This is something you and I have been discussing for months in private, so without a doubt I agree with what you've said.
We're currently at a point where most SP are claiming back their vote rewards one way or another (bid bots, self votes, delegation market, vote swapping etc). It's not longer a problem of bad actors, if it ever was in the first place. It's a problem of misaligned economic incentives causing individual profit maximization strategy to be harmful to the entire system overall.
I'm guessing many whales are in the very same position as myself: we don't want this to continue. Unfortunately, we also can't trust other large stakeholders to refrain from the allure of profit maximization, so we all protect our own stake by partaking in the very activity that's deteriorating our investment. It's tragedy of the commons in full swing.
The issue isn't that bots or individual actors are malicious or greedy; very few people invest in crypto for altruistic reasons. When designing an economic system, you must assume everyone will attempt to maximize profits. When individual efforts to maximizing profits contribute to the value of the whole, then it's a successful system. But when the optimal profit maximization strategy under your system undermines the value of the whole, then you have a flawed rewards structure, that is to say misaligned economic incentives.
The entire economic system cannot be designed to depend on the selfless sacrifice of moral saints paying a high price in order to just keep in check the perfectly rational actions of individual profit maximizers, which is where we are now and why the battle is failing.
In short, readjust the economic incentives to alter profit maximizing behavior. Under other systems such as superlinear and higher curation for example, profit maximization does not involve direct or indirect self votes and bid botting market have difficulty in price discovery. Of course other alternative economic incentives/curves/curation rates etc can be explored.
It's unfortunate that you were the only person I was able to convince that this was the correct approach, and you weren't able to convince anyone else when you reached out individually either. The scope of the problem is at the level of economic incentives (I believe Linear, despite all its advantages, is the predominant cause of this), not at the level of individual bad actors. And trying to fight it on the level of individual bad actors would likely fail.
Umm...I’ve been critical of HF19 (and 18 and parts of 17) since before they were implemented. All of this was predicted.
I’ve been labeled a troll, TOXIC!, and any number of other names for daring to call out the utter bullshit that was sold to the ignorant community last year. I’ve lost a lot of support for being outspoken about it as well.
Where TF were you guys last year...last fall...this past winter...while myself and others have been pointing all of this crap out and calling for reevaluation and rollbacks/changes? How about supporting witnesses like us (me, @pfunk, @felixxx) who actually know WTF we’re talking about and saw all of this coming?
Lately, I keep seeing people mentioning all of the problems we have and criticizing the “leadership” around here...and then being praised and rewarded for it. (Like your now $40 comment.) Meanwhile, I’ve essentially been blacklisted for saying this same shit for the past year - before it was “cool.”
I hope you guys are finally, actually learning this time. STINC is not doing us any favors. The top witnesses aren’t doing us any favors by rubber-stamping STINC’s HF proposals. People need to wake TF up around here...unless we’ve already accepted that this is a platform created by scammers and for scammers - because that’s precisely where we’re headed.
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Ditto, but with even less rewards.
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Another well written post @kevinwong . I have resteemed it. It is a very thought provoking situation and the feeling that our support is eroding away in favor of bid bot delegation and heavy self voting is very real.
There is no easy solution to this issue. Before you got here @trafalgar we had just as many problems if not worse problems. We had a hand full of god kings ruling us that got here 3 weeks before myself and a lot of other content creators did. There were a lot of catfish / sock puppet accounts soaking up a good chunk of the reward pool.
Personally as frustrating as certain things have been I would take this version of STEEM over the 2016 version all day every day.
If we went back to the old reward curve and my vote went to $0.02 this place would absolutely come unglued. All the content creators who weren't already STEEM rich would be back to being a court jester trying to impress a handful of kings.
The price would totally collapse again because people would see that they could power up even $10,000 and their vote would still be worth basically nothing so they would realize that it is pointless and leave.
I don't have an absolute solution but I think the delegation initiatives to the 3rd party apps like DLive, DTube, Busy are great and maybe some substantial power should be granted to more community building leaders who have been selflessly upvoting others for months / years to keep creators engaged.
Also another remedy to certain situations is having top 40 witnesses agree to address issues like @haejin in accordance to what the community wants. Possibly creating a web app that we can steem connect to and everyone who has a reputation over a certain number can vote on solutions. Each account with over 1000 SP and a Rep of 55 could vote on what to do and the Witnesses would carry out the communities wishes or something of that nature.
Otherwise we end up like the Matrix with no Neo to take care of some of these issues once and for all.
