxed in the UK. Indeed there are some in the UK who are attempting to declare their cryptocurrency gains as gambling winnings. It will be interesting to see how this plays out however I wouldn't hang my hat on the HMRC treating all crypto gains as gambling winnings. You'll still need to frame your argument and present your facts appropriately. This is where getting a good adviser could help. My thoughts are that, eventhough punters don't get taxed through gambling, governments are used to getting their pound of taxes from gambling establishments (casinos, bookmakers etc.), I'd caution against thinking they would wash their hands completely of taking taxes from cryptocurrency activity. However many of us have taken a leap in the dark with this technology. Made losses, sometimes year-on-year (e.g. from 2014 to 2016) without seeking tax relief nor clear tax advice... we've lived (and still live) by the motto that it can all go to zero at any time. If government's are going to tax the good days, are they will to provide tax relief in hard times?

  • 20% It's capital gains baby! If you bought bitcoin for $500, did nothing with it for a few years and sold it for $10,000 (in the UK), you’d most likely be liable for capital gains tax (CGT) unless you can make the ‘gambling’ argument above. What isn’t clear (at least in my mind) is what happens if you didn’t just leave your money in bitcoin. What if you bought some Ethereum, bought and sold some Dash, lost some Litecoin when Mintpal collapsed. Bought some shitcoins that went to zero? What if all your $500 bitcoin purchase has ballooned to $100,000 with some savvy/ lucky investment decisions? Do you simply pay capital gains on the $100k. To what degree do you need an audit trail on your activities in between the $500 going in and the $100k going out so as to not fall foul to any suspicion of money- laundering? To make life easy on everyone there is an argument to apply CGT based on fiat in and fiat out but who know how governments will approach this area, I've yet to get a clear and definitive answer.

  • '40% You're paying yourself, that smells like income' There is some activity around cryptocurrency that is difficult to quantify. For example posting, voting and commenting on Steemit. I have a personal bug-bear when people refer to upvoting themselves as "paying themselves". It also implies that you own a company that you're drawing income from putting you squarely in the realm of income tax liability. When actually you are not paying yourself or anyone else, when you upvote. You are attempting to have a say in how Steem rewards on the Steem blockchain are allocated. Your upvotes can be counteracted by upvotes on other posts and downvotes on your votes. Therefore any rewards allocated to you are subject to the consent (implied or explicit) of the community as a whole. While 'being able to pay yourself' is a nice sales pitch to those trying to make a quick buck, it is inaccurate and worst sell could have adverse tax implications if that's the rhetoric the taxman is being sold.

  • Thresholds/ Relief - Other things to consider are the thresholds and relief. For example, in the UK, CGT has an annual exemption. It may be that the amounts your earning per year are small enough not to be taxed. However it is better to know where you stand upfront than to be hit with a tax bill on money already spent.

Strict liability



If you have ambitions to make life-changing money out of cryptocurrency; you should consider the strings your government attaches to wealth building. Regardless of your personal views on it, tax is a strict liability obligation in most jurisdictions. Evasion often comes with a prison sentence attached.

If you’re anything like me, it’s easy to get carried away with the figures that are fluctuating daily in your crypto portfolio. However that is a gross figure. I’ve yet to see the app that factors in tax and other expenses. Hopefully this post/ vlog will provide some food for thought!

Steem on.

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@nanzo-scoop

I remember talking about this matter at Steemfest with you. big deal indeed. thank you for bringing it up. the burden is on us as individuals, at least in the US, and everyone should pay taxes on profits unless you are in a jurisdiction where you don't need to (e.g. "tax safe heaven").

In the US, you can use the same methodology used to account for stock gains. Hold more than a year, it's long term cap gains. Hold for less you pay short term cap gains. Trading one coin for another creates a taxable event. Keep records and give them to a CPA.

