I present this with the explicit purpose of generating a philosophical discussion. I am setting a bounty on this post (see below), and only truly thoughtful and engaging comments will be rewarded.
The following are two real-life cases of patients of mine when I was a professional health practitioner.
Both women described themselves as sufferers of Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA), and had been receiving Chinese Medicine (TCM) treatment for the condition, as well as mainstream Western Medicine (WM).
Sarah — 60yo female
Sarah is a chronic sufferer from RA. She has recently begun a treatment of Actemra , a new drug which is very difficult to get, requiring a rigorous series of attempted treatments before being accepted on the program. This is a drug which costs the Australian taxpayer $30,000 per year, the program lasting indefinitely.
After 3 treatments, the markers in her blood have gone from an "incredibly high level to almost non-existent”. Her specialist Rheumatologist is very pleased, as is she. This drug is considered a breakthrough in the treatment of RA.
I ask her how she feels. She says there is still some stiffness in her hands, which is causing her a little pain, but she attributes that to the new air-conditioned office she is working in, at a desk working at a computer. However, after a few months this increased, although the blood tests continue to show all markers as being at relatively normal levels.
Mary — 90yo female
Mary has suffered from arthritis "all her life" (her words). She began seeing an experienced TCM practitioner a little over ten years ago. She claims, albeit her age, that her arthritis has never been better. She claims to have suffered from extreme pain, swelling, and stiffness considerably when she was younger, but the TCM management has been working incredibly well. She has continued to use the same mainstream WM , the only thing different now is the Acupuncture sessions fortnightly, and daily Chinese herbal medicine.
She has reduced swelling, reversal of the rheumatic nodules on her fingers, less pain, and less stiffness. Pathology tests however show no change in the levels of the markers in her blood.
What is Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA)?
RA is defined as autoimmune disease that causes chronic inflammation of the joints. Typical presentation is pain, stiffness, and swelling of the joints.
Blood tests can also reveal the presence of Rheumatoid Factor (RF) antibodies, ANA antibodies, and higher levels of blood sedimentation rates and and C-Reactive protein. These are not unique to RA, and can also be found in other auto-immune disorders.
The question
Given this definition, who is suffering from arthritis?
On one hand, there is clear objective, quantitative data to show that Sarah doesn't have arthritis; but she still experiences pain, stiffness, and swelling.
On the other hand, we have a woman using natural medicine to reduce and manage pain, stiffness, and swelling, and yet her blood tests reveal the continued presence of the factors which led to her initial diagnosis in the first place.
Sarah truly believes her RA is being managed, even though she still experiences the symptoms; Mary believes her condition is managed because she doesn't experience the symptoms even though according to the medical diagnosis she still suffers from the condition.
My intention is not to suggest one treatment method over another; but to ask the question raised: which of these two have RA?
What, to you, does “sick” mean?
The TCM paradigm does not concern itself with 'diseases'; instead, practitioners seek to determine a “pattern of disharmony” from the signs and symptoms that a patient presents with clinically.
While in WM illness is defined nowadays by the values found in pathology tests (objective data), in TCM the patient’s experience of symptoms (subjective) matters more.
To be eligible for a share of the bounty set on this post, please address the following questions for discussion:
- Which of these two patients has RA?
- When you imagine your health own complaint, how do you characterise it, how do you represent it?
- When you are sick, do you believe you have an illness, or merely suffering from a number of symptoms?
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I think that a medicine that pretends to be scientific cannot rely solely on subjective experience of symptoms. I needs to have a more consistent basis for its conclusions.
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You got a 17.97% upvote from @brupvoter courtesy of @discernente!
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I think that a medicine that pretends to be scientific cannot rely solely on subjective experience of symptoms. I needs to have a more consistent basis for its conclusions.
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I feel that Sarah still has RA for she is still dis -at -ease.
To me it is unimportant if you have the markers or not if you have a complaint you can label it with the name of a disease (or have a diagnosis) It's funny but sometimes when you get a diagnoses it can make things worse for all the concepts you have about that disease will come rushing in.
Personally I don't really want to know if I have some disease but I do like to have some remedies to ease my suffering.
Love this idea to post for creating discussion!
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So after about a year Sarah’s treatment using that ‘new’ drug was stopped by her Rheumatologist, as her symptoms albeit abated at the beginning came back again, as did the markers in blood test results. That medicine was given to her as injections, so it wasn’t because she was lax and didn’t take the medicine, as she was attending her sessions for injection regularly.
