I remember when steem started a year ago, the insane inflation, the reward curve, the 2 year lock in period,etc...we've come a long way.
I want to thank the steem developers who have taken all the feedbacks from the community and have done an excellent job to prepare steem for primetime..
However there is still one fundamental problem in the way steem works in my opinion :
Wealthy individuals/organizations can silence anything on the platform and remove monetary rewards from anyone.
Some argue that steemit is censorship free because content cannot be deleted from the blockchain. It is to some extent but there are other ways you can censor content indirectly. One of which is to cut funding, basically the type of censorship youtube is involved in and that we are trying to prevent.
If you search 'censorship steemit' on youtube you will find dozens of users complain that their posts have effectively been demonetized and that steemit is no different from youtube. Censorship is alive and well on steemit, because your rewards havn't yet been taken away from you doesn't mean it isn't happening to others.
For the reasons outlined above I would like to propose a change to the downvote function. Currently it is stake based which means users's downvote power is relative to their steem power.
This makes the whole system very vulnerable and at the mercy of any wealthy entity willing to attack the network.
That's why I think the downvote function should be modified from stake based to consensus based. A post would need to have majority consensus against it for it to be downvoted. This is where reputation, account age,etc...comes in.
Why only use consensus mechanism to downvote and not upvote?
Assume this scenario. Mark Zuckerberg buys 99% of the steem supply with the intend to disrupt and hurt the platform.
He first uses his voting power to allocate himself a huge portion of the reward pool. This would have basically very little effect on steemit, the price of steem would have adjusted accordingly. The community would be using only 1% of the existing tokens but there would be no real disruption on the platform as the dollar value would have increased a lot due to Zuckerberg buying it all up and steemians having to share only 1% of the supply.
After failing at disrupting the platform Zuckerberg attempts a new strategy. Instead of upvoting himself he decides to downvote everybody else on the platform. Now however this creates a real mess, the vast majority of users have stopped earning rewards on the platform, complain about censorship are through the roof, steem users are left helpless,..
What is the lesson here? The lesson is that a rich person/organization willing to attack the network would only be able to do so with the downvote function which is why a consensus mechanism is only required for downvotes.
Another important takeaway is that self voting does not really hurt the platform, unless everyone does it of course. But even then it wouldn't really hurt it per se rather would change its purpose.
There is no bad or good way to use your steem power, some people will be selfish, some rich kids will up vote pokemon stuff all day long, some advertisers will vote up their shitty products,etc.. people will use their steem power in many different way just like in society people earn in many different ways.
Everyone who owns steem power supports the network simply by owning a share in it and they should be able to use it in whatever way without being downvoted. Steem is a self regulating system where users who support steem by powering up rise up and those who don’t lose influence.
The ‘disagreement on reward’ thing is plain stupid, imagine if in society it was normal to beat people up when you disagree with them, that’s effectively what steemit encourages with this.
Only thing with wide consensus such as trolling, pedophelia,offensive content,etc…should be downvoted.
There are many other issues aside from censorship that comes with stake based downvoting.
Scalability
Only a handful of people have the ability to really moderate the site. As the platform grows it will be increasingly difficult for these individuals to moderate, in other words there won’t be enough eye balls to moderate everything.
Trust
We the community need to trust that those with influence are doing a proper job moderating and that they are not biased in their decision. Unfortunately they have proven many times that we can not trust them, if you give someone too much power he is ultimately going to abuse it.
Reputation damage
When a rich individual can ruin your reputation with only a few votes the reputation score becomes meaningless.
Centralisation
Whenever a user downvote content he is losing potential rewards.
This means that only a few people are in the business of moderation. Those people have been delegated whale power in order to moderate the platform. Similar to curation guilds basically. Only a few individuals get to decide what should be down voted, this is very problematic
We need consensus with at least 80-90% majority in order for a post to be down voted.
Steemit proud itself on being a community based website but is it really?
So far the argument I’ve heard against, is that it will reduce the utility of steem power. I’d would argue that it won’t, it may actually give people an extra incentive to buy and give steem power more value.
The proposal is not necessarily to create 1 steemian = 1 downvote but to bake consensus in.
Downvoting power could still be relative to steem power but there would need to be majority consensus before a post can be downvoted.
I was also contemplating the idea of having a moderation board. Basically a list of posts ranked from the most downvoted to the least downvoted ( in number term ) And all users would be able to easily participate in the moderation of the platform.
Anyway let me know how you feel about this.
I upvoted your post even though I disagree with most of it because of the effort you've put into it.
They have to buy steem and lock it for 3 month to be able to do so, so that's what I'd call a feature.
A. Not going to happen even with 25% of supply.
B. That would make us all filthy rich
What's the point of comming up with a scenario where Facebook buys an impossible amount of Steem ?
There is zero violence involved in downvoting, and it happen that exposure is currently linked to reward, So disagreement on what should get attention or not follow the reward.
Consensus on defining trolling ? Consensus on defining offensive content ? Consensus on detecting pedophilia ? Consensus on ect ?
By your new consensus mechanism how many people are needed to watch and confirm said pedophilia to deserve it being censored?
Everyone can equally downvote, I really don't see how any wider consensus method would be better. You should come have a look in https://steemit.chat/channel/steemitabuse to see how minnows and whales work together to fight abuse.
What if instead of Zuck buying 99% of all Steem 99% of people were doing like you and self vote through your scheme with @mindhunter (upvoting empty comments at time 6.5 day).
What are you even talking about? How much of your large stake have you used to moderate?
How is "losing potential rewards" a business ?
I agree reputation on steemit is pretty meaningless.
How on earth do you expect 90% of people/stake on steem to watch said pedophilia or read the BS you are posting before deciding it is trolling and should deserve a downvote?