One of the major big picture things I post about is mass adoption for the technology and more generally the new business models it allows. If the pioneers do not pay attention to basic things such as paying taxes, we will have an uphill battle scaling. Such battle will be far more detrimental in the long run than doing the right from the start. For Steemit it is gaining market share on the internet, basically competing with Reddit, Medium, news site, Insta, etc. Most of these huge corporation pay little tax cause they had teams of tax attorneys behind them. Corporations make the money, can hire talent to optimize their corporate structure for the profit of the shareholders. Not problem there at all. Here, since the user is the one getting the revenue, it is up to the user to properly structure themselves. Absent a team of tax counsels, you have to pay taxes. If we go further down this path, one could argue that Steemit is better for the tax man than people using other sites. Thoughts on this anyone?

On the other hand, if content producers using Steemit pay taxes, uncle Sam will likely be happy and not interfere with the growth. remember that, anyone can query the public chain and see who got what and when.

Guys just pay your taxes don’t be stingy …😅👀✌🏼🛫

nobody want to think about taxes tony,, its scary , resteemed

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Great topic..People would just move their money elsewhere. same thing happened with China and people move out to another country. Binance was a chinese company and now they are in Japan (with operations in several other countries).

this is the same with tax avoidance issues. you raise the tax somewhere, corporations would just move their assets elsewhere

I guess tax avoidance is an art... tax evasion is a crime. The question is whether you want to play that game. Particularly if you're acting as an individual rather than a company.

Ah, it's a philosophical distinction in the end.
Evasion is rooted in the intent to deceive, with a willful desire to circumvent the law, irrespective of the intent of the law. The evader cares not what the law says, but only that they not be caught.

Avoidance is based upon a careful analysis of the law, always with an intent to comply. The intent is to be legal, to use the provisions of the law in a clever but compliant manner. There is no deception, no willful desire to circumvent the intent of the law.

Unfortunately, the vagaries of language and the complexities of transactions leads to a fuzzy boundary between avoidance and evasion, where the distinction sometimes turns on intent.

Great post! Taxes are to be implemented this year in the US and is causing a lot of confusion already!

As taxes roll out I can see more people using Privacy coins (XMR.DASH,ZEC etc) to hide gains. <- Do you agree with this statement?

Interesting comment! What's the difference to these coins? In order to get paid out in fiat you still need to be registered on an exchange! So the tax-man got you anyway... Correct me if I'm wrong!

You are correct but how can the government tax you on something they know nothing about?

At least here in the U.S. we are taxed on what we report. No report = no tax .

As far as getting paid:
-One could trade peer to peer. localbitcoins.com is one that comes to mind(no tax)
-Use a "crypto payment card" bitpay ,Uquid is another.
If you do a little digging you can find a few different ways besides using an exchange.

Tax evasion is tax evasion and comes woth severe consequences. It's no different to trying to evade tax using cash in hand.

Just as an aside privacy coins are not about avoid taxes. Hopefully they aren't perceived that way as the point of privacy coins is to be able to pick and choose who we share details of our transactions as we can do off-blockchain (to a certain extent).

Compliments of highimpactflix here on steemit on a reward if you can find the law where it says one must pay taxes. Pretty interesting. Yes, I pay my taxes, doesn't mean I agree. If I don't men with guns will come to my house and throw me in a cage until I do.........sad.

Thank you for your very detailed answer.

I'm in no way encouraging tax evasion but I think with anything there will be misuse. It will be very interesting to see how everything unfolds.

"Privacy" is an endangered species.

Well anything can happen !! We can only assume. What if people start transactions only in coins and no one ever takes out cash ever !! What if crypto currency becomes the only currency? I wonder sometimes what the world would be like without any taxes !! ‍♀️

No one can catch anyone that way.

F5B82735-6017-4EA1-A84A-0E5638228B20.png

I like you, and the way your comments attract my eyes! Allow me to follow you, and please welcome to my blog!

THANks dear 😃

Always welcome!