As far as I know continues to suffer from this condition.
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How unfortunate that some recover and some continue to suffer!
Give me a natural medicine any day over the pharmaceuticals!
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Thank you @metametheus for creating a post that really makes you contemplate about your perspective, in this case what sickness/illness means to you and how you would characterize it.
For question #1: Which of the patients has RA?
Response: They both do. I know I'm not picking one or the other, but I believe that they both do have the medical condition of Rheumatoid Arthritis. Each patient is different and unique especially in the treatment of their medical ailment. One is being treated with WM and the other is using a combination of WM and TCM. Even with the advancements in medicine through science there is still a lot we don't know. I think that a combination of quantitative and qualitative factors should be considered in the diagnosis of a patient. Both had initially shown the same observable symptoms through subjective and objective observations (stiffness and pain). I would ask was their any deformities in either patient's hands? As well as were there any imaging test done to see the physical change in bone structure or etc. I know that imaging test are not necessarily a definite tool in the prognosis of the medical condition, but it can help with the monitoring of the progression of the condition over time.
Question #2: When you imagine your own health complaint, how do you characterize it, how do you represent it?
Response: When I see my primary care physician (PCP) I tell her about the symptoms I was feeling. For instance most recently, about a 2 weeks ago, I saw my doctor and I told her this is exactly "For the past couple of days I have been experiencing body-aches, fever on and off for a couple of days, feeling very lethargic...super tired, coughing, my throat is sore, I'm producing dark yellow-brown mucus, chills, head & chest congestion, and I have a headache. I've been taking Tylenol for the fevers and OTC DayQuil syrup for the cough and sore throat." I try to be as descriptive to my physician as much as possible when I present to her "how I'm feeling".
Question #3: When you are sick, do you believe you have an illness, or merely suffering from a number of symptoms?
Response: I think it's a combination of the both. For instance, if I have the flu then unfortunately I will be suffering from the symptoms that are associated from that illness. Symptoms are merely a physical expression of how your body is coping or trying to deal with the foreign organism or virus within yourself. Like a fever, it occurs because your body is trying to kill the viruses or bacteria that are sensitive to high temperatures.
Just to put it out there, I'm not a medical professional like a physician, PA, ARNP, EMT, or etc. These are just my personal opinions based on my experience in the medical field as an Administrator in a private medical practice and assisting the doctor when needed over the past decade.
Thanks again @metametheus for the great post :)
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Yes, Mary had the rheumatic nodules on her fingers when she began the TCM treatment, I believe that was about 10 years prior to this point. She was very consistently going for visits fortnightly and took her herbs consistently. At the time when I wrote these notes, there was no visible nodules or deformities on her hands whereas they had been prior to beginning seeing the TCM practitioner.
I should add that Sarah also was receiving TCM treatment from the same practitioner, although was not as consistent in her visits or taking prescribed medicine.
Mary was certainly being looked after by her GP, but was nowhere near as bad requiring a specialist rheumatologist.
The other difference was that I believe Mary was exercising more than Sarah, which is amazing in itself!!!
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From your description, Sarah has been diagnosed as suffering from RA, while Mary 'claims' to have it. So I'd say the former has RA, while the latter might have RA.
The symptoms of stiffness, swelling etc. can just be down to age. I don't think I have arthritis, but I feel stiff in the joints at the age of 51. Lifestyle is a factor as well.
For myself, I've been prescribed asthma medicine as I used to suffer from shrtness of breath and do suffer allergies - cats and grass, mainly. The inhalers have made a difference, but so did banning the cat from the bedroom. I don't consider myself to have asthma, just suffer from asthmatic symptoms occasionally.
People experience symptoms, but they can often be psychological. Doesn't diminish the effect, but there have been countless studies over the years where a placebo has an effect.
I can see acupuncture having an effect on the symptoms described - after all arthritis impacts the nerves to create pain, while acupuncture is also triggering nerve reactions, so there may well be some intermingling of reaction.
Chinese traditional medicine is certainly closer to the scientific method than homeopathy (let's water down medicine until it's undetectable and let the placebo effect kick in) and the doctrine of signatures (a rhino tusk looks vaguely penis-shaped, so it MUST be an aphrodisiac), so I think it's a viable route to take.
BUT, double-blind testing, etc. is a known way of assessing the efficacy of treatment. Check the studies and check the rigour of the studies...
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Both have been diagnosed with RA by WM standards.