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The current state is okay as well, but it'll certainly tend to cynical voting which slows down the growth of the network. n2 brings the god kings, so we'll go for semi god kings lol.. with the likes of n1.2 or n1.3.. somewhere on the lower side near linear.
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I would choose “Semi-God “King Kongs” Do they actually exist!? 😜
@brianphobos got a valid point!
Please don’t bring me back to “those” days....
I prefer to stay in the close to near linear “underground” and struggle with dragons.
BTW: Yo Mamma is a wise woman @kevinwong at least admit when you become an Arse!
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Those days were shit and am glad the new ones never had those days..or perhaps they should have experienced it to appreciate what they have now.
Semi-god King Kongs are very apt...
Am hopeful that it is out in the open and can be solved..no matter how naive that sounds.
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Exactly!!!
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Was out of engagement in here for a while. How have you been? Your mom? Going to SF3?
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where and when is SF3? I know nothing about it but want to go @immarojas
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Where? we dunno yet..wait for @roelandp
Last year..it was in Lisbon from 31st of Oct to Nov 1st week.
I guarantee ul love it.
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oh well not easy to be one here lol
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My worry is that even as it stands right now oftentimes when a person does the math of how much they would have to power up to get a certain value on their upvote the numbers don't seem amazing. It is more about getting in an accumulating and then when the price spikes that is when the bigger money is made. My worry with even n^1.2 or n^1.3 is that the numbers would be even less enticing at the lower levels for how much a persons vote would be worth which would scare off investors who want to power up anything less than about $100,000 worth.
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Delegating for distribution is a terrible idea, only ass kissers would get rewards.
Bring back the whale experiment and the n(something) and see what that does.
As long as accounts with more than 500mv are allowed to dominate the pool we can forget mass adoption.
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It is true that the system as it stands currently does incentivise bad behaviour. By bad behaviour, I mean actions that both transgress broader moral norms, and are detrimental to the longevity the system itself.
But, it is also true that unethical behaviour in that context can legitimately still be seen as unethical, and therefore attract moral condemnation. The fact that the system incentivises such behaviour does not remove anyone's moral responsibility.
For example, a society that incentivises violence against children is not what I would call a good system. It's also completely coherent to say that individuals committing the violent acts are doing the wrong thing. The only people interested in excuses are cultural relativists and the aggressors themselves. People with a more firm idea of the ethics of that situation, whether they are part of that society or not, will not run such a line of reasoning.
As you correctly observe, a more relevant example is the commons dilemma. Overuse of a common un-owned or collectively owned resource might be incentivised by the context it occurs in. Yes, it is true that a good system would not do this. But it's also true that fairly rational good people (by which I mean minimally good, not 'moral saints', with a bit of common sense) would recognise this and act to change the system and restrain themselves to maintain equilibrium while redesigning the relevant parameters.
I guess you and I differ in that I don't think maximising profit at the ultimate expense of the system that creates it is rational. I agree that the system is flawed and that desirable behaviour that is good for the platform should align with profit maximisation. But none of the people involved in fucking it up, regardless of the size of their stake, get to absolve themselves of moral responsibility.
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all that hard work and I cant seem to vote more then $0.01, and if i come back tomorrow to give you one more cent then i can't give it to another genius... Wha t a dilemma. Yet whales are able to shitvote on shitposts and dishes that make people shit
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And anyone who implies that whales don't fully deserve the right to do so is a communist.
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I'm a communist!
I'm in a community.
Does that now allow me to name them something back?
Something in the realm of anti-social hypocrites. If you see the irony in that...
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No, I definitely agree with your last statement that profit maximization behavior right now is coming at the expense of the collective. Unfortunately, as I stated it's not that a lot of us whales can't see it, we just can't stop or trust other large stakeholders from doing it. It's similar to the prisoner's dilemma, except with so many trustless parties it's too costly to collaborate and we end up where we are. Because while everyone taking part is the worse possible outcome for the collective, not taking part while everyone else is is the worst possible outcome for the individual. I'm well aware that if we all clawed back our own votes it's worse than if we all didn't because the value loss in steem price (either falls or unrealized potential gains) in a rational market will exceed what we get. But it's sort of the game theoretical sub optimal place we're in and seemingly stuck.