I'd imagine the nature of the transactions will determine the applicable tax. I don't think that governments are going to abandon taxing people just people they are using crypto. But nice try!

They cant find it out whose money is going where. Isnt it ?thats what the concept of crypto is based on. I will always hope for the best 😃

Only 2 things are certain in this world. Death and Taxes main-qimg-f5448dc7d3f4a8cf18a933acab84262f.png

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Well... i think every well minded citizen ought to pay taxes.. its for the benefit of all..but is the government really using it for oir benefit or theirs

you just educated me on something i never knew @nanzo-scoop you say that you are a Tax Adviser or Financial Adviser..but i think you are gonna make a good one or career out of it.
thanks

I hope not!

It is not paying this exorbitant taxes that bothers me sometime but are we getting to see the value of the money we laboured for. Thanks for sharing this post

Thank you, I actually never thought about the tax side of things. I'll be more aware now when and do a bit of research. I Don't fancy getting a tax bill and end up owing thousands. Thanks for this video. followed and upvoted.

THIS IS WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW MORE ON AS WELL

Im still learning how taxes work. I have no idea how Bitcoin made on signature campaigns would get reported for example, and if the taxes on that are different from the taxes of buying Bitcoin in an exchange and selling it. I also don't know if transactions between BTC and fiat back and forth or even between cryptos have a tax. Everyone says their own version of how things are. Financial advisors are clueless when it comes to Bitcoin. My logical conclusion is to keep holding it and not sell anything, and keep trying to improve your Bitcoin holdings for the future. Im scared that in the future there will be no money to pay for pensions for example, and BTC could be my savior from that, so im just keeping it and hoping it keeps going higher (as it should). I will bother with learning about taxes later, learning about BTC is time consuming enough. I have not done anything illegal to obtain my BTC so im not worried about that. I could prove if needed that I made them legally. You could show them for example that you posted here and got BTC, im not sure exactly how (maybe signing public addresses used to receive payments here for example). This is all too new and I don't want to be the first idiot that gets taken advantage of with their experiments in taxation so it's better to just hold it all for the time being and we'll see.

Well, actually, I am a tax professional, so I have been getting quite a few questions about the tax consequences of crypto transactions. The problem is that things are still in flux and unclear, in the US anyway.

I think they kind of like it that way, because TPTB can bully people into overpaying, just to try to protect themselves. That's a problem when they can adjust and change the rules as they go.

when you turn your ctypto into dollars and send them to a physical bank, you pay the transaction fee. There's your taxing. The government does not control that money if you can always transfer them abroad.

Crypto are supposed to be non-regulated and non-centralized. Why would you pay taxes for something that is not controlled by governments?

@thatanimesnob. Your statment seems to be right in a way. But if crypytos have come to stay. In some way it has to be regulated. That where accountability comes in. You have to answer to the taxman. No one likes the taxman talk less of paying taxes. I was reading someone else's comment on here that you could be tracked by the exchanges you use. That's very true. That's why reputable exchanges verify you before using their exchanges to save their own backs. Your details can also be handed over to the taxman.

I heard about how the U.S. plans I taxing cryptos. Here is a link explaining more.

https://www.ethnews.com/tax-cut-bill-to-require-taxation-of-cryptocurrency-trades-in-us

Great post keep steemin!!!

Looks great!!! You are awesome @Nanzo-scoop my friend DQmdFrxBBT1R2CaAWR3AhX4mrv68Jdr6bUVCnMv9QPGr1tZ.gifDQmPvziZjvqGVmWF87b7gtwyebBQx7gThMdiDN8BRSVHfsS_1680x8400.png

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

good job, keep it up,thanks for sharing with us...
dear sir @nanzo-scoop

Thank you for your educational post. I know that my son @exyle also recently wrote about the taxman. In the Netherlands, cryptocurrency must be declared on the tax return.

Paying your tax at when due is a welcome development. Even in the bible Christ tells us to pay our tax.

Nice post...thanks for the insight!