"Not necessarily..." I mean really ? This is utterly stupid. If you're not aware at @spaminator/steemcleaner we're dealing with bonets with 10k+ accounts.
I feel like you should consider selling you Steem and move onto something else because apart from stealth self upvoting and giving shortsighted and half-assed advice on how to run the platform you seems pretty useless here. (I remember all your previous post from a year ago, seems like it didn't evolve much since then.)
Back stories : https://steemit.com/steemabuse/@mindhunter/a-message-to-newflash-a-sock-puppet-account-of-transisto-stop-downvoting-my-posts-and-acting-like-a-sociopathic-socialist-whale
and lately https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@avilsd/game-of-thrones-usd6m-btc-ransom-from-hbo#@mindhunter/re-transisto-re-avilsd-game-of-thrones-usd6m-btc-ransom-from-hbo-20170819t082312061z
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"Wealthy individuals/organizations can silence anything on the platform and remove monetary rewards from anyone."
@berniesanders, @dan, and others, didn't have to buy any Steem. They mined their stakes. Did you mine yours?
The truth is that the early miners (I'll not use the term preminers, even though the mining occurred before Steemit existed), have the bulk of Steem in existence, and do have the ability to control the content, at will. Bizarre things like @ned slamming @officialfuzzy with 100% downvotes, and @dan downvoting @sweetsssj with low-powered downvotes happening recently, indicate that nefarious things are being done with those mined stakes, and they cost other people money.
I, oddly enough, am not here to get filthy rich, at least not in money. Steemit was formed with a 'golden parachute' mechanism, whereby a Sybil attack is potentiated by exactly the method @snowflake proposes, where simply buying Steem enables control of the witnesses. Since the witnesses control the code, they control the platform.
However, those with substantial holdings of SP will profit from the attack. It will be their Steem that is used to control the platform by the Sybillian(s), and they will haply be filthy rich, and won't care (at least, your comment regarding filthy riches indicates that's all you'll care about. Please do not assume that I am saying I know this. I used the word 'indicate', and really that's what I mean. You appear to have undertaken initiatives to help Steemit, so I could be completely off the rails regarding your personal interest.)
I view Steemit as an opening salvo in the evolution of civilization towards a post market economy and Autarchy. There are forks of Steemit ongoing development as we speak, and if the lure of lucre isn't resisted by Steemit, it will be by another platform, sooner or later.
I like Steemit, and want it to grow into the many possibilities it presents to replace Fakebook, Gargle, and Youtool, just like Myspace was replaced. They are killing themselves by censoring their users, and Steemit can do the same thing. It can make the world a better place in ways we can't even imagine, if only the lure of easy money doesn't get in the way.
I appreciate your candid and substantive answer to @snowflake's post. Despite my insubstantial holdings of SP, I still will vote my appreciation.
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There are forks of Steemit ongoing development as we speak, and if the lure of lucre isn't resisted by Steemit, it will be by another platform, sooner or later.
on that there already one... its called nexus social you may want to jump in now that is early! thank me later!
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I have not heard of nexus social before. Thanks for mentioning it!
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I became a member to check it out but not sure yet what to think about. I'm not too crazy about it, yet. Lots of competition is rising and I hope steemit will survive because it became like another "home" for me.
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Steemit is a singular platform in my experience, and I like it a lot. I simply don't use any others, except Discord - to chat about Steemit =p.
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I'm agree with @mammasitta : even I'm have left the blog and FB for @steemit
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....and boom, it's the SMTs!
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Thanks. But 'unusual effort' ? I put some effort in pretty much all posts I've put out.
This is not going to stop anyone who has money to burn and want to hurt steem. Look at the people spamming the bitcoin network burning thousands of dollars to prove a point.
The scenario works with any amount actually. My point is that anyone buying a large amount of steem to hurt the platform would only be able to do so by down voting content.
Demonetizing content is very violent especially when you are not prepared for it, just look at all the stories on youtube. Some people have even gone homeless because of this.
The content that’s most downvoted is the content that the community found the least acceptable.
This is still up for debate and will depend on the number of steem users.
The problem is not whether all users can downvote or not, it's that wealthy people can censor anything on the platform. You were talking about botnets spamming earlier, those spammers are harmless because they upvote content, wait until bots starts downvoting purely to destroy this platform. A wider consensus method would prevent abuse and make steem more resilient to censorship.
I am not self voting, mindhunter is buying votes from me, exactly like the dozens of similar vote buying scheme on steemit.
I’m not having fun doing this, I would much rather curate content and would earn much more money. Unfortunately I and many other don’t have time to spend hours on this site curating content. Everyone wants to make money though, so far this is the best way I found, if you know of a better way to earn that does not require me to be 24/7 on steemit do let me know.
I don’t think this is relevant to my point
Many users have made a business out of moderation, see @cheetah @steemcleaners and other users that are basically compensated in some form or another.
Not 90% of all steemians of course, a post would require say 90 out of 100 votes against it to be down voted.
A moderation board could also be created to facilitate moderation and encourage user to get involved in it.
1 steemian = 1 down vote would be a no issue if the reputation system was solid, unfortunately that’s not the case today.
Disagreement on a topic is not a reason to be rude and disrespectful. Also my posts have done a lot to open the discussions and improve steem.
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Unusual compared to your previous post length from 6+ months ago.
I'm not saying that someone with lots of money cannot hurt steem, but that your example is irrealist. Steem can defend against all of these attack using downvotes and blacklist on the frontends.
There is no actual monetization until after 7 days thus there is no demonetization.
There is no actual censorship on steem thanks to the blockchain and the sorting via curation form the wisdom of the stake is what gives steem it's value.
No, you would not earn more money from curating content vs what you're doing now even if you were doing it 24/7.