I don't agree that prevailing ethical or social norms can be relied on to take precedence in an economic system. Maybe ideally this would be the case, but it's too far fetched. I do suggest what I consider a very realistic and far superior solution in my other reply to this very same post. Thanks for reading my take and voicing your views. I'm interested in seeing what you think of my suggested solution below.
https://steemit.com/funny/@kevinwong/embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me#@trafalgar/re-kevinwong-embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me-20180419t032538535z
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In philosophy (which is my academic background and profession), 'moral saint' is used to denote a hypothetical agent whose every action is as morally good as possible. I don't think people need to be that good to make linear rewards work, but clearly more people would need to be 'better' than they are now (otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation).
Given my interest in non-ideal action-guiding theories, I should know better . Economic systems, systems of governance and government, conceptions of justice; none of these things should be designed for the way you wished people were - you have to design them to cope with the way people actually are.
This isn't an endorsement of some sort of moral determinism (so you are still not off the hook). Humans, and the societies they exist in exhibit and incentivise a range of levels of selfnessness, so I'm not peddling some idea the kind of assholery that steemit rewards is somehow reducible to a pre-theoretic notion of 'human nature'.
Incentives. I ponder John Rawls' theory of justice - he was quite happy to use economic inequality to incentivize desirable behaviour. For example, even though equality is good, inequality in the form of paying surgeons more than average is better. That's because it encourages people to become surgeons - but this ethical advantage only true if there's reasonable equality of opportunity to become a surgeon, and if the benefits of having surgeons are reasonably equitably available to all members of that society (via the notions of income redistribution and universal healthcare that so many people around here find so triggering).
This isn't about progressive taxation or other things that give voluntaryists nightmares. But the principle is the same. We want big investors and whales to exist, but we also want their existence to produce a beneficial effect for smaller users. Actually it's more than 'want' - we need them to produce benefit for smaller stakeholders, otherwise we'll end up right where we are now: heading toward a distinctly uncertain economic future.
So yes, curation does need to be incentivised. I am not sure what exact curve the rewards need to be set at, but I can see the argument for changing it. On top of that, we also need to try and educate and encourage people to not game the system, and for whales live up to the responsibilities of being major stakeholders.
Trouble with all this is that you need to get the witnesses, who are controlled by these large stakeholders, to agree to a change that means these stakeholders either make less money, or have to put more effort in to make the same amount of money. It might not technically be regulatory capture, but IMHO, it's pretty analogous.
One thing that did occur to me would be to change how witness voting worked, then watch the problem solve itself in an organic, 'bottom up', way. We can't have one account = one witness vote, for obvious reasons. And with the ability to use bidbots to quickly raise one's reputation, weighting voting by rep won't help much either. What you could do have the stake-weighted witness voting work in a non-linear way, so that while the ability to choose witnesses grows with stake, it grows less with each additional vest. You could do this with either a log function - tweaked to not allow hordes of tiny account to choose the top witnesses - or maybe a cube root function - something like that, my calculus is pretty rusty. Whatever the case, if witnesses were suddenly more beholden to people in the minnow to dolphin range, then maybe they'd suddenly they would have both the motivation and ability to do more than act in the short term interest of their biggest voters.
Or not - it's just an idea.
So there you go - I agree this needs to be addressed systematically. But I want to be clear on one thing: If a system incentivizes bad actions, this does not magically mean that bad actors have no moral responsibility. For that to be true, it would mean that moral goodness or badness can be purely reduced to what is incentivized or not. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but you sure as hell haven't established that position to my satisfaction. Self-voting, delegating for profit rather than curating, low-effort spam, multi-thousand account voting rings - all of these things are currently incentivized, and all of these things (to a greater or lesser extent) also deserve condemnation.
Unless someone's steemit-assholery is needed to pay the rent or feed their kids, I'm not interested in excuses. I'm glad you are focused on solutions (doubly so, considering how much more influence you have than the average person here). But, incentives or not, you are still responsible for your choices. Don't expect people to let your behaviour pass just because the system rewards it, or 'everyone else is doing it'.