I've been thinking about this issue lately @nanzo-scoop

I think the government will have to invent new rules to deal with this since it doesn't fall nicely under any current ones.

I made this meme to illustrate what's been on my mind :)
IFCRPTOISFAKEMONEY.jpg

You want another example?
If FIAT has become dept, why do they tax negative numbers?

Awsome post and a good question

Can you now just keep your money in crypto and use one of the Credit cards like TenX to withdraw money?

After all, no one knows how much crypto you really have, obviously this would only work to a set price point you can just go out and start buying mansions and Lambo without the government asked where the hell did you get all that cash from without paying any tax on it.

you could claim it as gambling winning as they are tax-free in the UK is you wanted to be really sneaky about it you could use a TenX credit card to top up a gambling site like Bet365 and then withdraw the cash into your bank as winning, or use their bet365 debit card to withdraw the cash

You may get away with this on smaller amount, but you know what the government are like and you could face a hefty fine and even jail for tax evasion if they think you are on the fly

Great point man, more people should be talking about taxes

great post thanks for the sharing....dear sir @nanzo-scop

You post is really different and very informal.I saw your video.Thanks for sharing this @nanzo-scoop
100% upvote and resteem done sir @nanzo-scoop

There's nothing wrong with paying taxes, it's part of being a contributing member of society and building a better future. What's wrong is making unfair tax rules against crypto. It needs to be done simple and straightforward and not with malicious intent to try and destroy it.

Coinbase does not belong in a country. How can you tax what is not regulated by a government? If someone turns crypto to fiat, then they can count as part of his property when being taxed.

I agree with your all point that you notice. Thanks to you for sharing good article. HAPPY STEEM @nanzo-scoop

If the government can fuck you they will.

Thank you for the knowledge brother! Always thumb up 👍

You open our eyes in a subject that everyone wants to avoid.

awesome vlog

Great topic, i can't understand this, the gov call investing in cryptos gambling, they call it a bubble, they say all this stuff about cryptos, but at the end of the day they want to put their hand on the cookie basket and take one of your cookies for themselves...

If my crypto investments ever amount to anything worthwhile i would rather go live 1 year in another country where cryptos are not taxable than to give money to the government, they don't even know where to invest or where to put their money into, well they know, it's mostly in their own pockets.

"If there's money to be made, governments are going to make it." Man, did you hit it on the head there. lol Collecting taxes, waging war, and corruption, that's what governments are good at.

A very good video. Thanks.

You have a new follower, btw.

Really have set me into thinking... Thanks for the post.

Woooww.. good post

This is exactly what has been on my mind lately - especially since tax-filing time is approaching here in the US and especially since all we can hear here now is "Crypto, crypto, crypto!". It's almost like previously only a few people talked about it, and now it's definitely become a mainstream topic. I'm just kicking back and watching it all, learning while at it :).

hola! I like your post! Thanks for it! Hope to see more of your works.i just upvoted your post hope u will do desame thank uhttps://steemit.com/altcoin/@praize50/katy-perry-showcases-her-crypto-claws

Nice post here. Thanks for sharing this post. Upvoted @nanzo-scoop

From my understanding, capital gains are what crytpo is to be claimed as. Hodl longer less tax (long term capital gains) hodl short more tax (short term capital gains). If you take a loss then it is capital gains loss. Like kind exchange isn't a valuable argument. Most likely any transaction will want to be taxed. ex": If I bought $100 of litecoin and transferred it to exchange for $100 in monero, technically they would call that a taxable event. If monero goes up you would report capital gains when you transfer it out to fiat or a different crypto. For those who trade or have bots this is very tedious because all transactions should be documented. So in theory if you actually documented everything for a year and were an active trader you would have a pretty large booklet to hand an accountant. For Steemit you could probably get away with claiming personal earned income like it is your own business. You are writing, posting, creating content and getting paid. Hopefully clearer outlines would be something in the near future so those who feel like complying can do so in a straightforward manner.