Actually now you will because we have no intention of letting what you're doing happen.
Yes because either you upvote yourself with your stake, curate good content or flag the crap. You either selfishly extract tokens from the blockchain or you make the value of those token be worth more by improving the content or rewarding those who develop the ecosystem.
Even though the steemcleaner post makes money, lately the cost associated with @cheetah are more than the money donnated to the service.
and if anything is left it's not giving anyone involved a 1$/h salary for what they're doing.
Still you want 100 steemian to watch child porn before deciding if it's worth a downvote? More than 1 person is too much and the people doing this job traditionally require expensive psycological support.
Single number reputation is indeed completely flawed, There are multiple kind of reputation that can't be expressed by a number.
Luckily current reputation system has nothing to do with how content get rewarded or is visible.
I think they were mostly useless and they distracted from finding actual solutions.
That's my opinion, Be as insulted as you want by it, snowflake!
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I agree with you on this one @snowflake - I've always found @transisto to be a weak debater, hence he does resort to trolling a lot once you reveal the flaws in his logic.
Your comment is further proof that skepticism, honesty & intelligence > trolling.
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I agree with many things you've said here; there is zero violence in a downvote, your points about "consensus" are on point, but I think you're overlooking an obvious way that nefarious actors can gain access to massive amounts of SP, namely by buying an account straight from the owner.
How many whales do you think would sell their account's private keys for twice the account value? Or, in a more extreme scenario, how many would give their keys under threat to corrupt government agents? If steemit ever gains any mainstream traction, there will be big-moneyed interests that will find ways to influence the narrative any way they can, and the downvote feature is ripe for abuse.
I will not advocate for the removal of the downvote feature until scammers/spammers/plagairists/pedos/etc can be effectively and fairly be dealt with in its absence, but I feel that we're running out of time for a solution, and may be facing several forks until it is finally figured out.
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Amazing @transisto
What if we don't buy steem and remove monetary rewards from anyone
like you said. Thank you has given This information
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""They have to buy steem and lock it for 3 month to be able to do so, so that's what I'd call a feature."" no they dont have to wait 3 months, if thats what u were implying, but i think you know that, BUT its still true, anyone with money can buy up 25% or so of t he available liquid steem, power it up and instantly have influence, but yeah, we just all need to never powerdown and never slel our stakes so a potential bad actor trying to take over the network can only buy up under half the network at any give time, and its just unrealistic to assume soneon will try to take over the network, it wont work, but its great tjoght experiment!
I locve tjis discussion! its a true stemit discusion!
I am angry hearing about dan flagging sweetsssj and other such happenings, very lame to hear, i REALLy want flagging to be changed to consensus from stake, bevcause right now yyeah whats the point of steemit and reputation if any wealthy individual can ruin anyone here? Its not right and we must MUST change the flagging rules before we start getting MILLIONS of users, becaue lets FACE it, WE ar all angels compared to teh REST of the internet...if we think its bad now, imagine when we have allof facebook or all of redit on hre, just imagine the flag wars! imagine trump vs hillary supporters, anti truimpers vs trump people, omg or athists vs christians, omg just imagine! alt right vs antifa, theyll be flagging each other like crazy! asking for money from their family an friends to buy steempower JUST to flag their enemies! LOl and we all get rich off it tho, so yeah hah
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Ahh nice seeing you in these comments! Thanks for that info, I didnt know that about where her delegated steempower came from, has anyone asked sweetsssj why shes getting that much SP delegated from Dan? I am going to guess it has something to do with some deal struck to simply allow her to curate more content since she has told me over steemit chat that she has dedicated more time to curation and less to posting (also to give others a chance to get to front page of trending) and ,
....hmmm.... and yeah i see you used the term ninja mine... :D thats a very interesting phrase hah , is that because people are soar about using the term "pre ,mine"? because it was technically not the regular sort of pre mine that people talk about when usually referring to a "pre mine" ? and also..hmm...I got confuse about this subject because i thought the Witnesses didn't really "mine": steem the way proof of Work Bitcoin and Ethereum mine, so then i thought maybe steem works more like the regular proof of Stake coins.... and then proof of Stake coins the way i understand is they give you more coins when you actually hold a large amount al done automatically by math and consensus and time locks? And steem is Delegated proof of stake, and you do get to earn more steem for simply holding steempower, in a way, when you vote, but hmm i just can't wrap my head around how the people like bernie sanders was able to mine so much steem, and how people bring up how its not fair because we cant mine big stakes like that..... but how did he even do that? with hs witness node?? did he sett up more than usual? I see witnesses today are getting paid like 250 steem a day or so, or at least some of the witnesses who come into the steemspeak.com chat...and i just wonder how that all physical works...now i know it works with consensus and that new coins are not mined proof of work like bitcoin, (i used to believe steem was mined like bitcoin by witnesses and that witnesses were just forced to share some of that mined stem in the reward pool and now i see the new stem is simply created with inflation but only from consensus ....sorry if im repeating myself it helps me to understand it when i write it all down
i just want to ask you, so how did dan for example mine so much steem? Through witness node? Was it because he was the only one mining it so he could "witness" more transactions and make more money being one of the only witnesses? Is that how it worked?
Or is it that the rules had to be changed after people ninja mined so much steem? Well i know we have different power downs and all sorts of rules have changed and been perfected since then but yeah... I Just hope a new elite can rise on steemit and we simply balance the power pout!