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great stuff @samueldouglas - as a philosopher feeling grumpily that i have to get to grips with the dismal science, steemit is a microcosm where all the problems i'm seeing jump out out at you at high speed. here are my not very coherent thoughts thus far: people can game any system and they will. at the same time, altruism is a force in any economic / cultural system, though as a 'percentage' of the determining force, it can get very low or very high, [taking a historical / anthropological sweep]. misalignment of incentives, so that people maximising their gains by exploiting the incentives provided by a system are also acting in ways inimical to the system's achieving its declared aims or even continuing to exist at all seems the norm with most systems. [e.g. capitalism treats waste as an externality that can be dumped without expense into the envrionment, thereby degrading the conditions that capitalism needs to continue, i.e. life on earth.] the aim here at steemit, i presume, is to provide the conditions for 'good content', of use to people, to be produced and distributed, in a way that rewards content creators so that they can create, and which removes the economic exploitation and ideological dominance of middle men - the publishing industry, tin-pan alley, hollywood, FB etc. Also, it seems that steemit hoped to broaden the base of content providers so that anyone can express themselves in the space. Though this latter isn't directly about getting good content, it can be thought of as a maximising condition for good content to emerge and for new creators to hone their craft etc. It mitigates the elitism that might grow out of the concern for 'good content'. Of course, there has to be the means in place to maintain the infra-structure on which the system sits, and economically, this costs. Questions arising now: what is 'good content' and who is to say? Can a system be optimised just by tweeking parameters? Thoughts: game theory has a very thin idea of culture. Rich, complex culture, including ethics, however, is bound to be an influential vector in any ecosphere/economy and that is where we have room to manouvre past the mechanistic and probably hopeless game of tweeking parameters. [e.g. print more money!] Culture building is a must here IMO. Communism? Hell yes. Not Stalinism, Trotskyism or even Marxism - but the 'naturally occuring communism' without which ordinary human life in communities would not be possible.
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You raise some very good points with the witnesses. In a way they represent our politicians here and like our real world politicians seem just as susceptible to being bribed to do the highest payers bidding. I thought @freebornangel made a good point on another post in suggesting the ability to down vote witnesses we feel have been led astray and no longer have the platform's best interests at heart.
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In traditional politics, large stakeholders normally have to work quite hard to achieve control of politicians and public servants - look at the amount of money lobbyists spend in most democracies! The weighted stake voting system instantly circumvents this inconvenience, making the largest holders of SP instant kingmakers.
My reading of the whitepaper is that this was completely deliberate, as the largest stakeholders are supposed to (a) attract the most scrutiny on their actions and (b) have the best interests of the network at heart. Such beliefs strike me as a little quaint now.
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The n2 and 40 votes a day made selfvoting unattractive.
Stinc changed it to favor scammers over mass adoption, knowingly.
The reason the n2 and 40 votes were there was because in alpha that is how they fixed selfvoting.
If we reverse those forks this is a nonissue, but good luck getting stinc to own its mistake.
Its a dao, dont you know?
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Brilliant work here. Thank you for your ideas and input.
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Thanks for the feedback. I love trying to solve complex problems, and it doesn't get much more complex than this! More importantly, if we can make steemit/steem really work, this should inform approaches to other economic systems.
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We are part of an experiment after all :)
I've just read and resteemed your comedyopenmic post, quality!
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An experiment indeed. It's on those grounds that I'd love to attract a broader diversity of ideological viewpoints to steemit.
Thanks for the resteem & feedback on my comedyopenmic post. It's a strangely effective way to make a point.
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O BOY, and then you manage to top your previous post.
And i can only vote $0.00 cent LOL
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So bring the whale experiment with the n2 and tell the large investors to wait until the ecosystem is large enough to accomodate them.
That 100mv cap can ge raised when 100k dolphins exist to mitigate against the whales sucking it all up.
Exciting the minnows enough to buy in will allow those that want out to exit.
Without a 100mv cap to make small buy ins worthwhile we are subsisting on bigger fools that will run out at some point.
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O BOY, and then you manage to top your previous post.
And i can only vote $0.00 cent LOL
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Story of my life :) Luckily, I'm past caring about the money. I mean, more $ would be nice. And getting paid to write would be fantastic. But as things are, it would be delusional to think I could make a decent amount of money here, even if I did have the 'moral flexibility' to go 'full arsehole'.
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Even if you would try to go full blackhole, then it still may not work.
The already existing full pro blackholes already know all the tricks and just out-hole the new holes.
So then you put in even more energy doing shit that you know that sucks, and don't even enjoy doing it.
Any idea how this works in the steemporn corner? I bet it there works the same under the classic name of the same model. PIMPING..
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@samueldouglas, you are a breath of fresh air. You have my full 100% upvote, at a current value of about $0.01.
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I'll try not to spend it all at once ;) Seriously, thanks - the kind words are worth a lot in their own right.