Mary:
She doesn’t claim to have it. She has it, confirmed by usual pathology testing. But doesn’t suffer from the symptoms.
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Ah, okay - I read that wrong, then.
Basic points stand though, I think.
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Well according to the studies, that drug should work.
And it did for a while. And then it stopped working.
Which raises a different curiosity for me about the efficacy of studies and reviews. Which is not a discussion I intended to have here, but it has emerged organically so I’m going to go with it...
Preface this by saying that in my professional days used to be knew-deep in reading studies and systematic reviews and may as well lived in the Cochrane Library 🥴.
In studies for drug efficacy, there are always a number who don’t respond to a drug. That doesn’t make the drug useless, nor can it be said that a drug is the answer or magic bullet.
Similarly, a study could show a drug to be efficacious on only a small cohort... in which case it’s deemed as not effective (and most likely not profitable... and that’s a whole different conversation there).
But what about that 2% (or whatever) that did find it effective?
I guess in the CM paradigm, the language is clear and specific: this Medicine is effective for these people, that Medicine is effective for those people. It is presupposed that there is no single solution for a diverse range of clinical manifestations.
While we can remove ‘confounders’ in the laboratory, we can never really remove them from real life. So why don’t we develop a science around the Uncertainty Principle (in health/medicine at least; I think other branches of Science are onto it from what I can tell).
But I guess this is where the ‘profitability’ discussion enters stage right....
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Which of these two patients has RA
I think that both of them still have RA. It might be in different forms and it is difficult to say that RA was completely eliminated from their bodies or can be eliminate at all.
When you imagine your health own complaint, how do you characterise it, how do you represent it?
When doing a health complain, I only talk about what I feel and not what others think or suggest or have experienced
When you are sick, do you believe you have an illness, or merely suffering from a number of symptoms?
To me an illness is just fever and headache. Any other thing, I take it to be a symptom.
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Yeah, not sure you're quite understanding the spirit of the questions I posed.... I was hoping for you to be able to enter into a discussion about this topic.
I kind fo agree with you about these two cases... they do both have it, and yet I would also say they don't have it also. In Mary's case, I genuinely don't believe she "has" RA, nor "suffers" from it... I think in her case she was very realistic and pragmatic about it, always seeking to find something that helped her manage her symptoms. And from what I could tell, this led to a very good quality of life. I know that she is still alive, and still very healthy and will be turning 99 this year!!! Amazing.
Sarah's case on the other hand is curious, because she is 'cured' seemingly.... but then still suffers the symptoms. I think I wrote in another comment that after a few months, the "new wonder drug" also lost its efficacy.... so her body was kind of saying, "no I want this to be normal".... Weird.
So maybe, deep down her unconscious belief is that she needs to have the suffering.... for what purpose though?! What does she get from the pain and swelling that is more important than the relief of the pain ad swelling? It continues to fascinate me to this day.
Thanks for the comment. 😊🙏🏽☯️
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I believe neither suffers from RA actually. They are like sets and subsets we learned about in Grade 3 math. An overlapping set of symptoms from two differing circles is labelled as RA. At a given point in time, they both APPEAR to have the same condition.
Personally I try NOT to attrubute a name to a set of symptoms, nor to ever use the word "my" in relation to them. I view them as transient, passing symptoms to be managed, while the health and physical integrity of the WHOLE BEING are regained.
I choose to consider myself temporarily out of balance, rather than owning or claiming any pre-packaged set of symptoms.
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They have the same set of symptoms, and the same blood test results leading to the same diagnosis by WM doctors and Rheumatologists.
They both get regular blood tests and have regular visits to WM.
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I did read and understand that 😉 just dont agree with this particular idea of diagnosis no matter who does it. 😊
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And in many ways, that’s the principle behind Chinese Medicine, giving rise to the aphorism “same disease different treatment; same treatment different disease” (or words to that effect).
I found this a curious case (well, two cases)... mindset was definitely a factor. And I should also add that they both had Chinese Medicine, and it seemed to be effective in only one case.
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@metametheus, I think in perspective of Spirituality. Some people take the help of Advanced Treatment and some take Natural Treatment and in my opinion in both of the cases sickness stays as cured and uncured. No matter where we take the treatment, can we see someone's faith, belief, focus and thoughtful energy helps to come out of sickness works with the combination of treatment? In my opinion there are lots of UNKNOWN aspects behind the healing of Human Beings. Stay blessed.