Crypto in Coinbase does not belong in any country, so how can it be taxed?

There are many arguments not to pay and that is anyones choice. But if the tax man decided to make an example of someone well then thats another story.

Talking about taxes, sometimes it all makes my mind go awry, because I see in my country live very few people who want to pay taxes, especially for those who have a lot of wealth. But very few are willing to pay taxes, so the little people never feel the welfare of their lives. Thanks for sharing and hope we can be friends to share

Taxation is theft. This it's called "crypto" hidden. This justbanother way to take down the powers that shouldn't be.

Nice article

Hai sahabat steem
Upvote aku ya

Good post friends.

I've written a post on this on my blog here on Steemit. It's a tricky subject as you allude to.

The gist of my post is that the Governments appear to be taking a "wait and see" approach before formally setting out exact guidelines and policies with the only formal guidance in the UK so far being a broad "catch-all" statement made in 2014 with a "we'll look at each case on its own merits" type of approach. I suspect we'll see some more formal guidance later this year.

In the meantime, as you say "do not bury your head in the sand" on this subject as it may well come and bite in the not too distant future - especially as it's all recorded on the blockchain...

Coins mentioned in post:

CoinPrice (USD)📈 24h📉 7d
BTCBitcoin10991.600$3.64%-13.72%
DASHDash759.842$1.0%-16.96%
ETHEthereum1055.760$4.02%-6.57%
LTCLitecoin175.606$3.11%-14.41%
STEEMSteem5.841$1.25%7.68%

Tax? What's a Tax? vOv

I think the elephant in the room is haejin spamming steemit.

Regarding tax law I wrote an article about this a few months ago with my summary being you only pay tax when you cash out back in to fiat and it would only be capital gains personally I'm cashing out up to my tax allowance each year as I can live off that and feel pretty damn good about not feeding the war machine at the same time.

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@safetony/taxation-and-bitcoin-in-the-uk

this has been on my mind too - in anticipation of the crypto-space NOT going tits up. Some guy on youtube [i think it was suppoman] said his accountant told him that it's CGT in UK if you've held for a year plus but gains on trades with a less than one year hold are subject to income tax. You can, he said, offset losses. I wasn't certain if all this only comes to pass when you go out into fiat ... if not, it would mean that the state has implicitly recognised BTC as currency, or whatever currency you use as the reserve currency to put your gains into. [Could be ETH or perhaps an exchange coin like Binance's own coin. ] I think HMRC have an info paper on this and intend to look when I get a minute. Good post, thanks :)

I totally agree with you. There are a lot of people who got into cryptos as some sort of tax haven and its not that (with the exception of monero from what I hear?). If they sell what they have they definitely need to pay taxes. I suppose that the only alternative is to hold what you have as unrealized gains and prolong having to pay but at some point they're going to be waiting.

Oke freenn

Thanks for the info. As much as the crypto world changes I guess we need to be ready for tax changes too.

Aren't we supposed to evade taxes cause we're decentralized and stuff?

I do feel like this is all kept deliberately confusing, especially here in the UK. But it's something that, if you're going to take things seriously, you really need to think and learn about. A simple mistake or misunderstanding with this sort of thing can end up costing you way too much (and not just financially speaking) down the line. It's always worth knowing and taking the time to make sure you've got yourself covered.

As we all know that Crypto is invented to get rid of these bullshit banking System but the government has great shares in this banking system and they will never allow you to shut their business so now they are applying taxes on the Crypto to keep it away from the middle standard community or you can say from the poor.
they should not put any tax on the crypto.

At the end of the day it all depends where you live. It also depends on the interpretation of the law if you have a good lawyer. Don't get fooled by the a-la-cart advice you see left and right.

I'm glad I live in Germany. I don't understand the laws for trading (not sure they do either!) but for a hodler it's pretty easy: once you hold it for over a year it's tax free. Same for gold and silver.