I am confident in the ability of the reward Pool to fund the rise of a whole new class of whales who can balance out the unbalanced teempower and spread it out, make steemit more horizontal, which will eventually start happening as more people use the system.... but we will continue to have somewhat of an oligarchy, but I feel we can all get along and use diplomacy to avoid any sort of annoying flag wars in teh future etc,
and yeah i agree about how people with a stake wont bother with irrational downvoting but we may end up with a lot of irrational people on steemit whop may be spoiled and have access to bitcoin and who will buys teempower JUST to push around people they disagree with but then those victims can just make new accounts to solve that problem and bully will be stuck with a bunch of steempower hahah
i cant wait for people to have steempower arms races and see who can buy more steempower to outflag each other etc, it wil just make steem price go up!
aha anyay sorry for long respone just had to get all these questions out that ive jhad fora wghile but anyway ya man i gotta take a napo ive been up a whgile and i cant stop thinking about the future of steemit and crypto! i am excited for the Steemit official app to be relased soon hopefully!
I just see SO much potential in steemit and also Bitcoin excitement is keeping me up!
ok good reading yoru message! hope to talk to you soon! I enjoyed that video of yours u posted recently the 3 hour talk i saw much of it very interesting! Berlin seems like they are very much intoi crypto currency!
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except that the real bernie sanders has nothing to do with him.... also bernie sander has other whales accounts which he is flagging your posts
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Bernie will always be on this platform as he mutates and move through dozens of sock puppet accounts to vent his economic violence - it's the flagging system itself that needs an overhaul!
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I call it the only flaw in the jewel of @dan's crown. Even @dan and @ned have been accused of wielding their SP to cut out the tongue out of others recently. That is PLAINLY WRONG - no matter how much they disagree with them (unless it is plainly endangering someones life of course - but these cases are indeed a rarity.)
I'd hate to see Steemit degrade into a saltmined community where freedom of speech is curtailed by the select few. @ned and @dan's creation deserves better. UV/RS.
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What are you talking about ? There is no actual censorship on steem thanks to the blockchain and the sorting via curation form the wisdom of the stake is what gives steem it's value.
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There is a difference between curation and hateful, spiteful economic violence against others and you know it @transisto! Personal vendettas have no place on Steemit. Period.
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If someone calls me a kebab for no reason, i wouldn't mind wielding "economic violence" against him.
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I heard from Sneak one of the Steemit Inc guys, that there actually is a DMCA copyright takedown system in place which may actually just remove the cointent from showing up at all on steemit.com but whih may still be available to see on busy.org or other steem blockchain explorers, but i have since never heard anythinge lse about this "leak" he told me, and it scared me! i hate to even bring it up and i dont want tobe ruining ur arguent but i feel i should warn you about it and warn the community about it and i hope its just niot going to be enforced, but i believe theres been a few cases of copyright takedowns and peopel being sued for making profit off of posting other peopels photpographs and scarey lawsuits, steemit inc having to follow weird US laws and yeah its stuff that gives me a headache thinking about but I want to believe that the DMCA takedown notice siply flags the content automaticaly LOL I hope thats all it does , but i fear it does remove the content at least rom showing up at all on steemit.coim, but anyway, the way sneak said it, it was heart breaking to me, and i could tell he was Admitting that steemit has a weak spot there, buuuut i was talkingto people in discord steemspeak.com and i got the idea from @inertia and @adept that the copyright DMCA takedown mechanism may not really be activated even with a copyright claim, but hey, i just wanted to bring that up, ... anyway thansk for the upvote on a comment of mine on the Dmania.lol post by @zombee i really appreciate it and hope to read more from you!
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It might be a good idea to have a tab for downvoted content to be reviewed by the community before it is deemed appropriate to do so. Once a certain consensus is reached based on total steem power is reached, the content will then be flagged.
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That's a very good idea actually. I've added you to my voting bot.
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Thanks, and I appreciate you adding me to your curation list. I spend quite a bit of time manually curating content and less time making posts. Its nice to know that when I do make posts they will have a little more kick.
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@snowflake fun-fact: Your post got copy pasted by someone: https://steemit.com/moderation/@kingsteem/the-last-missing-piece-of-the-steem-puzzle-2017818t232124829z
Edit: Upvote for visibility
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Yes, this!
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It is an interesting proposal. I am unsure on some of the implementation details though. For example, how do you define consensus? What would stop someone from Sybil attacking and just creating a whole bunch of accounts, so they could be a 'majority'. Keep in mind, reputation and account age are not going to be valid ways to ensure 'one vote per user'. Also, how do you deal with the fact that a majority of users will not want to be involved in the moderation/downvoting process. I'm interested to hear more. Right now I'm just having a hard time imagining how it will work.
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From @azfix
Seems like a good idea, what's your take on it?
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@snowflake - this downvoting issue is only going to become more economically violent on Zappl, as they've told me they'll also have the flagging feature. Can you imagine the furore over a 210 character tweet (or Zap! as they are called) that takes over $300++?? OUCH!!
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'Me too!' - 6 chars, $60. Think you are still winning buddy!
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. =$10 - Nice! ... (awaits @ausbitbank flag! LOL!)
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ahh you have a flagger. 😐 Don't worry, I'll gladly become the new filter!
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P.S. You might be interested in today's Daily Dose :) https://steemit.com/steemit/@mindhunter/the-steemit-daily-dose-the-steemit-daily-dose-has-been-cancelled-indefinitely-due-to-whale-flagging-a-collectivist-communist
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on my way now!
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No, they are not flaggers. They are censorship basement dwelling manginas - the worst variant of social justice warriors. @craig-grant has already fled the exits because of them (love or hate him!) I feel many will follow suit until the flagging issue is addressed ... until then we live under a collectivist Communist system of control with economic violence as its main weapon.
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Indeed.
I'm still of the opinion you can say what you like, just don't expect it all to be of (financial) worth!
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How about a tab for the review of upvoted, two-worded comments greater than $50? 😘
Respect to you and MH for this one!
