Here in our community, we talk a lot about #freedom, and #Capitalism holds itself forth to be about Free Market economies. But does a market being FREE necessarily mean it is FAIR? Consider the #discussion of whether free also means FAIR?
Capitalism and Free Markets: Is FREE Trade and FAIR Trade the Same Thing?
7 years ago by denmarkguy (76)
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No, "free" in market doesn't mean "fair". Free is freedom to exchange. Other people get left out, some people win and some people lose in exchanges sometimes. Sometimes it's fair, sometimes it isn't fair, but usually the two exchanges are done because both agree to it and see a fairness to it, otherwise if they saw it as outright unfair, they are less likely to agree to the exchange (not that some don't agree even when it's unfair either ;) )
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actually that's a GOOD POINT!
by your logic (and I agree with it) by definition free markets ARE fair.
because...if you don't like the deal
don't DO IT.
If you do like the deal...then you must think it's fair.
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I tend to get bogged down at the actual "point of exchange" in markets. The point of exchange typically happens at the place where the seller willing to offer the lowest price meets the buyer willing to (at that moment) willing to offer the most. That is where the actual market is happening.
Now, there may be thousands of sellers willing to sell for a higher price, and thousands of buyers willing to buy at a lower price-- but are they much more than spectators? A good example is the trading of any crypto pair. The actual "trading" only happens inside the small circle:
Of course, a lot of this becomes a game of semantics, as well. What is "fair," anyway?
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I suppose it comes down what you consider to be fair. In my opinion a free market is fair as long there is no government or supra-economical consortium controlling trade. Economy today is in some way binary. You win or you don't, there is not in between. To some extent it could even be called the harshest form of Darwinism. And this is the only way economy can guarantee for its self-sustainability. By forcing participants to innovate, safe money where possible and be on the bleeding edge (at least for technology related companies), economy constantly undergoes optimization. Working concepts get adapted into the next generation while failing concepts are left behind. So in this sense, a Free Market in its purest form would also be the fairest market, of course not taking any consequences into consideration here.
But, there is also the other side where millions of people get exploited to increase profits and child labor is increasing annually. While I am not going to further explain this argument, as I am sure, most of you have heard it numerous times, it after all comes down on which side you reside.
This is obviously heavily oversimplified, but these are just my two cents as I personally think that Free Markets are fair, but conditions under which people are forced to work are not fair at all. @denmarkguy
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Thanks for the thoughtful answer @joeljaeschke; it seems to me that what we're really looking at here is that in theory free markets are fair, but there's so much external "noise" that comes along to make things UNfair. Somebody gets a subsidy, someone does not. As you say, working conditions can be horrible because the market tends to "meet" at the lowest possible price of a willing seller and the highest possible price of a willing buyer.
And so (which I also won't get into in detail) we come to the next question of whether a "free market with ground rules" is better than simply "a free market." When you go to a football game, you can do whatever you can think of to win... BUT the game IS controlled by a set of rules everyone is subjects. If it weren't, the winner might be whomever brought along a bazooka and blew away the opposition.
But as you rightfully say, it also depends on which side of the equation you fall: I happen to think people (when left to their own devices) are inherently deceptive, greedy, exploitative, deceptive and as likely to sabotage their opposition as to excel on their own.
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I think Capitalism and having a Democracy is Free but not always Fair.
For example, I think people drown themselves in the romantic ideology that with "self- determination" and "choice" you can do anything and be anything you want. Yes of course this does factor in to it.
But I ve read where researchers who have studied this (contrary to the self determination and choice narrative ) that predisposed genetic markers actually were more of a factor in determining things like Success and Status in Life..
So as they say Life is sometimes just NOT fair
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Well, I'd say you're getting to a part of the topic that might become a slippery slope, simply because there enough material for a dissertation there.
Not only can we say that life isn't necessarily "fair" from a genetic perspective (because we are NOT all "born equal"), but then we also have to factor in our individual perceptions of "fairness" and what things like success mean. For example, I have no interest in some Dude Bob's teleseminar on how to flip real estate so I can buy a mansion and a Lamborghini. His definition of "successful" is meaningless to me. Makes it difficult to define the playing field, let alone the game, itself.
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Free simply means unregulated (or limited in regulation and government intervention).
"Fair" is a whole different story.... if the producers band together and form cartels to dictate prices, is that fair?
What if a select group of buyers could buy all the stock, excluding the masses from access.
What about companies refusing to sell to certain people? Fair?
At the end of the day, markets (and society) benefit from balance.
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Well, that brings up an interesting nuance in definitions, there. "Free" is often taken to mean free of government intervention. But clearly, in most cases, it doesn't mean free of ANY intervention and regulation... so no market is "free" in the sense that it exists completely unencumbered... basically as a giant free-for-all with no rules whatsoever. Which — to me — means that "free" market aren't even a thing.
So we get back to what you are getting at here (I think), namely that we need some sort of balance. Humans are too selfish, greedy and manipulative to work without some form of ground rules system. Without that, it would all just become a giant open brawl and "whoever has the biggest bazooka wins."
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Fair is in the eye of the beholder.
for example.
I'm not handsome, smart, AND rich.
two out of three just isn't fair..
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What?
I was never very good with fractions...
I know you own a yacht, so you must be rich.
My brain hurts...
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Actually I own a boat that was sunk. I've gutted the inside and am slowly rebuilding it.
I'd hardly call it a yacht...not even when I get finished.
Shanty Boat perhaps.
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math is hard...😂😂
(notice I'm speaking colonial now? lol)
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it's good to see that you've joined the modern age.
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Anything with prefix free in modern times is non existent. We have an illusion that we are free but...you can’t do anything following your own will (in moral ralm) and wish if it collides, even a smallest portion, with regulations. So, we are not free, market is not free...and fair, hmmmm...we as human beings have tendencies to be extremely subjective, so even term fair is stretchable.
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If I understand you correctly, I think you're saying that "free" doesn't really exist, in the functional sense-- and I would agree with that.
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Free does not mean fair. Something can be free but not fair.
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I tend to agree. Some say it depends on your definition of "fair," which — in an open marketplace — to me means the best most efficient producer enjoys the most success. But that's seldom the truth.
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Yes, agree.
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