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I would’ve thought belief was playing a role here... except that Sarah was adamant that this “new medicine” was going to be the answer to her problems.
She believes that nothing else she had tried worked, and she truly believed what her specialist told her about this ‘new drug’.
I’m wondering whether her belief in this instance was only on an intellectual level, and not embodied.
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But i think that there are many cases where people say that belief cured them. Keep up and stay blessed.
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Totally.
I ‘believe’ (😉) that one’s mindset plays a role in healing, particularly how well an intervention works or not. The work being done by Ted Kaptchuk and Harvard Medical School researching the effects of placebos is posing some very interesting questions for further investigation.
One such study they did for example suggests that placebos will work even when patients know it’s a placebo! 😱
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I've heard about the Placebos for the first time. Thank you.
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Which of these two patients has RA?
Maybe both and maybe neither. It's worth noting that, when I got Lyme disease and did research into it, I discovered that chronic Lyme, along with many other diseases, present symptoms so similar to RA, that they are often misdiagnosed as RA.
I don't understand this question.
Could you rephrase it?
Um, I guess it depends on what's useful. When, for example, I had the symptoms of Lyme disease, and was able to show the bullseye rash to doctors and say, "I think I have Lyme disease" that was useful, because catching Lyme early with antibiotics is the best way to prevent chronic Lyme. But when my back hurt, it wasn't useful to the physical therapist to figure out what had first caused the pain. We couldn't pinpoint it for sure anyways. Better to treat the symptoms so that I could get better. Of course if we later find out there's something deeper wrong, I'll wish we had identified the illness, but that seems unlikely.
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Lyme Disease.... now there's a fascinating topic. I'd love it if you could share more about your experiences with it... what did you do for it, how have you fared subsequently, etc.
And yes, you're right about that... both weren't diagnosed with that, however Lyme's is also nothing not many doctors know about.
My interest in Lyme's was always courtesy of a CM Herbalist scholar named Heiner Fruehof, who has been doing a lot of work with it over in the US. He's researched a lot of old Chinese texts concerning Gu-zheng, which is described in detail in the Yellow Emperor's Classic. So even though this condition appears to be referring to gut parasites, the treatment formulas for it appear to work well on Lyme Disease patients!!!!
I got really interested in Gu-syndrome because I was doing a lot of work with people with various gut/digestive-related disorders, and nothing was working until we started approaching it as this 'parasitic' invasion. Started to look into what Naturopaths and nutritionists were doing in this field, and started to see some parallels, so I began to adapt the TCM stuff with known 'western' herbal interventions.... and voila! all of a sudden we had success. We then started getting patients to get stool sample testing, and sure enough: parasite invasion. Then we started to look at people coming in complaining of 'arthritic' conditions but were not getting the Arthritis diagnosis.... and sure enough stool samples showed the usual suspects (mostly Blastocystis hominis, sometimes Dientamoeba fragilis). I put together a tincture, and it was awesome!!! Killing the parasites!!
So yeah..... totally hear you on the Lyme/ arthritis connection!!
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I got antibiotics for it. I've subsequently fared well. No Lyme nor Lyme symptoms. When caught early, there's usually a good prognosis. It's when people don't know they caught it that it can turn into chronic Lyme.
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Thank you so much for being an awesome Partiko user! You have received a 7.00% upvote from us for your 1518 Partiko Points! Together, let's change the world!
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Im someware in the middle but they are winning but I still think we haave some time left if you like abstract art check me out @chupapic hope you like my art I followed and upvoted yeeah great posts keep up the good work
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Iii say they alll sick they yust don"t know it yet hahah si or not sick I say sickness don"t exist they sickeen us haha what do you think aboutmy anwser ;)
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Hello!
This post has been manually curated, resteemed
and gifted with some virtually delicious cake
from the @helpiecake curation team!
Much love to you from all of us at @helpie!
Keep up the great work!
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Thanks Helpi-Cake.
Mmmmmmmmm...... 🤤
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I have never been sick in 8 years
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That's great!! Congrats on that achievement.
So, what's your secret? Would you care to engage and enter into a conversation about it?
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Lift heavy, move a lot, and eat meat, avoid medicines, that's it
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Hi @metametheus!
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I believe they both have arthritis . The 90 yr. old is using mind over matter and helping keep it under control.
Jesus or another great philosopher said.” Physican heal thou self.” I like to use as much mind control as I can to keep healthy but when illness strikes I wonder about food I have eaten and contact with others that carry flu germs.
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