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I'm not really opposed to something like that if it were done right, but it would be very difficult to implement in a way that wasn't prone to abuse.
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Hi there @snowflake
Went back in your comments a few days, where things usually settle down and not much happens a day or 3 back etc...
Just wanted to say thanks for the vote tonite, and did not want to seem spammy about it LOL.
I appreciate it a lot.
Have a good day. Or nite.
I am not sure where you are actually LOL.
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Since VP is weighted by SP, all that is required to successfully mount a Sybil attack on Steemit is money, not multiple accounts. In fact, there are those that state that the current monopolization of the rewards pool by a handful of accounts is exactly that: a Sybil attack.
It's hard to remain unconvinced of that, and perhaps only my ignorance of the minutiae of witness voting enables me to continue to hope that Steemit yet might become decentralized. Less than 50 accounts hold the vast majority of SP, however, and the numbers indicate my hopes are but fantasy.
You are quite right about defining consensus. It takes upwards of 10,000 minnow votes to equal one whale vote. This imbalance is enabling botnet raids on the rewards pool, since there aren't enough whales to crush the bots, and minnows have too little VP to do it in groups of reasonable and attainable size.
However, weighting VP with reputation, and precluding means of gaming reputation, would make those bots quite fragile compared to groups, even of new accounts, while also precluding the SEC from acting to regulate Steem as a security.
I recommend doing that. You, I know from previous discussions, disagree, and you're the witness. The price of Steem is not rising commensurate with BCC, for example, despite the use case of Steemit, and I believe it is because of the SP/VP issue.
We'll see, as developments continue, how things shake out.
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This is discussed at great length in the whitepaper. It is basically the design behind Steem. Sure, you can design an entirely new system, or re-design this one, but it is hard to pick apart this one when it is the main premise that the system was founded upon.
Sounds like an interesting idea. I'm not really opposed to exploring it. To actually design/build this though is probably quite complex. You may be underestimating the difficulty of the problem.
It has stayed relatively stable compared to the USD. We are kind of in 'wait' mode right now with regards to the major items in the Roadmap, and some of the other changes that have been discussed. I don't know if expecting to gain a whole lot of value in the short-term is really the right expectation. It would be nice, but for now, not crashing (as we wait for the things that are needed to take the platform mainstream) is good enough for me.
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It is certainly one of them. Others, such as rewards for content creation, and curation, are perhaps more integral to Steemit than VP weighting, in terms of design.
Whether Steemit amends the code weighting VP, again, as it did with HF19, or not, there are other platforms being created that are making changes in how VP is weighted, and taking reputation into account to do it.
You may appreciate that it is not I writing the code =p.
While my investment in Steem is limited to rewards, and I do not intend to spend them for the foreseeable future, I do care about the price, as it drives interest in Steemit, about which I do care a great deal.
I, too, will be happy if the price of Steem doesn't crash, as it will mean that Steemit doesn't. However, I am sure that all of us would be also quite happy to see the price perform as BCC has recently. I am unaware of any advantages BCC has over Steem as a currency, particularly given the potential of a social media platform to drive use of the currency, which BCC doesn't have.
Steem has advantages in transaction speed, lack of fees, and the social media platform driving it's adoption, over other cryptos, and it seems likely to me that the markets are cognizant of those benefits, and also it's flaws.
If we learn anything from the BTC fork, it is that a good forking resulting in twin currencies can be very good for the parent currency. Perhaps Steem might take advantage of this lesson, and spawn.
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Exactly what I came here to say, what do you mean by consensus? I would rather have flagging be based on steempower than a pure number of downvotes. At least with the steempower you are putting the power into the hands of people who invested in Steemit and have some skin in the game. In theory those people should have some motivation to act in the best interest of the platform because its their money on the line if things tank.
I would rather have those people deciding than say noganoo and his bot army being able to decide what posts should be hidden.
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That's why @snowflake believes that reputation should be used. You can have 1000 accounts but the reputation is only 25. You need to work hard to get a higher reputation. Would it be better if bernie decides what posts should be hidden?!
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Except he doesn't say how reputation would be used, just a vague "consensus"...
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Reputation is gameable. I believe that one 100% upvote from a user like blocktrades can take a brand new user from reputation 25 to 55+.
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If reputation can not fullfil its purpose then we have a problem.
I believe reputation on steem needs to be redefined entirely.
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It was really designed with a specific purpose in mind - as a tool to combat spam. If it was going to be used for something like you are proposing, you are correct - it would need to be redesigned. A redesign of the reputation system is a pretty large task in of itself. Not necessarily a bad idea, but it would be a lot of work.
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How does it combat spam?
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By hiding content from users with a negative rep. It isn't perfect at what it does, but it does do a decent job at preventing/discouraging/hiding some of the low level abuse.
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Hello, @snowflake. :) I find your post very interesting. I joined steemit in June 2016 but became active only few month ago. The problem with moderation seems complex to me.
Censorship is definitely an issue. I am a third gender individual assigned female at birth, I am an agnostic and practising occultist, a left-leaning anarchist from a non-English speaking country. In addition, I live in a different country to the one I was born in. It's hard for me to find a common ground with others most of the time. :D
I am hesitant to blog about politics because I know that my views are generally not popular. Nothing I said ever got flagged, but most of my comments on the political subjects were ignored. This discouraged me from becoming more vocal. I refrain from expressing my point of view fearing the negative response. Why sweat at the keyboard writing about politics when I can get rewards from posting about making jam! :D
I do flag people posting inflammatory comments and ones begging for votes, but I do pay notice to how powerful the person is on the platform. Part of me thinks, I should act like a whale and not care. The other side of me thinks 'why harm my chances?'
If there was a downvote consensus like you propose, perhaps I would feel less vulnerable expressing myself. That said, like @timcliff points out, the idea might be hard to implement in a meaningful way.