Government is simply trying to get more money. When stocks where running high and people making +10% a year it was acceptable for the government to collect capital gains but when the 2008-09 stocks collapsed the government still try to get what they can get on taxes. Now crypto is starting to make gains for investors so the government is making new rules to capture more for themselves. Bottom line we are never free. Freedom has a price. I will pay my crypto taxes but am not agreeing with just like income taxes. Thanks.

Ugh this day was coming sooner than I knew . So I have a question . So whatever I make and have to switch into BTC and then into my bank account , all of that HAS to be taxed ??

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

Hey @nanzo-scoop

As a British national, I would love for you to blog/vlog when you find out more on the UK laws.

I was thinking of going with the more 'simplistic' Capital Gains approach, but have also consider setting up a PLC in relation to blogging/vlogging on the Steem Blockchain.

Anything else you uncover i would love to hear!

Cheers!

Edit: After a look online, I found this document which may help muddy the water a bit more!

https://jeangalea.com/bitcoin-crytpocurrencies-tax/

Your post's extremely extraordinary and exceptionally informal.
Thanks a lot @nanzo-scoop

It is very important to know! Thank you for sharing! Have a nice day, friend @nanzo-scoopU5dqunGH1cPqFtksz74rJsYKq7c4B1P_1680x8400.jpg!

FUCK the .GOV SCUMBAGS.
I have ZERO interest in those CREEPS. The U.S. is a FREAKING corporation, google it. Look at the freaking flags in most courtrooms-gold fringed (military court) yup- you have no rights in military court ONLY PRIVILEGES. If you consider yourself a SLAVE, be my guest, but I have no interest in participating / feeding in this nightmare BEAST any longer! PEACE and Love to all.

Along with Taxes more regulations are coming this year. Might be not coming but i want a few. Number of coins have increased tremendously, thats not right and too muchhh confusing also.
I am loving the fluctuations btw. These huge ups and downs in the prices are really that gives crypto , the significance in this real world.

Great post. Resteemed.

Taxes will be tricky this year, as I've found that a lot of people used Shapeshift for a good amount of their transactions, and there is not archive to import into any tax software or website.

Going forward I've been very careful, but some of my major transactions are lost in the ether.

nice video, would you advise some to open up accounts in tax paradises so that they don't have to pay taxes after all the exchanges are already taxing us for commission?

  ·  6 years ago (edited)

This has been on my mind too. I hardly bought any steem for £, so I've mostly earned it, but it's the taxman interested whilst it stays as Steem? I have converted some amounts to £. Is there a threshold on that? Now I have an appreciable amount sitting in here I may have to consult an accountant. I wonder if they will know what to do and can I pay them in Steem?

It's all getting complicated.

Inland revenue posted some guidance

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies/revenue-and-customs-brief-9-2014-bitcoin-and-other-cryptocurrencies

great post, i like tish post, thanks for sharing

  ·  6 years ago Reveal Comment

Taxes is really elephant in the room. Goverment think we are investing in cryptocurrency because we don't want to pay taxes, that's not true at all. People invest in stock market still they pay taxes, then why not cryptocurrency regulations?

Why people seeing only one side of the coin for example cryptocurrencies are used for money laundering, so does fiat currencies why so many restrictions on crypto currencies.

Thank you for this informative piece - as I'm pretty new to the investment/finance world, this piece really helped me understand the different capital gains thresholds and the respective tax rate that you have to pay.

On that note, I wrote a piece about the taxes involved in cryptocurrency and I would really appreciate it if anyone can give it a read and provide me with some feedback! Thank you!

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@stevensteel/how-much-profits-can-you-make-in-crypto-before-having-to-pay-taxes

Screen Shot 2018-01-31 at 3.12.24 PM.png

Definitely some food for thought and yes I agree with you that we need to start thinking about how to frame that conversation. Thanks so much for making this video. I had never really thought about it like that. About time I did!

thanks for sharing!!👍