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Agreed with everything but this
My take on the curve https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/reward-curve-doesn-t-discourage-self-voting
I think what messed up incentives was to reduce votes per day from 40 to 10. This was a very good measure to prevent self voting as self voters needed to put out 4 times more content than now. This is why haejin is posting 10 times a day, put votes back to 40 and he will have to post 4 times more content to maximize self vote.
https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/history-is-a-great-teacher
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That's 4x more crap bloating the blockchain for the same result.
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Well firstly I'm very glad that you agree to some extent to what I said
Namely that this isn't a problem of bad actors - people maxmizing profits under the rules aren't good or bad, they're what you should expect. And it's up to the people who are making the rules to come up with incentives that align with and best promote the behavior they wish to see the most.
Please have a look at my other reply here where I provide a solution:
https://steemit.com/funny/@kevinwong/embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me#@trafalgar/re-kevinwong-embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me-20180419t032538535z
To address your concern I actually think that's exactly what would have with 40 votes. He'll just vote 40 times, not bother with long posts, maybe 5 long posts and 35 comments on all of them. He's not wrong or evil or whatever to do this. Just rational. We can align rational profit maximization interests with beneficial behavior too, please have a look at my reply linked above
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Oh how I want to like you. You're super funny and intelligent. But See your last paragraph:
This is what should convince you you're wrong. Yet you're blind to it. And now you have caused one of the most generous people on steem to act like you.
You Personally Have now made The World a worse place than it would be without your interference.
But you have a great talent, and can make that ^ comment no longer true.
I hope that was your goal, because that's the outcome.
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Everyone should be required to read @idikuci’s statement in bold, very half hour or so. It should be rephrased as a question and put down by the. Voting and Posting Buttons:
“Is what you are about to do going to make the World a worse place than it would be without your interference?”
The problem around here is NOT economics. Profit Maximization is a middle-brow utilitarian ethical system for middle-brow minds.
Except as intellectually vapid as the system is (and it is...people who have moved beyond first-year college ideas know this in an obvious way) the real problem is not about it’s logical failings, but, rather, it’s failings on a higher level of cognition associated with learned empathy, synergizing rationality and reason with controlled puroposeful emotions, and better understanding the complexity of individuals and the civilizations we conceptualize as making them up.
This is a longer (and less well-said) version of Idi’s idea...Avoid doing something that makes the world a worse place than had you done nothing at all.
(If you have any inclination to upvote this comment for some unknown reason, please let me encourage you to upvote @Idikuci’s instead of you haven’t already done so. Or upvote for an artist on here that made something that touched you).
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what are you doing, don't miss out ..... you upvote trafjin 100%, he upvotes you 100% or 1% whichever comes first
go jerk it...come-on baby!
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exactly, @trafalgar. I'm completely in favour of increasing the rewards for curators and thus the incentive to manually curate.
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I agree with you @trafalgar your comment ia very knowledge, i learn many knowledge from your comment .
Nice to see you here, ini steemit
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I mostly don't buy this part. There was a theory that voter-allocated rewards would help grow the investment, and despite its imperfection we can't prove that it hasn't. After, there are many users here, the market cap of Steem is within a factor of 2 of all-time-high (which is pretty close in crypto volatility terms).
However, even if that theory turns out to be false, it doesn't follow that not distributing rewards (instead reclaiming them) will actually deteriorate the investment. There are other paths to growth and even just having a very functional blockchain (no direct transaction fees, 3 second confirmation, etc.) is already worth a lot. How is this not a very competitive offering in the blockchain market, even if all the reward stuff were completely removed?
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Yes, this is just a hard disagreement
No way to know how well or poorly Steem would have done with less imperfections to make a point of comparison
And while I suppose it's not unreasonable to think a fast, inflation based blockchain may do well as a pure currency, I think Steem's competitive edge and ultimate value lies in its ability to attract user numbers through its social media interface. A lot of stuff you can say either way on this matter, but in the end, our gut instincts just don't converge here.
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STEEM is only minimally inflationary long term. The planned inflation rate at 20+ years is 0.9%. While the inflation is nominally supposed to be used to reward users at this point, it could also be viewed as an initial distribution phase (with inflation declining by 1% per year) not unlike Bitcoin's halving schedule.
But can it do that? So far this has not been shown to actually work...
I'm not really a strong partisan on the matter at this point, more being open to different approaches. Let's say the voting-based social rewards just doesn't work out, then what? Curl up and die, or pursue other paths to growth and success?
Anyway, I'm certainly interested in your ideas and others' ideas how to improve the effectiveness of voted rewards. It is just the part about it being a definite choice of that or a deteriorated/failing investment that I don't necessarily accept.
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