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This is remarkable work.
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Thank you for your support in moderating. If it can make you feel better, you're way more likely to have your vote ignored by a whale and in case of unfair flag war, you'll find support from other whales through moderation initiatives. Check out the project @freepeach (not very active, but you get the idea).
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... or find that your collectivist whale eventually gets flagged to death! :) e.g. @berniesanders
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Thanks for your response. :) It seems that @freepeach doesn't exist. Is there a typo in the name?
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https://steemit.com/@freezepeach
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Cheers! :)
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@snowflake Thank you for posting your thoughts on STEEMIT. I love STEEMIT and I hope that no one intentionally hurts the STEEM Platform. We in my opinion have a lot of GROWTH ahead of us and I always tell people to sign up and get an account and be active EVERYDAY, even if you don't create content initially make sure you comment and interact with others........
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I have to disagree with your assessment that self votes, collusion, and various botfarming scams do not harm other accounts, so no action is necessary on upvotes.
The white paper envisioned 90% of rewards inuring to ~30% of accounts, yet 99% of rewards inure to ~1% of accounts (per the most recent data I have been able to acquire). This is orders of magnitude more skewed than predicted in the white paper, and strongly influences what people post.
While you're on the right track regarding downvotes, you have not really developed careful definitions of what you mean by consensus, and this leaves readers able to define consensus as what THEY mean by it, preventing actual development of solutions.
Rewards need to be distributed more widely, and demonetization should only be undertaken when the PLATFORM is under attack. If Screwtube only demonetized content for that reason, no one would complain.
Demonetization happens for ANY reason the flagger cares about, or none at all. This should be precluded, if Steemit is to become a platform than does more than just enable the rich to get richer, and the poor to adulate them.
Various means of precluding collusion and concentration of rewards into a handful of accounts also need to happen, or Steem needs to no longer weight VP (my preference). Also, Steem needs to not be a security, or we're going to deal with the SEC, sooner or later, and weighting VP with SP makes Steem a security.
Thanks for raising this issue, and making some good points.
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How does it harm other accounts?
I suggest you read this post to get a different perspective of the one you are used to https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jerrybanfield/top-10-cryptocurrency-questions-and-answers#@someonewhoisme/re-themarinememoirs-re-serggioc-re-lexiconical-re-jerrybanfield-top-10-cryptocurrency-questions-and-answers-20170702t180115037z
You need to think of the reward pool in USD term not in STEEM, because that's how we are going to scale in the future.
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These devices extract value from the pool that would otherwise inure to content creating and curating accounts. What is difficult to understand about that?
Despite your contention that the rewards pool is unlimited over time, it is not unlimited at any given time, but fixed at any given payout moment. Payouts are calculated as a percentage of the pool relative to the VP of the curators.
This is how extractive mechanisms simply profiteering devalue content.
When you sell your VP, you are selling the rewards the white paper states will inure to content creators and curators of that content. You receive payment for delivering a common resource to the payer, which financial impact that extraction would have on your investment is more than covered by the payment you receive. Since the remainder of the beneficiaries of the rewards pool are not so paid, they - the entire rest of the community - lose the value in the rewards pool you sell.
This is financial harm.
You are personally contributing to the perception that Steemit is unfair, and Steem is a 'scamcoin'. You are personally acting so as to inhibit capital gains investors traditionally invest to achieve, by financially manipulating the platform, as warned against in the white paper, and for which the white paper specifically states that it designed downvotes to combat.
Read the white paper, if you care.
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This sounds like communism. How do you define a vote that doesn't excessively use those precious common ressources?
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Votes are purposed to be used to reward content creators for content people find valuable. While you find the payment for your vote valuable, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the post you are upvoting for pay.
The curation reward is designed to provide you an incentive to curate content. Vote buying simply pays better, and is clearly less work, as you never have to read the post you upvote for pay at all.
Since curation is the purpose of votes, such votes for posts you subjectively value according to your personal judgments use those resources as intended.
Since this is a community, with communal resources (the rewards pool is a common resource), there are considerations that are communal in nature. That isn't communism, but is community centered.
My measly $.04 upvote may not be precious to you, as it is clearly a tiny amount of money, but it is what I can share from the rewards pool, and I find that those receiving my votes appreciate them for much more than their financial impact.
Do read the white paper, because it clearly states that financial manipulation of rewards is an existential threat to the platform, in the eyes of the developers.
In England, back in the day, the commons were grazing grounds, and as the herds grazed on those communal grounds increased beyond the carrying capacity of the land, enclosure resulted in ending the commons. A guy with access to fenced off grazing land that was the property of the community that needed it to graze their sheep, who then sold the right to graze sheep on that fenced off parcel to those whose grazing rights were otherwise as limited as their neighbors, would have been hung.
People died in the enclosure movement. Fortunately for us all, Steemit isn't necessary to provide the meat and wool we need to survive, and mere downvotes have been the result of this adventure for you. I reckon you're way ahead of the game, neh?
However, the rewards pool isn't your personal property to sell, any more than the grazing rights to the English commons were back then. That isn't communism. It is honest capitalism, and respecting the rights of others according to the communal nature of the rewards resource.
Just because you can do a thing, does not mean you should do a thing. Steemit is more than money.
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Hey @snowflake, beautifully crafted post. Upvote or downvote, censorship or no censorship, the true issue at hands is the disparity of power amongst streemians. A very small fraction has power to dictate terms on the platform. And it's by design and really don't know if anything can be done to correct it. Or I don't know if it's even an issue.
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Well the vast majority of users on this platform are minnows, who may not have Steemit's best interest at heart, because they are new to the community and just want to make money in most cases.
I'm generalizing the mindset of a minnow, but the recent epidemic of spamming, self upvoting comments, and entitlement that i've been noticing in our community makes me believe my opinion has some merit.
That being said, if everyone is just worried about making money, instead of growing a community, I believe many of the posts that need to get silenced wouldn't receive the required 80-90% consensus.
I like your idea, but I don't think our community is ready for that type of responsibility, but this is a conversation we need to continue to have if this community is ever going to reach it's potential!
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I see your points and also the arguments against them. Its still tough as a minnow without high agenda. Its just tough.
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I am still new but i just realized how steemit works. Those are some changes that need to happen. But still there is a lot of spammers on the website without downvoting power those spammers earn reward and harm the website.
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I read carefully thru this post . It touches a central part of block chain. Iam of the view that centralism is part of human nature!! Just as humans like to work as a group. So some of censoring or filteration or monitoring or controlling is needed . Block chain community is not getting this.I strongley believe at some point this will be realized . Block chain products and solutions based on middle of the road approach will win and such companies will be successful.The purist is likely to loose. Thats the lesson for centuries of human existance
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Thank you for posting your thoughts on STEEMIT
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Yeah it should left to the server, no one should be allowed to hurt your reputation. It may be someone jealous of you..
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I totally agree with you.. powerful steemers can easily attack and destroy the rest with downvote feature
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Very good post. .
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You've got serious skills.
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I like the idea of a consensus. Because you're right, the current system could allow for bigger whales in the future to control the control the whole community if they buy enough steem power. And even now, it's almost best to stay away from conflict so you don't risk being downvoted
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What would you change?
In my opinion, it would be an idea to just lower the reputation and not lower the monetary output of a post - therefore not hiding it or making it invisible.
I have no clue if this would change things to the better - eventually it will make life easier for people who self-upvote in a huge way or abuse the system otherwise. But the censorship-problem would be removed. And this is more important I suppose.
A different approach would be if steemit had two modes. One like its is now. And one where you can "disable flagging" or showing posts like there is now downvoting - So everybody can choose what to see.
Or maybe you should be able to only display flags from people you follow if you wish to do so. Therefore you could kinda manage your personal steemit.
In my opinion the feed and the post section needs way more options for personalisation anyways.
Interested in what you thought of to deal with this pronlem.
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I think you need to be able to lower the monetary output to prevent abuse. Do you feel plagiarized posts should be rewarded? There has to be some mechanism to remove those payouts or else you are just encouraging people to steal content and hope it gets rewarded.
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Maybe you should be able to remove your own upvotes when you see that a posts you upvoted was a plagiat? Or at least not hide posts even if they got downvoted - but sill put away the money?
If everything stays as it is censorship is possible
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You can currently remove your own upvote. Sadly there are lot of people who don't care what they vote on, they just try to maximize their curation rewards. Some people will remove their votes when contacted, but what about the people who aren't around and don't realize what they voted on is stolen? What about the people that just don't care?
If you make it profitable to plagiarize, people will do it.
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But does the $ amount get removed when you remove an upvote?
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Yup, if you remove your vote it removes the $ amount you gave to the post.
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Oh, good to know! But I guess you don't get your voting power back?
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Wonderful post @snowflake ..bless
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these days there's very lil trust in here don't you think?
encouraging the downvote will just make this a grimmer place than it is already becoming ..
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This is an excellent observation and I support your idea 100%!
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You're proposal is good but there are still flaws, like how will you define a consensus and how will reputation play on this scenario? What will stop someone from making multiple accounts? To be honest this is becoming a really big issue but I still can't think of a right way to solve it, in a way that the playing field is leveled. Good proposal nonetheless.
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UPVOTED.
very good.
I would be happy if you like to follow me and give your opinion about my posts.
Thanks.
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I don't know what a good solution is, but I'm constantly running into this personally. Every downvote I cast is a couple fractions of a STEEM of lost curation rewards.
I'd love to be involved in discussions about how to improve this. I think it's a hard problem, probably one without easy answers.
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You got my vote and a resteem :)
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This is a concern I've had from my very first days on steemit. I don't believe there is going to be any solution that can entirely fix it but I think that something like your consensus model is a step in the right direction.
I've even seen posts about censorship being flagged simply because they mentioned censorship was a problem. So it seems there are some people who don't want a fix to this issue.
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Would this help or hurt the new trend of bot farms raping the rewards pool?
There has been a recent push to work together to flag these bots by @Stellabelle and @spaminator and others.
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No one is raping the reward pool.This is a misconception, some people want you to think rewards in the pool are scarce. Everyone can use their steem power as they wish. If these bot farms want to keep doing what they are doing they need to stay powered up thus help increase the value of the reward pool.
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Interesting thx
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@kingsteem basically reworded and copied this post just fyi.
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As a YouTuber who has had a video demonetized by a bot no less. I can tell you it sucks.
The video is here on steemit and it is about so called 'good content'.
As Dan Larimer pointed out. Content is subjective. Which is the point of the video.
I used a parody of Kim Kardasians ass as an example.
Her ass got millions of views! Is that good content?
I was told by the YT bot that it was. Not advertiser friendly?
So her ass is ok but a parody of it isn't.
Your suggestion above will drive even more people away from steemit if they feel they are expected to 'police' the place.
It's supposed to be fun and your idea will suck the fun out of it.
There are plenty of self appointed cops here already. We don't need any more. Especially people who have no clue what steemit is about and have no stake in it's future.
I also upvoted your post because I do believe in freedom of expression. Sometimes even if it is unpalatable.
"The majority are always wrong!"
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Well , I can just say wow , don't really know what to comment , I doubt that it will ever happen , but it's a good thought process in creating something that will make this platform a much better place.
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There are a big comments on your post xD
Nice article thanks for post
Upvoted :)
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Damn, man I was just going to make a post on this 2 days later, with almost exact ideas. Well, I will mention ur post in the source. But I agree with your post fully. I hope it reaches to the ppl, it is indented for!! ;)
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One proposal I have read to mitigate this problem is to make down vote power of an individual be based on amount of SP weighted by reputation score. So high reputation gives someone higher voting power, and wealth affect can be mitigated this way.
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great post @snowflake
nice to meet you..... i follow and vote you
please come to my blog to :)
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snowflake. thanks for that info. @letsgetlost
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I agree that a number of users should have to agree for the downvotes to occur. However, I have been reading more and more posts where people are getting downvoted by a large amount of users. There seems to be cliques that follow their downvote leader, from what I have read and their personal investigations that is...
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This is a very import subject to discuss.
I thank you for taking the time to make these observations and conclusions then share them with us here.
I have been on Steemit for over a year and like it very much. There is no way I could say there is something better....
Yet what you say is true and there is no real good solution I can see. This is just sorta the way the world works. It works this way in real life and works this way on Steemit.
Steemit was created to try and mitigate these real problems of the world, but yet we see we cannot run from the world.
This is why I dedicated my life to creating a new world, a world based upon my ideals and one of which I need not include or interact with anyone who does not support it.
Steemit is not that. So while I like it I have to just focus on what works and do the best I can to contribute and support a better world. People will be the way they are and we can also be that way.
I feel that if we come together with common purpose we can influence the future of this platform to a great deal. I am with you!
We are the power~*~
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This is a great post and I do like the idea of making the down vote equal for everyone. You make a great point. I wish I was here a year ago, but I'm really glad I found this site when I did. On a side note, I really appreciate your recent votes on my posts. I really appreciate it. Thank you!
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But the community of moderators may be needed. Just to see if there are abuses - or unreasonable reductions in rewards, or vice versa, so that one person can not take the entire pool.
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Hey, I couldn't find a way to reach you on the chats, I just wanted to say ''thank you'' for all the support lately, it is greatly appreciated! If you ever read this, thank you so, so much and sorry for spamming :)
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Awesome post. Steemit has covered a long distance and has great future
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Hey @snowflake, thanks for this article and wow the conversation thread below is equally valuable. Will link to your post as you inspired me to think deeper on these steemy things. Thanks :)
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Great article 🤝 And i see you outline some great points and i agree steemit will be soon the leader of social media. I did one post about that today.
Se ya around mate 🤙👊
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Thank you for the information and your worries about steemit.com
I agree Downvote should be removed and hopefully the risk will be eradicated
I love steemit.com that is why I want to invest
Here is a post I just made about my future on Steemit.com
https://steemit.com/steemit/@greatvideos/i-invest-my-time-on-steemit-com-and-i-only-power-up-soon-looking-to-become-a-witness-2017828t21399525z
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Would love to see your interesting idea "consensus based" come to fruition. Hope the devs will attend to it. Btw, appreciate you supporting the Filipino community, from the bottom of my heart I am really thankful for your kindness. Wishing you all the best.
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It is a basic design of life. Some people fail to realize it, but it is what it is.
You can't expect from a rich kid who likes Pokemon to suddenly go and vote on something out of his zone.
I think that moderation is really hard, because this feed on Steemit is so fast that it is visually impossible to get it all done properly - humans are not so fast and we are extremely subjective...
Consensus for downvoting is fine by me, but I agree that there should be some sort of a board.
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WOW! You brought up a really good point about censorship and downvoting. The hypothetical senario with Mark could happen... and what a scary thought. I agree it would be better if t was a majority vote. Give the people power and trust! This is how we continue to grow and build our community in the right direction. Thanks for putting these thoughts in my head to ponder. 😀
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Great job, friend @snowflake! Thank you for your thoughts.I hope for growth potential in Steemit, although lately the rewards have fallen!
Hello to you from the Black Sea!
https://steemit.com/travel/@olga.maslievich/photoshoot-on-the-seafront-or-7-photos-of-my-wonderful-tan-i-arrived-home-after-15-days-of-holidays-on-a-pirate-island
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This is very in-depth analysis. Awesome!
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i totally agree with your points and you gave an great example with the zuckerberg comparison. It is also that some minnows were blaimed for ie selfvoting or spam while whales can do exactly the same while beeing cheered by the community. If you name them, you are in danger to loose your small earnings, thats actually quite tough censorship..
However I am just here to tell you that someone is posting the SAME POST many times to catch your cn upvote. I consider this trolling, if he would have the creativity to post different posts I would not bother...Actually I have some flags on him by myself, since he was and still is trolling at me ( first decided to copy me, than try to get a autoposter for nothing ( to copy me ) and so on, long story..
So I will just give you the info about the same three posts within 2h to try to catch you auto upvote:
@steemerhrn - two times same post within some 80 minutes:
@naughtyhrn - same guy, same post 3rd time within this 80 min
Just for your info, do whatever you want with it !
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Thank You Give Me Vote
I also like, What are you show current
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These are interesting thoughts. I didn't know the upvote and downvote power are basically the same.
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your position looks just, one point to consider. we can't entrust down-voting power to the random masses either.
it would be bad if a bunch of fake-made accounts be able to attack and censor people. I think the best way is to put a cap on down-voting power and a minimum requirement for it to take effect.
and maybe a tag for appealing to the public for being properly judged.
if most of the people are good, all we need to do is giving everyone above a threshold equal power, the good will always triumph.
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Upvoted and Followed! :-)
Interesting. New here and still learning.
I would ReSteem this but the resteem button is missing from this post.
Thanks for sharing! :-)
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Good postt @snowflake
thnx for share thiss.
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